Why Genuine Relationship Fuels Christian Growth w/ Carley Marcouillier

What if the fastest path to transformation is slowing down for connection? We sit with attachment-focused therapist Carley Marcouillier to explore how Christian growth and lasting psychological change flow from safety, presence, and honest relationship—first with God, then with ourselves, and finally with others. Instead of chasing quick fixes, Carley invites a new agenda: let connection lead and let change follow.

We unpack the core moves of attachment and IFS: viewing symptoms as messengers, not enemies; trading pressure for inspiration by noticing everyday “glimmers” that expand our capacity; and practicing pacing so the nervous system can settle and receive care. Carley offers a practical, faith-rooted lens for balancing community and solitude, using the question when rather than what to discern wise action. We talk about the challenge of naming needs—especially when past experiences, church messages, or cultural scripts labeled needs as weakness—and how emotions point us toward boundaries, comfort, and support.

From there, we get concrete about building the community you actually need: cultivating voice, choice, and autonomy; starting small with safe-enough risks; and creating spaces like walking groups, book circles, and intentional text threads. We also reframe Jesus’s “light burden” as both lighter weight and illuminating presence, emphasizing that we’re not meant to carry alone. Suffering in isolation wounds, but suffering with heals—through empathic witnesses, faithful friends, and the nearness of God.

If you’re tired of white-knuckling change and ready for a gentler, deeper way forward, this conversation will help you find clarity, reclaim your needs, and take your next safe-enough step. Subscribe, share with someone who needs encouragement, and leave a review to support the show.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome & Episode 99 Setup
• 1:17 Carly’s Story And Training
• 3:22 Why Connection Over Change
• 8:51 Pacing, Patience, And Safety
• 13:59 Inspired Not Pressured Healing
• 18:36 Needs, Attachment, And Faith
• 25:04 Balancing Self And Community
• 31:00 Gender, Culture, And Needs
• 35:03 Clarity As A Therapeutic Goal
• 40:15 A Light Yoke And God’s Nearness
• 46:05 Suffering With And Empathic Presence
• 50:18 Building The Community You Need

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I am excited to announce that this is episode 99. It's been a long road, so after this episode, obviously, you're gonna hear episode 100. And I do have something special planned out for that, so I hope you're here for that. Um, but for today, I would like to welcome Carly Marculier. Did I say that right? She did. Awesome. Okay, and the first try, too. I was like, I think I like this. Now she'll correct me. And Carly is an attachment focused therapist, and I'll let her introduce herself in a little bit. But the topic we're going to be covering today is why genuine connection is essential for Christian growth. Um, so both of us kind of having this attachment uh-based focus and therapy and also having a Christian background, we're really looking to dissect this topic and looking forward to hearing from Carly. And this outline, this podcast, kind of stemmed from one of her posts. So um excited to have this conversation with you, Carly. Um, yeah, if you just want to take some time and introduce yourself to the audience, and then we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17

Sure. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I like to tell people that I'm a northerner by heart, southerner by choice. Um, I moved to the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia in 2010. Um, I came hoping to do full-time ministry. Uh, and the Lord just has uh really funny plans how he directs our path. And so through through ministry, I was really exposed to an incongruence between discipleship and mental health themes that I was seeing in my students, um, and just became really passionate about connecting the two and understanding our stories in light of the gospel, but also recognizing how our stories shape our view of the gospel. And so that connection for me was really um really led me into full-time work in the mental health field after college, which then led me to get my master's degree in clinical mental health counseling from Regent University. Oh nice back in 2018. And so from then on, it's been this beautiful journey of connecting the two. Um and now I have a small private practice here in Lynchburg. I am an IFS informed therapist, getting trained in level one this coming uh January. So I'm super excited about that. And I focus on attachment. I've done some ABFT, which is family uh-based attachment work, uh some spiritual formation integration and relational trauma work. I really am interested in the intersection between trauma as it relates to spiritual abuse recovery as well. So those are kind of the spaces I dabble in. And attachment is what I'm deeply passionate about, attachment science, how it helps us understand um our each unique framework that we have and how it helps us even inform the way we experience our faith journey as well. So I'm so glad to be here and get to talk about this.

SPEAKER_00: 3:07

Yeah, no, that's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. You know, it's so funny as you mentioned attachment, because when I started the podcast, I was trying to figure out well, what would be a good, good name for it? It was super basic. It was like, I think the first title for it was like Created to Connect. The second one was The Genesis of Shame, because that's where kind of the attachment was disrupted, right? And then I was like, you know what? I think I'm gonna focus just on this specific topic of God attachment, and then just added the healing. So that's what it's been for the last uh couple of seasons. So uh yeah, here we are talking about attachment and how it is an important piece to relationships and everything that you just mentioned, just your background, your experience. Um, I'm looking forward to how this conversation is gonna develop. So yeah, well, let's go ahead and get started, Carly, with this uh first question. Um, as I mentioned, one of the um questions, or a lot of all these questions actually stem from a post that you wrote on your page. So um it was why is seeking connection more important than seeking change? And it just got me thinking, I was like, that's a very good question, right? Because most people who come to therapy, they want to see change. And in the pursuit of change, often, I think this is what happens sometimes, they might miss the connection. But am I kind of hearing that right? I mean, obviously, I'm gonna let you elaborate on on the on that point, but that's kind of where I went with that question, I guess.

