When Church Hurts: Reimagining A Safe Attachment To God w/ Carley Marcouillier

When faith and harm collide, the quiet question under the surface is often the hardest: why would God allow this? We sit down with therapist Carley Marcouillier to name moral injury, trace the subtle red flags of spiritual abuse, and map a steady, humane path back to safety and a secure attachment to God. This is not a takedown; it’s a toolkit for survivors, friends, and leaders who want to cultivate healthier, more honest communities.

We unpack how control, consequence, compliance, and culture can bend a church toward fear, and how spiritual learned helplessness teaches people to distrust the Spirit’s voice within them. From dress codes to stage access to who gets believed, we show how shame and threat seep into the body and shape a fear-based image of God. Then we pivot toward repair: creating real safety (even if that means stepping back from church for a season), telling the truth in front of empathic witnesses, grieving what was lost, and reconstructing a faithful imagination of God’s heart. Along the way, we revisit the Bereans’ discernment, explore language that helps men bridge head and heart, and offer simple attachment markers—feeling seen, safe, and soothed by God—as guides for your next step.

What emerges isn’t perfection, but a way forward: bodies that don’t brace at Scripture, leaders who welcome questions, and communities that practice rupture and repair. If you’ve wondered whether your discomfort is a warning light, or if you’ve asked why and felt dismissed, you’ll find clarity, validation, and practical next moves here.

If this conversation serves you, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with the red flag you’ll watch for next—your story might be the mirror someone else needs.

Follow and connect with Carley on IG @carleymarcouillier and also @edenholisticcounseling_lyh for more helpful information. 

Transcript

Welcome Back & Episode Focus

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Alright everyone, well welcome back again to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm so thankful that you're here. Uh if you're listening right now, you're probably catching part two of my interview with Carly Marculier on spiritual abuse and religious trauma. And today we're gonna talk about what this looks like for the believer who has experienced this, what that healing process can look like. We'll look at uh things like moral injury, impact, um, why did God allow this to happen, and even provide some steps of what healing may look like for you. So um thank you for for being here. And Carly, thanks for being here again.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yeah, absolutely. Glad to be here.

Defining Moral Injury Versus Religious Trauma

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Yeah. So, you know, in the last episode that we were um uh having a conversation on this, we mostly spoke about what spiritual abuse, religious trauma, what it is, what it looks like, um how it affects people within the church. And today our focus is more gonna be on the person who has experienced this and who has gone through some um spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and what the process can look like for them now moving forward. Um so so yeah, so that's where where we'll start today. And I'm sure many of you who are listening, if you've grown up in the church, it seems very likely that at some point you've experienced this. Um and if you maybe came to the Lord later on in life, you start to see some of these things and you're wondering, is this is this normal? Is this what church is like? And you may have some questions. So hopefully you gain some clarity after our conversation today. To start off, you mentioned this this concept of of moral injury, Carly. And for those who are listening, they may not know what that actually is. Um, and it seems to be kind of this type of conflict internally that people have. But yeah, can you elaborate and share more about what moral injury is?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Yeah, so in definitions, I know we talked a lot last episode about religious trauma, and I'll just kind of recap that because it kind of correlates to this. So if we think of the umbrella of this as religious trauma, and that is any trauma that has been experienced within a religious or motivated by religious context or system. Um, and so that that's a really broad, like religious trauma is a really broad topic, but we're really talking about harm, right? Harm is an aspect of uh what traumatizes us, harm and the lack of an empathic witness. Um, and so abuse, any form of abuse in a religious context would be considered um most likely traumatic, right? Or a religious trauma. The specific nature of what we would call moral injury is a little bit different because it's a it's psychological distress from violating one's core moral values, um, causing intense guilt, shame, anger, betrayal, um, often from actions during high-stakes situations. And so this could be, and I have a really good example of this, it's not necessarily a religious context, but it can give you an example of what moral injury is. I was at the pool this summer, and I saw like some children playing, and the parent, a parent of those children started literally screaming at his child. And it and this is in a public place, right? And my I don't do well with that. Um, and so there were so many parts of me that were like, I need to say something, right? So here's like a really good example of like what moral injury would be where I'm I'm witnessing an abusive situation happen, but I'm in a position that I my system is like, I can't say what do I do? How do I say something? Right. And so oftentimes in um religious context, in the culture that's created around maybe even abusive religious context, it can feel as though we're kind of watching things happen potentially, or actually being the victim of those things, or we're in this, like we're in the church like leadership and we're kind of involved in those things, but not necessarily because we want to be. We're just kind of caught up in it.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Um, and that can feel very violating. So it's like, I don't agree with this, but I don't know, right, based on the levels of what's happening around me, if I'm able to say anything because I might get hurt too. So it's a really complex feeling. And oftentimes people will be like, I haven't had religious trauma. Um, that's not my story. And then when we start talking about moral injury and the multiple experiences that they've maybe had, whether it's witnessing harm done in the church context or in the name of God, or if they themselves have been um not purposely but um like insinuated in it, right? I mean, this can happen too of just like being lumped in with the with Christians and then feeling as though like I don't want to be associated with people that are harming others, right? Like that can feel very much like dis um disaligned with who I am. And so that's a type of of moral um a type of religious trauma that can feel a little bit different than maybe having direct abuse from someone in the church or this this like developmental language around our goodness or badness, or um fear like deep fear and and and shame around ourselves within like a religious framework. So just to note, I think I say that just to note that that spiritual abuse can take on many forms. It doesn't necessarily have to be an event trauma, right? Like developmental traumas, these like we call it death by a thousand cuts, right? It's like these beliefs that we've been told over and over and over again, or these experiences that we're having that are just called normal, but in reality, like they're actually really harmful. And um those can also really impact us somatically, right? We're looking at anxiety and fear around religious contexts or fear of God and seeing God as a um someone who's gonna get us if we do the wrong thing, right? This is all kind of really um the I would say descriptive, not prescriptive, but some things, some symptoms that we might experience in light of um adverse spiritual experiences.

