Where Psychology Meets Theology For Real Healing w/ Dr. Jichan Kim

The “psychology vs theology” fight sounds serious until you realize it often hurts the very people we’re trying to serve. I’m joined by Dr. Jichan Kim, associate professor of psychology at Liberty University and a researcher in forgiveness psychology, to map out a better way: a thoughtful integration of Christian theology, philosophy, and psychological science that doesn’t flatten human suffering or sideline Scripture. 

We unpack why many Christians feel suspicious of counseling, where that suspicion comes from, and what gets lost when churches replace soul care with pop psychology or, on the other side, reduce every struggle to “just pray more.” Dr. Kim makes a sharp distinction between science and scientism and explains why data never interprets itself. We also talk about how theology shapes our view of the person through creation, fall, and redemption, and why sin affects every aspect of life without making therapy pointless or faith optional. 

Then we go deeper into philosophy, naturalism, and supernaturalism, including why some people try to explain miracles away and why Christians don’t need to fear honest inquiry. We end with a sober conversation about suffering and theodicy, plus practical wisdom for pastors, counselors, and friends who want to avoid cheap answers and offer real empathy. 

If you care about Christian mental health, biblical counseling, therapy, attachment theory, and building a more faithful approach to healing, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this with someone who’s wrestling with these questions, and leave a review with the biggest takeaway you’re sitting with.

Transcript

Welcome And The Big Question

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. As always, I'm excited that you're here learning about attachment, attachment theory, God attachment, and all the things related to that topic. And uh today I will be discussing along with Dr. Dishon Kemp the importance of integrating psychology and theology. And in a lot of ways, this is kind of how the podcast started where I knew that there was value in theology, like that was the strong foundation for seeing the world around me. And then there was this introduction of psychology, which for me was okay, this is still somewhat worldly, like it has a lot of these old traditions, uh the new teachings from these psychologists. But so I was skeptical. But today, along with Dr. Kim, we're gonna talk about is there a meeting place for both of these fields that God has given us through um both special and general revelation? So um, Dr. Kim, welcome back to the show because you've been on before.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah, I think uh I was on your show maybe I don't know, a couple of times or three times. Yeah, yeah, I don't remember. We've done so much. So good to be back. Yep, good to be back.

Dr. Kim’s Path Into Psychology

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Yeah, yeah. I'm excited to have you, sir. And um, yeah, every time, you know, we don't know who sees the episodes. Um, but what I like to do at the beginning of the show is just kind of give you some time to introduce yourself um and give a little bit of background and just your interest in this particular topic today.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, so my name is Jitan Kim. Uh I'm a professor, associate professor in the department of psychology at Liberty University. I uh do research on forgiveness. Forgiveness psychology is in my area, and um uh I teach stats, everyone's favorite, in the department of psychology, and I also teach uh the integration of psychology and theology. So that's the topic that we're gonna be talking about, but uh it is a course that I also uh teach uh at Liberty University too.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, yeah. And what what's interested you in that topic of integrating psychology and theology? Because you have, I think you have degrees in both fields, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

So actually uh the interesting thing is that uh the only psychology class that I took uh when I was in college was psychology of religion, and um uh it was under Jewish studies because uh many of the early uh psychologists, I mean humanist psychologists, humanistic psychologists, many of them are Jewish. So there was a course on psychology of religion, and um I read like Abraham Meslow, Eric uh Fromm. Uh, you know, many of them are you know Jewish, they had uh Jewish backgrounds. So uh I got into psychology much later in my life. I went to seminary, I spent five years at Gordon Connelly Theological Seminary, and then later, you know, I got into uh psychology because I thought psychology is something important in order to uh reach people, you know, in order to help other people, serve other people, you know, uh I realized that I really have to understand where they come from, you know, how they think, why they behave the way they do, right? Or how they feel, you know. So without understanding uh, you know, the people you want to serve, right, uh you won't be able to really uh help them go where they must go in life. So I began studying about uh psychology much later. So naturally, right? I because I majored in, I mean, I studied theology, right, in seminary, naturally I was interested in thinking about uh all these uh different truth claims and uh how to make sense of uh maybe uh if there are some contradictions, how do I make sense of it, right? Sense of the contradictions, and you know, I was uh thinking about uh how to uh discover more like uh underlying truth, what is truly true? You know, that was the question that I always always had.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

And and did you ever find it difficult to marry those two things together to find some common ground between them? Like what were some of the big contradictions that you found or or or similarities?

SPEAKER_01 4:25

So interestingly, um initially I didn't find a lot of contradictions, and part of it is uh I studied forgiveness psychology. So forgiveness, uh it's a I mean, you know, forgiveness is not uh necessarily the main topic, you know, today, but um forgiveness is a moral concept, you know, you have to define it philosophically and you have to understand it theologically too. So naturally, I would look for, you know, uh, what is it, uh, you know, common characteristics about forgiveness uh from theology, philosophy, and psychology. So I don't think I found a lot of contradictions. Uh, but then, you know, as I begin uh to study more about psychology, you know, I begin to see that when it comes to underlying assumptions, right? Uh people who develop theories, people who uh study psychology based on their worldview assumptions, you know, I realize that uh there can be a lot of uh differences.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

So I mean, I could come up with many examples, but um, you know, you already know that uh Freud, right? Uh he thought of um uh religious people as having a neurosis, you know, not they didn't really grow out of their childish uh fear, right? And if someone's uh telling Christians that, oh, grow out of your uh childish fear, your insecurity, then Christians have to react to those claims, you know, telling them that we're not the one who invented God, you know, God exists, we believe in God the Father, and uh all human beings, you know, they are longing for you know God or you know the father figure, you know, it's not just Christians who invented God, you know. So we have to react, we have to tell them that they are not right, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Yeah.

