How Attachment and Shame Fuel Addiction and How Community Breaks The Cycle w/ Louis Alvey

Addiction doesn’t usually start with rebellion. It starts with relief. Then relief turns into compulsion, and compulsion starts stealing your joy, your relationships, and even your sense of who you are. I sit down with my friend and colleague, Louis Alvey, an addictions clinician and soon-to-be Dr. Alvey, to put clear words to what so many people live in silence: doing the thing you don’t want to do, again and again, despite the fallout.

We break down a practical definition of addiction, then widen the lens beyond substances to process addictions like pornography, gambling, and endless scrolling, plus the emerging reality of AI “relationships” that can mimic connection. We talk dopamine and the pleasure-pain swing that keeps the brain chasing another hit of comfort, and we wrestle with a Christian framework that sees addiction as misplaced worship without turning every enjoyment into a moral panic.

The heart of the conversation is attachment and shame. If the core belief is “something’s wrong with me,” hiding makes perfect sense, from friends, from family, and even from God. We explore why “just try harder” is often what Christians get wrong, and what actually helps: safe community, truth told with love, and radical honesty that pulls people out of isolation and back into real relationship. We end with a challenge for the church to act like a hospital again, welcoming people who are already sitting in the pews and quietly struggling.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. As always, I'm happy that you're here and am thankful for you to be tuning into the topics. As you've seen, I've done a lot of great interviews with uh a number of people, and I'm especially thankful today because I get to interview my good friend Lewis Albee, who is um my neighbor, who is a coworker, who is a friend, and who is in his final stages of HD Double What will be soon be Dr. Albee. So I'm so excited to have you here, Lewis. Thanks for joining me on the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Yeah, no, I appreciate the invite. Um, as uh we're preparing for this, I was thinking back to our last conversation. That was a lot of fun to do, and um hopefully we'll be able to give some good content for the listeners out there. Um I I think it'll be engaging. Yeah, um, I think we both have a lot of experience that we can we can share with people that'll be helpful in around the realm of addictions and like we were just talking about before, those that are impacted um by those that are struggling with addiction.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, one of the things that we were talking about too was just how how does attachment play a role in all of this, and we'll talk about that. Um, I've been noticing from those of you guys who tune into the podcast that those are the episodes that you guys have been really tuning into. I've enjoyed doing the interviews, um hearing some testimonies, but a lot of it is drawn from the experience of um uh other clinicians who are working in the field. And Lewis loves this field, has been working in this field for a very long time. And um, yeah, so Lewis, before I start, you say just kind of give the guests an opportunity to introduce themselves. And yeah, if you just share something about yourself, um, why addictions, and then we'll jump into our topic.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, um, for anyone that listened to the last uh podcast we had, uh, I think I mentioned this that I didn't choose. I actually was like most counseling master's level students, was like, no, I'm not touching that one. And then God made it very evident through a series of encounters and then an interest uh that he spurred in me that this was gonna be one of the specialties that I was gonna be focusing in on. Um, so it seemed inevitable in some ways, and then um getting into it, I said, Well, isn't this just how everybody works? Like that's true. So it just seemed to be um it seemed to it seemed to come naturally in many ways. So that was very helpful. And then um the absolute need that's out there, right? So anyone that interests the helping promote, I would think most people learn into the helping profession are doing that because they they either see a need or um they see a uh group or population of people with a need that kind of resonates with them, and then they continue to pursue that. And I feel like that that was my journey of like, man, this is this is everywhere. This permeates uh so much of our communities and our culture and um yeah, our churches for that matter as well. So I I couldn't not, as they would say. Um and then um, where we worked, we're also colleagues at CAPS at Liberty University. And so when I came out there all those years ago, too, it was just like off to the races. Um, so uh I've been very uh blessed and fortunate over the years to have uh really good mentors around me, especially early on that encouraged me and really um uh cultivated that field of growth for me in those areas. I'm uh always grateful uh for them. And then again, there's um it is unfortunately an all-too common experience for people. So there's just a lot of um great professionals out there that keep um investigating, researching, and uh coming up with great tools and resources for us in the field to be able to positively impact. Um, and not that as clinicians, we can't, you know, um the sun for us doesn't rise and set on how effective we are with an individual, right? Their growth is theirs. Um but it's hard not to not to really rejoice with those um that you get to experience freedom with them when you're working with them. And you can see anything from a light bulb or an aha moment to all the way to like full lines. Like, no, I'm in break, I'm I'm in recovery at this point, or I'm you know, I'm that is no longer part of my life and part of my story because it is so transformational, because addiction is a consuming thing, and um, it takes up so much of that person and I'd argue uh their identity uh and who they are, and to see a wonderful transformation like that, that's that that can be addictive for a clinician, too, right? It's like, oh man, I couldn't get more of that. Yeah, um, so it's like I said, I think it was an inevitable uh kind of thing, which I did not have my hands on the steering wheel though. I'm just grateful that that God graciously uh led me into that and in any way, shape, or form that I've been helpful in other people's lives. Um, all glory to him for that.

