Jason Vale's Podcast
Jason Vale's Podcast
Getting the Juice With: Ching-He Huang
In this latest episode, Jason catches up with an Emmy nominated TV chef, no less! She's also an MBE and best-selling author who has been at the cutting edge of Chinese inspired cuisine for over a decade - it's Ching He-Huang!
With eleven TV shows and ten cookbooks under her belt, Ching certainly knows her stuff and is a huge ambassador for promoting the health and nutritional benefits of Chinese cuisine and a plant-based diet
If you're looking for an inspiring, straight-talking podcast with a healthy dose of humour - then this could be for you.
Happy listening!
It's the Jason Vale podcast, everybody. Thank you very much. Listen wherever you are, what are doing right now? Always interested to know what people are doing when they're listening to a podcast. Some people of course are in the gym, having a bit of a run. Some people are lying on the beach, the lucky ones aren't they lying on the beach, listening to a podcast. If that's you I'm slightly envious, but hello, and welcome to the podcast. Some people are cooking up a storm in the kitchen. Some people have got it on in the background while they cook, maybe cooking for the kids. Which brings us on beautifully as a nice segue, if you are, and you want some new ideas in the kitchen, or you're just looking to get out of a potentially a health slump or a bad health slump, and you need something to inspire you into fresh, clean cooking with unbelievable tastes and flavours that will leave you satisfied and actually wanting to cook more and more. The good news is I have somebody very special today on our podcast. Very rarely do I get any chefs, let alone somebody as good...'good' is the understatement, as this guest. My name is she's an international Emmy nominated TV chef, a cookery author. She's become an ambassador of Chinese cooking around the world. And I actually saw this wonderful lady cooking a storm on Sunday Brunch with me ol' mucker, Simon Rimmer. I got in contact with her on Twitter and she just went, oh, I've got one of your books! Which was wonderful as well. Complimentary! I am talking about Ching-He Wang, everybody! Big round of applause! Come on! Lets... thank you very much, indeed. Ching, obviously you're well known as Ching. I'll just call you Ching.
Ching-He Huang:Hello, Jason! Yeah, just call me Ching.
Jason Vale:Okay. I just call you Chang. We'll listen. Well... welcome to the podcast. I really genuinely appreciate you being on and about to share some of your wisdom, cooking wisdom, I think I will call it. A bit of background. You can just tell me a couple of things here. I was reading up a lot of the things that I've got in front of me are from our friend, Google, as always.
Ching-He Huang:Okay. So...well exactly! Mr. Google could be, could be wrong of course, but let's start with the U S. So, you're... where are you from? It start's for your stor... For those that genuinely have been on... under a rock and don't know of you for whatever reason, where did you start? Clean, eating, Asian, cooking, all this kind of stuff. What inspired you? W... you know where are you from? Did you get your first break in America? Wh...where we at? Well, I started cooking, well, gosh, about almost 20 years now. So, yeah, I just won't talk about my age! But I, I was born in Taiwan and we emigrated to South Africa. And then as a family, we emigrated to the UK and I learned how to cook from my mother, who's, you know, busy mum at that time. And cutting a long story short, I found myself in television. I had a food business at that time. It was called 'Fuji' and it was preparing fresh, ready-to-eat foods. Coming fresh out of uni, I didn't know what to do. I had an economics degree and all my friends were going to become accountants and bankers in the city. And I didn't really fancy that. And at that time, you know, lots of different things. My parents were in a bad way in terms of their financial debts because they'd lost lots of money when they emigrated to the UK at that time and lost everything, and so tried to make a living, you know, is really, really difficult, really stressful. So cutting a long story short, it was an amalgamation of everything. I was, you know, at a crossroads, I didn't know what I wanted to do. We were broke as a family and about to lose our house and, you know, food was all I knew. I mean, I grew up on my grandmother's farm in Taiwan, you know, seeing her cook on her great stove. You know, both my grandparents are farmers: a rice farmer on one side and a bamboo farmer and orange tree on my maternal grandparents side. And so it was really strange at that time. I just, you know, wanted to go into food, but I didn't know how, I didn't know what to do. But coming back from uni one day, saw a lovely, shiny sandwich shop and it was Pret[a Manger] had opened up and they were selling noodle salads. Just some threads of noodles, a few bean sprouts, and some sesame seeds, and a packet of soy sauce. And they were going for 2.99. I bought it, and 2.99 to me, you know, in 1999, around that time, was really expensive. I went back to my university and ate this noodle salad. And I thought, gosh, no, this is terrible. We could do better than that. And I was quite, I think I was quite arrogant to think that I could do better than that. But, you know, I thought, well, the noodle salads we have in... in Taiwan where I'm from and across Asia, it's so delicious. You'd have like sesame peanut sachet, you'd have chilli soy, you know, you'd have different flavours and you'd also have different toppings. Hence I started my little food business and it was a catering business to start and, uh, you know, doing sandwiches and jacket potatoes for this, literally in this industrial, sort of office-y complex.
