From Anxiety To Trust: Rewriting Your Story With God w/ Heather O'Brien

Fear knows how to sound reasonable. It hides inside “what if” spirals, budget math that never adds up, and prayers that feel stuck on repeat. We sat down with prophetic healing coach Heather O’Brien to ask a bold question: what if fear isn’t the root at all, but a symptom pointing to what we believe about God’s character and our worth?

We trace the crucial difference between facts and Truth, where painful experiences are honored without letting their lies set our future. Heather shares how people often carry faith in their fear—trusting isolation, control, or worst-case planning more than God’s steady love. We explore why perfect love expels fear, why the opposite of fear is love rather than effort, and how to move trust from outcomes to the process of walking with God. Along the way, Heather unpacks a practical “spiritual warfare kit” for panic moments and shows how daily Scripture declarations can retrain our minds, grounding us in peace when emotions surge.

Heather’s own story moves from years of hypervigilance and depression to freedom through hearing God’s voice, forgiving deeply, and naming the specific fears beneath the surface—rejection, abandonment, punishment, the unknown. We challenge common spiritual shortcuts, including overusing “thorn in the flesh” to justify staying stuck, and offer a gentler, truer path: let God reveal the root, invite wise help, and break agreement with fear by name. If you’ve ever wondered why anxiety returns after heartfelt prayers, this conversation gives you language, tools, and hope to keep going.

If this resonates, share it with a friend who needs courage today, subscribe for more soul-strengthening episodes, and leave a review so we know what to explore next.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Topic Setup
• 1:55 Meet Heather: Journey And Calling
• 5:12 Fear As Symptom, Not Root
• 9:05 Facts Versus Truth In Christ
• 13:25 Faith In Fear vs Trust In God
• 18:10 Process Over Outcomes In Prayer
• 22:58 Practical Tools: Warfare Kit And Mind Renewal
• 31:53 Heather’s Story: From Panic To Freedom
• 39:20 Stop Managing What God Heals
• 46:05 Naming Fear And Breaking Agreement

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm so thankful that you're here. As usual, always trying to find new topics to discuss with you about your relationship with God and your relationship with others. And today we're going to talk about how to distinguish fear from our relationship with God. And my guest, Heather O'Brien, is going to be discussing this. Welcome to the show, Heather.

SPEAKER_01: 0:31

Hey, yeah, I'm so excited to be here. I'm looking forward to this conversation. I know it's going to be so good.

SPEAKER_00: 0:35

It's going to be great. We had a conversation earlier. It flowed so well. And I think that this one is going to be one of those that's going to be super beneficial for those who are listening. So, guys, as always, thank you for your support. Tune into the podcast. I'm on iTunes and Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And also leave a review. The reviews are so helpful. It kind of gives me a gauge of how you guys are tuning into the podcast. And also lets me know just kind of what topics are of interest to you. I have had some of those and I always enjoy bringing new topics to you guys. So thank you again for being here. And uh Miss Heather O'Brien, so glad that you're here with us. Again, this seems to be your area of expertise as you talk about fear in our relationship with God. But before we jump into our topic, I usually just like to give you the floor and just uh share a little bit about who you are and and what you do and um and anything else that you'd like to share.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35

Yeah, so I well, I don't have all the the letters behind my name like you do. In fact, I have no letters behind my name. But I I like to say that I'm a I'm a licensed minister, I'm not a licensed therapist, so I I like to make that clear. I don't have all of the book knowledge, I have the spiritual knowledge. And I think both are handy. Yeah, both come in handy. I I was an accountant before I started doing all the healing business. And um, so I I would do people's books and you know, all that. And so I I know what it's like to work a full-time job and have kids and still need to get healing done, still need to do all the stuff and feel like the busy life. And um, so I guess I come with that side of it, knowing, you know, there's different perspectives from all of this. Like some people are like, how do you how do you do all these things and have all and I have three kids, I've been married for 23 years. And I'm like, well, um, God's given me a lot to steward, yes, but also he showed me how to steward it. So I can't wait to help and share, share all those tips and tricks with you.

SPEAKER_03: 2:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:37

Yeah, I'm a prophetic healing coach, is what I like to call myself now. I like to hear God's voice in order to help people heal, specifically Christians. And I hear God's voice in a lot of different ways, so don't get freaked out. It's not like some booming voice, but I hear God's voice in the scriptures, I hear God's voice in prayer. I I have, you know, all the different ways, but he's just so good that he wants us healed and he will speak to his children to to make it happen, to see it come to fruition.

SPEAKER_00: 3:07

Absolutely, absolutely, you know, and and I'm curious, Heather, you you said you used to do accounting. What was that transition like for you? Because I know that's that's quite a shift.