Why Lewis Chose Addiction Work

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, absolutely, brother. And you know, we're thankful for that too, because like you said, some of us are called to that, some of us don't want to be or feel not uh equipped to um help certain populations, and God either gives us the skills to be able to do so, or he just opens up a burden in our hearts. And I think that's kind of even how this um podcast came to be just the heart for wanting to restore what relationships can be after so much um damage in relationships and so on. So that was part of why we want to start this topic on addiction, because it does break apart a lot of important relationships and key relationships. And I think just for the audience to hear and understand a little bit more about what addiction is, how what is it, how is it defined in whether it be in the literature or just what is addiction and what are the different types of addiction?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Yeah, a really good um deaf working definition, we'll call it, that I've heard um a lot as of late, is addiction is the compulsive behavior despite negative consequences. So this compulsive returning to something, despite there being you know, ongoing and sometimes like significant magnitude of negative consequences associated with it. And asclinicians are probably like, well, that's not diagnostic. And I was like, no, no, that's it's I think it's a good working term.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Um, our our the guy that we both admire so well, Andrew Huberman had another one. It's like it's this um increasingly narrowing um scope or view or even appetite of what brings someone pleasure or joy. So it is this, it's this draw and um, like I said, not diagnostic in nature, but I think it's a very helpful, just that um that definition alone is very helpful um for people to start to begin to kind of get in that mindset or that headspace of like, well, what are we talking about? It's like it it's something that is increasingly consuming um the day in and day out life, and oftentimes cognitive and emotive uh faculties of someone, even in the face of um keep calling them negative consequences, oftentimes it's um societal or uh relational um harm.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yeah, yeah. And are there different types of addictions? Are there some that are more common than others? Um, some that are stronger than others. I often heard that, and I'd be very interested in what your thoughts are on this, but I heard that sexual addictions are often more difficult because it's a natural thing that's a natural response for uh male and females, the with sexual addictions in and of itself with the other addictions, alcohol or drug addictions, there's something that you're consuming that provides that. Do you find any truth to that?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Um, yeah, let me answer that. I'm gonna take a step back real quick, and we can separate, kind of crudely separate the two into substance or chemical-related addiction. Okay, and then what we now call process addiction, or we used to think of them like behavioral addiction. So your sexual addictions, uh very common among males is pornography use. Um, on and gambling is another one, um, increase in uh social media, and the and the newest um one is this uh unhealthy reliance and dependence, we would say, on um not just social media, but AI is taking off too, which is like addiction, addiction. Yeah, so it's it's um again kind of crudely like people falling in love with their AI agent. So there's there's all kinds of stories, it seems like every single day, of more and more people, um, because the AI agent spots, whatever, are are doing what they're designed to do, which is to show an affinity for that person and to tailor responses and engagement um to that person, whoever whoever the human is on the other side of that equation. And I think you can probably understand why that would be potentially consuming and or addictive, yeah. If again we're in an increasingly a little hyperbolic, but we're increasingly isolated society, right? Like loneliness and isolation, especially among Gen Z, uh all-time high. And if I'm lonely and I'm isolated, but there's this thing, because that's what AI is, is a thing as much as it would like to convince you that it's not, um, that affirms everything that I say, that thinks that everything that I say is great. Right. Yeah, yeah. When these crazy stories happen of, well, this person uh left her husband, this is a recent one, left her husband of so many years and children to date her. It was Chat GPT boyfriend.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Was it like an AI Avatar type thing, or is the AI the app itself? Which I've seen both.