Jason Vale:So delivering to the office. So one of those companies that if you worked in the office, you'd, you'd all get together, say, right, who wants what today? They'd put in the order. You'd come to the office building and you'd deliver them what they wanted.
Ching-He Huang:Yes.Exactly. And then a long story short, you know, I got together, you know, Hassock systems and, you know, little, which were just basically health and safety from the local council. And I cobbled together a small catering company
Jason Vale:As you do, as you do!
Ching-He Huang:Yeah. Yeah. And that then propelled me into different areas and just by chance, that I met my now husband at that time. His sister was working for UK Food and I would help her. Maybe she could do some PR for me, and I had no idea what PR was. And so we decided to help each other out. And she introduced me to a lovely commissioner at UK Food. And from there on, I brought like a little picnic of things, you know, noodle salads and healthy, fresh bites and little bits of dim sum. And he really enjoyed it. And he said, oh, I'd love all of this. And you must come on our flagship show and you must cook on the show. And I thought, oh God, where is this leading? So I got calls and I did an audition, and they really loved it. And I made a noodle salad that day. Um, and then they asked me to come back to do a live taping. And I honestly didn't know where this was going, but I even remember they said on the day, could you cook something vegetarian and something Asian, you know, something Chinese? And I thought, yeah, sure, okay! Um, I even remember to this day I cooked a Buddha vegetable stir fry with odd bits and ends that you'd be able to find in your fridge. It went really well. And so they kept saying, oh come back! And come back!
Jason Vale:And which channel was this on, where was this? Was this in the UK? It was on UK Food. Yeah. Yeah.
Ching-He Huang:Yeah, it was hosted by Jenny Barnett. That's where I met Simon because, you know, he was like the superstar chef. Um he still is, you know, together with that group, even Paul Hollywood would come
Jason Vale:Wow, they were all there! Okay. Of course they were, yeah!
Ching-He Huang:It was a real sort of foodie, chef-y sort of show. And I thought to myself many times, you know, I was called back again and again, I thought, what am I doing here? I'm not really a chef. I mean, I have a food business, but I'm not really a TV chef. But I really enjoyed it. And I... and my parents being Tiger Asian parents, they were like, what are you doing on that show? I mean, you concentrate on the business. Well, how much are they paying you on TV? But all I remember was this; is that I really enjoyed cooking and sharing my food with the audience. I had messages at that time, you know.
Jason Vale:Because there was no social media, obviously, at the time. No, no, no. So you couldn't interact directly. Yeah. You had to rely on them, either writing in, or ... sending a card.
Ching-He Huang:It's true. And I think they had a forum on Great Food Life and UK Food. And there were a lot of positive comments and the producer said, please come back. We'd love you to cook. And I realised at that point, as I was doing it, I didn't really question it; I thought, well actually, you know, I far enjoy this. This is really creative and I'm really sharing how to make healthy, delicious food. It's much more satisfying on a soul level than trying to create food to a certain budget for food producers who didn't really understand food. They were just always looking and always saying, oh, okay. We love that salad that you've just come up with. Cause they're always asking for new products and new tastes and new flavours, but then they couldn't afford it. And they always said, well, could you do it for 1.45? And my budget was always 1.45. Yeah. It got to a point then from one show, I got a mini show on UK Food um, called Ching's Kitchen. And then from there on, I had a book offer, so my first book, 'China Modern'. And for two years, I was sort of dipping in my toes in TV cooking and writing my book and also running my food business. And it was really difficult. It was a lot of long hours, as you know, in your business too. It was, you know, you're juggling a lot.
Jason Vale:Well, it's what people don't see, Ching. Is the stuff... it's one of the... My mum always taught me it takes on average 10 years to be an overnight success. You know, there is no such thing as an overnight success. Particularly well-known chefs that like Gordon Ramsey or whatever else that are tenacious workers, cause they have to be, um, that they start businesses and everything else. And inevitably most wants to start their own restaurant because that's where the passion is. They want to, you know, or create something or wri... You know, like you said, you had to balance, write books, do this. Do... So for two years, I'm not surprised, it was really, really difficult. And you did 'China Modern'. That was your first one. And how did that, how did that godown?