SPEAKER_01: 3:17

It is a shift. So uh I when I had babies, all I wanted to do was be their mom. And I did that, you know, for at least a year or more for each of them. And the last one, I was thinking, okay, I'm gonna have this baby, I'm gonna send the other two off to school. And I'm like, I was just so excited. I was gonna like not work at least for a I was thinking a you know, a year, but God had other plans. And my uh middle child was in second grade there, and he wasn't doing really well, and he was like, He's needing me to be homeschooled, basically. And I had no desire to do that, like 0.0 in the negative desire. Even my mom recalls me saying, I'll never homeschool him. That's weird. And I'm like, uh, okay, got you say what you'll do, and God will laugh at you. But he started putting that desire in me to homeschool him. And so I started, you know, at a a lot when I had my newborn, I was home learning how to homeschool. And so now I'm in year eight of homeschooling and doing things different. So, and it's not like God throws away everything that we learned before. I I love that that I learned how to do accounting and now I run a business, and so it it builds on it, and also I have the teacher uh calling in my life, yeah, spiritual side of it, and it I've never got formally trained on how to teach people, but that teacher side of me is in there, and I'm able to figure out how to do it with the homeschooling, and so it all blends together, right?

SPEAKER_00: 4:53

That's amazing, yeah, absolutely. I love that, yeah. And and that's kind of this the same thing of you know being sensitive to the Lord's calling is that sometimes so out of left field, you're like, is this real? Is this actually happening? And you go through it, and again, the Lord provides along the way. So I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Well, Heather, we're gonna be talking about how to remove fear from our relationship with God. Um, on this podcast, I talk a lot about attachment styles, and this topic was of interest to me because fear is one of those driving forces for someone who's anxiously attached. Um, the fear is will my needs ever be met? The fear can be, you know, is God gonna hurt me? Are people in the church gonna hurt me? There could be a bunch of different fears, and I know this is one of the topics that you enjoy talking about as well. And you talk about fear being more of a symptom, not the root. Can you elaborate a little bit about that and maybe even share what you see fear as how that contributes to a relationship with God?

SPEAKER_01: 5:54

Well, yeah, so fear actually, okay, so it could be a symptom because a lot of times what we're thinking and feeling, we love to go by our feelings in this world. I mean, how many people are like, well, I felt this, so I did this, and I'm like, that's not biblical. But our feelings are so powerful and they tell us what to do sometimes. If we're not being led by the spirit, we're gonna be led by something. And our feelings are so loud and they seem so reasonable, and fear is a feeling. It's it's it well, it can be, it can be a feeling, it can be a thought, it can be uh a natural God-given thing. You know, a bear's coming at you and you you need to run, okay. That fear and that feeling, they go hand in hand and they're telling you what to do, and you should obey when it's a bear running at you. But uh, it's a symptom. Like fear is a symptom of, hey, there's a bear coming, so I'm gonna run. And so it's a it's telling us what to do. But there's other places in our life where fear is not, it's not just a natural thing that we need to follow. And I say it's a symptom because a lot of times we feel anxious, we feel anxiety, we feel worried, uh, whatever word you want to put it in there. And all that to say it's a symptom of what you're thinking or maybe what you've experienced in the past. Because our experiences feel like truth to us. They key word here, feel they aren't our truth, they feel like truth. Um, so we could go in a lot of different directions with this. Ask me more questions.

SPEAKER_00: 7:29

Yeah, no, I think that's a good point. So feeling like truth versus it actually being true. So, for example, I guess the one that comes to mind is um my parents were not attentive to my needs, right? Uh, my parents mistreated me, could be an example. So that is true that did happen. So, how would you distinguish that from okay, that do you uh affirm that they did experience that, but then work with the feeling? Like how would you navigate that process?

SPEAKER_01: 8:00

Okay, this is a great question. I love this. Here's what I do. I the word truth, okay, and this isn't just semantics for me. Uh, it might sound like it for a minute, but just stick with me here. The word truth to me means the word Jesus because Jesus said, I am the truth. Okay, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. And so if it's not in the Bible, it's not truth. If it's not Jesus, it's not truth, but it can be a fact. It's a fact that you experienced that. You did experience that. That's that that's the fact.

SPEAKER_03: 8:33

Interesting. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:35

Okay, and then but the but are there any lies that you believe in that? Did any lies seep in that, well, they didn't take care of me, so no one will. See how that's yes, it's it seems reasonable, but it's not true. And sometimes we have these thoughts that go on in our mind that says, This is a reasonable thought. That if I just stay at home, I'll be safe. If I don't go out there, or if I stay in my room, I'll be safe. If I stay isolated, I'll be safe from the people that are in the rest of the house, whatever it is. And so it's it seems reasonable, but it's not the truth. Because the truth will set you free. But right now you're isolated and alone and full of fear. You see what I'm saying? So it's not necessarily it's not really semantics here, it's really understanding. Okay, that if the truth will set me free, why am I still bound? And if I'm still if I'm bound, then this isn't truth. This is what I've experienced, and it's a fact. And so I hope that helps. It's um, it's really helped me in figuring out how to help people and use all the right words.

SPEAKER_00: 9:39

No, no, that I think that makes sense. So fact versus truth, and when you say truth, you're talking about Jesus as the truth. Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me, right? So in that, I think there's this piece of well, the way that we find God is through through Christ, right? He's the truth. That's how we find him. Um and for people who have experienced something negative in their life, what's what's something that creates the most fear for Christians? Uh, do you think? Um, what what are some of the things that you hear with your clients or people that you work with that they're afraid of in their relationship with God that they're believing about themselves?

