Safety First: Why Listening Builds Love w/ Maggie McCane

What if the secret to fewer fights isn’t better arguments, but better timing, safety, and words that actually fit what you feel? We sat down with licensed clinical social worker Maggie McCane to break down communication that heals—starting with self-awareness and moving all the way to how faith communities handle shame and support.

We begin with a simple shift that changes everything: regulate before you relate. If you’re hungry, flooded, or exhausted, ask for consent to talk later. From there, Maggie walks us through the feeling wheel to expand your vocabulary beyond mad-sad-bad and into language that creates connection—hurt, overlooked, embarrassed, overwhelmed. We model how to use I-statements without sounding scripted, and how to open hard topics by first asking, Is now a good time for a heavier conversation? Consent makes space for listening rather than defense.

We also look at patterns that wreck trust: stonewalling, sarcasm disguised as play, phones on the table, and scorekeeping that treats your partner like an opponent. Instead, we build safety with simple ground rules, micro-moments of repair, and a team-first mindset. Maggie shares why many men were taught to express only anger and how shutdowns or addictive escapes take root—and how small, daily awareness interrupts that cycle. Then we zoom out to faith: why Christians can love Jesus and go to therapy, how shame silences growth, and the quiet loneliness pastors face without confidential support.

By the end, you’ll have a toolkit you can use tonight: regulate first, ask for consent, speak in I-statements, and practice active listening with clarifying questions and paraphrase. No perfection required—just a plan and a little courage. If this helped, subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review with the one skill you’ll try this week. Your words can build a safer home. Let’s practice together.

Transcript

Welcome Back & Two-Part Series

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm so excited for you guys to be here today. As you guys know, I've been announcing the last couple of episodes that I have a lot of interviews coming up in the next couple of weeks. And one of them, I'm doing a two-part series today, and it's on communication, both in relationships and how that then transfers over to our relationship with God and how we communicate with Him as well. And to do this episode, I invited back Maggie McCain, who is a licensed clinical social worker, and she's been on the show before. And we had a great conversation last time. So it just made sense to do a couple of other episodes as well. So Maggie, welcome back.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Guest Intro: Maggie’s Practice And Focus

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Oh, you know, when you presented this topic, I was really excited about it because I mean we do this all the time, right? Whether it be in relationships, uh and even attachment styles plays a big role in how we communicate with each other. I don't want to say the wrong thing and so on. But then also as I started to think about it even more, yeah, I mean, even how we communicate with God, you know, how do we bring our petitions to him? How do we um how do we tell him our troubles and pray and so on? So this first um part that we're gonna do today is gonna be focused more so more so on the healthy communication within our relationships uh that are very important, right? That God gave us these relationships to interact with each other and learn how to communicate and so on. And then the second part, which we'll do right after, will be on how does this all apply to our relationship with God. So again, I'm really excited about this topic. And for those of you guys who are just tuning in, again, as always, remember to subscribe to the podcast, share the episode with a friend. Um, we had some really good feedback last time, so that's always good to hear as well. Um, but yeah, if this is your first time, or maybe you just started listening to the podcast, um, and if you haven't listened to the last episode that I did with Maggie, uh feel free to check that out. It's not too long ago, maybe about two months ago or so. Um, but for those of you guys who this is your first time meeting Maggie, I'll go ahead and give her the floor just to share a little bit about herself and what she does.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, thanks so much. Yeah, and I loved our last conversation talking about, you know, kind of redefining trauma and different ways to think about it. And so when we when you reached out and we were discussing what to talk about today, I loved that you were excited about communication because as a therapist, this is pivotal to all of our relationships, including, of course, our relationship with God, but even like godly relationships, even like you were saying, the relationships that God put in our lives intentionally, how do we steward those well? How do we help those flourish? So, yeah, I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm just really excited to talk about this. But yes, so I'm a clinical social worker, I'm a group practice owner here in Tucson, Arizona. So I have a couple associate therapists that I work with. Um, you know, we are a trauma, um, we call ourselves like a trauma boutique clinic because we really try to speak to the niche specifically of men in the in the field of mental health. Um, we're not anti-women and children. We do see women and children as well, but we really wanted to create a space where men specifically felt safe and comfortable coming and also receiving mental health care, getting their needs met. So we do tons of different interventions: EMDR, somatic work, grief work, um, help people with, you know, couples therapy. Um, we also do see teens, 14 plus. Uh, so just serving the Tucson community. And we also do telehealth work, um, so we can see anyone within the state of Arizona. Um, but then, you know, that's as far as we go. We're limited to the state of Arizona.