Early Red Flags And Subtle Control

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Yeah, yeah. You know, it made me curious about those those little things that people that we don't catch early on, but something goes off, right? There's some little alarm that goes off and says, I don't know how I feel about that. There's something off about what that is. And I also want to maybe um mention it, because I think this is important. I'm always reminded of Acts 17, 11, right? The Bereans um who were being taught by Paul, and even then they still went back to read the word to make sure that what Paul was saying was true, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

And oftentimes when we look at this, this uh this issue, one of the things that I think is is one of the problems, not the main one or the only one, um, but it's also our lack of reading scripture, because our understanding of God often comes from what we're being taught in the church or what people are telling us about God, but not from our own in-depth reading and studying scripture. And I share that because, like anything, if I don't have enough information, I can't really compare, right? The more exposure I have, and this is how I learned more about God's grace, is that, okay, yes, I see when my pastor was preaching or my dad was telling me a story about scripture that showed about God's judgment and his justice and punishment on the people of Israel. Like I saw that. But what about all these other instances too, where there's also grace and love and redemption and forgiveness? So as I start to read more and more scripture myself, that's when I start to have those questions is I don't think I was given the full picture of who God was and who God is, right? So it just as an as an encouragement, it's not a um, it's not something to track your points of, oh, I'm scoring points with God because I'm reading my Bible more, but rather this encouragement to read scripture so that you can start to evaluate what you're being taught and how that lines up with scripture. So the more you read, the more you'll be able to see whether what you're being taught actually lines up with scripture. So I just wanted to throw that out there.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

No, I love that. And I um I think it's um Adam Young. He talks, or I think it's Adam Young. I'll have to I'll link it for our show notes today. But there's an incredible podcast episode on this very topic that you're discussing where he says, you know, we're gonna either believe one of two people, we're gonna believe right what the Holy Spirit is giving to us and like what we're when we're coming to scripture and looking at it and like discerning, or we're gonna write, oftentimes there's this folding on, well, the pastor said it, so I'm gonna just take it.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

And in the spiritual abuse context, um, there's something called um spiritually spiritual learned helplessness, just like you know, this this idea of learned helplessness, but in a spiritual context where people learn this, they learn to um, I can't trust myself based on this language that of twisted scripture. Um, I I you know my thoughts are deceitful above all else. So therefore, whatever the pastor tells me is true, and I need other people to help me make my moral and spiritual decisions. And that can actually be quite damaging because then it's it's we have a a larger spiritual vulnerability because we're now entrusting that um kind of uh right that that I don't know, guiding light on another human being, right? And in and not saying, I'm gonna listen to what this person says, I'm gonna bring it back to the word of God, I'm gonna bring it back to what the spirit is telling me as well. And so I I think it's a really helpful thing to mention because oftentimes, especially in a in high control religious environments, there is a there is almost like a a trump card of like, well, it's uh the pastor said it. So we're gonna just take it for what it is instead of wrestling with it. Like if it doesn't feel good, I say to my clients all the time, like if you're having a hard time with that, like sit with it, let let the spirit do its work. It's you know, listen to it, like wrestle with it. I think that's really um helpful to name.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, I mean, if you're a Christian, you're gonna get prompted by the Holy Spirit to challenge those things, to to really wrestle with those things that don't feel right and don't align with your spirit. So yeah. So I just I just wanted to throw that out there. Um well yeah, okay. So talking about moral injury, giving some really good um uh definition. I love your example that you gave. That's that I mean that was very clear. Um so for people who are maybe trying to understand whether or not they've experienced it, I wonder if there's like those those small things that you were mentioning, um, those subtle things that maybe they need to look out for. Because I think most people just think about the extreme cases to inform the audience of, you know, not just these extreme cases where there have been sexual abuse in the church, there was physical abuse, or there was um uh, I don't know, gossiping about a certain person to oust them from a group, whatever the case. So these are very obvious, clear cases, right? But before getting to that point, there's a lot of other little things that start to happen that all of a sudden it's whoa, where did this come from? Right. So what are what are some of maybe those smaller things that people should be aware of before we jump into like have have you actually experienced this um religious trauma or spiritual abuse?