Why Christians Fear Counseling

SPEAKER_01 6:12

So I did find a lot of uh contradictions or you know, uh assumptions that are not solidly based on reality within psychology uh later on.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

No, that's that's a that's a good point. I wonder, um, as we think about this, or before we kind of start and dive into the topic, what are some maybe misconceptions that people have that Christians have about psychology, right? There's there's a huge push in culture about everyone should go to counseling. Like that, that's kind of like this cultural push. Like if you don't go to counseling, you're not dealing with your stuff, you're really not um being your full self, and so on. And it's kind of crept into the churches too, where I've seen a lot in churches where the gospel and the preaching of the word has kind of been put to the side. And what some pastors are starting to kind of lean on is teaching kind of psychological principles, motivation, and and all these different things. That seems to be the direction, it's a more popular type of movement. Um, and I don't know if that's actually helpful for pastors to be going in that direction. Now, I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, so it kind of might that informs a lot of the way that I think about how uh church or preaching is conducted, but I've also learned a lot about um maybe the church should be more focused on meeting the needs of people, the soul needs, and so on. Um, but I'm I'm curious what you think of what are some misconceptions that Christians have about psychology or counseling in general?

Science Versus Scientism

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Uh that's a great question. And uh, I think I'm sure I could go in many different directions with a better question. But um maybe I don't know, you know. I mean, you're talking about Christians uh who are in favor of counseling or who are rejecting counseling. I guess uh there might be rejecting counseling. So I mean, just like uh the Freud example, if you're thinking about uh Freud as someone who is representing psychology, then um uh they probably have to say no to that version of um psychology as an example. You know, uh uh you know how uh Freud Freud was uh saying uh we develop our personality as we uh satisfy our sexual desires, meaning his uh reducing we are uh to uh you know maybe a feature of who we are. We're sexual beings, but that's not the whole of who we are, then some Christians should you know push back against that idea. Or uh the common one is that I don't think this is uh actually uh only from uh other Christians, but whenever I tell other people that I study psychology, uh they tell me, uh yeah, do not try to read my mind, right? So if uh Christians are thinking that uh psychology and counseling, it is about reading someone's mind, uh manipulating someone's mind, then um automatically Christians uh should try to guard their you know mind, heart and mind, right? That that'll be the automatic uh reaction. Um so these uh uh uh ideas about psychology and counseling, where Freud is the representation of uh what psychology or psychotherapy is, and also the idea that uh you know Christian uh psychologists are trying to read someone's mind or manipulate someone's mind, you know, these can be barriers, right? Uh and another one uh that I was uh thinking about is uh sometimes uh science is seen as uh a source of truth that undermines uh the authority of the Bible, uh because uh the common language in our time. Even the example that you talked about, like professional counselors, they're professional counselors, they license, you know, uh, and uh whatever they talk about, it's based on science. But what is wrong with talking about things that are based on the Bible, you know? So culturally, right, a lot of people put more weight on science. So maybe Christians might be, you know, push back, you know, might uh push back against that uh uh shift of uh power or authority, you know. A lot of uh people in our time, they look at science and well, this is what science says, so Bible must be wrong, or your pastor must be wrong. Well, your pastor is not licensed. What does he have to say about all these issues? You know, but then uh uh if there are Christians you know who are skeptical about you know counseling because of this uh power struggle, I think uh there is something, you know, something that uh uh we have to uh remember. Maybe uh science itself uh is not really uh threatening uh Christianity, but scientism, you know, uh thinking that science is the final arbiter of truth might be threatening you know Christianity. So we have to fight against scientism, you know, telling the world that uh for both Christians and non-Christians, uh, you know, science matters, scientific evidence is important, but science is never the final arbiter of truth. Why? Because if you know uh all the main assumptions behind science, right? People who make interpretations of scientific data, there are metaphysical assumptions and worldview assumptions that are at play. So, you know, data doesn't uh speak for themselves. So, you know, we have to remind them that we do not have to fight against science, we should probably fight against scientism. Um but of course, uh it's hard to uh convince a non-believers that uh science is not the final arbiter of truth, but at least uh for other Christians, uh, we should you know try to convince them that uh that's not the that shouldn't be the way, you know. We could welcome science without uh falling for scientism.

Theology, Sin, And Human Nature

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah. And that's a good distinction between the two, that we can appreciate uh data and research that people do and see if there is any contradiction with with scripture. And I think what we usually see is that at some point research tends to agree with a lot of scripture. I mean, you do your research on forgiveness, we see a lot of support there in scripture. Um, the impact or the influence of religion, going to church, having community, all that in the research is very well founded of the importance of those communities, right? Um, so we we spoke a little bit here about psychology and its tenets and also what it contributes. How does theology inform our view of humanity, of mental health issues? What would you say uh regarding that, our theological perspective?