The Power Of Guided Journaling

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah, yeah. No, that's great. And, you know, before we started, um, Maggie was sharing a little bit about receiving some uh information from people outside of the state. And maybe there's a resource that you can share, Maggie. Uh, you talked a little bit about a journal. Can you uh share a little more about that?

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Yeah, absolutely. No, I was so excited after our first episode that I had a couple people reach out just saying they, you know, what we discussed really resonated with them and they wanted to get some support and could I work with them? But since our license is state specific, I can only work with those who are in the state of Arizona. So I did just want to bring up that I wrote a guided journal earlier this year because I just found myself repeating the same things to all of my clients. I really believe and the research will back the power of journaling. And so if you want to progress your healing, taking that time to intentionally sit down and check in with your thoughts is just so effective in your growth. But then a lot of my clients were saying, you know, I just stare at a blank page and I don't know what to write. So I created this journal with the prompts that I would normally use during a therapy session. So I really like to think of this workbook as like a therapy session without me, you know, one that you can kind of have for yourself in your own home. Um, so there's some guided prompts here. And then in the back, there's also my favorite resources that I recommend to the vast majority of my clients. So it's all packed in one place. Um, so it's called uh the therapeutic journey. And you can find it on Amazon and you know, maybe we can link it here. Um, so just an affordable way to continue your healing, whether you're in therapy or not.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

No, that's good. That's good. And it is so important, I think, to emphasize that that aspect or that element of journaling. Um, and I think a lot of people do once they start it and they develop the habit of it, they start seeing the fruits of it. So uh when you do try this, you know, you want to remain consistent. Uh, a lot of times when people come to counseling and they are given a tool or something to practice, they try it maybe once or twice and they're like, oh, it's not gonna work. But you really have to stay consistent with this to see the full effects of it. So, yeah, so it's a great resource. I will definitely add that to the link. And um and yeah, hopefully everyone will be blessed by it.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Yeah, thank you so much.

Setting The Stage: What Changes Communication

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah, absolutely. All right, Maggie. Well, let's get into our topic today. I know you're excited about it because this is what the work that you've been doing. You know, you work with working with couples, um, it seems to be one of interest to you. I actually I was thinking about this earlier. I got my undergrad in a communication studies degree, and I was reflecting, I'm like, man, there's so much to actually discuss about um communication and relationships. But uh yeah, it was just taking me back to my undergrad days. So we'll see how everything turns out today.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Yes, I'm sure we have so much to cover, so I'm excited, like the direction that we decide to take.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, let's go ahead and start here with the first question that we were thinking about because the audience that's tuning in right now, mostly Christian audience, maybe there's a couple of people who are listening and they just enjoy talking about mental health and enjoy seeing a Christian perspective or worldview. Um, so it just made me kind of think is I wonder if there's a difference between how we communicate as Christians with each other or in relationships and maybe those who are not. Um is it only dependent on maybe what they modeled was modeled for them in their homes? So just as a general overview, when we talk about communication, what do you see regarding this? Like how does it, is it different then uh for Christians and non-Christians, or what do you see?

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Yeah, you know, it's such a a broad way to think about this, right? Because even of course, within Christianity, like so many people are different, had different upbringings, have different hurts, um, have different even experiences with their faith and the way that they live that out. So I would say if we want to look at this like big picture scale, we probably majority of us communicate with the same themes and patterns, right? Because most of us do what we saw growing up and we kind of continue to implement what we have learned. So, you know, with that being said, if we have like a healthy Christian environment or like a pastor who speaks on healthy communication, then of course, like that could look very different. Or some of us have parents who just communicated really, really well. But I would say whether we're in the church or not, um, a lot of us have grown up with communication strategies that are not effective. Um, I think especially like our generation, we can speak to, like being feeling like, you know, children are to be seen and not heard, right? So from early ages, these messages, whether they were covert or overt, saying like, you're not really, you don't really have a place to talk, and we're not going to teach you how to talk skillfully and communicate. Um, so I think that's a barrier that we run up against is just the the cultures of our time and the way that, again, we were raised to communicate or not. You know, did we grow up in a home where there was a lot of yelling? Um, do we grow up in a home where we never saw our parents um have conflict? Maybe they did it behind closed doors. Um we can kind of talk about the pros and cons of that. But communication and difficulty in communication, you know, I don't really like the term like fighting, to be honest. It's just like working through a conflict. Do we do it in healthy ways or do we do it in unhealthy ways? And that's kind of the bigger difference maker. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. I uh so it sounds like whatever, no matter if we're Christian or non-Christian, what we grew up with kind of sets the tone for how we eventually communicate. And even within that, there's there's differences. You know, I was thinking about birth order, I was thinking about who gets more attention, different stages of life within the parents' lives, kind of that affects how communication starts to happen within the family as well. So, so what do you see? You mentioned that there's a couple of things that we do that are not healthy. Like, what are the most common unhealthy ways in which we communicate that you see?