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yeah, so I I just want to clarify like symptom wise, like what someone would be experiencing, or just like um abusive context.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, I think I think both of them would be helpful. Uh so behaviors from leadership or even people within the church, it's not always just leadership, but there's people within the church too that can be very hurtful. Um, so yeah, behaviors that people do, those subtle small things could be controlling, right? Small controlling things like hey, stay away from so-and-so or whatever. And then um how that also impacts the person who's going through that or starting to see those things.

The Four C’s: Control, Consequence, Compliance, Culture

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah. Yeah, I think some good red flags on the Hillary, Dr. Hillary Bride um wrote a book recently called Holy Hurt, and it defines some factors that contribute to spaces of religious trauma and spiritual abuse. And so she uses like four C's, and I think it's just helpful for memory's sake. And so she says like control, like if there is a theme or a um high level of need in the in the religious system that you're in for control that is um eroding any sorts of source of agency or choice, personal power in a faith community, we need to start being curious about what that's about. Um, and so I think what I tend to see often in what was my experience was just controlling the dress code for specifically women, but it can be for men as well in some cases. Um and that sometimes can can feel like, well, yeah, we want to be modest, like that's a value of our community, and yet there's like a like unrealistic level of control on you can't get on stage unless you're wearing a skirt or something like intense where it's like there is a right and a wrong and there's almost this shame. So talking about like control and then noticing am I being impacted by control patterns in religious contexts, we have to ask the question like, where am I feeling afraid? Right? If if there is a am I is there a rule I feel like I'm breaking? And not necessarily um in relation to God, but it could be because oftentimes religious systems that are using control will also use God to weaponize people into submission. And so they'll say, Well, God will dot dot dot if you don't, dot, dot, dot, right? So um it's linked control is often linked to consequences, so the negative impact of non-compliance or adherence to whatever the rules are, and so we'll see this a lot with like messages of shame. I have experienced this as well. I was literally told once from a leader in a church context, regardless of how you how I speak to you, you have to submit to me. And I like it's like no, I don't.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

You said did you say that? That's great.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

No, um, and so but that I mean that type of language is like very controlling, right? And and very much asking for a compliance that's that oftentimes if we are in any sort of vulnerability, young, right, learning uh these contexts can create such a fear that we're we'll fold. It is it is human nature to fold on ourselves in order to maintain connection. And so what I think is so dangerous about spiritual abusive environments is that people will will literally choose to um doubt themselves and what their body is truly telling them in those moments in order to maintain right the connection, the belonging of a community. Yeah, and so um it's survival at that point, right? This is where that fight or flight kicks in, and we start noticing kind of that hypervigilance and that anxiety and potentially shame and guilt around anything that someone's doing around their choices. And so control and consequence oftentimes right elicits this feeling or this need for compliance because we're fearing the consequences of what will happen if we don't comply with the rules. And sometimes this can be used like I'll I'll um serve God so God will love me, right? Or I'll behave X so I won't go to hell. Um, this kind of language is very much based on a controlled view of God, like I have I have to do what God says or else.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Um, and and and right, that isn't the heart of of scripture, that isn't the the the um heart of the gospel message, and so oftentimes people are really scared in their spiritual formation experience because they're trying to do all the right things out of a fear-based mentality rather than a trust-based um mentality, a movement towards this like relational God that sees us and knows us and wants to be with us anyway, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

So no, that's good, Coralie. Was was just to clarify, was consequence the second C?

