Prayer As Two-Way Communication with God w/ Maggie McCane

Prayer can sound like a constant stream of words, worries, and requests but what happens when we actually expect a relationship on the other end of the conversation? I sit down again with therapist Maggie McCane to connect everyday communication skills to something many of us forget to practice: communicating with God in a way that builds trust, closeness, and spiritual maturity.

We get practical about why listening is so hard. Most of us don’t hear an audible voice, so we look for God’s guidance through Scripture, a quiet stirring, wise community, and the slow work of discernment. We also talk about the “noise” that blocks connection: busyness, impatience, and the subtle confirmation bias that searches for the answer we already wanted. If you’ve ever wondered how to hear God’s voice, this conversation reframes the goal as creating space for a real response, not forcing instant certainty.

Then we go deeper into honesty, shame, and repair. Maggie breaks down guilt versus shame, why shame makes us withdraw even though God already knows, and how repentance involves both accountability and changed behavior. We connect these ideas to attachment and relationships: rebuilding trust often means choosing consistent actions even when feelings haven’t caught up yet. We also explore boundaries, including learning to receive “no” or “not yet,” and how suffering can become a catalyst for post-traumatic growth rather than isolation.

If this helped you think differently about prayer and connection with God, subscribe for more, share the episode with a friend who’s wrestling with faith and communication, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What part of communicating with God feels hardest for you right now?

Transcript

Welcome And Episode Focus

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back again to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. We are here talking again with Ms. Maggie McCain about communication styles and communication in general. Last time we spoke about communication and relationships and how that is experience and problem solving and communication patterns. Today we're gonna try to orient this conversation towards how we relate and connect with God and how we even communicate with God. And it's gonna be a great conversation. I'm looking forward to it. I never actually thought about this, Maggie. And I know it was when we were talking, whether it be last time or just in email, um how we don't really think about how we communicate with God. Like I talk about the relationship, how we experience God, feel God, think about God, but the communication piece intrigued me when we were talking about that. Yes. And um, so I think a good place to start is, you know, we've talked about communication, healthy communication with uh couples and friendships and so on. But yeah, when you think about communicating with God, like what comes to mind?

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah, I mean, I think what what started this conversation is like, okay, if we're thinking about and focusing our time and energy and learning on being better communicators and having healthier relationships, I mean, God, if we're a Christian, like God should be one of our primary relationships. And thus we have to think about our communication patterns in that relationship as well. So I think it's to your point, like it's interesting that that our relationship with God and our communication with God would be excluded from the conversation originally that we were having, because it is a primary relationship that we should be talking about and really working on, right? Like any good relationship, it takes time, effort, energy. Um, and so communication is just part of growing a healthier relationship.

God As A Primary Relationship

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And, you know, I keep on thinking about um maybe communication principles that you've used in your practice or that you've used to work with couples and see if there's any actual connection between those and how we communicate with God. Um, you know, one of the things that comes to mind is how in communication it's a it's a two-way street, right? It's not just one person talking, it's a communication uh that each person is sharing, right? Um, but can you share maybe a principle or two that can be so this is one of them, maybe, where communication is a two-way street.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Not only am I sharing with God what I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, what I'm experiencing, but the other side of that is also, okay, what is God saying to me as I'm sharing these things with him? Right. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

And like, are we giving God the time and space to answer? I think this is a an a topic that a lot of Christians really do struggle with. Is like we're very well versed and well practiced in going to God with our worries, our complaints, our asks, right? Like we can do that all day long of like please God or why God. But then do we stop and let him answer and like let him stir in our spirit or read the word and let words illuminate to us or verses illuminate to us and seek the answer. I think a lot of us struggle with this. And so I think it's a really important principle, again, in life, but in our relationship with God. And then the other principle that really comes to mind too is when we're thinking about communication in our relationships, it requires honesty. And how many of us hide things, or at least we think we're hiding things from God of like, I don't bring this up in my prayer time, I don't surrender this to God, I don't gnaw on this and work through this with the Lord, I just keep this to myself, that's not going to create a healthy relationship with God. And it's not gonna create a healthy relationship, you know, otherwise with our partner, with our friends, if we're continually not being honest and not being transparent.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a great point. And, you know, with that first part of the of this conversation, which is you said we do a good job of kind of bringing our worries and our concerns to God, what do you think is um limiting us or is a barrier to us listening from God? Like if we can apply that principle to our human, you know, relationships with each other, do you see similar patterns in how we relate to God? Like what makes it hard for us to hear from God?

