Counterfeit Christianity: You Cannot Follow A Jesus You Negotiate With w/ Ryan Shieh

Everyone seems to have an opinion about Jesus right now, but the hard question is the one most of us avoid: are we following the real Jesus or a version we’ve edited to fit our preferences? Sam sits down with Ryan Shieh, author of Counterfeit Christianity and a teacher of evangelism at Liberty University’s School of Divinity, to unpack how cultural Christianity creates people who recognize God but resist surrender.

Ryan shares his own story of growing up around church, mistaking “not doing the big sins” for discipleship, and eventually realizing that head knowledge without changed desires can’t hold up. From there we dig into the Western performance mindset that says you behave to belong, and why the gospel flips it: you belong by grace through faith, then your identity in Christ reshapes your life. We talk about the authority problem behind selective obedience, the danger of “fence riding,” and why “a Jesus you negotiate with is not a Jesus you surrender to.”

We also go deeper into the tension many people feel between the fear of God and the love of God. Ryan explains fear as reverence and awe, not hiding from a punisher, and why God’s justice and God’s love must coexist. Along the way we hit practical discipleship themes like holiness, repentance, gratitude, and the subtle apathy that grows when the gospel becomes familiar. Ryan closes with Jesus’ Matthew 13 picture of wheat and tares, a warning that convincing counterfeits can still lead to spiritual death.

If you’ve ever wondered whether your faith is more culture than Christ, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review to help more people find the show.

Ryan's New Book: Counterfeit Christianity 

Transcript

Welcome And Why This Topic Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm excited that you're here, and as you've seen in the last couple of episodes, I've had a number of guests come on the show who have been able to talk about different elements of Christianity, of our faith. And today I get to interview Mr. Ryan Chi. She said right, Chi? Yeah. Alright. I think I got it right. So Ryan uh has just released his new book called Counterfeit Christianity. And this is an important topic because, as you guys know on this uh podcast, we talk about things that can draw us closer to Christ. And I think when it comes to this topic of what does Christianity look like today, I mean, it just has changed so much. So we're gonna talk about that today, um, talk about what it is, and maybe even uh discuss some possible solutions or steps for us to take as we move forward. But uh, Ryan, thanks again for coming on the show, man. I'm excited to have you.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Thanks for having me, Sam. It's an honor.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

So your book just got released, what, a week or two ago?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Yep, I think two weeks ago today, actually.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yeah, yeah. So that's exciting, man. Is this your first book? Second book?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Second book. Second book. Technically, it'd be number four. I wrote two in high school, but um, the funny, the going joke is like those are two that I hope somehow find their way off of Amazon at some point. Uh-huh. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