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Yeah, so control, consequence, compliance, and then she uses two others. She uses um codependency, which I could talk all day on. Um, where codependency is this idea of like I'm okay if you're okay. And so this is where a lot of that like checking behavior of others, like making sure that other people are doing what they're told so I can feel okay, um, and managing the distress my distress by managing other people, right? That's oftentimes where we see that codependency kind of kick in, or making sure that I'm doing what's right so that the people in ministry won't be mad at me, right? That kind of idea. I mean, I remember being a college student and serving at a church, and there was someone there that was very concerned with us being on time. And I was so scared about not showing up on time. And I was like, I I look back on that experience and feel for my younger self, it's like that was not the point. You know, it's like the the I the idea was make sure she's not mad at you versus, you know, hey, what you know, why are you late? Can we talk about it? Like what's going on, right? That kind of idea where we're we're really just focused on making sure that we're doing the right thing to maintain homeostasis, to maintain, right? This like everyone's okay. Um, and then the last one she mentions in the book is culture. And so it's this this idea of our culture really tends to perpetuate whatever these forms of um control and consequence are. And so noticing um abuse happens on whether it's a individual level and or a like a corporate level, but but we can get curious about like why is this keep happening? Like the culture is somehow insulating it, right? Um, and that often happens because of dismissing spiritual bypassing, denying of harm. Um, and so those are the those are the things that I'm looking for. Um and what I'm listening for in my client's story, uh, to be able to like that was wrong that they said that. And then they'll people will be like, really?

SPEAKER_03 18:34

And I'm like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah, just like naming, like that's control, like that's controlling. Um, and so sometimes I can shed light on, oh wow, I have had those experiences.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

And what do I do with those? How do I how do I reconcile now my maybe perception of God after being in these kind of contexts?

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah, yeah. Now, do all of those five have to be present? Is it like three out of five? Like, where would you say it's um, hey, this this is an actual problem? Like they may experience one of them and maybe they experience that repeatedly. So the control piece, like that's always been a thing, but maybe it doesn't have the other elements. Well, what does she say? Or is that are all of these five things present, essentially, is what I'm asking, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Yeah, I don't think I think she was just kind of like painting, I I can't remember directly quoting that chapter. Um, but I remember it just being like this.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

These are the the these are the characteristics.

Scripture Discernment And Spiritual Helplessness

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Yeah, key characteristics of of of where where it uh spiritual abuse is gonna be prime, right? Yeah, um like the context for those things. And there's also like a I can't remember who wrote it, but it's called like spiritual uh spiritual abuse syndrome, and it has a very similar list of kind of of topics where if we're kind of noticing these red flags of being, you know, rejected or brought into the group, um really like moral, moralistic kind of um messaging, things like that where um your your goodness and badness and your in and your out is really based on your behavior um rather than um this movement towards union with God, which is more of the spiritual right formation um invitation of come be with me, be like me, do like me, right? And reflective to the world around you. So um yeah, that those are I don't honestly, my personal opinion is if one of these things is happening, we have to start getting curious. Because just one alone is gonna it's gonna snowball, but also it it's it's gonna impact us. And I know for me, you know, um if I didn't have the people in the life my life that I had, going back to our definition of trauma, I don't think I would have responded the way I did in those moments, right? Where I was like, no, I don't agree with that, you know, because um I think at that point I had had enough belief in what I knew to be true and I had people behind me. But a lot of a lot of us, you know, and there's been times in my life where I've experienced this and I've stayed in situations and then been able to uh reconcile it later, but it's really hard when we feel alone in it and when you're going to a religious system to ask questions that sometimes that doesn't work well, you know, and then it can feel even more isolating and you're either you're you get you get rejected for leaving the community and then you get you know isolated within the community. And so it's just really it can be really, really difficult. Um once you start noticing these things, like what do I do now? What do I do next?

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Yeah. I and and I love your advice on that too. It uh it just it makes it easier to identify when you say, hey, if you see this, get curious about it, right? Just this this this curiosity, like, hmm, why is this happening? So it just puts you in a almost in a non defensive posture and just the idea of okay, I'm not gonna be on the lookout for it. But I'm going to be wondering about how this is actually why this is happening. And that makes you open to see maybe other patterns or to who it's happening, right? So it makes you, it just brings a different level of awareness, which which I'm always up for, right? Self-awareness and other awareness. So I think that's always good. Um, you know, Carly, it's it's probably very common for Christians who are experiencing this, they're in the church and they're seeing all these things happen. And to ask the question, why is this happening in the church? Is God allowing this to happen? Right? You know, God, why why am I going through this right now? Um, this is your church. This is your bride. And these things are happening. Why? So it can cause some level of confusion or some level of discomfort. Um, but yeah, I mean, what what do we say to that person who is wondering, you know, why is God allowing this to happen?