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah, so well, I know theology and philosophy, you know, they are not the same, but then a theology is study of God, and uh, you know, through theology, you know, we can learn about how God sees things. And that's how we are supposed to see the world, because God is the creator, he knows uh his uh reality uh much better than all of us do. Therefore, we have to rely on theology to see things uh uh more truthfully, you know, according to the way God created. So I would say, I would argue that uh theology and philosophy, you know, uh like metaphysical assumptions or uh you know the way God uh sees our humanity, right? Or the way God created us to be, those are actually have to be uh foundation, you know. Well, secular uh psychologists, you know, they have their own foundation somewhere, you know. They're not thinking about psychology in vacuum, you know, they do have uh certain uh foundational ideas, so we do have to uh think of ideological ideas and philosophical assumptions as a foundation. And I'm not saying that a theology always wins or philosophy always wins whenever there is a you know a controversial uh debate, you know, debate about controversial ideas. You know, we do have to try to look at them uh as faithful faithfully, uh as I mean, look at them as source of knowledge, right? Uh so we have to approach both uh humbly without assuming that my theology is always better, but um without uh realizing that you know God is the author of all truth, he's the one who created everything. If you try to uh read everything based on your own personal assumption, then you might not read things uh careful uh accurately. Yeah. So theology is very important.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

And can you speak a little bit more to the um where the uh fall of man, how that plays a role into uh mental health issues or just into the view of man in general. So for example, one of the um first um episodes that I recorded was on I called it the Genesis of Shame, which is when we broke relationship with God and the Garden of Eden, how since that point forward everything has kind of been on going on a downturn, right? And the idea of getting back to God or to be back to original man in Adam is to try to reestablish all those things that we had before the fall, which was relationship with God, relationship with each other, work and functionality, all of these things that we saw prior to no shame, right? All of these things that were there before the fall. So after the fall, how has that influenced um the way that we relate both to each other and and to God? And that's kind of like a question.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah, I mean, you're talking about the uh sin problem, right? Uh yes, and uh we have to talk about total uh depravity, you know, of humanity. You know, we are totally fallen, there's no way that we could redeem ourselves. So even I'm I'm speaking with you, right, in the back of my mind, you know, I'm uh thinking about how I could uh you know sound uh pretty good, right? Uh we always have to uh manage our uh impression, we try to uh maintain our positive image in front of other people. So sin actually affects uh every single uh aspect of uh who we are. Um so um, you know, when it comes to human psychology or relationship, sin has to be the root cause of all things, you know. So uh you could I know uh if I uh make this uh you know uh statement, probably you're gonna ask me to uh unpack or elaborate more. But then uh for Christians, uh, you know, I think we could say that a sin is the true problem and Christ is the solution. But then when it comes to um addressing issues, and when even when I say Christ is the solution, Christ might be bringing us uh back through many venues, you know, through uh different people, both Christians and non-Christians, through counseling, you know, through uh the you know uh community of believers. There can be can be a many, many uh uh means through which uh God is going to restore us, you know. So uh if we acknowledge that uh you know the way God works in us, you know, we cannot really limit it to maybe uh you know the Bible or you know just counseling, then we can be open to right all uh all things that are out there that God is using to redeem us. But sin is affecting you know relationships, right? Sin is affecting all the things that are you know wrong, you know, or uh imperfect. So that's something that uh Christians uh can acknowledge.

Bible And Prayer Plus Wisdom

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Yeah, yeah. And and Dr. Kim, what would you say? This this was a comment that we would see here often in our programs, is that there was this debate obviously between psychology and theology, and one of the arguments from those who were, we would say like newetic counselors or who had newetic beliefs, J. Addams, so on, um, where we they would say, all we need, all Christians need is the Bible and prayer. If you need counseling or if you need psychology, then really you're lacking a lot of faith, right? So for someone who is experiencing a tribulation, a mental health struggle, some some hardship of some sort, um the belief that they took from that was, oh, I I must be lacking faith because if I had stronger faith, I wouldn't be going through this, right? Or I'm not gonna seek counseling because that means that I'm not now trusting in God to heal me from whatever it is that I'm I'm working through. So just to kind of I guess clarify for the audience, we know that there's people who may have that perspective. What do you say to that person who says, all we need is the Bible in prayer? Because it sounds right and it sounds good, and it is good, but something's missing. We're missing something in that message that really captures the whole of humanity and of being able to help each other and so on. Uh, what what do we say to that person?

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Yeah, so first, uh my belief is that uh we need uh more biblical counselors, we need more professional counselors, we need uh both. That'll be uh you know uh my uh first response. So it's not like uh we only need right uh licensed counselors are helping other Christians. It's not like we only need biblical counselors who are helping other Christians, we need uh both. I think uh there is a way, if we could find a you know good way, right? I think we need to find a way to uh work together, you know, for the uh for God's kingdom and to uh serve other people under our care. Uh that would be my first response. And um regarding your question, um I think uh uh yeah, I was thinking about a couple of uh responses, I think I already forgot one of them, but um, you know, does the Bible contain all truth, every single truth that we need to know? If the Bible is written for a certain purpose, right? Um, and uh we can think about uh the main purpose and secondary purpose, if the Bible is uh, you know, uh written for a certain purpose, because oh, you know, God is the author of the Bible, God gave us the Bible, then we have to think about why God gave us the Bible. And what if uh God didn't necessarily uh give us the Bible so that we could use the Bible as a counseling text? There might be uh relevant information about how to counsel people, how to encourage other people, how to help other people, right? There could be relevant information, but if uh uh the main purpose of the Bible is not that, then um, you know, why not? You know, God uh might have uh given us other sources or uh I mean through psychology or other fields, uh God is uh giving us or revealing Himself through other branches of learning, then why not use uh other branches of learning or knowledge and truth discovered in other branches of learning to better serve uh God?