SPEAKER_01: 4:36

Yeah, no, that's great. Yeah, this post kind of came out of a collection of quotes from clients, actually. So I'll give it the props. Um, I just learned so much in sitting in this chair. And so for me, one of the questions that I guess I took quotes from clients and I turned them into questions. Yeah, because there was this um we say in IFS therapy all the time, the agenda is connection. Because, right, like you're saying, oftentimes when you're coming into therapy, for many clients entering the therapy space, it can be really easy to want to just change something. Most people come to therapy because they want something to be different in their life, whether it be internally or externally in their life. And so, but the reality of my maybe a holistic or attachment-based uh trauma-informed perspective would say that that symptoms aren't just things to be fixed, right? And and maybe the DSM would could would suggest otherwise if we're gonna pathologize. But in this particular realm, when we're looking at it from a trauma-informed lens, we're seeing symptoms not just as you know, distressing, because they some of them can be very much so, but they also are uh data that is trying to communicate something and in parts, uh IFS uses the language of parts, but you could say emotions, uh states, whatever we want to call it, this idea that um it's our systems way, our body's way of trying to get our attention, trying to reconnect what maybe has been disconnected. Um this is so beautiful because it rather than you know focusing more on like behavior change, right? We're actually leaning into connection. And I see this in so many different realms. We're looking at it theologically or attachment-based. Um, from the internal family systems model, connection is the pathway to healing. And we'd look at so many different modalities that have different perspectives on this, like behavioral or solution focus, which can maybe fix behaviors from a surface level perspective. Um, but this type of work, connection work, I would say, right, integration work, really focuses on allowing ourselves to feel safe, seen, soothed, right, and brought to security, which is that that attachment framework that maybe we missed growing up. Um I would say that all of that then leads to change, positive change or transformation, healing, want to call it. Um, but it's a different way of doing it. And I like to kind of pose it in the relationship to what does it feel like, right? If I say the agenda is fix it, change it, right? What does that feel like in your body? And I oftentimes ask and clients that when they're like, I just want this to change. I'm like, what's that like to feel like you got to fix it? And if I offer this invitation of what if we could just connect with that feeling, what does that feel like? Um, oftentimes it's a like immediate, like the physical shift in the body, just is like, oh, that feels so much lighter.

SPEAKER_02: 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:35

And I wonder if maybe that is evidence that connection is like a beautiful first step.

SPEAKER_00: 7:41

Yeah, yeah. You know, it it's it's so good to hear you say that because I think one of the barriers, I guess, that a lot of clients face is that if I'm not seeing change right away, then either I'm doing something wrong or my counselor is doing something wrong, right? Because they want to see change. And I get it, right? I think if I was in their shoes, I'd say the reason why I'm here, why I'm paying you is so I can see change. And the work that we do, especially when we're working with trauma or or just counseling in general, is that it takes time. I mean, we're helping overcome, you know, years of patterns, of relating and so on. And um, you know, I kind of um understand them when they want that, and how hard it is for us probably to just sit with that too. At least I've I felt it, where gosh, I wish I could get you there, but this is gonna take time, you know. Um, yeah, can you speak a little bit more to that? Like the desire for people to come to counseling and wanting change, and maybe at some point the realization is, you know what, maybe it's this therapeutic alliance that we've established that's helping me see life differently. Um, yeah, what else would you add to that, that the connection piece that people are missing?

SPEAKER_01: 9:00

Yeah, something that I like to tell clients when they first come to see me is because oftentimes people have, like you're saying, they have a misconception of what therapy is in general. Um, like I'm gonna come and I'm gonna ask you questions, you're gonna tell me what to do or tell me how to fix it, right? And I'm like, oh, that's not what I do. Maybe you don't want to see me. Um, but one of the things that I like to let clients know is, you know, even more so than even my therapeutic relationship, which is I think the most important piece because I get to be the empathic witness that allows them to then build that within themselves. I like to let them know that my goal is for them to be able to connect with themselves differently. And so this is from like an internal perspective. So we have these different layers of like the way that I connect with myself, the way that I connect with God, that all is going to change the way I connect externally. Because we're normally coming in for an external problem most of the time, right? We say all problems are relational problems. Um, and so in that sense, it allows clients to maybe get a little bit larger of a scope to see, like, oh, like I've been so focused on maybe the external dynamic of my life. And I haven't given any attention to connecting with like what I feel or think or want or need. And so um bringing them to this concept of what does it mean to connect with myself? What does it mean to connect with God? And for some people, that wasn't allowed or that was seen as bad or sinful, right? So we have to, there's a lot of work to be done, even just around the concept of connection. Uh, but it that's a beautiful starting place. And it is a slow place. So oftentimes I talk a lot with clients about pacing. Uh and I ask the question, you know, what what would happen if we didn't get there right now? You know, because there's normally a valid fear or concern around what the urgency is. Um and I don't know if it's a quote, but I heard it recently and I loved it. Is this idea like that if we're patient with something, it means we care about it. And so that's kind of the language of this. It's softer, it's gentle because it matters. It matters to go slow, especially if from an attachment perspective, you know, our system has been forced to adapt in order to maintain connection or safety. There is an urgency because it's still in that survival mode. And so being able to slow clients down to say this can take as much time as you need. Uh, and are you willing to let it take as much time as it needs? Um, is it's a very different approach. And you know, maybe not for everybody, but I think it is a beautiful invitation. It can really soften, um, and I've seen it soften uh clients immediately, even just that invitation of, hey, we don't have to rush this.