Two-Way Prayer And Listening

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Do you think I think, you know, like as people, we're just not very good listeners. I think that is a skill that a lot of us really have to work hard on. And some people choose not to really work hard on it. I think about a lot of the relational work that I do, especially if we're in conflict or we're in distress, we are talking at someone. And when it is their turn to talk, are we really listening or are we coming up with what we want to say back, our rebuttal? Um, are we thinking about, yeah, just our response, or are we really focused on hearing them? That totally comes up in our in our real life. And so I think we're just not well practiced at good listening, active listening. And so I think that even with God, again, because most of us don't hear an audible voice, right? Most of us it'll be like a stirring in our spirit or words being illuminated to us, or um maybe even like visions or dreams. So, like, are we staying quiet? Are we doing the like speak, Lord, your servant is listening, and then going quiet? What's the Bible verse? I'm not the best at quoting these things, but God is a whisper, you know, He is not a thunderstorm. And so we really do need to stay still and seek Him. And I think we're just not very good at that.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah, yeah. Not good at also maybe clearing our heads from those worries, or maybe not getting the response that we want. And that creates some of that noise or that barrier in being able to hear from God. Like, no, I don't think you're saying that, right? Totally. Kind of like how we misinterpret each other, right? Like, well, you really meant this. No, no, I didn't mean that, I meant this, right? So there's this in uh in action uh conversation where we're trying to gain clarity, but with God, it's not like that. And and but when we are speaking to God about our problems, it seems to be one of the things, at least it seems to be that we're not hearing what we want to hear. So we're saying, Are you sure you mean that? And we're asking for more clarification. Um, but yeah, I mean, is that something that you're kind of referring to as in not being able to hear from God? Because I'm not hearing what I want to hear. And I think that you're wanting to say something else. And we're looking kind of for confirmation bias where we want God to sell. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure that's true. But I think, I mean, I don't know. What do you think, Sam? I also think like I know a lot of people in my life, not not necessarily clients, because I don't get into a whole lot of like prayer topics or like specifics there, but at least personally, that you know, people will petition God and kind of put put their prayers, put their requests out there, and then they go about their day. You know, like how much like time are we serious, like truly just spending in quiet, like spending in stillness, right? Like we're going back to like human practices in our culture today that are just difficult to just sit there and be still and not pick up our phone, not run on to the next thing, not answer the next email, but just gives God some time to respond.

Stillness And Hearing A Whisper

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Yeah, yeah. And and maybe that's the other part of it too, this idea of being still. Because in conversation, we could make that argument as well that we don't know how to be still or maybe be in the quiet or in that tension of waiting, right? We don't like to wait. And um, yeah, I feel like that that can be a potential um barrier as well, where I don't want to wait, I want an answer right away. And some of these things take time, most of them take time, right? And uh so I I do see that as a as another potential barrier. Um you mentioned honesty, and you said you know, it's not like we're hiding anything from God, but why do you think it's it's difficult for us to share those things that God already knows? You know, similar to relationships, my fear is if I share this, um, I'm gonna be pushed away. I'm gonna be unwanted, uh, I'm gonna be hurt. They're gonna hurt me now. Um Yeah, what why do you think it's hard for us as believers to share those dark things that God knows, um but we try to hide in a sense, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

I mean, the first thing that I think comes up a lot for people is just shame. You know, I think that shame is a really powerful emotion that again, like we know God knows like every corner of our heart, but when we say it out loud or when we, you know, bring it to God in prayer, it is like admitting, like, yes, I've done this thing, or yes, I've had these thoughts, or yes, I'm struggling in this way. And it's hard to admit to ourselves, let alone, you know, like our creator. And I again, like we see that in relationships so often where like someone is struggling with something, um, someone's made a huge mistake, and there's just too much shame to allow them to be honest and bring it to again, like their partner or their family member, whatever the case might be.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

And how do you guide that person to eventually share what they've been keeping a secret?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Yeah, I do a little bit of education honestly on the difference between shame and guilt. So guilt is I feel bad, I feel guilty because I did something wrong. Like I did something that I shouldn't have. Um shame is I am a bad person. I am wrong, right? So the difference of like the looking at the action versus the person. A mistake doesn't define a person. A mistake is just a mistake. And helping people separate those two, I think, is really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah. So when so when people make mistakes, at least from what you've seen in your experience, do you see that the hurt partner makes that their whole identity of the other person? Like, you know, yeah, you made this big mistake and it really hurt and you've messed up. I can't trust you anymore, type of thing. Um, so how do you help the other person start to work through those feelings as well? So they have been hurt, the person is acknowledging it. How do you help the other person kind of work through, hey, you know, there's forgiveness? Or yeah, I mean, just what does that process look like?