SPEAKER_00 21:56

So I would say why not general revelation, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:59

General revelation. Revelation. Why not have a more expansive, expansive view of uh God's, you know, uh truth instead of uh thinking that the Bible is the only book that contains truth about how to help other people. So I would, you know, tell them to have more expansive view, do not limit, you know, uh God to uh God as uh like being only in the Bible, right? God is not only in the Bible, God is not only in the mind, in our mind, you know, God is the real God, his sovereign over all things. So uh I would say, why not consult you know all things that are out there, you know, uh that are given to us to uh use to serve other people.

Integration Views And Calling

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Yeah. And the Bible talks about that too, right? It says that he reveals himself through through his creation. And um, I I I love that passage because we can look at the world around us and just see um God and everything. Not that God is everything, because that can be a misconception or not a misinterpretation as well, where God people believe that God is things and he's not, but God reveals himself through his creation. Um, that just reminded me is I'm I'm driving down the when we're driving down the freeway, um, we usually come home like around 5:30 or 6, I'm with the boys, and they'll look at a sunset and they'll say, Daddy, that's so beautiful. God is such a great artist, huh? And I that is amazing. Yeah, he is. So even in that, in that beauty, that they're able to see part of God's character in that. And um, so I think that as we're referring to this idea of you know how God reveals himself to us, yeah, that those are some elements of that. Um, so how do we integrate properly, Dr. Kim? I mean, obviously, you know, being in the class of psychology and Christianity, we taught that course before. Um, how do we help people tie these two things together, like make sense of both of these? And typically, what I find is that either one is going to lean more towards psychology and maybe someone leans more towards theology. So, how do we help them see the benefit of both of those fields, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yeah, it actually is a challenge because um I guess um if you see uh yourself as an expert in psychology, it's likely that you know more about psychology, and um you might be uh more like a lay theologian and you might lean toward psychology because you're more comfortable with psychology. Well, of course, though you gotta be uh careful because you know more about psychology, if you develop some sort of uh uh what is it, um, negative attitudes toward the other, you know, that's not good. But you know, naturally uh we might lean toward something uh we know more about, you know. Theologians, they're in the field of uh theology and uh they have to tell other people why theology is really important, you know. They are studying theology because it is important, and they might know something about psychology, but then uh they're not expert psychologists, so they might lean on you know more on theology. So I think uh so this is actually uh something that I try to do often. So because uh I study theology first, but my uh terminal degree uh was in psychology, but then I'm like constantly reminding myself, theology is important, and also I actually uh you know uh think that philosophy is very important. Philosophy is important, theology is important, psychology is important, and sometimes I when I read like a couple of books on you know psychology, I'm like, okay, I have to read some books on theology. Oh yeah, now I shouldn't forget about you know philosophy. Yeah, but it is hard, you know, we don't have all the time in the world, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Where do you lean towards Dr. Kim? Like, is there like a favorite that you have? Like, where do you lean towards typically?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Uh um actually, uh you know, uh in the class, you know, that we taught uh integration of psychology and theology, I think uh and twistle, right, the textbook author, right, his uh promoting allies view, and which is uh also known as integration view. Many Christian universities that uh provide or offer major in modern psychology, they lean toward integration view. But I actually tell students that uh they could choose any of the views as long as they truly understand pros and cons, and uh you know, as long as they could defend their position. So the enemies model, no, no, no, no, no, no, not enemies and not spies.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

I don't want them to become an enemy, I don't want them to become become a spy. Also, out of uh five views, five views, yes, yeah, five views, but four of them, you know, they yeah, I hope I hope your listeners understand what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

That was my position.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah, but then uh, you know, there are some views that are adopted by uh you know conservative, evangelical, bible-believing Christians, and they do not agree with each other about everything, right? Yeah, so I tell my students that as long as uh you uh know what you're talking about, right? I don't want you to just choose ally's view because other people choose it. I don't want you to just choose uh you know what the other because uh you know other people like it, or someone you like, you know, chose this view. So as long as I could defend it. And uh, you know, uh so right now, you know, um, you know, if you're asking me which one you lean toward, uh, I will say it depends on the topic, you know, it depends on the topic and depends on your ministry context. That's why I could actually uh tell students that if you want to become a biblical counselor, you know, I yeah, if that's uh God's call for you, then please, you know, study more about how to counsel people based on the uh truth in the Bible, you know. If you're God is calling you to become a licensed counselor, then you know become a licensed uh counselor. If God wants you to become a top, you know, uh researcher in your field, maybe you might have to lean toward you know uh neutral parties or levels of explanation view where they they are Christians, but they you know try to make sure that their uh theological beliefs are not really uh you know influencing the way they you know do uh science. I'm not sure whether or not that's a truly possible, you know, personally, but then uh at least you have to try to do that in order to become you know maybe a top researcher in your field. Uh so it depends on the topic, and also it depends on uh you know God's call for you, you know. So for me, because I study forgiveness, you know, I have to study philosophy. And I do have to uh think about theological meaning behind forgiving other people as Christ has uh forgiven us. So for me, it naturally, right? I cared about uh all three, right? But at the same time, I don't want to turn forgiveness into some sort of uh coping mechanisms or coping strategies only. Therefore, I do have to uh study philosophy and theology deeply as foundations. If not, right, uh, other people who study forgiveness as a psychologist, they might say, Oh yeah, whatever the results in positive benefits, you know, that's what forgiveness is, and that's how we are to promote forgiveness. But I tend to disagree. We do have to philosophically uh examine what forgiveness and is not, and theologically, you know, think about uh what Christ has done when he forgave us. And based on those foundations, uh, we could uh conduct research and advance the field of forgiveness psychology. So it depends it depends on the topic, depends on uh God's call for you. That's how I would respond.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

I I think I successfully avoided, right? You I successfully kind of you know avoided answering, telling you uh which one I lean toward.