SPEAKER_02: 11:42

That's true.

SPEAKER_01: 11:44

And I think there tends to be sometimes, and maybe I'm rambling, but this idea of the therapist even wants me to get better quick. And I I I remind clients like there is no agenda over here. The agenda for me is to connect with you, to connect with yourself. And even that pacing and um expectation can be helpful.

SPEAKER_00: 12:04

Yeah. No, that was great. That was great. You know, I don't know, did you experience this too, Carly? Where at the beginning, when I first started, because I was, if I were to go to counseling as a client, I think that would have been my approach. So when I became a counselor, it was like my thought was I'm doing something wrong because I'm not helping them get to where they need to get, right? Where they want to go. So that was my struggle early on. And I realized with time, especially when doing trauma work, that it has to take time. It has to take time. And to your point, there's this patience about it, and it's inviting and it's warm and it's caring for the process to get there, you know. Um, I don't know if you experienced that, but that was so hard for me initially, and then afterwards, now it's just I can sit there with them, make that invitation, and walk with them, right? Um, one of the trauma experts in the field is uh Dr. Guy Bermante, and he talks about this idea of compassion. He speaks of it in the I want to say it's Latin, and compassion means to suffer with. And that has changed my whole approach to sitting with clients as they walk through, you know, their trauma or whatever the case is. But yeah, that was a tough one for me through uh when I first started.

SPEAKER_01: 13:23

Yeah, oh, I totally agree. Uh and the pressure that put on me, right, as the therapist, um, to have all the answers. And to, you know, the way I practice now is oftentimes really letting the client know, like, I believe you have the answers. And I I get the honor of like helping you find them. And that one takes the pressure off of my system and also opens them up to like, oh, like I do, like I can start being curious about that. Because but it is it for for anybody listening that's like in their practicum internship, you know, it's supervision hours, like it takes time to like like slow down and and create that pace too. So we can be gentle with ourselves just as much as we learn to be gentle with our clients.

SPEAKER_00: 14:10

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Um there was this other part that you mentioned in there, I guess also from from your clients, that you said when it comes to healing, what do you mean by we should be inspired as opposed to pressured? So we need to be inspired as opposed to pressured.

SPEAKER_01: 14:29

So there, yeah, this is um kind of the idea that there's a misconception around like really what healing is. So maybe we can start there. Um the that healing is somehow like the destination, like I'm gonna do therapy and then I'm healed and then I'm done, right? And um kind of dancing around this idea that what if it's not necessarily about a destination or a like a checkbox, um, or even like like oh, a reduction of symptoms, because I think so oftentimes we'll see that as well. I just want to stop feeling blank. And yet if healing is less about like the removal of something and more about the expansion of our system into experiencing goodness, passion, safety, delight, etc. Right. Um, and so in that way, if we're view, if we're viewing healing through that lens of like our system's ability to experience goodness, and goodness can be many things, then it takes the pressure off, right? Because I think there is, again, going back to this idea of like change and pressure, I think I think the two coexist, right? And that uh if I really want something to change, I'm gonna be kind of like, I think it's Andy Kobler that says like white knuckling it, right? Like white knuckle the therapeutic process. And I love that concept of the more we do that, the actually the more it actually actually decreases or creates barriers to our work, uh, because the pressure doesn't allow us to expand, right? I think it's Peter Levine that has that really cool. I don't know if you've seen these, uh, the little balls that kind of expand open really large and then they get really small and concave on themselves. Peter Levine has this really beautiful analogy of this um the somatic experience where the nervous system expands to connection and it it closes, it contracts to safety. And so when I when we were talking about this in session, the client was like, I want to be inspired, not pressured. It was this beautiful language around what if what if expansion is is actually what heals us more than like the pressure, the the pressure to perform or the pressure to get better, whatever the pressure was for that particular person. And so one of the things that I teach my clients a lot is connection and safety, they're both important. Um, and so when we focus on expansion in the system, we have to do that gently. And if we do that too fast, we try to go too quick, if we try to pressure our system into being safe or being whatever we're the agenda is potentially internally, we can actually do more damage. And so inspiration is oftentimes more of a gentle invitation to pay attention to delight. And pay attention, we call it beauty hunting, right? In in the therapeutic space of it can be small moments, glimmers. There's lots of different words for this, right? It can be as like sometimes it's like the way the sun comes through the window or uh the coffee that I drink in the morning, right? Whatever it is that just is like, oh this is good. I love this, right? These are glimmers and and and how inspiration actually, right? The these connections to what is good is what is increasing our capacity for healing. Uh that's kind of where we're what what we were talking about in that particular question was just what if, like what would that feel like to be inspired rather than pressured into this process of becoming whole?