Ching-He Huang:It went down really well, and thankfully, I was really surprised. And I, it was that... on that journey when I realised that actually this is what I really want to do, because all of a sudden I was, through food, I was going back to my roots and thinking about what my grandmother would cook for me and recipes from my family and my culture. And I realised, I didn't really know that much about it because we left when I was very young and there was part of my identity that was missing, really. And I felt it was very therapeutic going back and revisiting and learning and relearning. Because when I was growing up and my parents were going through tough times, all I wanted to do was to be blonde-haired, blue-eyed, fit in with the crowd, you know, explore, chase boys. And you know, and I had to cut my teeth, as you quite said, you know, about, um, Gordon Ramsey and... and the other chefs, I had to cut my teeth, cooking for my dad at home because he was a terrible cook growing up. Whereas my mum, you know, would go out to work. Um, and she had to go back to Taiwan and work a lot. And um, and my dad was tasked with looking after myself and my brother, but cooking was the one thing that he was really bad at. So... sorry, dad. So then my mum would teach me how to cook, you know, simple, basic recipes. And so from 11 'til 15, 16, that's what I was doing when my pa..., when my friends were going out on a Friday or a Saturday night.
Jason Vale:That's what people... that's what appeals to people at the moment. I think, like I said, simple, easy meals, rustle them up. I mean, one of your books, uh, 'Ching's Chinese Food in a Minute', now that appeals to me! Now, that is my kind of book!
Ching-He Huang:So yeah. So then I found myself, um, you know, in... on this food journey. So first it was revisiting my roots, the 'China Modern' and thinking how to create things, you know, differently and exciting. And then it was Chinese Food in Minutes' that followed a show on Channel 5. And then, I mean, that was a lot of fun. We shot that in the depths of winter. It was the coldest winter ever. Half of it was shot in Chinatown in London and people thought I was selling food.
Jason Vale:Oh, cause you coo.., oh, you actually, you did the show outside? You were doing outside?
Ching-He Huang:We did it outside. Half outside and half indoors. But it was a lot of fun and it just shows you that Chinese food, it is possible to create something healthy and fresh from scratch. And, as you know, being in healthy food business, it's, you know, fresh is best. And I learnt lots of different tricks and you know, I, I had to, you know, test and retry recipes just to get them right. And think, well, what would people have? You know, a few store cup ingredients, so a few spices, a few condiments, um, and then you could create really delicious tasting food. I mean, most of it, you know, um, most chefs will tell you that it's really 60% is, you know, all about the freshness of the ingredients and then possibly 30% skill, you know, which you can just learn that anywhere. You
Jason Vale:mean, there's hope for me. Ching? Do you think? Is there hope for everybody else? Cause you're a big believer as well...I think you're a big believer, as I am, in food is thy medicine, Hippocrates-kind-of-thing, you know, 'let food be thy medicine'. So it's not only tastes wonderful. It's not only quick and easy to make fresh ingredients, but actually, it plays a huge part when it comes to health
Ching-He Huang:Absolutely. I'm... I'm so there. So when I started out in this, I thought, well, what do I really believe in? What's my message? Apart from the fact that I'm just a Chinese chef or a Chinese cook. And I wasn't really a proper chef, you know, more Chinese cook, home cook. And as I followed this food journey, and it's amazing how, when you just let things flow, I think, you just follow the path naturally and unveil certain things and lessons that I've learned. For instance, you know, I was writing it, you know, or Chinese cuisine and it's thousands year's old. And that philosophy is about balancing yin and yang. And it's about that food is medicine. And I was taught that from a young age, from my grandmother. You know, when I had nose bleeds, she would give me cucumber juice. It was because of the chi. The energy. It's too yang, it's too fiery. So you need to have more cooling foods like vegetables or raw fruits. And although some fruits had yang energy like lychees, so we don't go there. But it was this sort of intuitive way of eating. And, and so I started thinking, well, what's my message? And I really do want to go down this road of teaching people, you can eat healthily, fresh, and simply. But then I didn't know, so literally, cutting a long story short, you know, show after show, exploring China with Ken Hom and, you know, doing, working in America, I had a few shows there, called 'Restaurant Redemption' - helping restaurants get on their feet. A bit like Gordon Ramsey's
Jason Vale:Oh I see!When they were struggling and then he'd go in. But I, I imagine yours was a less shouty affair?
Ching-He Huang:Oh, it was definitely less shouty! But yes, but I, um, but my record, I have to say, safe
to say:7 out of those 10 restaurants in each season, actually they're still open! Yeah. Unlike Gordon Ramsey's restaurant makeovers!