Philosophy And Naturalism Explained

SPEAKER_00 30:05

But that was a good answer. You know, I I'm often reminded uh when when I talk or ask that question. Um, I remember reading, uh, I think it was an interview actually that I saw with uh Dr. Larry Crab, and he was kind of one of the first pioneers of trying to see the connection between both of those fields, and he was getting hammered from one side, right? The church was saying, why are you bringing psychology into the church? And then psychologists are saying, Why are you bringing theology or the Bible into psychology and so on? But I remember uh in this interview, he they asked him, um, you know, how do you maintain a balance with everything? And he's like, you know, for every hour of research or philosophical philosophical book or you know, theory that I study, I double that for my study of scripture. He says, I'll read one hour, then I'll read two hours of scripture because I need to keep my mind thinking through that filter of a biblical framework. And it's just it's just amazing to because you see it when he would talk about these different things. So um, yeah, so it's just something that sounds out to me. Um so when we talk about psychology and theology and um how people can uh find a way to connect these two, you mentioned an extra one. You said philosophy is also important. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that why philosophy is important to helping us uh look at these different fields in a wise manner?

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Yeah, so philosophy has several branches. Um so, for example, metaphysics, nature of reality. So oftentimes uh the tension uh between psychology and theology is actually uh because of uh different uh metaphysical assumptions. If you uh believe in naturalism versus supernaturalism, right, it's uh there is a big tension. Uh it is uh related to their metaphysical assumptions. And um, you know, scientists who say that uh God does not exist because we cannot uh observe Him, then you know, uh well actually uh you know, sorry, uh it is actually related, but if they make that a conclusion, right, they're committed to uh naturalism based on their misunderstanding that uh uh misunderstanding that comes from their epistemological commitment that whatever they could uh see, right, uh it exists, whatever they do not see, it does not exist. So I'm trying to uh talk about the relationship between uh metaphysics and uh epistemology. So epistemology, it is about the nature of knowledge and uh whether or not we could uh you know seek knowledge or understand truth about reality. So metaphysical assumptions and um epistemological assumptions, you know, they interact with each other. And um, if uh secular psychologists are saying that you know God does not exist, you know, well things that exist, you know, uh there are only the things that are observable, and then uh they use a scientific method to study you know things that are observable, you know, then and then claim that uh God doesn't exist, then it's uh a circular reasoning, right? But then a Christians that could uh argue, yeah, there are things that are seen that we can study through the scientific method, but Christians can also argue that there are saying things that are unseen, but you know, clearly exist, and we might not be able to uh study them uh uh using scientific method, but that doesn't mean that uh it does not exist. So oftentimes uh you know uh many uh Christians were also in the field of science, uh they make a clear distinction between uh what is it um uh yeah, epistemological methodological naturalism, right? Versus uh metaphysical uh naturalism. Is that is it yeah. So so basically methodological uh naturalism, methodological naturalism would be, you know, we are going to uh study reality using uh scientific method, and we're not necessarily uh committed to uh naturalism. We're going to uh seek scientific and naturalistic explanations by studying about things that are uh seen, the things that can be observed, okay, which actually is a fine. If that's the rule of science, then uh it is a fine. Of course, you have to uh justify whether or not that's a good rule for you know conducting science, but if you're relying on scientific uh methods to study uh reality that can be seen and then come up with naturalistic explanations, then that's fine. You're committed to the method as a scientist without denying God's existence. But if you are uh going with philosophical or metaphysical naturalism, then you're committed to the assertion that uh whatever that cannot be seen does not exist, therefore God does not exist. So two different philosophical ideas or worldview assumptions, and as long as we understand that there is a difference between the two, then we don't have to worry about all those uh uh scientists who deny the existence of God. Because, yeah, you could do science as much as you want, but based on your science, you know, you're you're not gonna find evidence for or against God because uh uh you are committed to studying about things that are seen. But Christians, you know, can study uh using scientific method, what can be seen, but also we believe that uh there is God who is not observed through scientific method. So we could have more again expansive view of reality and you know hold on to our Christian faith while you know fully you know committed to uh scientific advancement. Yeah, so philosophy, right? I resolve the tension by relying on philosophy, you know. So philosophy is something important in order to maybe defend faith, right, or present faith. I'm talking about apologetics here, right? Uh so philosophy is uh something important.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah. No, that that's good. And and just so just so I understand correctly, and maybe even the honesty can have an example. One of the things that just popped into my mind as you were talking about this was how scientists have tried to use scientific explanations for the miracles that we see in scripture. So, for example, when we see the parting of the Red Sea, you know, and it says that, you know, through I think it's through the nostril through his nostril, he blew open the sea or something like that, right? And I remember hearing scientists try to explain that, like, well, there was this gust of wind, and the sea wasn't really a sea, like it wasn't full all the way, you know, it was maybe just a little puddle, or it wasn't as deep as people make it seem, right? So they're they're trying to give a uh a physiological, not physiological, a uh you just you just had it right now, an explanation, a natural explanation for something that was miraculous, right? Or another one that I've heard was when they uh the walls of Jericho, when they walked around the walls of Jericho, the explanation scientifically or observed from observation was that all of those steps in some way weakened the structure of the building, and then when they blew the trumpets, they were at a certain angle that caused the the the building, the the walls of Jericho to fall. So they're they're having these explanations, and I think the reason why they were doing that was to explain that it wasn't God who did it, but rather this scientific, natural explanation for why it happened. Now, just is that what you mean by having a trying to explain the things that are miraculous through scientific means?