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Okay, so yeah, I feel like a lot of the questions that you said, Sam, I'm like, I feel like I'm just gonna say the opposite, which I think is why we enjoy this dialogue so much.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

No worries.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Because I think a lot of what I see that's honestly the most unhealthy is when people aren't communicating. Again, I work with predominantly males. And oh gosh, this is so I get so passionate about this idea that a lot of young men grew up in homes where they were only really able to express feelings of anger. So the communicating feelings of sadness, embarrassment, disappointment that wasn't modeled to them, and they weren't even given the language to express those things. So now I'm seeing them in my office, you know, they're 30, 40, 50, 60 years old. They're probably in some kind of relationship, close friendships, marriage. They probably have kids, you know, a lot of them do. And they're like, how come I keep exploding? This is my communication style now with my wife and my kids when I'm frustrated. And it's simply because they were never given the tools to communicate effectively their other emotions. And so instead, they just don't communicate them at all. And they're the little volcanoes that eventually explode because they've kept so much in. I'm saying males, I see this with females too, but I honestly think this is one of the most disruptive communication tactics that we see and that people really want to get support for to learn how to feel safe with their emotions and then communicate them in a way that's going to be received in a safe way, right? So if you have someone who's never talked about feeling embarrassed and now they're trying to come to their wife, again, I'm generalizing, but and then their wife doesn't receive it well, and the wife says something like, No, you're wrong, dismissive, um, stonewalling, it causes her to shut down. Then we have this huge communication rift.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah, yeah. And I I know you when you're mentioning that there's that part where if they don't know how to communicate emotions, it's either bottled up and then they explode. Um, so do you see the other side of it too, where it's complete shutdown? Because I know in order to for men to avoid exploding, they rather just shut down. Oh, maybe they're asked to communicate, hey, share how you're feeling. But what they've seen consistently is that when they have shared, it hasn't been received well, kind of like what you were mentioning. So the more you press into that, it seems to lead to that explosive um response on their end. So it's like kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you speak up, you're gonna end up yelling. And if you don't, you kind of shut down. Is that kind of what you're referring to?

Naming Feelings: The Feeling Wheel

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Totally, totally. And you're absolutely right. Not everybody explodes. Sometimes the shutdown then takes the form of like a gaming addiction or a um, yeah. I see I see a lot of gaming addictions, gambling addictions, pornography addictions of like I have all this inside of me and I don't know what to do with it or how to communicate it. And so I'm just gonna throw myself into something else that's all-consuming so that I don't explode.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Sure. And what do you find that it is that they're trying to communicate? Like, what are they trying to say but can't?

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Mm-hmm. I think that a lot of us have these negative, you know, core beliefs or negative distortions that, you know, maybe at one point had some kind of validity but no longer do. Honestly, like the most common one comes down to not feeling good enough. So we're kind of speaking about men, we can kind of think about women too. But a lot of men just feel like, I don't feel like I'm a good enough husband, father. I don't feel like I'm making enough money. I'm a little bit dissatisfied with the way that my life turned out. How do you communicate that to your wife when you don't even know how to say those words?

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah, yeah, that's so true. Um, Maggie, I don't know if you've seen it. There was this um, I don't know if it was a meme, but it's kind of like just a picture of uh father's brain. And on one has like a comment and it says, I'm fine. And then on the other half of that same brain, it says tired, fatigued, not good enough, feeling left out, all these different things. And I think that's really that's really kind of the experience of what it's like for them. It's like you have to say that you're fine so that you're not asked to dig a little bit deeper. So I really appreciate the work that you're doing because I do see that. And you know, living in Arizona, I don't know if you see a lot of Latino men, but even more so amongst Latinos, there's there's also that um, you know, don't share how you're feeling, you know, and anger is kind of the only acceptable type of emotion that you can express, and so on. So I I do see it. I I I see that, and everything that you're saying makes perfect sense. So in communication in general, is the talking about things, is that the issue, or is it the how? Is is the how more important than what they're actually saying, or is the content damaging as well from what you're seeing?