So uh I like to say two. Okay, that's awesome, man. And um, yeah, so we're gonna

Ryan’s Story From Religion To Surrender

SPEAKER_00 1:36

talk about this topic and right now, just kind of give you the floor, introduce yourself, and give some background information to the audience. And um, yeah, just your interest in as to why you wrote this book.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Yeah, so um currently um live in Lynchburg, Virginia. I work at uh Liberty University School of Divinity, um, and so get to help out and teach some evangelism classes here on campus. I also get to host their podcast called The Refining Flame. Uh, we'll travel and speak a couple of times a quarter, uh, and then obviously have written this book, man. But I'll tell you what, it was not that way all the time. I I don't know where uh God met me, and I'm not sure how I got to where I am today. Um, it's funny, a couple weeks ago, someone was asking me, like, how did you ever think you'd end up here five years ago? And the obvious answer is absolutely not. Like, there's no way I could have made this up five years ago. Um, and so I was born and raised in Washington, DC, um, grew up in a Christian household, played baseball growing up. Baseball is what actually brought me to Liberty University. Uh, did my undergrad there and then finishing my master's there the spring. But, you know, I always equated uh believing in a God and not partying and not drinking and not having sex before you're married. Like that's what makes me a Christian. So as long as I stay out of trouble and as long as I just don't do some of the crazy, heinous sins that some of my other friends are doing, like I'm a Christian. Um, and so I grew up under this idea that, you know, acknowledging there's a God is what makes you surrendered. It's not that you believe in to where your life is changed, it's more so like, yeah, there's some big guy up there, there's a guy named Jesus. Um, and so that has no implications to how I live my life. Got here to Liberty and um I had all this head knowledge, thought I knew what to do, but then I was thrown into the deep end with guys who were not following Jesus and very quickly understood that my desires had not changed up to that point. Like if you put me in a situation to do something or to do something with someone else, or you know, to experience or to indulge, I mean, the answer was going to be yes, because I had not learned and taught myself um, you know, to deny my flesh, to give myself to Jesus and to really walk by the spirit. That was complete foreign language to me. And so I got here to Liberty and lived as if I was the big man on campus, reckless life of sin for a long time. Um, and I remember thinking to myself, like, man, who you say you are, like who people think you are, is nowhere close to who you actually are. Like your reputation is something, but your character is the complete opposite. Like, little do they know. Um, and so did this for a long time. And I remember after a while, I was sitting in my room one night and I'm thinking, like, I wonder what I'm gonna do with my life. You know, where am I gonna go? What job am I gonna have? You know, and and I remember thinking, like, I have this radical idea, I'll just ask God. Like, maybe God will tell me. And I remember praying, I'm like, God, what do you want me to do? And where do you want me to go? And it felt like I was talking to a brick wall, Sam, because I I heard nothing in response. And after a while of doing this, eventually I came to this conclusion. I felt like God was saying to me, Why in the world should I tell you? Like, why should I care? Up to this point, you have completely put aside everything that I've told you to do and you've you've treated it like it's nothing. And so, why would I reveal to you my hidden will when you haven't even listened to my revealed will? And so that there, man, that hit me right between the nose. And I really had to ask myself, like, okay, if Jesus really died on the cross, really rose from the dead, and really is coming back again, then that requires all of me. You know, I love the quote from C.S. Lewis. He says, Jesus is either a lunatic, he's crazy, he's either a liar, he's not telling the truth, or he's Lord. And that last one, man, if we don't get that right, everything is off the table. Because look, everyone loves Jesus in today's society. I mean, yeah, I'm so grateful for the timing of this book release because it we're growing into a place where everyone would acknowledge there's someone named Jesus, and people are getting more spiritual, but they're not following Jesus. Yeah, we're having more spiritual religion, less Jesus followers. And it's because we want to do what we want to do, and ultimately we find it hard to find surrender when it really matters.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, yeah. No, that's that's great, man. And do you think that a lot of people are in that same position? Like, you know, those of us who grew up in the church, I grew up in the church as well, and it's very easy to fall into a line of thinking of because I'm going to church, because I'm obeying, I'm not doing the big sins, I'm good. But do you think that that's kind of the culture, whether it be here or just in the United States in general, where because we have this association or connection to God or church that we think we're good.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

For sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a Western idea of Christianity that um equates doing to belonging. And so as long as you perform or do

Western Christianity And The Doing Trap

SPEAKER_01 6:05

or achieve or pursue, that means you can be in. And so, like, you know, we think the world's standards is like, blessed are the powerful, right? The strong, the accomplished, like the ones who look the best and the ones who can perform the strongest. And like Jesus flips it on its head, man. And he's like, No, you have to be poor in spirit to receive my kingdom, right? He says, by grace, you've been faith. You know, it's not a gift of it's a gift of God, not by your own works. It has nothing to do with you. And like that challenges our inner pride because ultimately we have to understand that we can't do it. Everything in the world says that you can, and if you want to make it, you have to push pursue what you want and build your life and put the resume out and beat the beat the competition. And Jesus is like, look, if you lose your life, that's how you find it. And so, absolutely, man. Western Christianity is all about doing. Um, and ultimately, like the gospel is because you belong first, then you behave, right? It's not you behave to belong, it's because you're in the family, act like you're in your family. I say this all the time: your identity precedes your activity, and so it's not that what you do makes who you are, it's like you are in Christ, right? Holy set apart, blameless, chosen, and so act like it. And so we got to get that down for sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Yeah, yeah. You know, there was this uh quote that I heard a long time ago. I'm sure you've heard it, where it said, um, the world has become so churchy and the church has become so worldly that it's hard to tell the difference between the two, right? And I think that's what came to mind when I saw your the title of your book, Cultural Christianity or Counterfeit Christianity, I'm sorry. And I started to think about the mind, that's so true. Like the the world or the church has tried to appease the world in some way and form or present this Jesus that people can mold into who they want him to be, right? And um, yeah, whether it be in sports, whether it be in Hollywood, wherever it is, everyone's thinking God and everyone's thinking Jesus. But I think that's where the rub is, right? There, who are they actually thinking? And that comes up to our question. Like, so who does the world think Jesus is, right? Yeah, what's their perception of Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Yeah, and I mean the the crazy part about that question is like all the answers are going to be different, which is the problem.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