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah, I think it's a great question. And I I really I I wonder, and maybe I maybe I'll speak from my own experience. Um, it's it's really hard to ask that question because oftentimes it's a grief question is kind of how I phrase it. Um because that that right, just even listening to like the why is this happening? Like, yes, like I I still resonate with this, this shouldn't be this, right? This idea of it, it shouldn't be this way. Um and so this kind of links, and I'll I'll connect the dots, but it kind of links back to this image of God, right? Where when when when space is like the church that is supposed to be a refuge, a place where we can meet with God, um, safety, right? Communion, support, all these like beautiful things that the church was built to be. Um, and it gets so destroyed by human error and so destroyed by um our own blindness, right? To our to our ability to harm and be harmed. And so I think that there's a really um a really powerful space for questions of why, because I it it really leads us into this invitation of grief and what what many would call the dark night of the soul, with deconstruction as our maybe more popular term would be because it it's allowing us to go deeper into like the mystery and the complexity of our world, right? If it yes, it's true, and I totally want to like stand in solidarity with those that say the church should not be perpetuating abuse. Yes, it is. And I think God is so grieved by the way that we um we miss it, and I also believe that even in in perfect communities, um, healing can be had. I I like I'm member of a church, it's not perfect, but people um are willing to rupture repair and move towards each other, and I think it can be beautiful. It's messy, but it's beautiful. Um, and so when people ask why, my first instinct is to really validate that why. Like you, you know what, you got a point. Um and I I then get curious and ask the question of what their image of God is, right? Because we kind of tend to see this spectrum, and this is descriptive, not prescriptive at all by any means, for those of us that are listening that are experiencing this. But what I tend to kind of notice is that throughout our experience uh our adverse experiences um within religious context, we can kind of get an image of God that is either complicit to the suffering that we're experiencing in those spaces, like God is this is God's will, right? Which gets really messy, or it's like God doesn't care about me because he's letting it happen is oftentimes another one. Um, and so we have this kind of continuum of of where we're kind of placing God in light of our experiences. Um, and so one of the things that that I really look back to is is being able to notice and and and this is a process, right? It's not just like we come to this, but being able to kind of flush the that why question out and get a really good idea of where we started believing these messages about God's and right belief about abuse. And um one thing I think is so beautiful about the gospel narrative is that God stands in solidarity, and like if we think of Jesus as a trauma survivor in the sense of his crucifixion, right, um, it can really help help those that are struggling, those that have been victimized by religious faces to to reclaim like but Christ stands in solidarity with my suffering, and and that can be a new imagination for those that have experienced harm who are asking that question. But I I I want to be really mindful to say that that's a process, and so if we come into that, and I've come into that question, I've asked that question in my life, um, and I see it as kind of a process of like asking why, and then learning to like lean in on that question and how it can transform through that question. Like it's okay to wrestle with that question, and um, and God will meet you there and and reveal um something. And and oftentimes I think it gets hard because we ask that question, and sometimes we even ask it in a religious context, and then it's kind of dismissed or it's spiritually bypassed, we're just told to trust God, and then there's no space for any exploration. And so um I really encourage people to find spaces, and I'll talk about this a little bit later, but find spaces that can hold that and and let it let it uh let it air out because it's got something to say.

Asking Why God Allows Abuse

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Yeah, yeah. So there's almost this encouragement that you're giving both to um the person who's been hurt and also people around that person to, hey, provide some space where when people are going through this, that a question it's a question that's allowing for them to explore their faith deeper, right? And to see God maybe in a in a different light, where he's able to hold whatever struggle it is that they're experiencing in that time. I mean, we read in uh Hebrews, right, that where it says that you know we don't not have a high priest who's unable to sympathize with our weaknesses and understands those temptations. So he gets it. He understands why you're frustrated and why you're why you have questions. Bring them to him, you know. Um but yeah, also for those who are listening, if you have a friend who's carrying these types of questions, it can be easy also like why don't you get it? Or maybe you've gone through something yourself and you're already at the other end of it. You know, we can't rush this process. Any type of healing um always takes time and everyone's timelines are different. So just being that present um friend and um confidant during that time is is very helpful. Um, you mentioned that there's potential for experiencing a lot of shame in these types of uh situations. And even for that person who's asking that question, why did God allow this to happen? They may feel bad about asking that question, right? Like I should be trusting God, I should, you know, I should be seeing the good, whatever the case is. But can you speak a little bit to the shame that's potentially experienced by uh many of these um believers?