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Yeah, I think it's exactly moving to that is like acknowledging that it was a hurt and we're not trying to ignore it by any means or minimize it like it is what it is, and we need to validate that experience and that hurt. But what good is it to continue to hold on to it? Like, how is that benefiting the relationship? Um, I think a lot of people, this whole like forgive and forget thing was a mantra for a really long time. And I think that that has kept people from forgiving because they're like, I don't think this person deserves for me to forget. And I think that there is like this new education or like this new wave of acceptance that like I can forgive you and I don't have to forget, right? I can forgive you and maintain boundaries in my life. Um, and I think that's a really important difference.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about how those same behaviors or the way in which you communicate kind of relates to our relationship with God. And you know, I guess one of the key distinctions that we can make, uh, which is more obvious than than not, is that God is not like us, that he doesn't push us away when we're trying to communicate something. In fact, he welcomes it. I was just reading uh Genesis 3, right? The whole Garden of Eden thing, when they um eat of the fruit, they hide. God comes, walks into the garden, says, Where are you? Right, he he's seeking them out and he knows what happened. But he's asking, it's like this bid for connection, right? It's like, where are you, right? Well, what's going on? And um, and eventually they do share, but we find something that we see obviously also in communication or in relationships is the the passing off of responsibility. You know, well, it wasn't me, it was the wife he gave me. No, it wasn't me, it was the serpent, and so on. So even that element of taking responsibility seems to fall into place in communication patterns as well.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

If you don't take responsibility for what you did, then are you really are you truly repentant about what happened?

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah. Um, and uh well, and can you truly repent? I would even add, like, are you able to truly repent if you're not taking full accountability for your actions?

Honesty With God And Shame

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Right, right. And then what does that look like? Who determines what that accountability looks like, right? Because the healing for the offended party, um, they might say, Well, I need this. Is it that person who determines what the healing process can look like? Or do you work with the couple together to create those goals? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah, I think that's a that's a good question. I mean, it it makes me think of, again, like so many parallels that I feel like I didn't even realize until we're talking about it. But like taking accountability and forgiveness, like it requires a lot of repentance, right? Like repentance is asking for forgiveness from God, but then turning away from the sin. Like we can't, we can't be repenting if we're asking for forgiveness, but then continuing to engage in the same behavior, right? That's not repenting. And so it's the same thing in a relationship or you know, what any kind of relationship. It requir the taking the accountability and then saying, and these are the changes that I'm gonna make, these are the steps that I'm gonna do that will be different so that I don't continue to make this mistake.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yes. And and um those mistakes, yeah, to your point, we do bring those things up to God and we do share those things openly with God, and He does forgive us. And um I often I often try to think about prayer, right? When we use prayer, it it seems one-sided. You know, you've talked about kind of remaining, um, having this ability to remain silent and slowly hearing for the Lord. And I think sometimes, and I don't know what what your thoughts on this are, but it takes time to tune in to how God is speaking to us. Usually when we when we do something, an offense against God, we want to pull away, right? I think that's kind of one of the ways in which Satan tries to lure lure us away. It's like God doesn't want anything to do with you right now, right? This also happens in relationships. They don't want anything to do with you, just stay away, don't talk to them. You got to go take your stuff before you even try to reconcile, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

And um, and in our relationship with God, it's kind of the same thing where it's like if I don't correct this, then I can't, I don't have the privilege to be to even get close to God. So I need to keep my distance and that then breeds more shame and more shame and more distance and more distance. Um so I think one of the communication, I guess, principles that can come up is and I think this happens in in couples too, is always keep talking. Right. There's this idea of continue to seek ways to talk. Now, I don't know if that's uh gonna be helpful in um person-to-person relationships, like whether it be romantic relationship or friendships, but in our relationship with God, I wonder if that's one of the antidotes to that distance or to that shame is that we seek God's behaviors to pursue and to connect with us and for us is to kind of retreat. So the antidote to that is seek God, He's seeking you out. He says, Seek me and you will find me. Right. And um so I think that's one of those ways of communicating with God is continue to seek him out. And the way that you do that is through prayer, even though you don't feel close, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

And I can imagine couples when they're going through their process of restoration, uh is that they don't feel close to them because they're still in those early stages of trying to rebuild that bridge. Right. Totally, right? Yeah, is there anything that you see there along the the rebuilding of trust in a sense of when one person hurts another, they don't feel close to them even though they're doing the thing, right? They're they're doing the work, but they still don't feel close to the other person. What's missing?

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Mm-hmm.