SPEAKER_01: 10:19

In the relationship with God, I would say they're afraid to trust him. It's probably at the top of the list, afraid to trust him. And uh there's also this fear of well, okay, there's so many fears. Let me just like throw some spaghetti on the wall here. You've got fear of man, you've got fear of feeling powerless, fear of being rejected, fear of uh you name it, and there's this this great scripture in first John chapter four, and you might know part of it, but I wonder if if you've heard all of well, you know it, but you know, the listeners, like it says perfect love expels all fear. So we're talking about fear here. And I would say, so if that's true, if perfect love expels all fear, then the opposite of fear is love, not faith. And so in this world in the USA, we keep we've got this phrase going on, faith over fear. And it sounds good, but I'm like, that doesn't even make sense. Because here's what I'm dealing with. I'm dealing with the fact that I'm I'm working with clients day after day who have faith in their fear. Faith has protected their faith in fear, has protected them, their fear has protected them. In other words, I was I was talking to you about isolation, like they fear what might happen. So there's the fear of the unknown, there's the fear of uh, I don't know what's fixing to happen. And and all of these fears, they feel like protection. They're keeping them safe. So they have faith in their fear. And so if you have faith in your fear, then you don't have faith in God, and God is love, and perfect love expels all fear. So it's like this you can't ever get to the freedom part if you don't have faith in God, and then you have all of the love that will expel all fear. Uh I like to go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 12:19

No, no, yeah, no, it's is it only in their relationship with God then? So, what would that look like when you're talking about having faith in God? Because I think most people, because we have a different version, I guess, in our minds, and you you did a great job earlier about describing what it could look like, but what would it look like to have faith in God?

SPEAKER_01: 12:40

So you want trust, you want to trust God. You want, and some people say, I've I've done it the best that I could. I'm trusting him the best that I could, but also I have um I have several people that say they feel like they're missing the mark. They're that they can't trust him for his fine for their finances, and so they're wrapped up in fear and anxiousness, anxiety and worries. Let's just go with the financial example. I think a lot of people could resonate with that. So they're not trusting God, they don't have faith in God to meet their financial needs. Maybe they've never experienced it happening. And and I I could raise my hand for that. I remember a time when I was full of anxiety, so the world was dizzy, panic attacks, wondering about this financial bill that was not gonna get paid. And I'm the accountant here, and I'm like, I can't figure this out. Like, it's not the math, doesn't add up. There's no enough money in the bank, God. And he's like, But can you trust me? And I'm like, how can I trust you? You've never done this for me before. And sometimes we think about that in in the world, like we can't we can't trust people because they we've never experienced them working out. The relationships don't usually work out, so we don't trust all men are X, Y, Z. We we can't trust all men, like we just put them in this whole bucket and instead of this one particular circumstance where it didn't work out. And and my point is we can't we might not can trust God for our finances because he's never done it before, but what can we trust him for? Did the sun rise today? Did did the moon come out when it was supposed to? Can we trust him that he's got all of the stars hanging and perfectly you know working out? Can we trust that we are gonna have our next next breath? I mean, we're not guaranteed it, but somehow it just keeps coming. I'm giving basic examples here, but we can trust him for things that we haven't maybe even considered.

SPEAKER_00: 14:31

Yeah, yeah. As you were sharing that, I'm sorry, the no, no, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, as you were sharing that, I started thinking about oftentimes I think we we trust God for the outcome and not for the process. Oh, right. So we're waiting for the outcome to happen. And because we're waiting for it to happen, we we we get anxious about that. But the process, and I think kind of maybe what you're alluding to is we're trusting God's character, yeah who he says that he is, he says I'm faithful, he says I'm loving, he says I'm gonna care for you. So we're trusting in that truth, going back to your original point, that truth of who he is as a person, as a father to us.

SPEAKER_03: 15:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 15:11

And the outcome may not be what we want because I think that's what people also think when they're saying, Well, what I prayed for didn't happen. Maybe it's not what you needed. I don't know. You know, it could be something like that, right? So I think sometimes that idea of trust is people think that if they had if they're praying for something and that outcome doesn't happen, they start to lose their trust in God in a sense. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 15:35

Yeah. That's a perfect example. No, that's a perfect example. So when um uh there's this there's this thing that to trust God, uh, I keep thinking of the scripture, trust and obey, for it's the only way. So to trust God and obey means there's a formula here. It says he'll keep in perfect peace those who trust him and fix their thoughts on him. And so if you have anxiety and worry, then you haven't trusted him and put your thoughts in him, and you're like, okay, I don't know how to trust him. And I would like to help you with that. To trust him is a lot like you said, it's it's believing by faith in something you can't do, only he can. There's this faith element that we miss in all of this. It's like we want to do stuff, we're like human doings instead of human beings, right? And we we want to do, do, do. And the only thing he wants you to do is to love God and love your neighbor as you love yourself. That's the only thing he's asking of you to love you. Love God, love your neighbor as you love yourself. And to trust him means if I do those three things, he's gonna come through. And that doesn't even make sense because that seems too easy, right?