Micro-Awareness And Triggers

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Yeah, I totally understand where you're going. It's like where do we even start, right? Yeah, um, because the system is potentially broken. Um, shameless plug with my uh guided journal again, but I just want to point out that the feeling wheel is something that I start with with a lot of my therapy sessions. Again, predominantly men, I'm happy to speak more specifically to women. But so I sent I show them this feeling wheel, which obviously you start in the middle where it has more general emotions that are easier to identify anger, happy, sad, things like that. And then it go branches out. As you branch out, it gets more specific with the feelings. And I will give this to a man, you know, who's struggling with these sorts of things that we're discussing, and just say, like, you know, tell me a time that you felt something other than anger, or tell me what other emotions stand out to you on this feeling wheel. And I've had men like start tearing up, being like, I can't say I've ever used some of these words. I can't say I've ever identified these feelings in myself before. I'm so used to feeling mad, sad, bad that like, yeah, there are times that I've been embarrassed and I've never even said that. I've never even like acknowledged that within myself. So providing that, like, you know, education is not the best word, but just even like the vocabulary for the emotions and then helping people identify it within themselves so that they can accurately communicate this to their loved ones so they can say things like, you know what, I'm actually feeling really hurt by what you said earlier.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Right?

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Like we can't communicate that until we know it for ourselves first.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yeah, yeah. And that's tough too, because I'm thinking about how for a big part of their lives they've just never known that or practiced that. So, I mean, how long does it typically take to get them to that point where they have language to communicate those emotions and thoughts?

Self-Regulation Before Conversation

SPEAKER_02 16:27

You know, I think like any new thing that we learn or try, it depends on how much effort and dedication they put into it. I have clients that will, you know, will have that sort of conversation. I'll send them home with this journal or even just the feeling wheel and just tell them, like, just check in with yourself regularly. And within a couple weeks, they start to pull these things out, right? Like we're we're smart people, you know, like we know what the emotions are. It's just a matter of checking in with yourself, again, journaling, right? Being like, how have I been feeling? Well, what did come up for me when I yelled at my wife? Or I, you know, a lot of men, even will be women too. I yelled at my child children and I felt horrible about it. That's not the type of parent I want to be. What came up for me that I resorted in anger? You know, I was honestly feeling really tired. Work has been so stressful. You know what? I forgot to eat that day. I was so busy and I was literally hungry. And I think that's why I lashed out. Those sorts of like micro moments of awareness make all the difference.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yeah. So when they're able to identify those things, they're able to kind of uh prepare themselves for hey, usually when I'm not eating, I don't have a good day. And if I see something, a mess at the house, I'm probably gonna get really upset. So I better eat something before I go home or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Totally, totally. Or like I come home, the house is a mess, I'm enraged, right? Like we have a huge emotional response. Okay, why am I enraged? The house is just a mess. It's not that serious. I think I'm starving. I think before I say a word, I'm gonna go eat dinner and then I'm gonna communicate and let people know, hey guys, how can we clean up before bedtime?

SPEAKER_00 18:01

So communication really then it seems to be more uh well, maybe not more, but there's a part of this where there's a level of awareness. Like in order for me to communicate well, I need to be aware of how I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, and physically how I'm feeling as well. Yep. That'd be fair.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Yes, I I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah, so um because this is something that comes up in so many relationships, what are some communication principles, I guess, that we can share with the audience that um they should try to practice, you know, that they should make it part of their daily practice. One of the things I would when I work with clients, I try to give them one, maybe two things at a time because we could say, hey, work on one, two, three, there's five things. And it's just overwhelming, right? So from a um communication perspective, what are like two, maybe three things that you emphasize that you're like, hey, if you're gonna communicate better, here's what you would need to do.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I do start with the self-awareness piece. So I'm glad that you highlighted that of like in order to communicate effectively, we need to know what's going on for us. And we need to be regulated, right? So if I come home from work and I notice um I'm just angry, you know, for whatever reason, let's just use this example. And then my husband wants to talk to me, I need to be able to say to him, hey, I'm not like emotionally available right now, right? Like I need to like eat dinner before I can engage in this conversation. So I think even that's like a level of you know important communication is being able to say, like, if you're not there, if you're not ready. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Yeah, yeah. So so how does the other person respond? So the the boyfriend, the girlfriend, the spouse, like how do they respond? Because this is new for them too, right? It's like they've never communicated this way with me. And now they're kind of setting up not boundaries, but they're telling me how they're feeling, and they expect me to kind of understand that. Like, how does the partner typically respond?