Guilt Versus Shame And Forgiveness

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Well, I mean, I think what what how I advise clients in that situation, because first of all, sometimes when there is like the offense or the breakage in a relationship, they'll be like, well, they need to start, right? Like they need to start whatever greeting me more affectionately. They need to start initiating intimacy. And it's like taking that accountability of like, we do need to start the behaviors of the type of relationship we want to have, right? So if you want more intimacy, even if you feel like it's your partner's responsibility at this point in the relationship, like you just have to take responsibility for it and like start creating that relationship you desire. Um and so I think that that that is a really important piece because we can't always trust our feelings. And I think that's honestly like a monumental principle in work that I do with a person, is that just like we can't trust every thought that we think, we can't trust every feeling that we have. We can, again, acknowledge it and validate it, but it might not be true. Like sometimes our feelings do misguide us. So we might feel I don't have a lot of love for my spouse, or I don't have a lot of love for this relationship. But if you want it, you can still act in a way without the feeling. You don't have this is not a prerequisite to feel it.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Yeah. No, I love that. That's that's actually a really great point because I think in modern culture, I think the feelings are often overemphasized and the maybe commitment or the you know working through things is not emphasized as much. And I don't know if you've seen that in your practice, but it's almost like personal happiness is above everything else. And if that was the case in our relationship with the Lord, then gosh, I can't even imagine how many times that I would, you know, leave the Lord or or want to be away from him if my personal happiness was the apex of my life fulfillment, you know. Um totally, yeah, I can't even imagine that. Um, you'll appreciate this. One famous author, um, I I used to read a lot of his books, his name is Dr. Larry Crab. He said that he was uh counseling a man who came into his office and uh he was a Christian man and he was going through a really hard time and he's like, you know, I've been feeling really sad and I don't know, I just I don't know what to do, but I want to feel excited, I want to feel happy, I want to feel uh I want to feel good. Okay. And he's like, okay. Um so what have you done so far? He's like, Oh not nothing, you know. I d I just know that that's how I want to feel. He's like, okay. And uh let me give you a couple of tips here. And Dr. Crab goes, uh, I want you to buy a cruise ticket. I want you to get a seven-day table, we make it a seven-day cruise. And when you go on that cruise, just party all night long, drink all that you want, meet as many women as you want, and then um come back and you'll be you'll be happy. And the client looks at him, he's like, wait a minute. Aren't you aren't you a Christian counselor? He's like, Yeah. And he says, Well, what kind of advice is this? I don't want this doesn't sound like Christian advice. And uh Dr. Rao goes, uh well, you said you wanted to be happy. And you know, happiness is temporary, so you'll feel happy, but if you want the joy of the Lord, that's gonna require for you to go through this process of suffering so you can know what joy looks like at the end of it. And I was like, Man, that is so that it's so true, right? It's this idea of we can't experience joy unless we know what the pain of going through that process looks like. And I think in our relationship with the Lord, sometimes we can get frustrated when we're going through things and we're blaming the Lord and Lord, why did you allow this to happen? That's a big question, right? Why, why this? Why me? Um, and then realizing that part of that journey is to draw closer to the Lord. And maybe similar to relationships, having those hard conversations is part of intimacy and closeness, right? And correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like maybe a lot of couples don't want to have those tough conversations, which robs them of the intimacy that they can potentially experience. Am I right with that?

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Totally. Absolutely. No, I think you're spot on there. The other thing I was thinking too, when you were talking about like learning the ways that the Lord communicates with you, we're talking about communication styles, right? Like, which is really important because the Lord does speak to all of us differently based on our unique giftings and the way He's created us. And I think that that is such an overlooked point in relationships as well, is that your partner or the person in front of you communicates differently than you do. Like they are not the same as you. And I feel like I hear you hear this so often, right? When a couple will be like, well, I would never do that. I would never react that way. And it's like, yeah, but that doesn't mean your partner doesn't and might mean something different through their actions. And so really learning how to understand, again, partner relationship, though that those close to you, understand their communication styles. Because just because you would or wouldn't do something, they're a different person and they communicate differently. So really seeing it from their perspective, trying to really understand and learn the way that they do things, just like our relationship with the Lord, will create more fruit, you know. More fruitful relationships for a person.