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Yeah, and shame is such a a challenging uh experience because it does, right? Shame is I am bad versus guilt is I did something bad. Um, and so it it really does corrode the sense of identity, of trust in in our like what we're feeling and thinking, right? In our worldview almost is kind of like that fragmentation idea. Um and so something that I attempt to encourage people to do, and this is again a process, but to to not rush the shame away, but to lean in and and to ask the question about where that belief came from, right? Because that is oftentimes like shame is oftentimes carrying lies. Um and those lies are oftentimes perpetuated in these in these faces where the truth gets distorted, and um I don't know where I heard it once, but someone said like shame like shame is the opposite of of of what God wants for us, and this idea of like when when I notice shame in my own story or in as we're tracking with clients, you know, to be able to just like name it as um a really tender space that needs support and um maybe even some some like new imagination is kind of a language that I use. Um but to be able to notice that shame is oftentimes an external message that has been internal internalized in our system. And so that can sometimes help people be curious about like what you know. I asked the question oftentimes like who told you, right? Kind of like the the Garden of Eden um examine where God moves towards them and says, like, who told you that? Um so that's sometimes a helpful place to start when it comes to shame um and the ways in which shame tries to, I would say, steal away our our belovedness as children of God.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

No, it's that's that's very true. And um, you know, when people are wrestling with those thoughts, uh at least from what from what I remember, it it does, and you kind of mentioned this earlier, it does feel very lonely because you think that you're the only one who's had those types of questions or those doubts. And we find that there's a lot of people who has have those thoughts and and doubts, but no one to share with, you know. So yeah, as you guys are listening, hopefully you're also receiving the other part of being able to be a witness to that struggle for other people. Because if you can create that type of culture with the people that you are surrounding yourself with, then that then can you know create a different culture for those to come after you, right? You, your children, your friends, everything else. So uh just something to be mindful of. Um, yeah. So so what does it look like then now to know all of this that we've been talking about and to start moving towards healing? Like what does the healing process look like for people? I know we talked about it's a different timeline, um, it takes time. Um we need to be there for people and just walk with them as they go through that. But what does the actual healing process look like? What should be changing in their mind, in their hearts, and their bodies even? What's changing?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah, so the the way I kind of categorize like where people could go with this is um through a a series of steps and and it's more of like a drama perspective on this, but in order for anything to heal, um and and I use that term loosely because I think sometimes people can say like, oh well, heal uh when I get here, I'll be healed. And I believe healing is more like constant healing, like that the idea of um like sozo in scripture where it's like kind of this like constant healing. Um, but the idea where we have to start, we have to start with safety. So I I hopefully this works. So it's steps like creating safety. And so that might look like that might look like stepping back from things. Um, that might look like not going to the places that are triggering us perpetually.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Um not going back to church.