That's that's a good point, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Um, and so here's what I would

The Negotiated Jesus And Fence Riding

SPEAKER_01 8:18

say, man. Everyone loves Jesus until you define who he is. And so if you throw out the name Jesus, like Savior, I'm going to heaven, he has good plans for my life. Everyone would sign up for that. Yeah, but then when it gets to the fine print of deny yourself, take up your cross, follow me, forsake all, and give all to me, then everyone's like, absolutely not. Right? It's an authority problem. Most of what we do and most of what we don't do is not so much an obedience problem, it's an authority problem. We don't like people telling us what to do, right? And so we have this self-centered view of reality where you know we're we're the big man on campus, we're the boss, we're the CEO. And so if we don't agree or we don't prefer what he's given us, we're not gonna do it. And ultimately, Sam, this is what I'd say, man. A Jesus you negotiate with is not a Jesus you surrender to. Okay. And I'll say that again. A Jesus you negotiate with is not a Jesus you surrender to. You cannot be surrendered 82.4% of the time. It's either all or nothing, man. You know, like Jesus lays it out very clearly in the scripture. He's like, you're either for me, you're against me. It's binary, and we don't like that. We like to have options, right? Right. But Jesus is like, look, man, if you have to give me all of you, because if you don't, you're gonna have divided allegiance and it'll destroy your life. Like the world and the church require complete allegiance. Both of them do. And what a lot of us do, and you mentioned earlier, is we do this thing called fence riding, you know, where we sit on the fence for so long, we're trying to get the best of both worlds, and ultimately, man, you sit there for so long that your legs get numb and then you don't even see how far you've drifted. Like you get so used to the currents of the world and your comfortability and and what you want, and then ultimately you miss out on both because you can't enjoy both, right? You got to pick one. And so I think the reason why that's happened is because we have taken so many different angles of who the world says Jesus is, and we don't we don't trust the Bible. And so this is what we do. Instead of looking at the Bible and saying, okay, this is who Jesus is, we take Instagram, TikTok, a little bit of Mormonism, a little bit of Hinduism, and let's just like combine it together. That's the Jesus that I want. And ultimately, that's not Jesus, you're worshiping yourself. Yeah, okay. You ain't worshiping God, you've created a God of what you want, which is ultimately worshiping yourself. And so for sure, we have to get away from that. And ultimately, like I said earlier, you have to submit and surrender your life, man. You're not the one in control here, you're not the main character. And if you don't understand that, it's gonna be really hard for you to do that.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, no, absolutely, man. And you know, as you're sharing that, um, just so the audience understands, we're talking to Christians or people who proclaim to be Christian. How would you approach this for people who are non-believers? Obviously, we're gonna present the real Jesus, but because they haven't known him yet, are you talking in your book? Are you talking to both? Are you talking to Christians or

Who Is The Book For

SPEAKER_00 11:02

people who say that they're Christian? How do you um delineate that?