Repentance Accountability And Rebuilding Trust

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah. Yeah. And and you know, kind of going back to maybe our original point that, you know, communication is about trying to understand where the other person is coming from. And it's asking questions, it's digging deeper, really trying to get into the their the way that they think about things and feel about things. And um, I've seen this a lot, Maggie, where um where Christians expect to know God without actually trying to know God, which means whether it be um going to church, whether it be reading their Bibles, whether it be praying, being around Christian community, other believers who you know who are can encourage them in their walk, they don't do those things. And not to be performative, this is this is just the requirement of getting to know someone, is that we are intentional about seeking him out through his word. So I don't know what the Lord thinks about something if I'm not reading his word. Lord, what do you think about this? Um, how do you feel about this? How can you guide me in this? And it's asking those questions, but also going to his word. And we just I think sometimes Christians just pray and just expect for something to just fall on their lap, yeah. Or which is usually some form of confirmation bias, um, where they're looking for a specific answer, and if it aligns with what they want, they say, Oh, this is this must be from the Lord. Yeah, sometimes that can take people down a wrong path. And I've seen that in in relationships where again, if happiness is the is the primary concern, then they're gonna do what makes them happy. And the argument is, well, God wants me to be happy, you know. Um, and uh yeah, me and and I don't know if you've seen the other podcast I've done with my friend Tim. It's called Psych and Theo. But I haven't. Yeah, we we had a we had a uh episode where we did, does God want me to be happy?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Right?

SPEAKER_00 23:52

And it was that whole idea of, you know, like anything, yeah, I want the person that I love to be happy, but I know that if I make that the goal, the times that they're not happy, what does that mean about the relationship? You know, and it's it's really about um who is sticking through the difficult times with you where that bond is is forged stronger and it's it's it's strengthened, right? Um, so yeah, I really think we miss a lot by not communicating these fears or things that we have going on in our lives with each other and and and with the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and what you just said, I mean, that makes me think of boundaries, right? Like if we are over so concerned with happiness and making the our relationship per the person we're in relationship with happy, we are gonna do a lot of stuff that we probably shouldn't do, right? Because happiness isn't uh ultimately the the goal of every moment of life. So, how much are we gonna overextend ourselves and do and um yeah, just kind of push our boundaries? And we know that the Lord is a Lord of boundaries. We know the Lord is a Lord of, you know, no or not yet. Um so yeah, that that totally stood out to me. And that's that's an interesting point.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Yeah, yeah. So if they can't hear a no or not yet, if everything's a yes, then it might just be them yes and themselves, you know, saying yes to themselves and and not hearing or being aware of those, not listening clearly or or enough. Um now, just to be clear for those who are listening, we're not saying that um that you're not listening from the Lord if you've been getting yeses, right? What we're saying is be open to the no's and the not yets, because that's often a big part of this this boundaries. Like boundaries are intended to protect us, they're intended to keep us in relationship. Like there's boundaries that are set in marriage, they're set in friendships to protect that relationship. And similarly in our relationship with God, we can very very easily get caught up in all the busyness of life and forget about God in the process and say, Well, I'm too busy, I can't do that because you know I have my family, I have my kids, I have all these things. And again, very easy to not put boundaries around our relationship with God, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

And um, yeah, so so that that that really did uh send out to me as well. Um, Maggie, are there are there some some principles that you also encourage just in relationships in general? So we talked about a couple of them. It's a two-way street. We talked about being honest, right, and sharing everything. Um and vulnerability is maybe another one as well. Um are there some other things that are coming up for you as you think about communication patterns or principles?

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Yeah, I think we also talked about listening, how that's a really important one.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

I think the use of I statements, right? Like I think we mentioned that a little bit in the last podcast, but it's so important to not be, you know, telling someone else how they feel or like what their intentions were, but sticking with, like, you know, again, being authentic, being honest with, and sometimes that's hard, right? Because we have to actually share how we felt. I felt hurt when you did that. I feel embarrassed when you do that. Um, sometimes it's just easier to be like, you're crazy when you do that, and you know, put it off on others. So again, taking accountability, taking ownership for our feelings and making sure we're communicating those.

Feelings Commitment And The Happiness Trap

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Yeah. And how do you get that for both people in that relationship to use the I statements? I feel like that's it's it's a hard thing to do, obviously, for for for people. Um, I'm remembering this show where have you seen it where there's this therapist and she's like working, she's doing a couples counseling session. Okay, and um she starts asking the husband something about the wife, and he says, Well, I did this, and you know, I did apologize about that, and she just starts laying it on him. And the therapist stops her and says, 'Hey, why are you just attacking him right now? What's going on here?' And she's like, 'Well, he's he's just he doesn't really mean that, and this and speaking to your point, like she was putting um words in his mouth and saying, Yeah, no, he doesn't really mean that, and this and that.' So she was just trying to get to the to the core root of it. But um, but yeah, I feel like often the the these misunderstandings they stem from somewhere, they stem from previous experiences with that person that make them believe those things about them.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Um, and I think for us as Christians, there may be experiences that you've had in church or with other Christians that maybe shape your view of God and shape how you relate to God. For example, well, Sam, if I pray, um, God's not gonna answer my prayer. Oh, okay. Well, what's the what's the evidence for that? And say, well, you know, I I pray that he would heal my daughter, I pray that he would heal my marriage, and that didn't happen. So God doesn't really answer our prayers. Right. So that communication pattern or practice, to them it's not gonna make a lot of sense, but it doesn't make sense because they didn't get the uh result or the yeah, the result that they wanted. And I think that can also be a barrier to to communicating with God too, when we don't get what we wanted in a sense.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, when prayers go unanswered, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