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Uh yeah, I think uh I'll I mean uh that's not necessarily what I was uh trying to say, but you're bringing up good examples, right? Uh miracles. If you're trying to explain miracles away, uh relying on scientific explanations, what is the motivation? Why would you want to do that? You know, uh if you believe that miracles are possible, well you might still you know look into uh whether or not uh the source of information that recorded miracles is reliable, right? You still want to you know look look into it, but then if you're trying to explain it away using uh scientific explanations, why it probably has something to do with your commitment to naturalism, you know, you don't want to see miracles as miracles, but for Christians, you know, we could offer them both, you know, the natural world and miracles, both are possible. So when when miracles happen, we celebrate, you know. Uh when uh you know things uh that have patterns continue to happen, we could also celebrate. Wow, God is upholding the natural laws, you know, so we celebrate God, we praise the Lord for you know making sure that uh all of a sudden, you know, the direction of the law of gravitation is not changing, so we praise the Lord. But when miracles happen, right, we could celebrate. So uh something about supernaturalism is that we're not denying uh what is immaterial, what isn't natural, we are uh affirming both what isn't natural and what is uh supernatural, and we know that where what is natural or what is immaterial came from, it is God, right? How he is the creator of all things. But then you know, if there are people who are only studying about the body, only studying about what is natural and material, and then they argue that God doesn't exist, then it doesn't make any sense. Uh they're committed to their uh sort of uh religious doctrine, you know, uh naturalism that they're not trying, they they don't want to see the other side of the world, the full picture of God's reality. But Christians that we don't have any attention, we could offer him both. When miracles happen, you know, God you know did it, and when uh you know uh you know things in the world that have patterns that continue to happen, we you know praise the Lord, you know, because uh He's the one upholding all these things. So we could always have praise the Lord.

Truth Seeking That Draws Us Near

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Yeah, no, it's that's that's really good. Um very helpful for us to understand the value of, as you were talking about, philosophy. Um when we think about integration, and one of the reasons why I was thinking about this topic was I think integration also teaches us about our walk with Christ and um understanding these two fields, how does integration help Christians understand their relationship with God?

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Uh yeah, that's uh uh again, you know, you're always asking great questions. Uh so does truth matter? If you think that a truth matters, right, then then uh, you know, uh don't you think that uh you know you would want to know truth in psychology, truth in biology, truth in physics, truth in you know, uh theology, you know, all truth because all of them are God's truth. God is sovereign over all things and his revealing himself through special revelation. It is special, so we're calling it special revelation, but God reveals himself through right, uh general revelation too. So if you care about truth, then uh truth comes from God. So we want to know you know all truth, the whole truth. And um, this is actually um uh something that I often tell my students. That is the goal of my class, by the way. Uh I tell my students that yeah, let's uh try to uh see truth, God's truth in all disciplines, right? As best as we can. And then ultimately, you know, you might uh you know meet the truth himself, Christ Himself. Then your heart might be transformed. It will be transformed, actually, if you meet try truth himself, right? Uh it's not uh possible that uh your heart is not going to change. And now with your transformed heart, you could better serve God and better serve other people. So truth seeking, I think uh there is an element uh in truth seeking that uh draws us closer to God. And you know what uh and I'm not saying that uh everyone has to come to God in the same way, but then uh you know that there are many who are uh like uh studying uh different world religions out there, seeking truth about God, spiritual matters, and then they you know came to uh faith by encountering you know the truth for himself. And then once they commit to the Lord, then now right uh they're sharing the gospel, you know, telling telling all the world about how great God is and how they experience a conversion by seeking truth, you know. Uh so I think uh we should not really uh fear uh finding out, you know. Truth because our truth comes from God.

unknown 44:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

So it's the seeking of truth that eventually leads us to knowledge in Him.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Right. Because God is a source of truth, then why be afraid of finding a truth about things that we do not know? So study not only theology, not only the Bible, but all things that are out there. And just like uh you said uh your kids looking at the sun, right? Uh wow, our God is uh you know great, you know, he's a great creator, he's a great artist. You know, you might uh find those uh insights, you know, you find yourself in awe of God as you uh maybe uh study uh you know how uh the brain works as an example, you know, how our body works, you know. So I think uh we have to be open to you know learning about you know all things you know that that are out there in God's beautiful creation, then I would think I I think uh it's going to eventually lead us uh closer to God.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Yeah, yeah. I and that just reminded me of of these interviews that I had with um uh it was two other women who got into the new age spirituality, and they talk about how that journey was like they were really in a deep search for truth, a deep search for God, and they were trying out everything. And they said that um new age spirituality was appealing because it was like a spiritual buffet of try this, try that, try that, and eventually something will connect. And they were sharing how they were seeking that out, and they realized that it was empty, and then when they heard of the gospel of Christ, then they started to realize, oh, this is this is real, and eventually, you know, they kind of they converted and yeah, are now kind of sharing the gospel with with uh a lot of people. Um yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