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Yeah, that's a great question. The book is designed for people who say, I follow Jesus. Like, if you if you were to sign up for the camp of like, okay, I'm identifying with the creator of the universe, this book is for you. And and it will challenge you of like, okay, what are some areas that I am lukewarm in? Like, what are some parts that I'm not fully surrendered? If you're not a Christian and you're reading the book, um you're gonna be presented with this, with this dichotomy of how there's a cost to following Jesus, right? I think the church has not done a great job, honestly, at presenting this Jesus, you know, offer where it's like, hey, as long as you believe and as long as you show up to church and you read your Bible plan, do whatever you want Monday through Saturday. But like as long as you do this, you're in. And like I would say very lightly, man, like that's not that's not what following Jesus is, right? Like if he has only your Sunday, if he has 10% of your life, you're probably not following him very well, you know. And um, I would say this, man. I think the greatest thing keeping people from following Jesus faithfully is thinking that you are. Like you think you're following Jesus because of your preferences and your wants, but ultimately, man, you've only fooled yourself. And ultimately, like, dude, I'm telling you, the the enemy's winning there for sure. Yeah, like he's duped us, man. He's like, look, you can do what you want as long as you identify and claim, then you'll get in someday. And I'm just gonna tell you what Jesus said in Matthew 7. Many will come in my name and say, Lord, Lord, we cast out demons, we did miracles, we healed, prophesied. He says, I never knew you, man. I never knew you. And that look, it's not meant to fear you, it's not meant to scare you, it's meant to sober you. Like, what do I believe and why do I believe in?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Yeah, you're right. I I can't help but think that somewhere along the way, um this actual Christian faith where we put Jesus first, somewhere along the way got distorted. And I'm curious to hear from you like who distorted this view of Jesus? Was it the church, the modern church that's tried to appease the masses?

How Culture Distorts Discipleship

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Was it just people not reading scripture anymore? Well, you know, what's what's the problem? Like, what's led to this to where we are today regarding Christian faith?

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, another great question. I think everything you just said is spot on. I think it's a mixture of all those things. Um, obviously, we've gotten further and further away from Bible reading. Um, the world we live in has gotten more selfish, unfortunately. Um, there's a a stat and a report done a couple years ago. Is it was tagging the four most important things that people want in their life. And the four things that it came up with were power, attraction, comfort, and play. Like those are the four things that people value. And so power is like you want to be the boss and CEO, you want things to go your way. Uh, you want control ultimately. God doesn't control the outcomes, you control the outcomes. You think you're strong enough to change the outcome. Attraction, we live for the approval of man. Uh, I've heard it say that if you live for their approval, you'll die by their criticism, right? Not gonna work. Um, comfort, we don't want any responsibility. We want to do whatever we want to do when we want to do it and indulge and partake as much as we can. And then this last word, man, I love it. It's play. And if you look at uh the story of Exodus 32, if you remember, you know, Moses goes up to the mountain and he gets the commandments and he comes back down and all of a sudden they're worshiping this golden calf.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

And if you look at verse six, it says the people rose up to eat, drink, and play. And that word for play in Hebrew, it's sahak, and it basically means to like mock and to scorn and laugh at. And so these people, while they think they were like doing things for Yahweh, in air quotes, if you're listening, like they were actually mocking him with their lives. And so this mimics the words of Jesus, where he's like, Yeah, they say they they're from me and they're they honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, man. Like they can say something and do something, but they're living a totally different life. And so ultimately, I think we've gotten more selfish over time. Uh, we've lost our fear of God. Uh, I love the story from John Bavere. He tells a story of how he went to visit this old pastor in prison who had fallen out of the ministry. And this is a guy who like faithfully served for decades. And he's like, What happened to you? You know, how did you get to this place where you were leading people, people are getting saved? I mean, your ministry is thriving. Like, how did you get here? Like, how did you fall out of love with Jesus? And I'll never forget what he said. He said, Uh, I didn't lose my love for Jesus, I lost my fear of God. It's a fear problem where it's not like you're scared and you hide in the basement, but it's like you understand there's more to this life than just you, man. Right? Like, if you don't have this perspective that you're not the creator, you're not the main character, you're gonna do whatever you want whenever you want to. You know, and I love the words of David and Saulmate. What is man that you are mindful of him? Who am I? You know, who am I? What is my family that you've brought me this far? Like there's a sense of humility that actually propels you to a life of surrender.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah, yeah. And right, you know, as as you were sharing that, immediately I'm thinking about the cultural Christian who says, fear, right? This idea of fear God, like that's been a word uh or a phrase that's been used often in Christian or non-Christian circles where fear God, it's this idea that, you know, God is gonna, God is a punisher. And because God is a punisher, you know, I don't want to relate with that type of God, you know. Or people who claim to be Christian, they'll say, Um, you know what? I I don't want to focus on that part of God. I want to focus on the love part of God, that God loves us, that he cares for us, and help us understand that because they're both true, but I think what I've seen most often in Christian circles is that we highlight or emphasize just the parts that we like. And I guess maybe going back to your point about um we're shaping Jesus

Fear Of God And Love Together

SPEAKER_00 16:38

into who we want him to be, not who he says he is. But we see both parts. Can you um explain the balance of those two things? Like, how does fear of God connect it to like the love of God? How do they complement each other?