SPEAKER_00: 18:08

Yeah, no, that's great. That's great. It's it is amazing how much we learn from our clients as they give us those little nuggets of insight, right? Um, and it kind of leads to this idea. I mean, everything that we're talking about, I think is leading to the importance of connection and building a community that we need. Um, but I think one of the things that stands out to me as I think about clients and think about the work that we do is the difficulty that some people have expressing needs, right? Like I need this. It sounds, it sounds like weakness in a sense, or at least I think that's how some people perceive it. I know how I perceived it when I first started. It was like, gosh, to say that I need something, why? I'm the oldest of four, you're there for younger brothers and sisters, you kind of put those things to the side because you need to sacrifice yourself for others, right? And a lot of people kind of have this, especially if they experience trauma, where they're put in this position where they have to do the things just to survive. And that's all they've ever known. So when we see our clients that come into the office, why else do you think it's difficult for people to express those needs out outside of maybe maybe it's that they feel that it feels weak, or maybe it's that they don't want to ask for help or want to be a bother, which is another common um statement that people make, right? But yeah, what what have you seen with regarding that? Why is it hard for people to express their needs to even the people that love them?

SPEAKER_01: 19:36

Yeah, it's it's such a complex context for this because I think it's multifactorial, right? Whether it be I think it's primary, you know, I would go back to attachment experiences because if we are wired for connection and that's the basis of our context here, that we automatically talk about things, like we move towards each other. That's that's the design. Then what makes us not? Right? That's always my question. And from um, I think it's like an ABFT perspective, like an attachment-based perspective. The question that we ask adolescents in this work with families is um, did you did you or do you feel safe to move towards your primary caregiver or your parent when you have a problem? And oftentimes problems are indicative of needs. So we could we could fill it in there if you had a need, if you have a problem, why or why not? And the the answer to that is oftentimes really telling, right? And so I like to encourage people to ask the question, you know, if it's if it's hard for them to uh express their needs, maybe they don't even know what their needs are because they've been so exiled from their system. Um we're told they shouldn't have needs, or you know, needs are selfish if we're gonna use the Christian context for that, um, placing other people's needs above our own, right? We have all of these burdens um that can kind of uh eliminate the beauty and the the receptivity of what needs I think can be, right, in relationship with one another. Um, and so I like to encourage people to ask, like, how are my needs responded to as a child?

SPEAKER_00: 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:13

Because that can tell us a lot about why it might be difficult to express our needs now. And that's what I tend to see the most. It's like it just wasn't safe. Or it was dismissed or shamed, right? There's so many different responses that people get to their needs, and so those those external responses get internalized, and then from that internalization, we are almost like telling ourselves we're believing those things, right? And then um kind of disembodying in a lot of ways from what what our system is trying to tell us that we need. And I like to use the phrase like our needs, like our emotions oftentimes tell us what we need. And so there's another connection to maybe a holistic experience of if you don't know what your needs are, right? If it's hard to express them because we don't even know what they are, then maybe listen to the emotion that we're having, because that sometimes can um get us to, oh, I think I know what I need. Like anger is a good example of that. Most people will be like, oh, anger's, you know, anger's bad. And like, well, rage is bad, bad if we want to use a label for it. But anger tells me what I don't want. Anger tells me what I don't like, anger tells me what I need, which is oftentimes a boundary if I'm getting angry, right? So um those are just a few thoughts that I have when it comes to like expressing needs. There's such a um context for developing and and developing safety really so that needs can be expressed. And I would say, and maybe we'll get into this a little bit when we're talking about community, but um, one of the pieces that I think is really challenging when we're looking at attachment adaptations, whether you aren't naming yourself as like more anxiously attached, or um, I would say we're we have all of them for sense of attached. Yeah, yeah, for different relationships, right? Um, but wherever we find ourselves on that grid of attachment, we can really notice that naming our needs or knowing that I can meet my needs is one half of the equation, and knowing that people want to meet my needs is the other half.

SPEAKER_02: 23:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:17

And so some people are like, I can meet my needs, like I'm more of avoidant attached individual. So I'm like, I got it, I'm independent, I can do it, right? But then we have someone else, it's like, I can't, I need someone. And so we have these imbalances that make it really difficult within relationship with one another. And so when it comes to like expressing needs, that building of safety that I mentioned a minute ago, I'm curious about what does it look like to build that internally first with myself and with God, so that when I'm going externally into relationships and building community and connection with others, that that sense of knowing that God is there for me and knowing that I am there for me, I can build that agency and um we call it self-leadership in the IFS, but uh just the beauty of those different levels of connection that we can make with ourselves and then how we can honor our needs. I think it's Pete Skazeiro that says, you know, your needs in the family of God, your needs are a delight. And I don't know if many of us believe that because we've been told a different message from society, from our families.