And um so there's so much to say even about that, how we how we um talk to God about the things that we need and how we talk to God about the things that we want as well. Um and yeah, I guess I guess if we could shift the conversation just a little bit, it would be what's the biggest thing that you've learned about how God communicates with us as his children? You know, um, Maggie, I don't think I've asked you. Do you have do you have kids?

SPEAKER_02 29:48

I don't have children, no.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Okay, I was gonna ask, so even well, even with your parents, right? How do your parents communicate with you in a way that's made you feel loved and cared for? Because if we think about communication pattern, communicating with God, I mean he's our father, right? Father to daughter, father to son. So he communicates to us as a father would. Um yeah, so what are some things that you've seen in your maybe your own relationship with your parents or in other people's relationships, healthy communication patterns between parents with their children?

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Yeah, I think probably like most people, it's easier to think of the unhealthy. And I I, you know, thank God, have like very healthy parents who are still married, and you know, there's lots of very good things, but my mind immediately will go to, yeah, but they didn't do this, or this wasn't, you know, as so I and I just wanted to say that out loud to like normalize for people because um, you know, I think that as parents, like people do the very best that they can with the information that they have, and that doesn't mean they're not gonna make mistakes and that we're gonna grow up and wish things were a little bit different. Um, sometimes I work with parents and are like, I don't want to mess up my kid, and they they get really anxious about it, actually, like really stressed and overwhelmed. And I just encourage them, like, you can only do the very best that you can do, and mistakes are inevitable, and children are going to, you know, develop just the way that they're supposed to and can learn, look back and learn, right? How many of us do things differently now because we learned from the mistakes of those before us. So I think even that, like, God can redeem, of course. I think something that my parents did really well, um, you know, and even thinking about attachment is like where my mind goes as we start thinking about like patterns of behavior, is that, you know, again, like, thank God my dad worked full time and my mom was able to stay home with us. So I feel like we were able to have like a very strong primary attachment caregiver throughout my entire life. Like I remember even being in middle school, in high school, if I called my mom in the middle of the day to ask her a question or to ask her to drop off my lunch or something like that, like she was available and able to do that. So I think throughout my life, I did learn again that secure attachment lens of you know, the world is safe, I'm important, um, really kind of healthy behavior, healthy mindsets and behavior patterns like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Yeah. So, like no matter what I'm going through, I know my mom's gonna be able to, I can call my mom, she'll be there.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

That which is really beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Yeah, it does establish a sense of security. Like I can go to my mom, go whenever something happens. And that's really where we start to see, I guess, our communication patterns, not just with other people, but with God, is that when this stress happens, who do you turn to during that time? And um, yeah, I I mean, I went through something a couple of years ago, and you start to realize that you do have people around you that care about you, that love you, but they can't be with you all of the time.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Right.

Learning God Through Word And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 32:45

So it sometimes it felt lonely, and then other times though it was just like, well, they can't be here, but God's here. So let me pray to God and just see kind of what happens. So through that difficulty, it really started to strengthen my relationship with God because it made me realize that He was there, He was listening, totally even though at that moment maybe it was just like a calm silence of just a presence where it felt comforting to a sense of that presence there during during difficult times. And I think uh speaking of communication, that uh sometimes a communication is that it is either a calm presence or even just the silence of there's nothing really to say here. It's just I want to hear you out type of thing. Yeah, and um it did feel like that, and I'm not used to or was or wasn't used to sharing what I was feeling, um, maybe what I was saying, but not really the feeling parts.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

And um it's hard to share feelings when people don't know how to respond to them, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

So if I were to share that I'm sad and someone's like, You're sad about that, it's like, oh I'm not gonna share that anymore. Totally the security that I felt in just sharing with God about what I was experiencing and what I was thinking, it really provided uh yeah, again, a sort of a source of comfort. So the more experiences you have of these difficult moments that push you towards God, you really wanna dig into that, right? And so there's prayer and it's reading God's word, and then community, how much community speaks to you as well. But I love what you shared there, Maggie, about your about your mom and how she's uh how she was present and available to you guys when when you needed her. Um I in some ways, and you can correct me if I'm wrong with this, in some ways I feel like um grown-ups who had good parents, sometimes they feel guilty or bad when they're interacting with someone who didn't have that. Because it's like, well, you know, I had good parents, and if I share with you about how good my parents were with me, I feel like I'm not paying attention to your experience, or I don't really understand what you're going through because I didn't have bad parents. Is that is that a feeling for for you, maybe when you've experienced with clients, or am I reading too much into that?