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Yeah, for sure, man. We definitely pick and choose which parts of Jesus we want to follow. And I would say, like, in the love and injustice conversation, like they actually they they they have to coexist. You can't have one without the other, you know? And so, like, if God, you know, was not just, he would not be loving. Like, if he did not bring justice to those who who have been wronged or like punish those who have wronged others, like everyone would agree that that would be a right standard of justice, and no one would complain about that, you know. But then it comes to the things that you don't like, or when you get in trouble and you don't want to pay the consequences, then everyone throws a fit. It's like, man, you're you this is what you've signed up for, you know. But here's what I would say, and this is what changed my perspective on it, honestly, is if you look at all the world religions, their deity, like their God, who they view to be is the all-supreme source of power, it's not so much of the Christian faith where it's God with us. Every other deity is God out there, like he's just watching, he's the police in the sky. You got to get it together, meet the bar, set the standard. And if you're not good enough, man, good luck. It's a long way down. You know, that's what the world religions are saying. Christianity is the only faith where yes, God is completely in control, Lord of hosts, he has authority over everything, but he's also Emmanuel, God with us. Like, not only is he a sovereign judge and authoritative power, he is a loving father, man. Like, praise God for that. You know, yes, he has power, yes, he rules the entirety universe, but he's so loving enough that he would do anything to just have you. And so if if you try to you can pick and choose all you want and get mad at it, but like the reality is he's a father who disciplines those whom he loves, like any good father will. And so if you look at it like that, it might help.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, and and to to clarify also, fear God, we're referring to kind of a respect for God's authority and who he is in our lives. Going back, uh you said um uh uh what's the word Lord, that people have a hard time with Lord, and Lord is not it's it's this position of I owe you everything as your servant, as your son, daughter. Um, would that be an accurate representation of that? Of who is Lord in our lives?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

For sure. I think the word reverence could apply. Um, I think, I mean, if you want to get nitty-gritty, I think it's it's really a fear of being away from him. And so the reality is is like, I don't think we understand who's on our side, you know. Like if you actually understood like who's fighting for you and with you, like a fear of God is like, dude, I don't want anything to do with him on the other side of that fight. Like you're I want him on my team, you know what I mean? And so, yeah, I think that that is what drives you to this place of surrender. Um, and ultimately you have to recognize that the the fear is not so much like you're afraid and you're scared, but it's like I have you and I don't want to lose you. And you can't, like the eternal security is like Christ Jesus is who bought your eternity, man. And so it's like, praise God.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yeah, yeah. No, right uh regarding kind of maybe some of the points that you

Holiness Repentance And Real Change

SPEAKER_00 19:52

make in in your book, what what's one one of or two main points that you try to drive across uh with your book? Like obviously there was a reason you wrote it, you were thinking about it, you evaluated your own life. There's so many points where you could have drawn from, but yeah, what what's are some two driving points that you um want for people to kind of take away from that?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah. Good question. Um first thing I would say is our our world today and the church today has completely checked off the holiness box. And so, like being set apart and sanctified is like that does not happen anymore. And so we exist in a world where you can follow Jesus and still indulge willfully in the things that he died for, like the things he got nailed to the cross for. The world says you can do all those things still with no problems, and so um what we talk about in the book is like devotion looks like legalism to the person who sees obedience as optional. And so when you want to devote something where you give it your life, like everyone would say, Oh, you're doing too much, man. It's not that serious. Like, why are you being so so strong? And it's like if you say that, it's because you don't value holiness, like you don't see a need to be holy for he is holy, right? And to be a new creation set apart for good things that he's prepared in advance for you since the foundation of the world. Like, if you don't believe that, you're gonna be checked out. And so I think we have to get back to that place of you know, yes, you're saved by grace through faith, but then the point of that grace is that grace actually empowers you to die, right? The call of Jesus is come and die. He's not making you better, he's making you new. And so you're not a good person becoming better, you're a dead person becoming alive. Like there's something new that has to happen to where like your resurrected self can only come when the old self passes away, right? And so holiness is something I think we've gotten outdated on. The other thing I would say, and we kind of mentioned earlier, is like this idea of recognition being the glue to your faith. Like, look, man, and I say this as lovingly as possible the demons recognize that God exists.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