SPEAKER_00: 24:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 24:22

But it needs oh, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 24:24

No, no, no, and you're right, and that's a good point too, because we are talking to a Christian audience, and I mean you you you said it perfectly where I think most Christians believe or we misinterpret or misapply that passage of sacrificing yourself for the for others and take it to an extreme, right? Now I I've had a hard time wrestling with that because I think today the emphasis has been so much on me, right, and not others, but we're community-oriented people, right? So it if you isolate too much or focus so much on your needs that you don't use that time away to reinvest back into the community, then there's something missing, right? And then there's the other part where if you're so invested in the community but have no time to yourself, then you don't have anything else to give, right? So I often find that with a lot of Christians where I was on that side where I was burned out, but in my head, sacrificing yourself was honorable, noble, the Christian right thing to do. And I still believe that, but I have more balance now. So can you speak a little bit to that? Just just the struggle of connecting. How can I be serving others, meeting other people's needs while also investing in my own personal walk with Christ so that I can, you know, come back and serve or invest in the community in a sense.

SPEAKER_01: 25:55

It's such an important conversation. And the the thing that I think about when you said that was this idea of balance. And so right, I hear the polarization of that is like either I can have needs or I can't have needs, right? It's like one or the other. And what I've learned and what I tend to try to embody and like teach is this idea of like, it's not about what, it's about when, right? Like, when is it appropriate to take time for self, right? Or to to meet my needs uh or to meet others' needs. And so it's it's more nuanced, it's not as simple as black or white, it's not as simple as yes or no. Um, and so I think that's where discernment, and we could you know talk about this from a really theological perspective, but what I love about um, I think it's within the IFS framework, it talks about tone, timing, and texture. And that really helps my system with asking the questions of like when, right? So it and this helps me find balance. So if the tone, timing, and texture of whatever the ask is or whatever the need is, right? Um, that's sometimes it's slowing down enough to kind of listen and pay attention to like, what's the like does this feel really urgent? Like, do I need to do it right now? Um, like let's use this in the in the context of like meeting someone else's needs. Um, because I think that's where a lot of Christians get hung up, right? It's like I have to meet everybody's needs because that's what God's called me to. And I would say that is an invitation, but is it always? Like, did Jesus always go to the people, or was there times where he moved away in solitude? Like he did this beautifully, where it was like it was time and it was also time to um rest and and be with God. And so being able to kind of hold that space of what's the timing on this? Does it feel really urgent, or do I feel like there's enough space to make this decision, check in? Um, the texture of it is like, is it really like critical? Like if you don't, dot, dot, dot, right? If it it is, is it more of an invitation of like God's like opening this opportunity? Um, and then the the way it's said too, like not just like the tonation of it, but the texture of the language that we're saying to ourselves or that someone's saying to us, right? So those those three T's really help me and um really allow me to kind of get curious about the when of my needs or the when of other people's needs, rather than automatically, you know. I I probably lean more as as you do to this, like, I'll help others. Yes, I want to say yes, I want to help. Um, and yet that burned me out fast. And so honoring our edges is also holy work too. And that's hard to acknowledge our limitations and our need for rest and God too. So it's it's more of a balance, which is so much more complex and and allows us into the idea of inviting God into that space to ask.

SPEAKER_00: 28:50

Yeah, yeah. Well, I really like what you said there about uh the when, right? It's it's um to your point, the the duality of it's either this or that, right? The black and whites, this or that. And I remember one of my professors said, and maybe this is what you were kind of alluding to, is that what if it's just both? But to address both, it's okay, when? When do I address this part? When do I address that part, right? And that's that that's such a hard concept, I think, sometimes for Christians because they think there's only one right way to do it. And one of my professors, he he shared this. Um, he said, you know, sometimes in life you're making decisions that's not necessarily right or wrong, but the question that you want to ask yourself, is it wise? Is it wise for me to take, make this decision and so on? And it kind of removes that that piece of I'm gonna make a mistake, as opposed to I'm gonna trust God in this process, and based on what I know about his word, about his character, I'm gonna go this way. And if the door is shut, then it's shut. But it seems like the wise thing to do right now, right? And um, so I think that's usually what I help clients with too is that when they're struggling with something, they want to make it black. Or white, and they say, Well, if I don't do this, then it's gonna go all wrong, right? Yeah, maybe it's okay to have both. There's fear about entering that relationship, but also it sounds like they're a great person, right? So it's one of those those types of things where you try to help them hold both things at the same time. But I really like I really like that concept you mentioned of when? When do I need to tend to others? When can I attend to myself?

SPEAKER_01: 30:24

Yeah, both are important.

SPEAKER_00: 30:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:27

That that middle space is that's where the tension is, right? It's way harder to be there. Yeah, to hold that discomfort, but it it gets easier. We create space in that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:38

Now, um, Carly, do you notice a difference between how men and women respond to these different needs? Um, I'm looking at two separate layers. One is gender, and the other is culture. So I'm Latino background, and this aspect, again, this is one of the things that I had to wrestle with as I, you know, had my own um journey to becoming a counselor is okay, it is highly honored in Latino culture to be self-sacrificial. You have your role, you have your role, and you give it all, right? And you work hard and all these different things. That, and then you're also a man, so you have different expectations as a man. So this whole idea, I don't, I don't think I should, I haven't shared this with you, but going into the field of counseling as a Latino male received a lot of pushback. So, so it was one of those things where I was like, okay, I felt shame, I felt guilt, I felt all these different things. So I think when we talk about needs, there's a space that seems to be a little bit more open for women to share. What are your needs? Not so much for men, but also maybe men's needs are a little bit different. And Dr. Honeycutt and I have talked about this a lot. It's like, you know, maybe we're addressing men's issues in a way that's not um not that it's not helpful, but in a way it doesn't invite them or make them feel like I'm actually listening to what they're actually needing, if that makes sense. But have you seen any difference? I I don't know if you work just with pure females or or or mix.