SPEAKER_00: 16:44

Right. Or people, us as people, we're not like that either. You know, so going back to that aspect of sometimes we we miss that, or because we fail once and when in a while, we have the inability to to trust God because we base it off of our experiences with each other. But God is not us, He's not us.

SPEAKER_01: 17:00

That's true. Yeah, that's true. Okay, so you just went there. I want to go there for just a second. I was talking with this with a client, uh, I think yesterday, we were talking about trust. And um, the person that she needed to get trust in, this is a human, she couldn't figure out because you know, experience says that it's not gonna work out if if we put our trust in them. They're not gonna show up, they're not gonna be reliable, they're they're not gonna be trustworthy. And I'm thinking about that, and I think about the word trust, forgiveness and love, they actually all go hand in hand. Let me let me help you. Let me let me connect the dots because it doesn't seem like it does, but it does. Okay. Uh forgiveness is me choosing to forgive you. I don't go by my feelings. Now, I we we could talk about forgiveness for days, right? But if I could just tell you the definition of forgiveness, it's a choice. It's not a feeling, it's it's a choice to do it. Now you there's there's steps, right? There's the process, it and there's healing involved, but forgiveness ultimately, bottom line, is a choice. No one's gonna make you do it, no one can make you do it, honestly. And I would I I would take the that the same way with love. So God has given us this free will to choose him or not choose him, to love and obey him or not. He says there's blessings if you do, if you if you do what he says and you follow his ways, there's blessings. It's full-on free will. You get to choose. And it's always for your good. He's always got good things planned for you, but it's always your choice. So it's your choice to forgive, it's your choice to love, and then you go to trust. And in the human world, what okay, I'm spiritual here. I my husband's like, you make everything too spiritual. I'm like, no, everything's spiritual. But when it comes to trust, the human world, everyone wants to say trust is earned. And I want to say in the spiritual world, trust is a choice. Okay, I know no one likes that. Everyone's like, turning me off right now. Trust is a choice. And so, yes, experience says I can't trust them, but okay, let me just let me just take this one little little level deeper. What if your trust isn't in the human, but it's in God using that human for your good? Okay, let me give you an example. We love stories, right? Okay, so my last baby, I was uh, I did not want to have an epidural because the first two, it quote unquote didn't work. It was just a mess. And I was like, I just don't want to do that. Let's just not do that. But before I went into labor, I prayed and I prayed this prayer. God, I don't want to have the epidural. This is my I'm telling you what I want. But I said, but I know you know what's best, and whatever the doctors and nurses and the medical people want me to do, I'm gonna do and I'm gonna trust that they are being led by you. Okay, so I'm putting my trust in God through them. I'm gonna say, I don't, I don't, and I had the same. Midwife for all my babies, okay. All three. Even this one that was fixed to come out was was still in charge of this one. And the you know, she wasn't giving me the epidural, but she was in charge of telling me I needed it. All to say, um, the third baby was coming. The pain was so bad, and I'm, you know, I'm toughen it out. I don't mean that epidural. I'm fine. She she literally she came in, she checked me, and she left running, physically running, to go get the the doctor guy who does the epidurals who was getting in his car, literally yanked him out of the car to bring him back to me. And and I needed the epidural is what I want to say. I didn't want it, but I needed it. And she knew I needed it. In fact, I I don't have any proof behind this, but I think that it saved my life. I think that I was in so much pain that it would have killed me. And I don't have any proof to tell you that, but I feel like that's what God revealed to me later that I put my trust in him to use the medical professionals. And so my my trust wasn't in the medical stuff, my trust was in God to use them appropriately for my life, whether they were serving God or not, it didn't even matter. I hope that messes with you a little bit too. I put my trust in God for the people around me, and I do that regularly now. I'm like, God knows what I need. And so if you go to the doctor, you go to the XYZ, like, God, I trust that you are gonna put in a desire in them to give me the right medicine or the right information or the right whatever. And so trust is a choice, but who are you putting your trust in? Is it in people or in God? Because God is trustworthy. And go back to what you said a minute ago. We put God, we put our trust in God's character. He says he's faithful and consistent and trustworthy. And so he is. He can't not lie. Yeah, I hope that helped.

SPEAKER_00: 21:46

I no, that's good. That was a really good example. You know, when you when you said that, it started to remind me a lot, because you said this real very clearly. You said, um, whatever it is that you think I need, communicate that to them, right? So you didn't pray for a specific outcome. You didn't say, I don't want the epidural, please let lead them in that direction. And I think most people, when we're praying for those things, we pray specifics. I want this, I want to marry this person, I want this outcome for my school, I want this job, and so on. But we don't pray through the process like you did, about whatever you think I need, communicate that to them. And it very much also reminded me of Abraham and Isaac, right? I mean, the outcome did not look good, right? Uh-huh. Go sacrifice your son. But Abraham trusted who God was. And that's the whole thing. He obeyed throughout the process, and when it got time to sacrifice his son, God stopped him. So I I think there, I think that's that was very helpful to understand that we pray for the process and for God to use people to communicate to us. And I think he does that quite often too.