The Conversation Outside The Conversation

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Okay, I've like, I feel like you set me up perfectly for this one because that's another thing that I highlight so often with people is having the conversation outside the conversation. Okay, what I mean by this is you probably wouldn't want to start with what we just described of like the first time I've decided to change my behaviors, I'm gonna tell my partner, um, hey, I'm actually not emotionally available for this conversation. Can we have it later after dinner? They'd be like, what the heck? Like, I've never I don't even know what to say right now. Like, I might honestly get mad at you because I feel rejected. Like that might not go well. So the conversation outside the conversation is before that happens, you say, Hey, I've been learning a lot about communication and I kind of want to try things a little bit differently. So, is it okay if moving forward I let you know if I have the emotional capacity to have that conversation? So it's like right, it's like setting up how can we have more successful communication. We have to talk about our communication first. And this can be really hard for people because they're only used to having challenging conversations in the middle of the challenge. Right. And that's like the worst time to have a conversation. It's like we got to wait till the feelings are settled, we're feeling really good, we're feeling really regulated, and then say, Hey, when you come home and you just start talking immediately about your day, that can be like really overwhelming and triggering for me. Do you mind just like giving me a minute? Or I'm such a random example. Because if they come home and they start talking about their day and you're feeling overwhelmed and stressed, now is not the time to say, Hey, when you do this, it really annoys me. Like that's just not gonna go well.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 21:30

No, yeah, that's true. That's true. And you know, when when so having those conversations to kind of prepare the land for, hey, here's how I want the communication to look moving forward, are you okay with them now? That that takes from the other person too, though, to have a sense of self awareness and understanding and maybe um maybe sensitivity to it as well. Because with that, you know, how do you I guess how do they prepare that person other than having that conversation? Because when What if the other person's dysregulated and maybe they don't have uh the same communication style? Um or maybe they need to work also on you know stuff that's going on for them. How would you how would you address that? Because I feel like that's probably one of the things that comes up as well. Is that typically if you have someone who has bad communication, does the other person have good communication? They're frustrated because it's not good for both of them, or do both of them just not communicate well, or they're just both missing each other? What do you see most often?

Consent For Hard Topics

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Yeah, it totally could be a total variety. Is that you know, like with any sort of growth, right? One partner might be super into growing and the other one's not, or they might might both be like, Hey, I love that you're growing. Teach me, I want to come alongside you on this journey. Um, hey, that sounds like that's something for you, not really for me. So we can for sure see all different sides of when one partner wants to grow and change and the other partner isn't quite sure about it yet. And so that's why I think that these do these convers these conversations about anything that you want to change in your marriage, um, you know, difficult conversations about kids, about work, about any of those things really need to happen when both people are regulated and like you know your partner when they're feeling calm. You know, maybe that's when you two have date night and you have you're having like really good, you know, really good vibes, great conversation, relaxing environment. Hey, I've been wanting to bring something up to you and kind of see your thoughts on it. Maybe that for other couples, it's you know, when they're cuddling, watching TV at night, like you know that both parties are totally regulated and calm. That's when we want to bring up any sort of difficult conversation.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Yeah, no, that's a great point. And I hope everyone, so as you guys hear that the times to have those difficult conversations are when you both are in a good state, right? When you guys are both enjoying each other. And maybe the fear there, and I'm thinking about this from a communication perspective, maybe the fear there is because things are going well right now. I don't know if I want to bring this up, right? Do you see that? Like, yes, is this a difficult that I want to bring up right now? Like, everything's good.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Like, yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

How do you address that?

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Oh my gosh, such a good point, Sam. I'm so glad you mentioned that. That comes up all the time. Like, what if we're having a great date night? Why would I want to talk about something heavy?

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Yeah.