I mean, uh that that's a great example. Uh something that I often tell other people that uh we believe in God because God is uh real. You know, some Christians, right, uh who tend to be more spiritual than um religious, I would say, you know, uh sometimes uh they try to uh put uh God in their uh I mean small space in their mind or in their private lives, right? But um, you know, our God is uh not just in our heart, he's not in our private thoughts, you know, uh or emotions. Our God is actually public God who's uh trying to redeem the whole world, right? His uh uh throwing every single person out there closer to him. So uh my point is uh reality is God's reality. And um uh, you know, there is uh no single space uh in the world that is not under God's uh sovereignty. So instead of uh you know trying to think of God as a some sort of a subjective uh you know mean uh experience, you know, we have to be really open to the whole truth and whole reality in order to fully understand and experience God.

Suffering, Meaning, And Theodicy

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Yeah, yeah. And Dr. Kim, this is more of a, I mean, it's somewhat more of a personal question or more of a question of just kind of your experience. But um when it comes to the idea of mental health issues that Christians are struggling with, um, how does that like any type of pain? And I know we know through scripture how it talks about in this world you will have tribulation, you know, our bodies are tense, they're temporary dwelling places, right? They're not going to be with us forever and so on. But for those people who are struggling with mental health issues and they are, you know, looking at psychology, like if I understand myself better, if I know what I need, if I know these things, then I'll get better. And they end up not really fulfilling that. And others who start looking at scripture and say, if I know God better, if I start studying more, eventually I'm gonna heal and feel better, right? Behind all of that, there's this uh uh element of suffering. And what how does these two fields in a sense move us towards God? And just to share a little bit, I I it's my belief that suffering pushes us towards God because it puts us in a place where we need to find or want to find an answer so badly that we're willing to do anything, even if it means um exploring or going out and and trying to find out what our faith actually is. Um, how have you seen this kind of play out when people are starting with mental health issues or physical ailments? You know, do you think that that pushes them towards God or that it makes them bitter towards God? I know it can be either or, but just to kind of get your perspective on that.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

Oh, I think uh it can be uh, you know, uh either you know direction, you know, it probably uh I don't know. I don't know uh whether or not I could uh pinpoint any uh clear you know factors as to why, right? But then um if through your suffering, if you find true meaning behind your suffering, then you're gonna be uh coming close to God. But then uh you know, if you are personally not satisfied with that meaning, and um if you're trying to look for something that does not exist, then um, you know, maybe uh it's gonna take longer for those people to you know come closer to God. So suffering, there is true meaning behind it. Why? Because uh we we might not know why we have tribulations, but God knows, right? So there's a true meaning behind it, and uh once we find true meaning behind it, we're going to come closer to God. But then uh, you know, if you uh continue to find uh meaning, cannot find it, or or find meaning, uh uh kind kind of a meaning uh that is not really true to uh Christian faith or kind of meaning that God wants us to discover, then you might, you know, well, maybe uh take a longer time uh or have a detour before you uh you know come closer to God. I mean uh we you are asking a question about uh one of the most challenging uh questions uh out there about Christianity, right? Theodesy, right? Uh God is good, he's all powerful, but then why is there suffering? And uh people who uh let's say uh I don't want to even imagine, you know, lost their child, for example, you know, uh they might be really uh crying in their heart and uh you know, maybe a blaming God, right? Theologically, they might understand that uh you know God is good, God loving God, and He knows why, but then um because of the pain, you cannot really overcome it, right? So um some people might uh say, well, maybe uh God God is not perfect, or some people might say God is not in control, maybe uh is uh not uh really uh loving, you know. So you might end up with all these uh incorrect conclusions about you know God. Um of course uh if you look at a more broader theology out there, theologians might not agree, some theologians might not agree with me, but then if God is truly omnipotent, right, omnipresent, omniscient, you know, uh uh then uh you know there must be right reason why we're uh uh having tribulations or struggles, then maybe uh yeah, you probably have to at some point right acknowledge that God is God and I'm not. And then uh sometimes uh jokingly, well jokingly in my class, but then I think uh you know there is some truth to it. I told my students, I don't know everything in this life, but we only know in part. So you might have to, you know, accept the fact that God only uh allows us to know this much, and then maybe uh when you see Jesus face to face, you might have to ask him, you know, uh certain questions. That yeah, a lot of questions, right? I mean, we're not God, so we're not gonna know everything. But then if you think that you could know everything, then you're going to uh change uh uh nature of God by you know, maybe saying that God maybe uh is not really good, he's not really loving, you know, he gave me this uh you know hurt, you know, or uh may made me go through this injustice. So maybe he's not really loving, or maybe he cannot really do much because he let the other person you know do something to my child or you know, to me, so he's not really powerful, right? Um, you know, so you know, theologically, right? Uh uh we might some people might try to justify their feeling and they might end up, you know, or changing uh the true nature of who God is. At some point, we have to acknowledge that uh yeah, God, you know, I don't understand. Sometimes I feel you know really angry, you know, but yeah, I acknowledge that you are God and I'm not God. So maybe uh once when uh Christ returns or when I see you face to face, I'm gonna ask you all these questions, and you better, you know, explain to me why at that point, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. I I interviewed uh a lady earlier this uh this year, and she her sorry, I mean, basically what we're talking about about suffering, and her brother was actually one of the students who got killed in the Columbine shooting, and so she talks about that and the horrible support or advice that people were giving her how to cope with that. She was she grew up as a Christian, so she said that they were trying to comfort her and it's like, you know, God knows the answer why he did. This was right after it had happened, and then as she got older, she started having her family, and she lost her second son. He died within the month or so, and then a year later, she lost her older brother from a cancer, so so many lost, and I was like, How did you not get to a point where you left your faith? And she's like, Sam, that's all I ever knew. I it's all I ever knew, and I knew that none of that aligned with God's character. And that was one of those things that that really spoke to me is that when you know the person from whom you say is your secure base or is your go-to person in times of trouble, uh, you know that at least they're gonna be there to walk through it with you. And it was a real very powerful um uh interview, but it just reminded me of that, like when you were talking about just loss in general and how that could push people away from God or it could bring people closer to Him. And I maybe it'd be good to study and understand like what are those factors that help people cling to their faith more, and maybe others who who um who pull away in that sense. Yeah, yeah.