Defining Addiction In Plain Words

SPEAKER_01 9:39

So from what I understand, it was um the persona, so to speak, was developed through Chat GPT and it was tailored. Um, it was initially built and tailored to do that for her to have someone to talk to, and then it obviously evolved from there. And that's just one of um an unfortunate many of those type of examples that we're seeing in increasing um, and the unfortunate part is it's meeting a very real need too, right? Again, increasingly isolated, socially disconnected, uh physically socially disconnected um culture. It's like, well, this machine is here acting as a person, affirming um in very grandiose ways, really making me believe that I'm seen and they value and they I hate, I really try to say I was personifying these things. Yeah, I think that's part of the slippery slope. Right. Um and yeah, we can it's not that it's not that outlandish, right? We're we're in those are the waters that we're we're swimming and navigating in right now. Um I'm sorry, a little bit of rabbitrail there, but what what does that have to do with addiction? Well, my argument is um that if given humans enough time, we will become or have the propensity to become addicted to anything. All right. And so I feel confident saying that because I'm not a smart man, but I I listen and read to smart people. Like uh we talked about her last time, Ola Limke, fantastic um psychiatrist out of Stanford, just came out with some new material from what I um understand. I haven't delved fully into it. But one phrase um I think that she got from other researchers there at Stanford was there this um this commoditization of uh relationship. So between social media and I'm sure AI bots fall in that same category, AI agents fall in that same category. Um our inherent need and desire to be to have a relationship, to be in relation with something is now um up for the highest bidder with the most advanced AI or social media algorithm out there. And we'll we'll pause there, I'll pull us back in. But uh, for anyone listening, um, there she's she recently did a great podcast, or maybe it's not recent, I saw recently, or portions of it recently on the um should I be promoting other podcasts on this podcast? Yeah, we'll um I didn't even know about this guy. He's like apparently one of the biggest podcasters, but Diary of a CEO. Okay, I do, yeah. I didn't know anything about him until he's very and um real good friend of mine turned me on to him, and um, and then one of the first podcasts after that I saw I was like, Oh, he's got Anna Limke on there. Who is this guy? You know? Um, and so I haven't seen all of uh she's been on there a couple times, I believe. I haven't seen all of her stuff, but that was one piece of the um podcast that I saw was uh her coining, I believe coining that phrase, the um commodification of relationship. And I was like, that is spot on, man. That is exact, unfortunately, that is exactly where we and so many people find themselves um nowadays. So, but sorry, same, you gotta point me back in, man. I'll go everywhere. Anna Limke, um, and her similar work for me, and she's been around for a long time doing tremendous work in the field for decades, was um Dopamine Nation was the book that she put out, where she really um articulated the dopaminergic cycle and really kind of in my mind broke the code on how um dopamine and our reward circuitry circuitry um impacts, influences, and enforces uh this addiction cycle. So we we talked about this last time too, the the teeter-totter of pleasure versus pain, and that you know, um we experience pleasure, uh our body and brain wants to stay in homeostasis. So there's an equal amount of um pain that it um induces uh to be able to return to homeostasis. Um to not to kind of rehash a lot what we were talking about last time, but that's I say all that to say that's why I feel like I stand on firm ground when I say give us enough time. And and then even before, and as great as Analymke is, pales in comparison to our theologians of old who would say uh our heart are perpetual idol factories. So again, um uh another uh a great way of thinking about this, I believe, is addictions from a biblical Christian perspective is a misaligned form of worship. So we are giving reverence, our time, our attention, our heart, our affection to whatever this thing is. And so some people will push back and be like, no, no, no, we can find enjoyment in things, and that doesn't necessarily mean we're addicted to it, we're not worshiping it. I was like, sure, yeah, all the time. I think that we can always engage humans have the capacity to enjoy the wonderful creation that God's given us and things in there and not necessarily be addicted to it. They're all good, but I I know my condition, I'll put this on anybody. I know my condition, and my propensity is to turn a good thing into an idol, into a uh a thing that is unworthy of the amount of time, energy, affection that I give to it. And so that could be something certainly on the chemical side, alcohol is one of the um long-standing ones, has a ton of study and research behind it, um, all the way down to scrolling on social media. Yeah. You know what I mean? And um if we understand that dopaminergic cycle, we can understand differently, but in a similar capacity, it's um tripping that same pain pleasure teeter-totter reward feedback loop that we're in that we talked about last time, that eventually pleasure's long gone. And what we're trying to do is just somehow ameliorate the pain that we're constantly and constantly facing.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

I keep on thinking about you, I mean you just mentioned just the dopamineergic cycle, dopamine cycle, um, and how real relationships do bring a boost of dopamine. Oh, yeah. That's good. And because they do that, if they're not receiving any more dopamine in those relationships, they're looking for it elsewhere. And I'm thinking it's gonna be any of those other things. So is it fair to say that one of the root causes of dopamine or dopamine of addiction is the lack of human connection? Or what would you say is kind of like why do people get into addictions? Not so that they wake up one day and say, Oh, I'm gonna be addicted to alcohol or drugs or sex, right? There's a loss of connection somewhere along the way, or there's a huge amount of pain that the only way to deal with that if I'm not connected to people is to find something else that will give me pleasure or alleviate some of that pain. Yeah, is that a fair statement? How would you what would you say is the root? Why do people get addicted to things? You said given enough time, we can get addicted to anything. But what pushes us in that direction? Because if I have healthy relationships, I would assume that maybe I would be less likely to um be introduced or to take on some form of addiction.

Process Addictions And AI Companions

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Um two points on that. So one, um, we know that environmental factors are huge. Uh think of access, right? The more access we have, we'll cycle substances, the more access we have to crack cocaine in our neighborhood growing up as a kid, we know that there's a higher potential for uh initial use and then obviously um developing an addiction.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Um but that's if there's no connection in the home, would you say that? Because I have access, so there's people in my neighborhood who are using and abusing. But if my parents are loving and caring and saying, hey, there's gonna be things that you're gonna be exposed to in the world, and you got to be careful and you're showing them love and you're showing them care because they feel connected, they take it serious, and they may not be seeking that out, even though they see it with their friends.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Yeah. So I think like my mind goes back to like our different research models, and the social connection would be called a protective factor, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