SPEAKER_01: 22:56

Yeah. And all to the point of fear. We're talking about fear. And so there's so much anxiety about, well, I don't want the epidural. I don't, yeah, or I want to pay this financial bill and I want it paid today. And there's so much anxiety and angst about it. But what when we actually put our trust in God, we will have perfect peace. Let me go back to that scripture. He will keep in perfect peace those who trust me and keep their thoughts fixed on me. So if your thoughts are fixed on anxiety and worry and I can't ever make this work out, this bill is not going to get paid, what if all of those negative what ifs, you're not, then your thoughts aren't fixed on him. And you he can't keep you in perfect peace. And then if you're not putting your trust in his character and who he says he is, he says he's provider, he says he's healer, he says he's faithful. And so if he says all those things and you just, okay, God, you said you said you got this. So I'm gonna lay it down and I'm gonna think about something else right now. It's almost a choice. Yeah, you see how I'm saying this is all your choice. Because I can't tell you what to think about. I can't change your thoughts and rewire them for you. You have to do it yourself, you have to choose it.

SPEAKER_00: 24:10

Yeah, and how hard is that, Heather, for when you're working with clients? Because I it's such a hard thing. So, you know, in counseling, I see the same thing where some people they're very cognitive, meaning that if you can get them to think the right things, it changes their the way that they act, the way that they behave, even the way that they experience things. For others, it's they experience something and that affects their thoughts. So for them, I usually work with, okay, let's kind of get some self-regulation going, some coping techniques to regulate your body, and then we can start thinking clearly with your clients. Like, how is that like the biggest challenge to just get them to think differently about um their thoughts that they're having?

SPEAKER_01: 24:46

Yeah, so I've got both going on, just like you just said. Some are like, yep, I'm gonna, I'm gonna manage my thoughts, and some are like, I don't know how. And so there's a couple of different ways. I love the the way that you said we deal with the body first. I do that too. And so I I use a spiritual warfare kit. I I have them make a spiritual warfare kit, and it could be like in a little pouch, uh, something that you could tote with you. And so inside of it, you would have this little list that I would give you to print out that says step one, um, turn on worship music. Step two, put the sucker in your mouth. So in the warfare kit, we might have something that's sour, like a warhead.

SPEAKER_03: 25:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 25:30

And so you so step two, put the lemon warhead in your mouth. Sometimes when you're having the panic attack and your your thoughts are going crazy, you can't think you can't think straight. So you're reading this. Okay, I put the worship music on, I got the warhead in my mouth, and then take deep breaths, right? So we have we do have to deal with the body before we can ever do with the spiritual. And there are spiritual prayers that is gonna work, but first you have to address the fact that you can't breathe. Let's just get real. You have to breathe before you can pray the devil away. And sometimes there is a devil, and we just need to pray. But yes, we have to deal with all of the situation. We're body, soul, and spirit, and we want to deal with all of it together. Um, and and yes, there's some people that it's harder to do this. So we we got the spiritual warfare kit, but also I have just basic checklists. And I would say to you, what you do in your time when you're not spazzing out is really important for when you are spazzing out.

SPEAKER_00: 26:25

Yep. That's a great point.

SPEAKER_01: 26:26

So if you have like this, I call it a love list. Okay, so spiritual disciplines need to be done out of love, not performance, not a check, it's not a checklist just to say I've accomplished it, but you got this love list of I'm gonna read my Bible, worship, and pray today, but also I'll add in some declarations. I'm gonna declare God's word, and I usually have something specific. So if I'm working with you and I know you're struggling with uh fear, I might have with you. So I'll even show you. I don't know if you have my if you have a visual, but like I have a phone screen that says it talks about perfect love. So God has not given me a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind. It's on my phone screen. So this is something like you could have a sticky note, you could have a um a timer come up on your phone regularly. You're regularly declaring God's not giving me a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind. And so in your downtime, whenever you're not spazzing out, you're saying that. So when you are spazzing out, it just flows out of you. Yeah, that's so I think that's really important to um to it's part of renewing your mind. Romans 12, too. You are supposed to renew your mind, and in fact, you you are in charge of it. It let God renew your mind, but also how are you letting him do it? It's not he's not just zapping you, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 27:43

We do want the God zap, but also he's like, Can you read the word?

SPEAKER_02: 27:47

Yeah, exactly. Can you declare it?

SPEAKER_01: 27:50

Can you pray a little bit? So some of it's our our part, some of it's our part, right?

SPEAKER_00: 27:54

Yeah, yeah. No, and you made some great points there. One of them is there was some uh a research article that I read maybe a week or two ago, and basically it talked about that the things that we repeat to ourselves, even if they're untrue, we tend to believe. So imagine to your point, you're repeating this truth in scripture to yourself all the time, that it starts to take space in your mind, in your heart, right? And you know, the other point that you made that was also excellent was it's not just when the fear comes, like this has to be something that's part of your day when you are calm and when you're just having a cup of coffee, you're meditating on the word. Like it's in those moments that kind of prepare you for when you do have that anxious thought or when you when you do have that fear, now you're ready because you're already armed. You've been practicing over and over. And what I found clients doing is that they would wait until that came and they would try to implement it, and it doesn't work because you're too over uh uh dysregulated.