SPEAKER_01: 32:10

Well, I I've I've seen a few males and I see families sometimes, so I've worked with some ads. Um, but I I would say that like just social, like the socialization of men, I just have so much empathy. Like um, it's just heartbreaking. And I don't know if you've read the book, um, You're the One You've Been Waiting For by Richard Schwartz, but he has a whole chapter on the socialization of gender, and it's fantastic because it really does um showcase like how men and women, although I don't like to like generalize on gender, but I do believe gender and culture play massive roles because it is multifactorial, but the the idea that men and women are nurtured differently, like I don't know what the stats are. Um I don't want to make some up, but it was like something along the age of like six or seven, boys are treated drastically different than girls are.

SPEAKER_03: 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:07

And and the messages around masculinity, right? And and uh different uh men having different different needs than women. And it's like all of us have basic, basically the same needs, and maybe we express it differently, but like needs for support and love and kindness and just like those basic ones, I think get kind of stomped out in some ways culturally, um, just for for men and versus women. And I think there's some messages for women too that are just as toxic and painful. Um, and so I do see both playing a significant role and how we perceive them. And I like to use like the collection of how past experiences, our perceptions of those past experiences and our personality all right, all kind of connect to how we maybe perceive our needs, express our needs. And I think gender and culture play a huge aspect in like that past experience and our perception, you know, information of personality. But it is a really interesting thing to know because I think men and women maybe have different um challenges, even though they it's similar in the sense of like maybe we have a difficult time expressing our needs, but maybe for different reasons.

SPEAKER_00: 34:24

Sure. Yeah, yeah, no, that's super helpful. And maybe that's what kind of leads to this aspect of um even how we see goals for counseling. Um in counseling, it seems that maybe for some people it's helpful to gain some clarity, right? So what when we make the goal clarity, what is what does that do for clients? How does that help clients like to see um I guess this have a different perspective than what they've had? But yeah, can you elaborate just on uh what was meant by the goal being clarity?

SPEAKER_01: 34:58

Yeah. So this is specific, I remember the session um where there was just like a lot of uncertainty. And I like that picture of like, have you ever seen that meme? It's like the yarn ball, and it's like all modeled, and then the therapist is like it's trying to pull out the yarn and like organize it. And oftentimes I think that is that is where a lot of clients start from. There's a lot of uncertainty at the onset of therapy, and oftentimes, right, that's where discomfort, uncertainty, not having answers, that's where a lot of people have a hard time just sitting in that. And so there's a difference between getting our questions answered and clarity, right? And so, and I think that's kind of the invitation that was made in that session was just like, what if what if the goal, what if the goal in therapy could just be clarity instead of like this firm, fixed destination? Because clarity is an ongoing process of understanding to clear space to understand why this is in one hand and this is in the other. And and through clarity, sure, we maybe get an outcome, but that's not necessarily the goal of it, right? Because again, going back to pressure and change, if we're really agenda setting, it can kind of um untie the process a little bit more. And so not necessarily seeking a specific answer to something, but more on the ways of like connecting dots. Um, we like to call it trailheads in IFS therapy, right? This idea of like following the trailhead until we understand. And that leads to a deeper, deeper understanding of myself, God, and others. And even just that alone is like worth going to therapy. I think a lot of times people think they should go to therapy if they have like a major thing happening, but I think anybody can gain clarity, just learning about giving themselves time to know themselves. And so that's what that's what I was kind of hinting at is like, what if clarity could be a goal? And that feels soft and gentle.