And so, yeah, a little bit like we talked about last time, I believe we talked about capacity, right? And so the more that the addiction takes that uh think of it like um bandwidth on internet, the more that it takes that bandwidth, the less that other um aspects of our life have to draw uh on. And so the inverse is true as well, I believe. So the more we're connected uh in community and relationship, the more of our bandwidth, our social bandwidth is absorbed by that. And that I believe that it acts as a protective measure against forming those addictions, right? Just because I have access to it or because I grow up in a neighborhood where there's an abundance of crack cocaine or whatever we're gonna say, um, doesn't mean that I'll A try it, right? Or B, if I somehow do come against her or I do try it, I'm going to that's gonna have to override again that protective measure, that family, that connection that I have. Um so yeah, so community and relationships are a powerful protective factor, um, which is wonderful uh in so many ways. And again, like we said before, the opposite of addiction is connection, is community. So addiction by virtue by nature isolates us more and more and more back of that human um hope. It's a narrowing of those things, right? So I'm having to shed all of these other aspects and good aspects of my life as this becomes more and more consuming. And so the I argue the inverse of that is true as well. So if I'm investing and pouring myself out in these other relationships and forms of connection, then the addiction has less and less room to occupy space um and occupy my my physical, emotional, cognitive space as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yeah. And I'm sorry, brother, I think I took you off your you said the first point was um the culture or the society around the that ex more exposure. Okay. Um and then what was you said there was a second, a second part of it as well, like things that make us more prone to addiction. You said exposure, society, or something like that. And then oh man.

unknown 20:31

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

I went too far down the rabbit trail. I forgot to remain. Um it'll come back. If it'll come back, it'll come back to us. It'll come back for us. Um, yeah, you know, and I think one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation too is because as Christians, I think sometimes, and this is one of those hard realities that I really struggle with it because I say I want to do everything right, right? I have three boys, and um, I'm trying to do my best to invest in them, protect them, and so on. Yeah, but I know that the pool of feeling connected or feeling included in their friend groups as they continue to get older, get stronger. And if they don't feel connected, and I and I worry about that. So what that's why I make such an emphasis on connecting with them, um, is that that will be a temptation or a potential um avenue for them. So I do um think about that. I don't worry about it because I know that the Lord, you know, is guiding me through this process and helping me see things, but at the end of the day, they're still gonna make their own decisions. And how would I respond if that's the case? And I think for a lot of Christians, when they're they think just because they go to church or because they have their kids involved in things, that that that's gonna take care of it. But what I've seen in my own experience working with um uh students in middle school and high school is that if the parents themselves are not investing in their kids and they're just expecting the church or the teachers or other people outside that to do the work for them, then usually there's a disconnect. Yeah.

Dopamine Loops And Misplaced Worship

SPEAKER_01 22:01

I saw that a lot in the church. I mentioned him before. Um, so I'll bring him up again. Ryan, I'm saying his name wrong. I apologize. Ryan Stova, I believe. Um he would be um, he would be the expert in this field. He's an addiction expert working out of uh Florida, I believe, in the residential setting. Um, and he is um yeah, he is really honed in, dialed in, I believe, through years of experience he has with how those um childhood formations and attachments really do impact um the formation um or maybe even again protective measures against addictions as um as individuals get older. So I guess I'll punt that one a little bit. I'll speak to what uh I guess I'll speak to what I know is that um well none of us are greater than the apostle Paul, as much as I love you, Sam. Like we're none of us are greater than the I am with you on that. And so I I heard recently um the the verse from Paul that says, uh the things I don't want to do, I do. Right? The wretched man that I am. And I said, That sounds like addict talk to me. That sounds like exactly what addiction is, right? Now I'm not saying uh Saint Paul was an addict, so don't please don't hate me or hate me, that's fine too. Um, but but that language is addiction language, right? Because you said this earlier. Oh, you said something really like that triggered this thought in my mind. I've said for years is no eight-year-old wakes up and says, you know what? By the time I'm 16, I want to be an alcoholic or I want to be a drug addict. You know, that that's not that's not what we're that that's not, especially in our young um mind of those formative years, what we're attuned to. However, at some point, again, this goes back, I think, the universality of um addictions as we understand now, is that we're doing the things that we don't want to do. Like, give me, other than the um definition we just gave, give me a better working definition for addiction, right? I keep going back to it despite the negative consequences, despite what it's doing to me. Maybe we'll rope in some God attachment here too, despite what it does between the in the relationship between me and my creator.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Yeah. I'm I'm really glad that you mentioned that because I think a lot of Christians they'll would say, Well, you're going back to it. I mean, you're the one who's making this decision, and that's why you're that's why you can't get out of it because you're you're deciding not to continue it to stop, right? So what do so what do Christians get wrong then about addiction?

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Um the belief that is exclusively a willpower issue. And so I'm I'm not I'm not I'm not saying that that's not a component of it. So there is a piece of that where they do have will to not do it, um, at various times, um, because um, like I think as we kind of said, uh addiction evolved and only becomes more consuming, right? So um you in in in the recovery community, so frequently people talk about you can't white knuckle it. Like there's just not enough willpower uh for this. Um and if we go back to and incorporate um again, kind of the neurology behind it, we understand that there's something going on on a physical, again, um neurotransmitter level as well. And then I believe you and I would agree there's something going on on a spiritual level, yeah, too. So um willpower is a component of it, but I think that you said what does church get wrong? I think that that is the overemphasis of it as well. So many times I'll be like, man, like a dog to its vomit, just keep going back to it.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

It's like right, yeah.