SPEAKER_01: 28:50

Uh-huh. Yeah, it's too much. And even like as you were talking, I was thinking, even having the spiritual warfare kit is preemptive.

unknown: 28:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:57

I have it, I know where it is, it's readily available. I'll go get it and it'll tell me exactly what to do when I can't think straight. Because I totally get that when you can't think straight, but did you prepare it in advance? And so inside of it, you might have the declarations, you might have like some sticky notes, you might have the um tactile things to touch, feel, taste, see, but you also might have the scriptures that you can quote that you can't think of right offhand, but you've prepared it in the time when you're not having anxiety.

SPEAKER_00: 29:30

Yeah, absolutely. No, that's great. You know, Heather, I I'm curious. You know, you talk a little bit about of maybe how you um heal from fear, or and can you share a little bit about that? Because I know usually the the ministries or the burdens that we have for others stem from something that we've experienced ourselves. Uh, can you share a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01: 29:53

Yeah, I I used to share, I used to say it so plainly. Oh, I had a trauma in my college age years and it just made me. And then I would tell you all the symptoms that it gave me. But this year, God's asking me to kind of up the ante and tell you a little bit more because the more you understand that I don't have it all together, maybe you'll you'll think I have something to offer. I I my story is like it's I wasn't hurt, no one actually touched me. I didn't go through a death or a war, no one died. And the things that happened to me were emotional. I had a brother that was uh doing some things that he shouldn't do. He was getting into uh things that like stealing and uh drugs and going to prison. And I was still living at home. I was the good girl, you know, I was a good girl, not not doing any. I was in college doing all getting all the grades and uh planning to get married. I was engaged, but not. I was gonna wait a minute till I finished college. And anyways, all that to say he he made my environment feel so unsafe. So at night I would, you know, I I would go to sleep and I would wake up and my car would be gone, or anything I left in my car would be stolen, or somehow they my life was just not safe. And I might not be describing it all that well. And my parents did the best that they could. I love them. And we we left Jesus, we went to church every Sunday. So here's me sitting on the pew every every Sunday and just feeling traumatized by I don't feel safe in my own home, but nothing's physically happy, so I can't tell you my story because you don't even like this, doesn't it? And I've learned now, now I have words to say, your trauma is not defined by you know what happened to you, but what it what it's doing to you.

SPEAKER_03: 31:39

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01: 31:40

I I I wouldn't even tell you my story before. So that's part of my story. It and you know, the symptoms would be like I did get married, I I hurried up and got married in two months, and I I still had all my baggage. I went to bed crying every night. I woke up in the middle of the night just to throw up because of the depression. I couldn't go to bed without noise. I had to sleep with the TV, I had to double check the door lock. So I was living in fear and panics. I remember one time just freaking out in the it was it wasn't bedtime yet. I was just hearing all these noises, and we live out in the country, so there was you shouldn't be hearing no noises. Like you we just don't hear stuff. And if you hear and and it just wouldn't stop, and I and I'm like in the corner, and then all of a sudden it comes to me, oh, it's July 4th. Oh, uh, okay, those are fireworks, but I didn't know, and so the fear of the unknown was overwhelming me. Just it's just ridiculous. I laugh, I can laugh at it now because that's what fear did to me. But fear will regret the day it ever messed with me. I'm gonna tell you what, I got mad at the devil. I started learning how to hear God's voice. God, I started, well, okay, I didn't tell you my whole story, but I I went through depression and I went through it for about a decade. And I stayed on depression medicines before I ever figured out why I was sad.

SPEAKER_00: 32:53

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01: 32:54

The doctor just said, I think you need this. And I was like, I think I do too.

SPEAKER_00: 32:58

It's one of my biggest pet peeves.

SPEAKER_01: 33:00

I never questioned it. I didn't know you could question the doctor. I didn't know. I didn't, I'm like, yes, sir, just give me what I need. And one day I came to myself and I was like, why am I on this medicine? And I know it was the Holy Spirit prompting me, and I started trying to figure out what what uh what what is wrong with me because it doesn't make sense from what happened. Maybe in your world it does because you've got all of the training and stuff, but I didn't have all the training and what happened to me, no one hurt me. I wasn't abused physically. I no one died, I didn't go through a war. And so the the fact that I had so much fear in my life didn't make sense. But I didn't feel safe, I didn't feel taken care of, I didn't feel chosen. Like my parents were taking care of him, not me, not the good one. And so I felt rejected. There's fear of rejection that was huge in my life. Fear of abandonment was there. Unworthy, I'm not worthy of being taken care of. He needs all the help. There's so all so you did.

SPEAKER_00: 33:56

Did you feel a sense of shame for having those feelings?

SPEAKER_01: 33:59

Yeah. Shame kept me quiet and shut up. It wasn't until this year that I could even tell you my testimony. Like, I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't want to, you know, bad, and I'm not bad mouthing my parents. They did the best that they could, they did the best that they know how. And that's all we ever do, right? But it it now I can glorify God and say, but look what God did.

SPEAKER_03: 34:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:19

So now I'm saved, healed, and delivered. And God has radically set me free. And and and it all happened by learning how to hear his voice.