That's James 2. And so just because you admit that there's a God up there and you point to the sky when you make a three pointer or whatever, it's like that is different than repentance. Right. The call of Jesus is to not acknowledge He's there. It's to come to this place where it's like, okay, you're God and I'm not. Like you've got to come to the end of your rope, man, where you've tried so hard to build your life and accumulate success and work your way to heaven. And eventually you got to get to this place where it's like, look, I got nothing left, man. I got nothing left. And that type of surrender is the glue of the Christian faith, is recognizing that only by his wounds that you are healed and only by his strength can you live this life. I think a lot of people, Sam, think that, okay, once I get saved, that's by grace, right? But then after I get saved, the sanctification part, like living practically, that's all up to me. And so, yeah, he got me in, he got me to the doorway. But to really get through, like I gotta put the power in. And like the language of John 15, man, is like, look, you can't do anything apart from his strength. Yeah, right? Nothing. And so dependence almost is the goal where weakness becomes strength because you've given him your all. And so I would say those things. Repentance is a big thing, holiness is a big thing. And man, that'll change your life, I'll tell you. It'll change everything about you.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yeah. You know, what do you think people need to see, know, or experience to get to that point, right? Because a lot of times I I don't know if you uh directly shared this, but a lot of times Christians will just be living kind of like a mediocre Christian walk, and there's something that happens. And I've seen two different responses. So they go through a time of suffering, and because of their you know, uh lukewarm faith, they deconstruct and say, you know what, God, you're not who you say you are. I devoted my life to you. I was serving every Sunday at church, I was doing all this, and now I, you know, I lost my son, or this relationship faded out. And I don't know if I can trust you. And they leave the Lord, right? So there's that person, and then there's the other believer who they go through suffering and they don't understand, they have questions, they have doubts, but they have what I call the Peter moment, where when Jesus asks them, you know, are you gonna leave me too? Person says what the Christian says, uh, where do I go, Lord? You have the words of eternal life. I'm gonna stick here, right? I'm gonna stay here. So um, what do you think people need to see, hear, know, experience? So that they get to a point where they realize, you know what? I've been living a lukewarm faith. What needs to happen?