I-Statements And Vulnerability

SPEAKER_02 24:17

And so I think so, and this would be like my third kind of tool or um recommendation is um to identify the type of conversation that you want to have with your partner. So, hey, is it okay if I bring up um something that's been hard for me? The other partner has the choice to say, yeah, let's talk about it. Or they can say, like, ah, you know what? Like, we were kind of like really enjoying talking about whatever movies, TV, you know, something lighter. Um, can we talk about that later? Which again does take a level of like emotional awareness and communication from the other partner? But at least I think most of the time when you present it that way, you will get consent from your partner. And then they feel like they consented to this conversation. They're not like, oh, why are you ruining our good night? It's like, hey, can we have a clarifying conversation about something? Would you be okay with that right now?

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Kind of setting the stage for what you're hoping for.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. The thing that popped into my head as you were sharing that too is that even when having these conversations, when you are setting it up, there's the difference of using the I or you statements, right? As opposed to um, and you kind of mentioned that too. I'm feeling this way, or I would like to bring this up, as opposed to you made me feel this way, or you said this. Do you see a difference in that as well? Because one can seem the the latter can seem more accusatory. Uh, the first can be more of, hey, this is something that's just been bothering me.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Totally. Yeah. I mean, I statements, yeah, I think are such, you know, maybe talked about too much to the point where maybe people grow numb to it, but really it is such a powerful tool. And again, it takes that first step of self-awareness so that you can say, Hey, I have been feeling hurt, I've been feeling embarrassed, I've been feeling um neglected, you know, in our relationship. That's vulnerable, you know, that's gonna be a vulnerable thing. It is so much easier to say, you did this. That's not very vulnerable of us. But if we want to have, and again, we're talking about strong, healthy, lasting relationships, there's gonna be tough parts to it. And vulnerability is one of those tough parts to healthy relationships.

Building Safety And Relationship Rules

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that one of the ways or one of the things that we also talk about in communication is that there needs to be a level of safety. And I'm wondering if you if you can elaborate on that, is if people don't feel safe with each other, as much as one would want to share a concern or how to do things a little bit differently, if they don't feel safe, then it's most likely that they're not gonna share that new skill or that new tool that they're learning in communication with the with the other person. So, how do we create that safety, right? We often talked about, especially with trauma, like two nervous systems, they're gonna dysregulate each other if they're both anxious or if there's just a problem that they don't feel safe, right? So, how do you help people develop a sense of safety within that relationship?

SPEAKER_03 27:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Yeah, and my mind goes a million different ways, right? Because I think we all struggle with how to build emotional safety in different ways, right? Like this is just gonna look so different for each um each couple or each relationship. So I think a lot of the things that we've touched on can be applicable, right? Um, asking for permission before you start a challenging conversation. Hey, are you are you available if I talk about this? Or is it okay with you if we um if we talk about I don't know why, but intimacy keeps coming to mind. I think maybe just because a lot of us struggle to even bring up that conversation. And it is something that does need to be communicated about, and a lot of us don't. Um, so for whatever reason that's coming to mind of like, hey, is it okay if I talk about our intimacy? Can I, is it okay if I talk about um, so I think that creates safety, getting consent. I think also knowing that your partner isn't gonna judge you, right? That this is gonna be um a space where you're not gonna get like laughed at or like mocked or your feelings are gonna get minimized. Um, so I think that can come a lot of different ways. But something um that I think is an effective tool is having kind of your relationship ground rules. And again, this is gonna look different for every relationship, but I think that that's a conversation outside the conversation of being like, hey, it really doesn't work for me when you're sarcastic. Like that really actually hurts my feelings, or it really doesn't work with me, work for me how you tease me about this particular thing. Like that doesn't create feelings of like safety and closeness. Because again, like, and I see this all the time where relationships grow and change. And so I work with a lot of couples who were like, hey, I used to be okay with the teasing and like you kind of make fun of me. Yeah. And now we're post-kids. I look different, I feel different, I'm going through perimenopause. The teasing really doesn't work for me. And I've had a lot of women say, Oh, you know, like he says, Well, we've always done this. This is our thing. You know, I don't mean it, you know I love you, but it hurts. Yeah. And so those things are worth talking about and like respecting one another. Um, you know, men, like we all have our insecurities. And so you might keep telling, you know, your partner like you're lazy or you don't do enough, and you're joking, but it's like that cuts deep. That's like just a little bit too hurtful. Like, can we have a ground rule that like you don't use that word? Um, those are important conversations.