Connection As A Protective Factor

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Oh, so again, that's the word of God. There is absolute truth there. So I'm not taking away from that, but that's not all it is. That's not all that's going on. It's never only one thing. Because combination more addicts than not get to the place sooner, honestly, than than you would imagine, of quoting paraphrasing the apostle Paul of like wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of sin. Right. It's not it's not a at that point, it's not a willpower issue of like, oh, we'll just we'll just stop doing it, right? Like we we uh it had best of intentions, but we debunked the 1980s, you know, just don't do drugs, just say no, right? Like that's not true. Yeah, yeah, classical conditioning behaviorist mindset. Again, God bless them. We were doing our best with what we knew at the time, but we can all agree radically insufficient, right? So um there are large from what I've seen, there are large components of shame. Um, and maybe we'll tie this back into the attachment piece as well. Large components of shame that perpetuate what's going on, because we talk about the plain pain-pleasure teeter totter, right? Well, from a psychological pain standpoint, there's not much that trumps shame. Yeah. And especially enduring, entrenched shame. All right. So if I didn't have it before, so if it wasn't the initial trigger or activation of this addiction cycle that the individual's gotten on, shame enters pretty quickly. Right, because they realize that this is something out of my capacity. Look what I'm doing to myself. I recognize all the relationships that are, you know, cast aside, the um inability to be the person that uh the ideal person that I thought I would, you know, that eight-year-old that never thought they would be addicted. Um, and so shame is either part of the maybe like a fire. It's either part of the initial spark that ignites this, or at the very least, it is the gasoline that's constantly poured on this raging fire of addiction that just continues to burn and consume.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

So it's such a hard place to be. I can't even imagine. I mean, you work with with a lot of them, and I just feel I mean it feels hopeless at times. I yeah, I'm sure that they feel that way as well. Like I'm Sam, I've been trying my best, I've been doing all I can, and I still keep going back to this, going to back to your point of, you know, I I do what I don't want to do. And um yeah, so how how do you help someone break through that? So we kind of know a little bit about what are the factors that can lead to that. Um, what does the journey look like for them? I mean, it there's no timeline, like by this time you'll be out of this addiction. Yeah, is it an ongoing thing? Is it one of those things where um this is the thorn in the side, as as is often stated? Or is there a light at the end of the tunnel for them? How do you present that to people who are currently struggling?

SPEAKER_01 28:58

I don't, I don't that's that's the weakest answer you can get. Well, so I'm not a smart guy and I haven't been around the longest. He's one of the smartest guys I know.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

One of the smartest guys I know.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Um but I've been around long enough to know that everyone's journey is going to look very, very different because there's not one singular treatment modality that we say just apply this to those addicts and that'll cure them. Right. So we again before we start, we talked about um the 12-step recovery, various forms of that. Um, from AA to NA, celebrate recovery is a great one. Um, there's a there's a few up and coming ones actually uh within the churches as well. Um and that's that's very, very helpful for a lot of people. And in and around be oversimplified, in and around that community, um, they identify themselves as addict, you know. Hi, they can they're in a group. Hi, I'm Lewis, I'm an addict or I'm an alcoholic, you know what I mean. And so that is an enduring part, that maybe that thorn to the side sort of thing. That's this enduring um part of them that they're going to have to contend with for the rest of their life. There are a number of people I've worked with um that met all criteria for substance use disorder addictions. Um, and that was a season of their life. And they they would probably tell you, yeah, I understand. I'm I'm probably prone to you know to slip back into that, but they wouldn't they would no longer identify that. There wouldn't be an enduring thorn in their flesh. They would say, Yeah, at this point in my life, under these circumstances, alcohol had its, you know, its hooks in me. But now, you know, I haven't had a drink or haven't even thought about being an alcoholic for years. You know what I mean? Um, and I kind of those two, and there's a number of other um places that an individual can fall on that spectrum to say that that individual's um call it relationship with addiction is unique to them. Um, what recovery looks like oftentimes is unique to them, and then enduring and how it is informing um, yeah, I'll say informing uh their identity, how they see themselves is going to be unique to them.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Yeah, that's good. And do they they themselves describe that as they make progress in their recovery? Or is it something that is taught to them from the groups that they attend or from the counselors?