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah, that's a great

Gratitude Familiarity And Suffering

SPEAKER_01 24:26

question, man. Uh, to sum it down to one word, it's gratitude. Um, I was talking to a friend the other night, man, someone who I would categorize in lukewarm, you know, that that camp. And you know, he's he's been trying to surrender his life, but really attached to the world still and doesn't want to give up his old things. And I I'm like, you know, hitting him with these questions, like, dude, what do you believe about this? And like the gospel, do you believe the gospel? And like, do you think you can work your way there? He's like, No. And he's like, I know, like, I know this stuff, I know that Jesus is the only way, and I know that he loves me. And then I asked him another question, I said, Do you actually love him? Like, yeah, you you he may love you, you may subscribe to that, but do you love God? And he's like, No, like I don't love God. He admitted it. He admitted it. He admitted it wholeheartedly. And I told him, I was like, Look, if you don't love God, you will see no need to give your life to him because ultimately you aren't grateful for anything that he's done. You know, like if you don't see the cross as the focal point of the entire history of the world, where it's like God demonstrated his love towards us that while we're sinners, Christ died for us. If you don't see that as the greatest form of love, you'll never surrender. Ever. You'll never surrender. And so, gratitude, dude, is almost the thing that leads to transformation. Like, we try so hard in our own power and strength to like white knuckle life and get it together, but only when you are grateful then you surrender, and that's how you see change. Where it's like, okay, God, I can't do it. You sent your spirit to do it for me. Let's do this. It's not going to come from you trying, right? You have to surrender and trust. And the last thing I would say is uh because of your lack of gratitude, you get to this place of familiarity, and familiarity is the breeding ground to apathy. Okay, like if you we get so used to things over a while over a long period of time, and it's like not even a big deal anymore, and it loses its flavor. You know, a good example that I always share is like, you know, you and I would have no problem uh sitting in a floating tube flying a hundred hundreds of miles an hour across the United States. You know, we wouldn't think twice about that. It's called an airplane, but that's crazy. And it's crazy that we're flying in mid-air and and with all these, like we it's crazy, but we're so used to it, it doesn't rock our world anymore. And I think so many of us have gotten so used to the gospel, we've heard it over and over again, sat in the same church pew, said the same prayer, and it's like, yeah, I know that's true. I'm not grateful for it. And if you don't aren't grateful for that, if that isn't your highest expertise, man, I mean you're gonna be susceptible to the dare to the darts of the enemy.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, just to play devil's advocate here, right? Um the person who says, My walk has been full of suffering. You know, how how do you want me to be grateful for all the suffering that I experienced? I literally, this was yesterday. I interviewed um someone else, and this lady, she her brother was killed in the Columbine High School. Um, she lost one of her sons when she had her, I think it was her second baby. And then a couple years after that, she lost another brother to cancer. And it was really interesting to see because it ties into what you're saying about gratefulness. And I said, you know, how after going through all of that, did that at some point make you doubt God's presence in your life? And she says, Sam, I think for a lot of people it does. I don't know what it was, God's grace for sure, but it actually strengthened my faith. I had questions, I had doubts, but it actually strengthened my faith. And um, it was just so encouraging to hear that, but I think that ties into your point of there's even within that, and it doesn't come immediately, there's this gratefulness piece, like outside of that, outside of these major losses that I've had in my life, there's all these other things that are still evident in my life, God's presence, family, and so on. And I I think you're right, man. Like there does need to be this element of gratefulness for the gospel specifically for Jesus dying on the cross for us. And to your point, I do think we forget about that. I mean, even myself growing up in the church, I have to remind myself, I forget who says this. Like, if there's any um practice that Christians need to always be doing is to remind themselves of the gospel, right? So I think you were spot on with that. Um so let's I guess we've we've kind of talked about how people mold Jesus and who they want him to be and so

Jesus As Lord And Eternal Life

SPEAKER_00 28:45

on. How would we describe what who does Jesus say that he is in the scriptures so that people can leave and know that hey, this is who Jesus is, and we'll you know we can reference scripture and different things like that too.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Yeah, he is Lord, as simply as I can put it, man. He's Lord. Like he he is the boss in this guy, bro. And like, yeah, he he's got all authority, all power, and he's coming back in Rose of White to take over the entire world, man. Um, and it's like I want to be on that side of the winning team, you know. Yeah, um, and like the crazy part about it is you know, somehow God himself became the justifier, just became the justifier, and that he saved us from himself, you know. Like another thing I hear all the time is like, why would I worship a God that you know forces me to do blank or you know, he doesn't really love me, or how you know it's not a big it's like, dude, he gave up his son, you know. Like, could you imagine giving up your firstborn son? I mean, it would that would just be astronomically crazy, yeah, you know, for the sake of someone else. And Romans 5 talks about this, like maybe for a good person, maybe, possibly for an even better person, for a sinner, you're gonna give up your only son for a sinner, and that while we're yet sinners, Christ died for us. And so, like, I think if you don't understand, you know, the magnitude of his love for you, man, you're gonna miss it. And ultimately, that comes from an understanding again. I've said this over and over again, but like the world and the story of history is bigger than your 71 years here on earth, man. Like you and I are here and gone. And if we were to leave tomorrow, man, the world's just gonna keep on spinning without a without a hiccup, you know? But what has not changed over thousands and thousands of years is somehow, 2,000 years ago, a carpenter born in Nazareth died on a wooden cross. And for some reason, by God's grace alone, that act of mercy on the cross grants you and I eternal life forever, forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. That goes on forever, man. Like forever means forever. And so when C.S. Lewis says, I'll quote him again, it's called the Great Exchange, where it's like, look, if Jesus really gave me his life where I didn't deserve it, he's now deserving of my life. And so you exchange it, you know, he gave me his life. I'm gonna give him everything. And the promise is when you lose it all, you actually gain it all. I love what Jesus says in John 17, 3. He says, this is eternal life. He's defining it for us. He says that they may know God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. And so somehow, in a weird way, it's completely countercultural to what America says. Eternal life is not just beyond the grave, it's actually knowing God. And you can do that today. Like by the Spirit through Jesus Christ, you can know God the Father in an intimate way, as friend, he says, no longer do I call you servants or slaves, I call you my friends. You can know him in an intimate way so you can live eternal life now. Like that's the start of your new life, is walking with God through everything that you see and face. And so if we prioritize that, man, I think it'll change everything. I love the words of David in Psalm 27. The one thing that I seek is to dwell in the house of the Lord. Aside from everything else, financial gain, you know, climbing the career ladder, getting married for the singles. Like if you can just prioritize who God is, man, He'll change everything. And I can promise you, 500 million years now, when you're dancing in eternity, worshiping the Son of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, you're not going to wonder if you ever missed out on anything.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