Same Team Mindset For Change

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah. Yeah. And what stops people from from having those conversations once safety has been established? So is there um another barrier that we're not that we haven't touched on yet that stops people from communicating? Um, I think one that came to mind as you were talking is that maybe something's been brought up multiple times and there's no change happening. So at some point, that person gets tired of sharing those things and they just don't share that anymore. So they might address some other things, they might say something over here. Um, but that specific topic is not addressed anymore. And yeah, so so how do you deal with that? Like I'm communicating with him or I'm communicating with her, and this hasn't changed. What do you say to that person?

SPEAKER_02 30:35

That's when I really bring a couple back to you two are on the same team, right? So if you were on a football team with another guy and he was continually saying, When you do that move, we drop the ball, would you keep doing that move? Or would you say, you're on my team, we're on the same team. I need to work with you and do what you've asked me to do. And I think sometimes, for whatever reason, especially if we're in relationships for an extended period of times, we kind of forget that and we think that each other's the enemy. And it's like, I want to win, I want to beat you, I want to be better than you, not consciously, but those are kind of our background thoughts. And so that reminder of like, if this was your teammate, you would make a big effort into helping support them and helping grow them and helping make them feel safe. Why are we not doing that for our partner?

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yeah, yeah, that's so good, Maggie, because I think um, you know, you were talking earlier about guys. I think guys understand this aspect of team sports, or or at least for me, I I see that I'm like, yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense. I if I see you as my teammate, we're working together towards a common goal and kind of like the common statement of you're not don't attack each other, attack the problem type of thing, right? And when you can get on the same page talking about the problem and how you want to solve that, you know, I guess that improves safety, it improves the communication and kind of continues uh both people on the same same goal. So I think that's really that's really good to to mention there. Um so are there are there other things that limit a person's ability to communicate effectively? Um is there trauma? Is there shame? Are there other things that we may have not touched on that can also affect how someone communicates?

Shame, Faith, And Therapy Stigma

SPEAKER_02 32:26

I'm glad you mentioned shame, actually, because I was thinking about that like in pre preparation for our conversation today, when we think about like the Christian culture specifically. Um, I think that sometimes there is a big barrier to people getting therapeutic help or support in the Christian world because of feelings of shame. And again, if especially if we're highlighting men, like we know that pastors don't always get like the therapy that they need and that they struggle mentally for that reason because they think like I should have the closest relationship with God. You know, again, like very general here, but I should be able to kind of pray my way through it or figure it out, or maybe I did do something that I feel so shameful about that I certainly couldn't go and talk about it. And I think that that is just a major barrier to freedom for people. Um, and being able to say it's okay to love Jesus and see a therapist. You know what I mean? It's okay to have that um trust in the system of confidentiality that comes with a therapist to bring things that you know we're struggling with or things that we've done that we feel shame about, and again, talk about them, right? Like bring them to light so that they don't live in darkness within us and experience that full freedom. So I think again, when it comes to like that communication piece, I think there's some things that we just don't talk about or we're afraid to talk about as all people, but specifically in the Christian world, because we just think that we're supposed to figure it out, whether it's through prayer, reading my Bible more, um, especially when I started and kind of started advertising myself more as a Christian who's also a therapist. People uh had a lot of questions about that, of like, oh, I didn't know that Christians went to therapy, sort of thing. Um, and I guess I didn't realize that kind of bias that does prohibit people from growth and learning and skill building.

Pastors’ Loneliness And Support

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Yeah, yeah, there's still there's still some residue of stigma attached to um going to a counselor. And I think the church has gotten better. And this is this is a little bit separate, but somewhat tied to what we're talking about here. Um, where the church has gotten better of talking about mental health issues, even opening the door a little bit for seeking out counseling services. Um but my my issue is more so with when they have turned the preaching into a uh mental health kind of talk as opposed to it being just addressing scripture or or expository preaching. But but again, that's kind of separate, but still I think the emphasis is on we're humans, we're fallen, and we need these things. And part of that is the relationship. So if they don't have relationship outside uh or yeah, in their circle, you know, going to a counselor can provide that that space of hey, I'm here for you, whatever you need, let's walk together as you're working through this. And I'm glad that you mentioned pastors because they are one of the loneliest um uh people that are involved in some in their jobs, that they feel that loneliness at a high degree. And um, it's really sad because you know, you want them to be effective in their ministries, but when they can't even go to anyone else for help, you know, they they're stuck and they kind of wrestle with that in internally and don't ever share those things. So I do have a big heart for for pastors who are in ministry.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Yeah, yes, I do too. I really do.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Well, Maggie, I know we're we're coming to the end here of our of our talk for communication. Is there something that uh that we missed or something that you're like, hey, you know what? I think it's important for us to touch on this this piece here.