Working With Shame And Grief

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Sure, for a time, yeah. For a time, what is that? What would it look like to just take a step back? You know, I think that can be a controversial statement that I just made. And so I want to um circle back to this idea of if someone was was in any other trauma, right? Um had any other traumatic experience, we would never encourage them to go back to the place of their trauma perpetually on a weekly basis, right? Yeah, yeah, just go back there. But but when it's a church, right, there tea there tends to be some pushback um to whether or not that is okay, right? And so the idea here is when trauma occurs, right, we have to create safety again. And that means it's not in a church building for right now, by all means. Um God is much bigger than a church building. And so, and again, this is my perspective. So I I speak for my own my own perspective here, but I wonder if we could have a lot more curiosity around what safety looked like and giving permission for the one that's listening to this, it's like, I'm just having a really hard time and I don't know what to do. What would it look like to create safety in your life for a time just to kind of like relax your body? Because our bodies might be really experiencing right some some psychological responses to to our adverse experiences. And then after safety is established, once we've maybe we find a therapist, maybe we create find a group that feels like safe enough. Um and and then in that can we start sharing our story, right? This is where being re-witnessed is where healing really takes place, right? Remember, we talk about trauma being the lack of an empathic witness, sharing our stories, and not just like a trauma narrative, that's not what I'm talking about, but just like sharing what's hard, what what we're feeling like in the present moment, and having people attuned and being able to witness empathically, listen, hold space for their questions, that kind of storytelling, it can really um I would say I'm I'm thinking of this image of just like like lighting us up again, like waking us up, right? Like coming alive again, like dry bones to like uh breath again, um, or seen by another person. And in addition to that storytelling part, I think there is this invitation of learning to find support to grieve our suffering, right? And that that all happens in that story process, reprocessing our experiences in the in the space of uh of another that can hold it with us, and then lastly, um just time to reconstruct and time and support to reconstruct a new imagination of God's heart. And so I love this idea of revisioning or um what a new right, our imagination is what is what is fragmented when we experience any sort of abuse, and so imagination is the first step in like what is there is a possibility. Is there a possibility that there is a God that loves you deeply, right? That moves towards you and grieves with you and stands in solidarity of your suffering um and wants to be with you, right? So like that that process is it will have a lot of outcomes, um, but I think the process itself is is to be open to whatever right shows up in that space. Um I don't know if that's a helpful way to look at it, but this process can really give people a starting place to say, like, I don't even know where to go with this, I don't have a place to talk about it. Um taking some some steps to create that safety for yourself is a really um really important.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Yeah, absolutely. And I like that you emphasize that too, this aspect of safety, because I think as Christians, at least growing up, one of the things that we forget, so we know we're spiritual beings, that's highly emphasized in the church. Um, we know we're cognitive beings, mental beings, right? We we have thoughts and so on. But I think though we often downplay the emotional part of our being and also the physical part. Maybe, you know, we forget that we also have these um uh experiences that are how our body feels when we are in these unsafe places, and that that's something to be curious about, right? Why am I feeling that way? And to your point, the idea of establishing safety, if it needs to be away from church for the time being, then that's what's necessary at the time, right? So you allow for yourself to get to this regulated place where you feel safe, and then that provides some level of confidence or trust to be able to move into these other spaces with the support system, right? Support system probably the I think one of the um primary factors in helping people cope with trauma, whether that be before, during, or after, as long as you find some social support along the way, that's super helpful. Um, so yeah, I I like what you mentioned there about the the safety piece. Now, all of this is leading to how Christians ultimately view God, right? Their God attachment now, what we're hoping to do is that they establish a securely attached attachment to God. And what does that look like, Carly? What can we tell people when we think about safety? What does it look like? What should their perspective um be about God and maybe even the how should they feel towards God, right? Um both of those are are elements of of God attachment there.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Yeah. Um, I I wonder for me, I think I think of it in the context of what does it feel like current, like I'll ask this prescriptively, I guess, or like for people to kind of check in. Like when we think about moving towards God, um, does God feel safe? And our when we we say what well, what does safe feel like? Right. That I think that's a that's a hard question to answer because everybody I think might experience it differently. But I what I'm not gonna probably feel is fear um and um shame or guilt, right? Uh these um our system, does it expand or does it contract, right? This idea of um anything that expands us, right, kind of opens us up to that that really great state of our window of tolerance, right? Where things feel okay, right? Our body will tell us if we feel unsafe. And so that looks different for every person. So I don't know if I could sp specifically speak to that, but I'm I'm wondering if it can be more of like what's not there is what kind of keys us in. And something that I want to mention that I'm thinking of as I'm saying this is that even good things can feel unsafe.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

And so that's a great point.

The Healing Path: Safety, Story, Support, Reconstruction

SPEAKER_01 41:21

What I mean by that is like, yeah, that a nervous system that has learned to constantly protect itself from traumatic experiences, whether that's in the context of a religious system or not, coming into a religious system after any sort of abuse of any kind is gonna be not gonna feel great. Um I like the that there's like this image of like three circles, and the out outer circle is like safety and the inner circle is not safe. And then the middle circle is this like safe enough box. And I think that's where I would encourage people to be curious about like where would we find ourselves presently in our attachment with God, um, noticing, right? Uh, I use the the four like aspects of secure attachment. Do I feel seen by God? Do I feel safe? Or do I feel like God's gonna punish me uh or hurt me or harm me? Um do I do I feel soothed by God? Right? Because those three are gonna be able to create that secure attachment. And what when when we're thinking through that or when we're experiencing that in maybe a therapeutic context, um we're we're gonna feel connection, right? We're gonna feel calm and um this ability to uh like be ourselves again. And so that is such a beautiful aspect of the work that I get to do is getting getting to experience that with others for them to regain that sense of I didn't feel safe before with God, and now I feel like I can invite him into this space and know that he loves me. And I'm like, yes, that's awesome. I'm so glad, you know. Yeah, um, that's beautiful work in my mind. So those are just a few thoughts that I have on it.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Yeah, yeah. No, that that's good. You know, um I learned a lot when I was doing my um my dissertation not too long ago. I was talking about Latina counselors, and I was curious about why there weren't that many Latino men in the counseling field or even that go that go to counseling. And as we're talking about this, I was hearing, and obviously using attachment language and the attachment concept for security, when we talk about does God feel safe? I think for men, I think that makes sense. Does he feel safe? And I use and I, you know, not to stereotype, but I think men experience and think about God differently. And actually they think more about God and don't allow for the feeling allowed to be part of this. So for those who are listening, I just to give you a different bridge to see whether or not you feel secure with. God. I think one of them is yeah, do I feel safe? Like when I'm talking about God, when I read God's word, does it feel safe? Do I feel like comforted by it? Do I feel like it, like he's an ally? I think that's another way to look at this aspect as well. Because men operate in brotherhood, in camaraderie. And I like this expression that someone says men work side by side, they do things together, then that brings a level of closeness.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