You'll never arrive in heaven, I ain't getting to think about anything. It's just not at all, right? Not at all. Not at all. No, that's great, man. That's great. You know, Ryan, I really enjoyed this conversation, man. It's been really great to hear um, you know, how your faith has really shined through through this book and just you know, you sharing here today. Um, is there anything that I missed? Anything that you feel like, hey, you know, I think this is an important point for the audience to take away from our conversation today.

Tares Counterfeits And A Final Warning

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Sure. Um, I'll tell you where the book came from. So there's a a parable um in Matthew 13 that Jesus talks about. And he he's saying, so there's like a farmer who plants wheat seeds, and uh these seeds go into the ground. And what happens during the night is an enemy comes and he plants something called tear. Tear. Some translations call it weeds, but I love the tear word because you know most people don't know what that is. And basically, what tares are are they look like wheat, they smell like wheat. You couldn't tell the difference. But if you were to consume tear, it has chemicals and poisons that would literally kill you. And so what appears is as the same thing, it's actually a master of disguise, right? It's a phony, a knockoff, a fake, a counterfeit. And what happens in the morning is the farmer comes out and he looks at his crop, he says, I could see right through that. I could tell the difference, man. And I think a lot of people are gonna go through their life, and this is my last charge, your listeners. It's like the last thing you want is to go through your life, steady Eddie, not doing anything out of your comfort zone, not fulfilling the call God has in your life. And you get to the gates of heaven, it's like, oh, hey, I've been in church my whole life, and Jesus says, I never knew you. It's the last thing you want, man.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Scariest moment, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Yeah, no one wants that. And again, I'll say this too like, I am not the guy, you know, on the tower throwing stones down, like, hey, get your life together. This was me for a long time. I said at the beginning, like I got really good at appearing as someone I wasn't, where I successfully fooled the world, did not fool God, man. And so I think a lot of people have mastered the art of disguise, and ultimately, man, you got to give them your all. You know, put the perception management away, live the real life, be authentic, you know, live a life of integrity and lay your life down, man. Give your life

Where To Get The Book

SPEAKER_01 34:12

to the creator of the universe and watch what he can do with someone who's fully surrendered.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Amen to that, brother. Ryan, thank you so much for coming on the show, man. I really appreciate again your your wisdom and thoughts on this topic and also just again, obviously seeing what the Lord is doing in your life. And um, yeah, I guess people can buy your book on Amazon and go there, or do you have it anywhere else website, anything like that?

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Yeah, book is available on Amazon. Um, website is just RyanShay.com, R-Y-A-N-S-H-I-E-H. Would love to connect with all your listeners. Absolutely, Matt.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

I'll put it up in the show notes as well. And uh, Ryan, we have to do this again sometime, man.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Would love to, man. Thank you so much, Sam. It's an honor to be on. All right, brother. Everyone else, have a good one.