Listening As A Core Skill

SPEAKER_02 36:12

I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so. I think you asked such great questions. Uh, one thing I was thinking while we were talking about a lot of like communication, how do we communicate effectively, things like that? I did also just want to bring up the importance of listening. And we kind of did talk about like someone on the other end, right? Um, but especially like when we are in what do I want to say, like more maybe not even necessarily long term, but like more intimate relationships. How often do we stop listening when the person's trying to communicate with us because that we have our thoughts of, I already know what you're gonna say, I need to prepare my argument in advance, um, you know, just whatever the case might be. And listening is just as important, if not more important, than the words we even say, right? Is like really seeking to understand the person in front of us and clarifying to ensure that we are understanding them so that the communication can be more effective overall.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah, yeah. Let's touch on that a little bit to see like what does listening actually look like? Because I think most people think it's well, I'm here, I'm paying attention, but listening also involves um some level of questioning, right? Like seeking clarity, you kind of mentioned, right? So if you're not fully understanding what the other person is saying, it's okay to ask, can you clarify or can you tell me a little bit more about that or provide an example? Um would that be part of this engagement of listening?

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Totally, totally. And so we even call that active listening, right? Like I'm not just sitting here like passively hearing the words that you're saying. I'm gonna take an active role in, like you said, clarifying, paraphrasing, asking questions, even asking the question of like, what do you need from me? Like you're communicating this. What do you need from me? Because people might say, I just needed you to listen. I literally just like you don't have to say anything. Or I really need encouragement in this. Like, are you able to like encourage me right now? Build me up. Can you um can you challenge me? Like, I'm kind of working through this. I really need your feedback right now. So, us as listeners, even clarifying, like, what do you need from me and how can I give that to you? And maybe it is just like sitting, nodding, making good eye contact, not being distracted on our phones. I'm like so over multitasking. I like don't believe in multitasking at all. Like, I you cannot be looking at your phone, scrolling, and providing the no, you just can't.

Active Listening Tactics That Work

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Yeah. Well, I mean, and it's also disrespectful, right? It's it's that thing that we've gone so used to seeing in culture that we think that it's okay. But yeah, I mean, we're we're not paying attention. There's this really good book I think you'll you'll you'll like. It's called The Invisible Gorilla. Oh, you it's it's really great. Um, talks about a lot of different studies that they do. And one of them is on attention, how we trick ourselves into thinking that we're paying attention while doing one, two, three things when we're actually not. And what it does is it further disconnects us from each other, right? Because we're putting more and more barriers between us and the other person. And um, and there's a lot of research too on even if you have your phone on the table, how that can be a distracting because the other person's aware that you have it on the table. So little things like that as we talk about communication. So listening, active, uh listening, uh, reflecting, um, paraphrasing you said, right? And um, so yeah, different ways in which you can show the other person that you are actually listening to what they're saying.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Absolutely. Well, and thinking about safety in the relationship too, like how vulnerable am I gonna be if you're looking at your phone, if you're not making eye contact, if I don't think that you're actually paying attention to me, that's gonna be like I'm not gonna tell you that I'm this or this.

Teaser: Applying This To Prayer

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Yeah. And those, and those usually end up with, well, you know, you're on your phone, so I guess uh it's not it's not that important anymore. No, no, no, tell me, tell me. You already broke the bridge already by doing that. I mean, you can repair it, but yeah, once, and again, if there's repetitive situations like that where you're distracted and not paying attention, then you're just gonna discourage the other person from wanting to share. And ultimately, both sides, you want to have an understanding of where you each are um coming from and what you're trying to say to each other. So good. That's good. I'm glad you touched on that because that's such an important part. Obviously, we've committed to teaching. Oh, I almost missed it there. No, it's good. Well, um, we are now gonna tie this into our relationship with God. So tune into the next episode and we'll see you there.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Thanks so much.