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah. Um, I I both, right? I think um if someone going back to community, if someone finds a really good community in 12-step, like we'll just go classic AA, then I think that they there's a higher probability they'll embrace that um overall mentality. You know, I'm you know, I'm Lewis, I'm an alcoholic, you know, I'm you know, I've been clean for five years, kind of thing. Um whereas someone who maybe encounters an another treatment plan, excuse me, uh another engagement with treatment that doesn't have that enduring you know, label or association with it, uh, I would think that they might be less inclined to do that. But again, it really is what resonates with that person, probably in their deepest hour of need. Okay. That's gonna be um, yeah, what what kind of um direction uh they take with that kind of mindset. I don't want to use too overly general terminology, but I think in general, um, the mindset that they kind of adapt as it pertains to their journey with addiction, any enduring um capabilities it has on their life.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. I like how you framed it also that they have a relationship with it and it looks different as they continue to make progress towards recovery. Um, you know, there's earlier you mentioned that there's a lot of shame attached to um addictions. And what we know about shame is that it forces people to hide themselves, forces us to hide ourselves. And when it comes to addiction, most people, or maybe you can help me uh clear out the numbers on this, but it seems like some people never knew that it was an addiction, like people around this person don't know it was either hidden or it's apparent, and then they just never were never able to get help. Um, but what is the messaging that the addict has about themselves that they don't why they don't want to share with other people? Like, okay, I can't share with this because I'm a leader in the community, or I can't share this with anyone because um what would they say about me? And things like that. So, yeah, what's the narrative or what's the shaming language that addicts have about themselves when they're wanting to get rid of this addiction and they feel like they can't?

What Christians Misread About Addiction

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Is it like I'm just bad or I'm I'm uh you know, so the most common one, and um, I use this oftentimes in clinical practices there's something wrong with me. And it's a generic enough that it's widely applicable to the individual. Um it's also direct enough that it applies to the majority of people. I use I use a big whiteboard in my office, and when that goes on the whiteboard, that that's it, man. It's like, yep, yeah, there's something wrong with me. I believe that you believe that. Yeah. And so if I not only believe that, I live my life day in and day out, moment by moment, in that reality, then of course I want to hide and cover that up as much as I can from any possible exposure to any other human being alive, right? And get back to God attachment, and certainly from my creator.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

And certainly I need to um, well, it kind of goes down two paths, right? The uh the the avoidant or the um um or anxious, yeah, anxious avoidant. Um, and you can you can probably tell me better than I can how that would manifest itself in a person's relationship with God, and then how that would be incredibly detrimental to relationships, especially if their person grew up in the church.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Yeah. Um, I immediately think about the garden, right? When um when Adam and Eve sinned, the first thing that they do is they go and hide. And they knew that God knows, and God did know, and he even calls out to them, and then they start obviously blaming each other and um and go through that whole process. And I just kind of bring that to the present where when you bring something like that to God, you think, based on your experiences in the church or by your parents, how they responded when you did something that was negative. So if you did something bad when you were a child, and instead of your parents listening, wanting to understand, they pushed you away or they just punished you and never reconciled. Yeah, the belief is that God's gonna treat me the same way because he gave me parents who they're supposed to love me and they do love me, but they push me away when I did something bad. Yeah. So if I share this with them, they're gonna push me away again. And we take on that same mentality to other relationships. If I share this deep dark secret that I have, they're gonna push me away. Yeah, and I don't want that. So it's better to just hide it as much as I can for as long as I can, and we'll just see what happens. But my hope is that eventually I'll get rid of this. Like I can't have this in my life anymore. Um, so it does play a huge role in not just relationship with God, because we know that God knows, and there's maybe even more of a chance that he'll forgive me. But when it comes to our experiences with people, um, we hide a lot more in those relationships because they don't respond like God would.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Oh, we absolutely do. You wanna you want to hot take real quick? So hopefully get the comments on the podcast. Yeah, direct all of your ire towards me. This is not exactly um, we are so unknowledgeable of who God is in the current American church that so much of what we understand in young people growing up in the church, what they understand of God is exclusively from those relationships rather than his word revealed to us that they don't have a framework for how could God forgive me? Because when I think of God, I think of dad, or I think of this person, or I think of that mean pastor because we are so this is not mine, so this is from another another um pastor who's much more stronger than I am. We are so biblically illiterate in the current American church, yeah, that it's given rise for that to happen. You know what I mean? I agree. So um, yeah, it's just me bashing the American church. I get complaints uh all the time, like, and you really hate the American church. I'm like, no, I love the bride of Christ, yeah, and I want us to rise up and be the bride of Christ. And we are so far from it in so many ways, but yet we keep calling ourselves his bride, and it's that makes me mad. Yeah, come on, we're we're we're certainly doing ourselves a disservice, and I would argue harming the name of the church um in our culture and worldwide, but more importantly than all that, we're dishonoring the bridegroom.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Yeah, absolutely. And I do, and I appreciate you sharing that because I I do believe that. I I do believe that um our lack of reading scripture, understanding God for who he is, the full picture. Yeah, because if you grew up in a church that highlights the wrathful, just God and didn't emphasize the compassionate, kind God, then they only you only have one side or one picture of who God is. And then you have another side where it's only kind, compassionate, gracious God, but not also the righteous, just, faithful God, right? And we need both. But if you're not reading scripture and you go to churches and they do tend to lean either one way or the other, unless they go through scripture all of it, yeah, and they share all of God's character, then again, you're gonna have a misinformed view of who God is. And the only example that we have of God are people who talk about God, right? That's how they model their behavior. So again, if it's your parents that have gone to church, but they weren't loving at home, your view of God is gonna be, oh, so it's not a loving feeling, it's only talk. Yeah, when he says, but don't really mean these things. Yeah, um he can't be trusted. Yeah, exactly. He can't be trusted. So I don't know what to feel. You you don't know what to feel when you don't trust someone. I just attachment style. Oh, anxious, right? Like I can't, I don't know. Should I trust you? Should I not? Like the song back and forth, right? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Then how would that how would that inform or influence the formation of addiction in uh adolescent and teenager's life if they grow up with that anxious attachment style?