Jason Vale:No,I think his ratio is... he's not really... he doesn't mention it! And I don't blame him for not mentioning it! But yeah, it's not really 7 out of 10 that remained open. That's for sure. With some of the challenges. But that's a really... because you've never owned your own... have you owned your own restaurant? I could be wrong I don't know
Ching-He Huang:No. And that's the crazy thing, that I... that is so contradictory and really what I do is that I help a lot of restaurants and I do consult and I share them my recipes. And if they need help, I'm there, but I've never owned a restaurant. I had a food factory if you like, kitchen, but yeah, never had a restaurant.
Jason Vale:Well it's funny, cause I had a chain of juice bars, but I, I didn't have them. In other words, I didn't own any of the juice bars. They were all franchise. And somebody said, well, you obviously have... you obviously had your own one to start with? I went, no, I didn't. Never had a juice bar! And they just assumed I had a juice bar. I had no, I didn't, but I knew how to run one! I mean, just because you don't own one, if you've got a passion for a particular subject, as you do, particularly with food, then you can see what would work, what wouldn't. You know, when you first went into Pret and you saw - hang... actually that could be done better. Actually, that's taking the Mickey out of people. There's a way that we can add this, do that. And that's an intuitiveness that I honestly think you can't go to college for. Genuinely. I just don't think you can. You've either got it, or you haven't.
In terms of:if it's your passion and you love it and you believe in it, then your brain will find the answers along the way. Oh, if we could... if we did that, we did that, we did that. And that's why seven out of 10, great ratio, of those restaurants are still open, which is great. Just talking about food is thy medicine, obviously, which plays a huge part in Chinese culture. It doesn't so much in the Western world and you can see the difference in disease, and premature death, as harsh as that is. You know, there's a monumental difference when you eat clean. There's no question. I mean, people can argue about this as much as they want, but the evidence is clearly there. The body can deal with just about anything, small amounts, but actually what you do most of the time is fundamentally important. And we need the fresh... We need fresh food. We need the live food going into our body as much as we can. And I know that one of your books, 'Eat Clean: Wok Yourself to Health', which is quite a good.'Wok Yourself to Health'. That's all about that, presumably? Isn't it?
Ching-He Huang:So, um, you know, you hit so many notes there for me, that just resonate with me, because by the time "Eat Clean' came, I was really quite stressed out. Cause I had done four shows in America and my own health began to suffer, as well. And you know, I started getting allergies like hives, and I thought this is strange because I'd never had any of these allergies before. And it was one moment when we were taping - this was 'Easy Chinese' show, I ate a prawn. And on-camera, the producer said, Ching! We need to cut. I was like, why? He was like, your nose is swelling up. I kid you not. On camera. I was like, oh my God! And then suddenly I looked down and my whole body was full of hives. And this was the last taping of the day. And everyone was so exhausted, but they had to ply me with Benadryl to get it down. And the makeup artist, like, I don't know, there's nothing you can do, because your face is fully red! But it was, I mean, I laugh now, but it was really serious because my heart was racing and it never, ever happened to me before. And it's quite a scary experience! And then as the years went on, that allergy became worse. And so by the time it was 2014, I realised that actually, hold on, something's not right here. And even though I was...I would eat healthy, it was what was getting into the food that maybe it wasn't organic and, um, you know, my body was exhausted. And it was inflamed and I was stressed. So it was a whole factor of things. You know, I was overworked and I, myself, my body was out of balance. At that time I started to, uh, I had a book by Dr Junger, you know, it was all about detoxing. I had your juicing book. Uh, there's all, I think all around that same time. And I thought to myself, right, I'm going to clean my diet up and I'm going to cut out things that I think are inflammatory. And so it was self-experimentation and after sort of three months of cutting things out of eating clean, just whole foods, nothing processed. And when at that time, when the book came out and it was about eat clean, I think after that, it got a bit of a backlash, the whole 'Eat Clean' movement, because I think people thought that literally it was cutting out certain food groups, but it was for me, my message of eating clean was that trying to find organic, pure whole foods.