Helping Without Oversimplifying

SPEAKER_01 54:41

I mean, of course, so we gotta be uh careful not to uh quickly, you know, tell them that God knows everything, trust God, have faith in God. When others are suffering, you know, we have to listen to them, right? As a counselor, you know that uh we have to listen to them, show empathy and understanding, and uh maybe sometimes all we can do is just listen and uh in uh silence, you know, uh you know, show them that we're there to support them, right? So we gotta be really careful when to uh introduce uh some theological ideas. I mean, there might be many noble ideas out there, forgiveness included, right? If we push forgiveness to other people, actually might uh cause them to stay away from forgiveness, you know. Yeah, so we have to gently introduce uh people or gently draw you know people to uh things that are you know noble. I think it goes the same with um evangelizing or preaching the gospel to other people, you know. If we just tell them that you're a sinner, repent right now. If you don't repent, you go to hell, then uh they might react against it, right? Because we are limiting their uh personal autonomy. So, you know, maybe we have to uh establish relationships and then uh you know shout how show how you know great our God is a through relationship, and then when they uh start opening up, then we might be able to you know tell them about you know who God is. So you know there is a difference between the two. So we gotta really uh we need um you know the Holy Spirit's uh guidance and wisdom when we are uh you know dealing with people who are struggling or suffering in life.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Yeah, absolutely, sir. Um to kind of close out our our our topic and conversation, um what would be a good word to share with pastors, counselors, other believers who often reduce um maybe spiritual problems or psychological problems, they just oversimplify. Like it just if you just prayed more, you would be all you would feel better, right? Um, again, just from the interviews that I've had, um, number of people who said that when they went through uh tribulation and they weren't able to get over, they were grieving heavily. And the people around them would say, Well, you just need to pray more. Like that was just the solution in their minds, right? And then you have others who are kind of deterministic, like, oh, well, it's a psychological problem, like this is hereditary, so this is your destiny type of thing. Like this is you're gonna have this forever. God can't free you from this in a sense. And um, yeah, I mean, what what would you encourage other believers, other pastors, counselors to um to do in order to not just oversimplify these issues?

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Yeah, um, so uh if there are Christians out there who are leaning toward one or the other in a more extreme way, then um I would you know tell them to uh maybe I'll two things I would uh you know maybe I'll tell them to uh stay away from these two things of feedism, you know, Christian faith is not only about uh blind faith, you know. Well we believe in God who is rational, who is revealing himself through to us uh through uh many venues or through different disciplines, and God is not asking us for blind faith. You know, uh uh you know uh we have a faith in Christ. Uh and when I say we have faith in Christ, we are not uh having faith in Christ that uh we uh kind of created in our mind to comfort us, right? We're talking about Christ who's real, you know, who was a born and who lived amongst us and who truly rose again. So Christianity actually is a based on reality or based on facts. So uh fight against Fidaism, you know, thinking that uh, you know, Christian faith is about a blind faith, uh, you know, not really realizing that right, Christianity is based on you know truth about reality, and also fight against uh the other one that I uh mentioned earlier, you know, scientism. You know, if you think that science is uh better than subjective biblical interpretations, then uh you're actually wrong. You know, the Bible is uh uh containing truth about God's reality, you know, how God is uh truly establishing relationship with us. So I would you know tell them you know to stay away from theism and scientism, you know, and uh maybe uh try to think about how we cannot really limit God to uh like a little corner somewhere, you know, thinking that uh God cannot really exist outside that you know corner or God cannot do certain things, you know, that are outside certain boundaries that we set.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

So again, have an expansive view of God, right? Expansive view of our truth and be humble and seek truth and uh yeah, try to uh have full experience of uh um you know the God, right, who is our sovereign over all things. That's what I would say.

Final Encouragements And Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 59:54

Amen, brother. Amen. I love that. Yeah, well, Dr. Kim, um, I just want to thank you for again for your time. Uh I I just love this topic so much, and I'm sure we could talk much, much more. I mean, there's so much, I feel like there's always more we can talk about. But thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate the time and your expertise on the topic, and uh hopefully we can do it again sometime.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Yeah, let's do it again. Thank you. Sound good, sir.