SPEAKER_00 39:53

How would it inform them? Well, I need to find something that helps me feel secure.

Shame And The Urge To Hide

SPEAKER_01 40:01

It's a scary word out there, yeah. It's scary, yeah. And so even though I know that this is bad for me, I this still feels like it's in control. All all addiction starts off. All addiction, you overgeneralizing again. So oftentimes addiction starts off. Um we believe that we can control it. Yeah, right. What is um great pastors will say you grab on to it. Well, first I just touch it. I can just I can just touch this. I'll just touch this while you're you're holding it, because I can hold on to this. I I can let go anytime I want to. And before you know it, it's it's holding on to you.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

And it's it's leading you around. Bring that back to what we're talking about, is well, that's I believe that's what happens. Right. So we will stick with this um anxious attachment style. If everything in the world is uncertain and scary, right, especially in my relational context, um, then it makes sense, to me it makes sense that I should say it's not outlandish that a person would develop an addiction to something because as uh objectively horrible as it is, it's consistent. It does exactly what it says it's gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

How insidious.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Yeah, that's very true. Very true. I was thinking about this um phrase that I heard of how attachment kind of works. It's the it's the interaction of two nervous systems trying to find safety. Right. And when that's why that's why those relationships are so important because you are trying to stabilize each other through a healthy, um, loving, caring relationship, friendship, and so on. And when you don't have that, it's better to feel nothing. It's better to feel, I don't want to feel anxious. Yeah. So if anything eases that off. So big thing with medications, right? Uh, uh drugs, alcohol, sex, anything that can alleviate that, even if it's temporary, it just gives us some sense of hope that I'll feel it's one day.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

The numbing or amelioration of pain, even temporarily, it can be a relief, not can be, is oftentimes a powerful cocktail.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Right. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

It's true. Yeah. Um, we're talking a lot about addictions and relationships and so on. Is there is there something that we haven't talked about that you feel is necessary for the audience to to know about addictions? We know some of the sources of it, we know some protective factors, we know um what the process may look like going into and maybe out of it as well, um, and how it affects relationships. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you feel like, you know what, Sam? If if there's a takeaway for the audience, it's this.

Attachment To God And Church Confusion

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Yeah, I I I want to go to um I like maybe implications or application for the church. Yeah, is that yeah, that can be helpful? So um what can the church do? I've heard it said that it can spread the widest welcome at possible, and that's a scary uh that's scary for a lot of us. Church is like, hold on, wait, wait, wait. We're gonna welcome all these folks in. Again, I go back to whether you know it or not, they're already in your congregation, right? So might as well let's just be honest and upfront about it. And the church can get it back in the business of being a hospital. But around here, all of our hospitals have the antiquated uh church denominations or names for Junior Baptist and then you know St. Francis. Remember back in the day when churches did what they were supposed to do and they they provided health and care for the community? Um, so but to balance that out is you you spread as wide of a welcome as possible and you embrace this other this um growing part of um and recovery. treatment community literature is you also embrace radical honesty. So in an addicted mind, well yeah we'll try to stay on track here. So much of it is goes back into kind of like that fight or flight or that pleasure seeking area of the brain, what you know a secular scientist would call the the primitive part of the brain. Well if we're inviting these people in and saying we truly have what will what will help what ails you right or a true authentic relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, right? In the most pure and right and good form. That creates the space for radical honesty. And so what why do I bring that up? So in radical honesty why I believe this has taken so much traction is because what it does is it forces the addict brain into the prefrontal cortex. And so where it hasn't spent so much time there for so long as practically um attribute at that point. And so if we can create a space where people know that they can come and they're going to be seen and heard building blocks relationship. And they're not going to get pity because people despise pity addicts or anyone in general right especially no especially men we don't want we don't want pity right we want we want to be doing something we want to be part of this. So we've created that environment and we know it's not just going to be pity and you know just almost enabling in some sense but I'm going to be in the the the healthiest holiest way confronted with people that love and will endure with me in this and will invite and engage in a radically honest relationship with me so that I can get out of that primitive brain and get back to thinking and functioning and an executive functioning level that is has shown to have tremendous breakthrough in the addictions community. That's awesome. And so what can the church do church can be like Christ yeah right with the tax collectors and sinners but he didn't say oh no you're fine oh no it's all right you you had a you had a tough upbringing no he says go and sin no more confess your sins one to another what yeah I'll I'll be here I'll do exactly what I will I will bear with you I will sit here in this with you holy cow what you're probably hearing what I'm saying what are we doing? We're doing exactly what I'd argue the church was designed to do which was to foster um yes love but love in the correct form love that doesn't um not this kind of self-serving American style love that we have but love that is honest enough to say I love you too much to let you keep doing that I love you too much to not bring up the fact that you smell like booze again when you came in here today man. I mean I love you enough to say I I see these areas in your life and this lack of connection you're having are you looking at porn again man you know what I mean and so and and less of an accusatory you know horribly sinful person because welcome to the club we're all horrible sinful people right we might as well be honest about it. And then I believe what that and done well and done in an enduring fashion does is creates that community again which is the antithesis of addiction yeah right an enduring lasting christ centered God ordained community that can help break those shackles of addiction.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