SPEAKER_02 35:12

I I can totally track that and I definitely see how that can be really valid for a lot of people. Um I think that I've just honestly done a lot of my own personal work and I I can just like very much like separate the fact that like I can't take on your burdens for like myself personally. You know what I mean? Like they're just too separate, right? And of course, in a client session, like I don't share about my parents and I would never bring that up. Um but yeah, I I can hold, I can hold both, you know, both can be true that like your suffering is very valid, and the fact that I had healthy parents is separate from that. So I don't hold guilt. I know I like I said, I can totally track how people will um or could. It's the same thing with survivor's guilt, right? Like I can totally understand how that exists for people. But again, it probably is like my faith in the Lord of like I just trust what he's doing and like he created my life on purpose for a purpose. And like, so I just have to cling to that.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, gosh, I really again, this is just gonna get me thinking a lot about just how I communicate with God in general. But um I'm tying it just to all of these moments, and there seems to always be like this this type of suffering or low moment that really re-emphasized or reinforced my my trust and faith in God. And just for those who are out there who are maybe having a hard time in their relationship, it could be communication, it could be intimacy, it could be frustrations, finances, whatever the case is. It almost seems as though that difficulty can be seen as an opportunity to communicate more and maybe even grow in the relationship. Um I don't know if it would be fair or maybe right to say that you need suffering to be closer, but it seems pretty common that suffering, you know, um seems to sharpen or enhance the relationship in a way.

Parents Attachment And Feeling Safe

SPEAKER_02 37:20

I mean, that makes me think of post-traumatic growth, right? It's like we are all going to suffer. Suffering is inevitable, none of us are going to escape that. So what do we do with it? Like, do we just decide it's gonna make our life worse and continue to go downhill? Or do we view it as like that form of acceptance, right? Moving into acceptance to say, this happened, what can I learn from it? How can I grow from it? How can I do better in the world because of my suffering? That's post-traumatic growth. And that does help a lot of people work through horrible things that they've been through.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

And if they're if they're being supportive of each other in that process, that provides growth for both people.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Yeah, it could. I was thinking of it as an individual, but yeah, I could see that. You know, if like a family, you know, had a tragic loss or something like that. I mean, we know that the statistics are that that often will break up a relationship when, you know, a couple, let's say, has experienced a loss together. But again, if if we could, if the couple is able to say, how can we together grow from this, do something with this, right? That's why a lot of people, you know, start foundations or something like that in honor of um deceased folks or losses that have occurred, because we need to do something with that. And um, if we are, you know, blessing others, making the world a better place, um, that helps us heal, that helps us really move through trauma.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's very true. I guess I was thinking about how um if when there is a a trauma or something that happens within the family or within the marriage, if you see one that grows and the other one doesn't, or do you usually see both people growing because of that tribulation or or struggle?

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Yeah. I don't know what I see more of. That's not kind of hard. I would really have to think about that, actually. Um, I mean, of course, like I think objectively we can say that if one person is growing and moving in one direction and the other person is not, like that is, you know, where we see um breakages in relationships. Um, of course, like anything could be healed if both people want it to, but sometimes people do determine we just need to kind of go different directions or we want new things after um a big life circumstance. Um, and sometimes that's not always bad. You know, sometimes it is um okay to say, again, thinking about like friendships, even like sometimes friendships go through hard times. It's okay afterwards to say, like, hey, we're gonna probably go our separate ways from this. We want different things. Um, I don't think that's always a negative thing, but that would be hard for a relationship to maintain if we have different goals.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've seen definitely a lot of different friendships and relationships where, yeah, sometimes the goals you're just taking you in different directions, and that's just part of part of the reality. Um, yeah. So I guess to kind of wrap wrap up our conversation here with um communication, is I guess the takeaway is to always be communicating with God, to be patient in the waiting and listening for his voice, continue seeking community, Christian community. So you can hear maybe different people have you know, this is a big part, I think that was part of just anyone's growth is when you hear other people who have gone through similar experiences or who've gone through their own difficulties, like we we were able to learn from from their what they share. So seeking out Christian community is super helpful as well, and then just always remaining in the word and praying. Um, all of those are key practical ways of just communicating with God. And again, those same principles we can then take over into our relationships where, yeah, see community, um, seek the encouragement of other, you know, couples and believers to to encourage you in your walk and your relationship. Um and uh yeah, just always staying connected in in a sense.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Absolutely.

unknown 41:14

Yeah.