SPEAKER_00: 37:02

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's it's funny that you mentioned as you started to elaborate on it, this illustration from again. I'll do a shout-out, Dr. Corsini. He's always embedded a lot of time with me. But he uh he kind of gave this illustration of as counselors, when we have clients who come to us, they're looking for like four things, right? And one of them is kind of taking the role of the optometrist. And we're trying on these different glasses to see what helps you see things a little bit clearer, right? It's for you like gaining clarity. Well, maybe one side's a little bit off, but you know, we'll correct that and so on. So they come in and they see clarity and say, Whoa, wow, that's their aha moment, right? Um, and then there's another one who may look for a survival guide, someone who's been through the trenches, who's been through the same road that they're going through, and they just are able to empathize and understand exactly what it is that they're that they're going through. Um, others want maybe a coach, someone who's just encouraging them, right? They don't have anyone on there um supporting them, they don't have a social support system. So the counselor kind of plays this role of coaching them through this process, like being an encourager, supporting them, and so on. And then there's the last one that we've kind of addressed, but is not really our role, is that of a mechanic where people come in and they just want to fix the problem, right? Tell me what the problem is, I'll go in and I'll fix it. And actually, some clients are able to do that. Like if you just highlight one issue for them, it's like, oh, that's the problem. I can go and fix it. But again, I share all this in clarifying that really what we're looking for, though, is the connection that is based off of these things, right? Because those things, when we provide those insights for clients, it does create a deeper connection because you just help clarify or you help me identify or you help me with something, and that makes me trust you. Now, a big part of that is also how we're relating, right? Empathy and connecting and so on. But I really just like the picture that we're painting of what therapy can actually look like because it doesn't just look one way, you know. Um, I was doing part of my dissertation was writing on uh taking in the stories of these Latina counselors. And one of them, her big thing was uh she said, you know what? I'm not the typical counselor. Like there's counselors who are just soft and gentle and kind, and I I'm just not like that. So I struggled with this identity piece of, well, I'm not like that. Can I be a good counselor? So for her, one of the things that she kind of uh mentioned was that she is able to help the clients kind of hold a mirror to themselves and help them reflect on, oh, here's where there's work that needs to be done, here's where work needs to be done. So those of you guys who are listening, counseling looks very different. It depends on your counselor, it depends on the process. But one thing that is certain in all of the sessions, it is this desire for connection, right? And that we can develop that informed that. Um, you know, obviously we have this spiritual integration piece with okay, what is what is God, um, what is God trying to do through all of this? Um, there was one other question that you had on there, and we'll get to the community one as well. But one of the questions that you had was, what if the burden we are meant to carry is light? Right. And I I I read it twice and I didn't know if you meant what if the burden we are meant to carry is light, or what if the burden to carry is light? I don't know if that makes sense. It makes sense in my head.

SPEAKER_01: 40:31

I just don't know if I'm glad you picked up on that because I I kind of meant in both ways. Um, but it it obviously comes from Matthew 11 and the idea of you know when God invites us to bring our burdens to Him, right? To come, all who are weary and heavy laden, I will give you rest. For my yoke is easy, my burden is light. And the more I meditate on that, the more I think about it, it could, I I know it's meant to be this like like physically light load, but what if it's also light, right? Like light to the world, uh witness to the light, all of those types of things. But um, in this context, I think too, when we're looking at just the process of connecting with ourselves, with others, with God, sometimes that's it's heavy, right? Sometimes going back and doing the work of therapy is is hard and heavy work. And so this invitation of um the burden that we're carrying. I remember this interaction with a client and she made a comment like, oh, well, I have to, I have to please everybody, or I have to, there was some sort of like burden around her Christian upbringing. And I remember saying, I wonder if if the burden isn't light, I wonder if it's not from God. Like just being curious about that. And so that's kind of where this idea came from with what if when when when Christ invites us into partnership with him, because that's connect ultimately that's what we're aiming for is this connection, this union with God. And and he's inviting us into not just carrying the burden of life of our stories on our own. And there's some hope in that to say, like, maybe maybe not not just because it's heavy doesn't mean I don't have to carry it, but that I'm never called to carry it alone. And and and if we were to get into like right the this yoke, right? And how the they would normally put one ox that was um larger and older with a younger ox, right? And so the the beautiful invitation of this is are are we inviting God in? Are we connecting? Um, or have we even been told that God wants to connect with us in our burden? He wants to carry the load and allow us to learn from him. Um, and so the question I always like to offer clients is what amount of my burden that I'm carrying that, you know, there's some burdens we unburden from, and there's others that we aren't called to unburden from, whether that be just things outside of our control. And so with those burdens, we can say, you know, how much of this burden am I trying to carry alone in my own strength? And what would it feel like to invite the comfort of God or the nearness of God into that with me?

SPEAKER_00: 43:17

Yeah. And what would that feel like, right? Like what what would what do you think the clients experience in moving from the weight of life to now joining together with Christ, inviting him into that situation and feeling it like? Like what do they describe that feeling as?

SPEAKER_01: 43:38

So I'm thinking of a few um instances. So I do a lot of a manual prayer in session and God imagery work. Um, and and what is always so powerful about that is is when clients are experiencing this and it's more of their experience than mine, right? I get to witness it, but there is this, maybe not even somatically, but some clients have described just like um feeling empowered, right? There's this empowerment. Um the the biggest challenge that I think the core, and I don't know, there's probably lots of research around this, but this core feeling of being alone, right? That is the essence of disconnection, right? And so if we're all marred with that, that fear, right? That innate fear of disconnection, then this beauty of connection allows us to feel like I can do it. And there's there's some incredible research on suffering and how suffering alone is what causes trauma, right? Like this the lack of an empathic witness, right? Um, but when we are in it with someone, it it's we can endure, right? And there is a there's a coexistence, like we were talking about earlier, where it's not that it doesn't, it's not that it's not painful, it's not that it's not heavy, but that I'm not, I'm with, I'm witness in it, and someone is sharing in that. And so oftentimes I think there's an experience of God's compassion or God's grace or God's just nearness, like feeling like he gets it, right? Like feeling that there's a witness to my um experience and that he cares about that experience. Uh and so those are just a few thoughts, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:18