So that's why you hear a lot of men talk about um excuse me. They talk about um mission or doing something for for God. Like they have this kind of purpose mindset. And I think this aspect of security um allows them to just see it in from a different perspective. But ultimately, we do want to create some level of feeling and emotion towards God. It's not this dry relationship, it can be very vibrant and very um intimate in how you see God, especially and they understand this as well, in your moments of suffering. Um that's when you get into this reflective state and you're just wondering what's going on here. And when people are with you in your deepest, darkest moments, there's like this level of closeness, and you can experience that with God. So once you get to a point and you're able to experience God and see God in that, that's what that's that's what you want to experience, that safety and security of knowing that he's gonna be there no matter what happens in your life. Um, so I just wanted to also share that because I think when we when we use the safe and secure language, I think for some minutes a little bit difficult to connect with that. So just to give them a little bit of different language um to make those those connections. Yeah. Um, Carly, I have one more question here for you. Um what what gives you, I mean, we talked about obviously this difficult um topic within the church, um, especially for those who have experienced this um spiritual religious trauma. Um, but what gives you hope about the future of the church? I mean, the church has changed so much in 2,000 years. Definitely not the church that was after Jesus' death and resurrection. Um, but it's still alive and well. It's the bride of Christ. He will be back for us, and we're thankful for that, right? Um, but yeah, what what gives you hope about the future of the church and maybe even how it addresses um mental health issues or just this aspect of religious trauma?

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Yeah, I think about the church. I I think I I imagine the building, right? The institution, but I I want to hold a more expansive view of like the church being God's people, right? And in this idea, the hope I have is that um that God is such a faithful God, and that I think of Philippians 1, where he says, Um, you know, he who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it. And um I I may not always have a lot of trust in humans, um but I have a lot of trust in the spirit of God in us through us, and so I have seen that evident in my own life and I've seen that evident in others, and so that is something that gives me a lot of hope for the beauty of God's like presence in those in my even my faith community that are so humbly walking through like the complexities of our our culture right now and wanting to move towards um this witness-oriented approach of like we're curious, we want to hold space for you. Um, I just I'm really hopeful in that, and that like you're saying to your point of like mental health, that the church is really, at least my faith community and many, you know, that we're we're kind of referencing here, are really leaning into this idea of a holistic approach. And I think that gives me a lot of hope that we are not just thinking beings that are black and white and doing all the right things from a moralistic perspective, but that we're recognizing that the complexity of our bodies and our minds and our spirit um is what God is asking to love the Lord with Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And so um, those are the things that give me a lot of hope to see just like God's spirit at work in others. And I have a lot of trust in that.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

That's awesome. That's great. Um, I'm with you on that for sure. I do see a shift, and um I enjoy and that we get to be a part of that, you know, that we get to be the Lord's hand, the hands and feet of Jesus in meeting the needs, the needs of people through our work, uh, through ministry, whatever it is that we do. Um, you know, it's just it's a privilege to be able to be a part of that. And um, and we're doing that here. Carly, thank you so much for sharing your your wisdom and insights on this topic. I think uh everyone will be blessed by this topic. And yeah, I'm just thankful that you were willing to do this again.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Any final words?

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Um no, I think the only thing I would say is if this is resonating with anyone that's listening and you're needing a space to process spiritual concepts, um, you know, check the show notes out. Um, Eden Holistic Counseling Center is where I'm located, and I have a team of people that love this topic and are passionate about creating space. We're going to be doing some story groups this um spring and some spiritual formation groups. Um, for those that are coming out of maybe spiritual abuse and wanting to stay with their faith and get curious about it. Um, we'd love to walk with you in that.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Yes, absolutely. And yes, I will include that in the show notes so you can receive that there. I'll probably put some of this information up on um uh my Instagram page as well. So be on the lookout for that. And uh yeah, Carly, thank you again.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

All right, have a good one.