SPEAKER_03: 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:27

His his voice, I started journaling. I started hearing that I started remembering my dreams at night. And in the day, I'm like, God, what did that mean? I didn't know God was talking to me through my dreams until I started pursuing it. And I'm like, oh, this is how I hear God's voice. I hear him in dreams, and he would give me interpretations. I got radically filled with the Holy Spirit. And yeah, that that'll mess with your your theology when you didn't know what you didn't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:55

I appreciate you sharing that, Heather. Um, you know, there's there are some listeners who have that experience of um feeling the shame because they feel like they didn't maybe experience anything traumatic, but all of those experiences do say something about um areas in our lives that do need healing. Now, there's two two usual cases that happen. So for some, you know, they come to know the Lord or they have some revelation of some sort and they feel fully healed. There's others who get there, who get to know the Lord, are saved, and they actually feel a lot of shame because why ain't why am I not feeling healed yet? Why am I still struggling with this? So for them, it's also communicating that could this be one of those lifelong things where you're consistently trusting the Lord to work through that process, right? Kind of the the whole idea is the the Paul situation, right? His the thorn in his side wasn't removed, right? It wasn't removed. So what is that? Is that is this one of those things that's going to be ongoing? You know, what are your thoughts on that? Because there was an expression there.

SPEAKER_01: 36:01

You you might have triggered me a little bit. I I have I have way too many people who use the Paul excuse. Oh, it's just a thorn in my side. Uh I'll I'm like, are you Paul? I just don't know. I just don't know about that because I'm not. Okay, I want to say one of my biggest missions that I feel in this season is to help the Christian know that we don't need to keep managing what Jesus came to save, heal, and deliver us from. I was managing it with depression medicines instead of getting to the root of it. Jesus came to heal me completely. He came to save me completely and he came to deliver me completely. I believe he came to do all three and not just wait till I get to heaven, but he wants heaven on earth. And in order to do that, we have to quit managing the things that he came and he died for. He didn't just die for our sins, he died that fear would be eradicated, that perfect love would expel all fear. He came that we would be set free from addictions and bondage to addictions and bondage to the sin. I mean, I ache for the Christian who's sitting on the pew and they're still in bondage to the things that they know. They're like, I know this is sin, but I can't stop doing it. And I'm raising my hand because I I was that person. And as I grew closer to God and started learning how to hear his voice, I wanted to know how to quit having outbursts of anger. And in my I I see it now. Like I was working with someone this morning who was like, I don't know, this isn't me. I don't, I don't know why. I'm just like, there's just this one thing, and I just go crazy. And I don't want to do that. And I'm like, oh, honey, you're talking to the right person. I know exactly what's going on here. And I ache for you to hear that, that you're not the only one going through this. But God does want to set you free. We got to quit managing it and we got to address it, we got to name it. And so through prayer, we ask, we're asking Holy Spirit, okay, we we see this thing here, but what is she afraid of? What is its name? And sometimes we call it spirit of fear or spirit of anger. And I'm like, okay, maybe that's what it is. But why are you angry? Why are you afraid? What what what is down there that you haven't forgiven? I feel like there's someone that you need to forgive if you got anger. And that's how that's how God has shown me. There's there's pieces to the puzzle, and there are people that can help you, like just like Sam, he he can help you get down to the root of the issue. You don't have to manage it anymore, right? And so that's my heart's desire is like, let's quit managing it and get down to the root of it. What it what are you afraid of? So for her, for instance, it was fear of um, there's well, hers was so unique, but maybe I need I feel like I need to speak it out. Am I allowed to let the spirit lead here?

SPEAKER_00: 38:41

Sure, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01: 38:42

Like she was she it was in marriage, and there was duty. She was she was addressing marriage for 15 years of her beautiful marriage as it was a duty because she didn't understand that God loves marriage. She thought it had to be oppressive, it had to be. She didn't know that there was another option, and I'll tell you the truth will set you free. And she knew the truth. She was like, she was aching. She was like, I think that this isn't right. Like, yeah, you're right. It's not, it's not marriage is supposed to be beautiful. God is love, he would never say, go get married so that you could be a slave the rest of your life. No, he wants you to get married because it's beautiful, it's it's there's love there, there's love available. So there was fear of uh marriage being wrong, anyways. We had to you have to name the thing, you have to get down to the bottom of it, and God loves to help us get to the bottom of it.

SPEAKER_00: 39:34

Yeah. I think when we start digging into some of that story, as you're as you're saying, kind of like when we start digging, we're not liking what we're seeing, so we stop digging, right? Oh, so there's no not enough digging. Um, and I think when you have someone, whether it be a counselor, a director, spiritual leader, who's not forcing, but who's moving into that space and Exploring with them and giving more space to go deeper, you know, they've never been put in that position. So now they're kind of in a way forced to go. And you start to see right the different layers that are actually there. Um, you know, and there's so many thoughts also as well on the idea of um, yeah, what is this this idea of of thorn in my side? Yeah. Right. Uh, what was that in reference to? Because then we can also reference Job and his experience as well.

SPEAKER_01: 40:28

So oh, that's a whole another trigger too. I'm like, are you talking about that?