Yeah, yeah. And you know, um, I often think about how much Paul even emphasized in his letters, like the one another's, right? See a lot in Corinthians and so on. And yeah, this aspect of not just, you know, inviting the church or inviting people within the church community to join in on that. And I think one thing maybe that we had missed um years ago is teaching people or or knowing how to sit with the pain of other people, right? So something bad happens to someone, and we always want to have the right words to say, you know, um, or want to provide comfort through words when sometimes it's just sitting with people. Um, I interviewed a friend last year, I think maybe two years ago, and they had lost a baby. They had lost two babies actually. And he said, I was surprised by how many people um were trying to be kind, but in trying to be kind with their words, they actually hurt us a little bit more. And I said, So what so what helped? And he said, I think it was when people just sat with us and they just heard us out and didn't feel the need to say anything. And you know, it's it reminds me just of those moments of silence when you know the Israelites or when um people in scripture were going through their struggles that they felt like they didn't hear God was silent, but he wasn't, he was waiting patiently as they went through that process, right? And I think um I think that's something that we can take from this aspect of uh one another's uh of being there for one another, is sometimes it's just sitting there in the suffering with that person walking through with them. You know, um you know, earlier Carly, we talked about meeting needs and um being able to identify needs. So how can the audience, people listening, how can they build this community that is able to meet their needs? You know, you talked about it identifying or speaking those needs, but how do we build that? Because I think most people don't know how to.

SPEAKER_01: 47:22

Yeah. That question is such it's like a podcast episode all in itself, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 47:27

Um could probably be one.

SPEAKER_01: 47:30

I know, truly. Um I if there's one thing I feel like so many, so many of us lack is just like access to social connection. And so I think that's what we're referring to here too, is like this idea of building community outside of myself. And I would say that um it's so difficult when we're looking at our stories and our adaptions, right? And I talked about this a little briefly earlier, but this this question came out of if I could actually build the community I need, what would that be like? And so it's this this invitation to uh I would say self-leadership to say if I have a need, um, the need is um lack of connection socially, right? Um, then I would say that one of the the biggest challenges or the biggest work that I do with clients is recognizing that in in some aspect they have power and control to make that meet that need um through connection with other people. And so I like to say to my clients, we like voice, choice, and autonomy, right? Those when we can build those three things, it actually gives us this agency that's like, oh, I I need community, I need connection. And oftentimes, right, we can maybe lean one way or the other of like, oh, I'm just no one reaches out, no one asks, no one's there for me, right? Or I don't need anybody, I'm good, right? Either one of those adaptions kind of is missing out, really, right? If we were made for connection with God and others, then there is an invitation here to be with one another. And so, like, how do we do that? And I've seen a lot of clients when they take ownership of that, like I am called to be in community and building safety first internally. I believe that that's primary. Um, the more that we can build that safety internally, the more that we can have capacity for others' inability, is what I say, right? Like being in community is messy, right? Think of any like deep relationship we have, it's like, whew, it's hard. Um, and so I think that that becomes like the challenge is like to enter in relationship, to enter into connection is that mirror. And to be able to do that takes a lot of grace. And so with ownership of our own experiences comes self-compassion, and that self-compassion, I think, allows people to then have compassion for others in their own, wherever they are, right? Um, and so what I've seen with my clients uh that I just think is beautiful is when they've been able to own that, and uh, you know, a client was able to say, I want to build my own community. And I was like, Yeah, like do that. Um, build the community I need. This is where I've seen clients meet this need by engaging in just creative problem solving. Like, okay, I have this need for connection. How can I do that? You know, I've seen some clients create book clubs or walking groups or connect with, you know, community events in their neighborhood, starting them. Like we are people of creativity. And so there's, you know, I there's this beautiful invitation to to create um and to to to add like to put out in the world and say, hey, like this is what this is what I want to do and see who comes. And then oftentimes those are our people in a lot of ways. So those are just a few ways that I think what I've seen, what I've noticed when people start taking that agency and saying, I I need community. And what are some ways I can do that? That inner work is that foundation, and then that obviously can lead to taking some risks and getting out there.

SPEAKER_00: 51:08

I'm glad you mentioned that that part too, the idea of taking risks, right? Um, because to build community, it is risky, especially if you've been hurt before. It's scary to think to put yourself out there again and feel the rejection or unwantedness and so on. But would it be fair to say that that's part of the process?

SPEAKER_01: 51:28

I think so, right? We say like safe enough, right?

unknown: 51:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 51:32

That's good. That's good.

SPEAKER_01: 51:34

Safe enough. It doesn't have to be, it's not going to be all the way safe, right?

SPEAKER_00: 51:39

But that's so true. Yeah. That's good. Well, this has been a great conversation, Carly. Thank you so much again just for um having this conversation with me about um why connection is so important. Um, but before we close, is there any are there any final thoughts? Anything that I missed, anything that you feel like it would be good for the audience to know um about our topic that we discussed today?

SPEAKER_01: 52:01

I think the only thing I would add to all of this is just being gentle with where you are at in this process, you know. Um everybody's in a different place. And so be where we are, and and that is a really beautiful place to connect, right? That's a good first starting place. It's like, where do I begin? Begin where you are. Start connecting with wherever you're at um and allow that to lead you.

SPEAKER_00: 52:26

That's great. I love that. Well, thank you again, Carly. I really appreciated your time and this conversation. And yeah, for those of you who tuned in, I hope this was a blessing to you. And tune in next week for the 100th episode, which I will prepare something special for that. So I'm looking forward to it. I'll see you guys then.