Suffering Post-Traumatic Growth And Faith

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Yeah. If I could just say one more thing, Sam, because when you were talking about um, you know, you, I don't know if it was when you were growing up or later in life, but maybe feeling like, okay, who do I talk to? What do I do? Um, and being able to turn to God and strengthening your relationship with Him through a difficult season, it really made me think of, again, like thinking of attachment styles, your specialty and expertise. But, you know, if we have just for simplicity's sake, secure and insecure attachment styles, it it's kind of hard. You know, I don't know if you found this, but it is hard for people to heal attachment wounds, just because they typically do start when they're so young. And I really feel like you, when you were saying this, it I feel like the people who have the most success in healing an attachment wound and developing secure attachment are the ones who have um a spiritual faith. And whether they, you know, call that like God in Christianity, or I have clients that just, you know, call it like divine spirit or, you know, something else. But like I can think of one client particularly who suffers quite a quite a great deal because of his very insecure attachment because of early childhood trauma. And really the one thing that we're able to hold on to is like his belief in something bigger and a higher power and being able to speak to this higher power when he does feel totally alone and when he is like, I don't know how to reach out to friends, I don't know how to maintain a healthy relationship. At least I have my higher power that is always with me and never leaves me. And I can share my burdens with my higher power and I can, you know, wait and hear for my higher power's response and guidance. Um, and I that's I mean, that's like I don't know if I honestly ever like really connected that until you were saying that of like how healing our relationship with God can be, even when it comes to this, you know, attachment and our insecure attachment.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Yeah, no, that's a great point. I mean, that's very evident in the research that uh people who have any type of religious attachment or religious figure in their mind is that can be it's a coping skill. It's a way to cope with the difficulties of life, something outside of themselves that gives them the strength. You know, we have uh the blessing as Christians to know Jesus and to walk with him and to see him model throughout scripture. And um, so that's a huge blessing for us. And but yeah, I mean, people who have some form of faith or some form of connection to uh religion, there's there's principles within certain religions that for them they find helpful. And when there is no one around, this seems to be that faith in religion for a lot of people is one of the grounding um uh beliefs or coping skills that they have.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Totally.

Repair After Rupture And Closing

SPEAKER_00 43:55

But yeah, I mean, the ideal is always that you have a good support system that you have. uh faith and that you are well connected with your with your family as well and um yeah and the more the more ruptures that we experience in relationships what you always want to see is the repair piece which is does this person still want to connect with me right so that connection is sought out by reaching out and it can be physical touch it can be communicating because of our topic today is just does the person still want to talk to me you know everyone goes through the silent treatment piece but if you can limit that I think there's um there was some new research that said if people can talk about their problem within 20 minutes after the uh after it was uh uh presented so if we had an argument within 20 minutes can they can they come back after they've calmed down come back and try to resolve it then like it shows higher success rates uh of future problem solving as well. Oh wow yeah now there's there's other research that says well you need to cool down kind of like the don't go to sleep um don't go to bed angry thing right yeah um there was someone who they did a uh research where um it was actually better for people to go to sleep angry because their nervous system slowly starts to regulate they fall asleep they wake up and you want to talk about it first thing in the morning so it's a little bit mixed but in general the idea is that that there is repair that there is communication after the ruptures so good yeah for sure look at how many of these like common mantras we're debunking right now Sam I feel like that should be like a takeaway for the listeners if you have a common mantra that like you've always said maybe challenge it because it might not be true. Exactly exactly no this is great this is great. I love how this conversation came up Maggie um I love that it was a topic that we're covering and uh yeah I'm looking forward to releasing these episodes again if you're listening to this one the one prior to this one was on healthy communication within relationships and this topic was more about how does all this um relate to our relationship with God and how we understand each other and so on. So yeah um guys thank you for tuning in Maggie thank you for coming on the show again I really appreciate your insights and just being able to just converse have a you know today was really a good conversation just about the things that we're learning communication relationships and so on and how that relates to to God.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

So thank you again Maggie yes of course I hope it blesses a lot of people I it definitely blessed me Sam thank you thank you Maggie I'm sure it will I'm sure it will all right guys well I'll see you next time take care