SPEAKER_00: 40:32

So there's a lot of these things I think that, at least for the audience, as you as you're listening, there are these moments where you know you're gonna experience full healing. Uh, again, that could be from from anything. But then there's this other piece of maybe suffering is also what keeps us close to God.

SPEAKER_01: 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:51

You know, maybe that's also this piece of if everything were okay, when would I turn to God?

SPEAKER_04: 40:58

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00: 40:59

And I think it it throughout our our our life experiences, I think those are some of the things that we start to see is that we, when we go through something difficult, we start to trust God. And then that strengthens our faith so that when things are well, we're still sticking close to Him. And there's something else that may happen. Again, there's all it's just life in general. The Bible does promise, as we see in Revelation, one day there will be no more tears, yeah, no more pain, no more suffering.

SPEAKER_01: 41:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 41:26

And um, and that's I look forward to that, Heather. I know we we both look forward to that that you know, there's there's this uh element of I know that this is temporary, that the Lord is gonna come soon, hopefully sooner than than we than we think. Um, but all that's to say, on top of that, we can still have a thriving, good, solid relationship with Christ as we draw closer to Him.

SPEAKER_01: 41:48

Yeah, I'm thinking like God also promises temptation and you can be tempted without sin. He also promises trials and tribulations, but they don't have to destroy you. In fact, they could grow you. Absolutely apart from trials. I don't think it's possible to grow apart from trials. You your perseverance grows in that. So maybe you're thinking it's a thorn in your flesh, but I would question to you is it something that you're managing and you just you don't want to get to the root of, or you haven't found the right person to pray with you to get to the root of? Because yeah, Paul was praying. I think it says he prayed three times for God to remove it, and he, I mean, he he he knew how to get to the throne room. And when God says leave it alone, then you leave it alone. But has God really said that to you, or are you just copying out because it's hard?

SPEAKER_00: 42:45

Yeah, yeah. No, that's a great point. Yeah, great point. Digging deeper, having people around you who can help you get to that point as well.

SPEAKER_01: 42:54

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00: 42:56

Well, this has been great, Heather. I you know, usually as as we're talking about this, is there anything that I missed, anything that you would like to share with the audience regarding this topic that we may not have covered?

SPEAKER_01: 43:06

You know, perfect love expels all fear. And so if you are afraid, the scripture continues. I think I I started this point earlier. The scripture continues says if you are afraid, it's for fear of punishment. And I've kind of learned through the different layers that God's showing me that there's different levels of fear. And yes, there can be lots of levels of devils and this and that, but fear in general, you either have fear of man or you have fear of the Lord. And fear of man is really fear of punishment. So in some regard, you're fearing punishment, and it's not all about your salvation. Although that scripture talks about like perfect love expels all fear. Like you should know you're going to heaven. There shouldn't be anything to be afraid of. Even if you die, there's nothing to be afraid of. And some people are afraid of death. And I'm like, are you in love with God? Because you're not supposed to fear death. Now there's reasonable thoughts of it, but don't keep your thoughts fixed on it. And so fear of punishment has been something that God's really been highlighting in this season for me and for a lot of the people that I'm talking to. Fear of punishment goes in a lot of ways. We can we can see it play out when we're where fear of punishment is you're not gonna be witnessing, you're not gonna be uh digging deeper, your your mouth might be covered, you might be like shrieking back and not saying what you want to say. Fear of punishment is really silencing the body of Christ. And I'm I'm saying perfect love expels all that. So if you have fear of punishment in your life, you're gonna find yourself quiet, you're gonna find yourself where your God confidence isn't rising, you're gonna find yourself where uh you just shrink back. And I would say perfect love expels all fear. So what kind of fear? Name the fear. Is it fear of punishment? Is it fear of being alone? Is it fear of abandonment? Is it fear of the unknown? Is it a fear of what? If you can name the specific kind of fear, because the Bible talks about fear, he says it's not giving you a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind. But what kind of fear are you facing? If you know its name, you can tell it to go. Isn't that good news?

SPEAKER_03: 45:13

That's good. That's good.

SPEAKER_01: 45:15

Naming it is so powerful, it's so powerful. And so that's what I would leave you with is name the fear. Don't just call it fear, name the fear. Fear of what and why, where to get in. And that's how you can get free from it.

SPEAKER_00: 45:28

Awesome. That's great. Thank you thank you, Heather. Heather, for those who are listening, how can they find you? I know you have a podcast as well.

SPEAKER_01: 45:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:35

And yeah, share with us a little bit about that. And where can the audience find you?

SPEAKER_01: 45:39

Yeah. So I have a podcast called Heal with God. I would love to get you get to know you over there. There's hours of free training. And then every third Monday of the month, I offer a free live workshop where we can come and heal the root of the of whatever's going on. Maybe you got the thorn in the flesh, and I'm like, let's get that thorn out. I want to help you get that thorn out. So every third Monday of the month, you can come to this is free. Go to HeatherObrien.net slash workshop and you can sign up today and be ready for the next one. And I'd love to see you there.

SPEAKER_00: 46:11

That's awesome. Heather, thank you again for being on the on the show. I really appreciate it. I love this conversation. We also had a previous conversation. So um I'm looking forward to when we release these. Thank you again, guys, and I'll see you next time.