That's great brother that's great. I'm glad we had this conversation this was a really good conversation yeah um guys share this episode with with people who are struggling with this I I think this is a conversation that that's needed. You know we talked early on in the episode like what do Christians get wrong and you did a great job explaining what that looks like and I think knowing the stuff that we discussed today is going to be helpful for those who are wanting to know how to minister to those who are in these cycles. And I love your emphasis on um we need to be the church. And being the church was meeting the needs of the community and representing Christ not just with words but also with with actions and um you know it's it's somewhat convicting for me because it's such hard work and it feels like you know is is that something that um it brings me out of my comfort zone because you feel like um you do that through our work it's very at least for me you know it feels like man I do this in my work and then now there's still so much need and it feels overwhelming sometimes. Yeah. And I think a good reminder for us I guess is that if we're all doing this as Christians, God's doing the heart change and God's using it and he's given us the strength to continue to do these things. So I think it's a fear. It's just the fear of not perspective. Certainly yeah and so on and so just getting over that.

How The Church Becomes A Hospital

SPEAKER_01 49:32

So hopefully this is of an encouragement and a you know a call out in a sense to good yeah let's let's call the church I'll call myself out i i don't do as much as I should um a passage we frequently quote in the Albie house is we are to be poured out like a drink offering are we pouring ourselves out right are we pouring ourselves out with the anticipation that he will refill us to then pour us out again we've got all of eternity to bask in his glory and enjoy the comfort and rest we are in a war now and we as men we should strap up and be prepared at any given time to stand firm in those battle lines because that's all he's asking us to do. Like he said he's not we it's not our job to change hearts we can't I can't crack someone's chest open split their head and rewire stuff thank god who knows what I would be capable of frankincide over here. We are called to endure and to bear with and to pour ourselves out. It's like are we are we doing that for our brothers and sisters who are who are already in our congregations with us whether we know it or not um and and all those that are not but are looking for a haven a haven for a place to be seen and heard and given the opportunity even if they don't take it but given the opportunity to engage in a healthy community which will bring life yeah amen brother yeah well can I hijack your podcast real quick uh sure we were talking about this before I told you I told you so um all of you listeners out there Sam has been telling me over the past couple years we've been talking about the podcast how listenership has gone up and um I'm encouraged by it. I know I've listened to and I'm I'm a fan right I'm a listener. And then my my family and friends as well so share the podcast obviously with others I would challenge you all write in and get Sam some questions. The access you have uh to this man here and the wealth of knowledge that he has and the connections he has with a number of other uh experts in and around the field is a wonderful tool. So bring your questions to him bring your requests to him I'm challenging him to have at least at least some at least maybe the end of a few shows have a QA period. I'd love to see an entire show devoted to QA because the outpouring is so much um from your listeners uh reaching out to you and engaging in real meaningful ways with you uh because I know the content's fantastic and it always stirs conversations and thoughts of mine. So I'm putting the challenge out there to the listeners to make the most out of the resource they have in Dr.

Share The Show And Send Questions

SPEAKER_00 52:11

Sam Landa here. I appreciate that brother and also to brag on my friend Lewis here um he I mean he basically presented that idea is that yeah why don't you just do like one full episode on a question that someone has and that way you're answering the questions from you guys as listeners because of what you're interested in and you want to know more about it. And I'm like yeah that's that's good. And just so you guys so I can be um uh share with you guys um I got one um uh not an email I've had several emails and I try to just respond through email but this one was through it's called like the the main host um site and I can't reply there so I said well how do I respond to this guy and I said well what do you think and he said make it a full episode or it could be a five minute QA answer like yeah here's a question from so and so from this place hey you asked about this here's my thoughts on it and blah blah blah and go from there but it's exciting because it's new and it's different and I I want to connect with you guys so um thank you for encouraging that and also um me wanting to encourage you guys send in questions you know you get to give feedback on the uh reviews and sometimes you get emails from you guys so that's great and um if you can send that you can there's a link when you go to the Apple Podcast you can go to Spotify just leave comments and uh all like those episodes or just short QA sessions so we're gonna have episodes we're gonna have a lot of so I appreciate that and um thank you for listening again um I hope you enjoyed enjoyed this conversation with me and Lewis and uh share with your friends and uh I look forward to next time