Jason Vale:Ching, do you know what? That really annoys, cause I saw the whole eat clean backlash, obviously as soon as somebody becomes popular, I mean, I've had a juicing backlash for 20 years. I mean, that's just how it is. And I always say my point on this is very clear. I make no apologies for it. I make no apologies when I talk about eating clean, I make no apologies for anything else because we're in a tippy-toe world that we're in and there's a health crisis. There's no question. There's a health crisis. That's been played out in particular during this COVID time, and who it ultimately affects compared to other people and so on. And you just go, well, why is it okay to talk about eating junk and why is that OK? Okay. No one, no one attacks you for doing that. Going I had 2 burgers last night, I had 25 pints of lager, I had this, and that's okay. So the 'Eat dirty', if there is such a thing, movement. So, so instead of eat clean, which I've never heard of'Eat Dirty', I've just made that up, but imagine, right. So 'Eat Dirty' campaign, right? Whatever it is - that never gets a backlash, ever!, No. No one says anything about that, but the very second you say 'Eat Clean', which is extraordinary because every single wild animal on earth, that's all they eat. They don't eat anything else. They don't go, oh, come on, you've got to live, have some Pringles. I've never heard a squirrel say that! It doesn't happen. And yet we're in this world where we get attacked by saying humans should have what they... can you imagine Kuala bears all getting together on a Kuala bear, you know, version of Twitter. And then somebody puts out a picture of something other than, you know, eucalyptus leaves. Do you know what I mean? And all of a sudden they start saying, you can't do that! What are you doing? Is... you've got to live a little. I mean, it doesn't... I d... that's one of the things that baffles me. So I think there's nothing wrong.'Eat Clean' movement did get a backlash, but like you said, there's versions of each. There's versions of vegetarianism. There's versions of, of all of these movements and all of them have a healthy version. All of them have a healthy version. And if you do the healthy version, then you're good to go. But like you said, inflammation, sorry, but you said about inflammation, which I wanted to pick up on because most 'dis-ease', lifestyle disease where your body's at dis-ease with itself is caused by inflammation. And so, if you only consume anti-inflammatory foods, i.e. fruits, vegetables. So then, then the inflammation goes down. I think you said it not only happened in your case, but Jamie, your husband, like me, he had asthma. What was his asthma story? Cause, you know, cause he just changed his diet and I think he's asthma improved or when, or what's the story there?
Ching-He Huang:Yeah. So, from the moment of'Eat Clean' to now 'Asian Green', in between, I'll just quickly go back a little. Yeah. But it's true that'eating dirty' i... no one talks about it and it's okay. But whereas when we talk about eating healthier, then there's lots of mixed messages. And so anyway, I just find that bit just really interesting and actually from'Eat Clean' to now, 'Asian Green', it's been a few years. And during those few years, I myself have been going through a learning journey. Because since then Jamie, my husband decided from going from a meat eater, from being vegetarian, to being completely plant-based vegan, has just been extraordinary on his health because he's also always suffered from asthma, literally from when he was two years old, the doctors diagnosed that he's got allergies and that, you know, he can't breathe properly. And so, um, you know, they've always had to be very, very careful with him. And since going vegan his asthma within one month, you know, his sinuses, he would have huge blocked, you know, sinuses in the morning and he couldn't breathe. Or his, his eczema and psoriasis...
Jason Vale:He had psoriasis and eczema as well. So did I. So we... we're very similar me and him.
Ching-He Huang:Very similar. And, um, within a month of that, that all reduced and naturally calmed down and within three months, he didn't need his inhaler. It was really, it was really transforming and shocking for me because I was like, are you sure? You're gonna exercise. You're gonna go out for a run now. You're not going to take your inhaler? He goes, yeah, I don't need it anymore! And then the more that we realised that actually it was him going plant-based that he completely doesn't need his inhaler, um, or preventative.
Jason Vale:Well because the inflammation's not there. It seems patently obvious. Now the, the, of course, anybody listening here that might think, um, this is irresponsible of me to say that asthma could be cured. Uh, cause that's how people are, they're a bit odd sometimes. You can, uh, they'd like negativity rather than positivity. Um, uh, again, if you know my work, if you know me, then you will know, especially if you've seen the film,'Super Juice Me!', I'm a huge advocate in both. There's a happy medium. So is there any need for short-term and long-term medical intervention? Absolutely. And is there a time when we can look at other ways and alternatives to potentially see if the body is in the position to heal? Not in every case, I was lucky. Your husband was lucky. In other words, it's like, Hey Jason, there's Nature. Nature, there's Jason. I hope you get on. We got on like fire. Jamie, there's Nature. Nature, there's Jamie. I hope you guys get on. And they did. And for me it was one month and I didn't have to use my inhaler. I did still keep it on me. And I would always say, first do no harm was the number one doctorate. The, you know, as a doctorate, that was the
oath:first do no harm. And I would say, first of all, the pharmaceutical industry and whoever invented the asthma pump saved my life. Without that I'd be dead. And so would probably, uh, Jamie as well. So I'm far from knocking that at all, but what we're looking at, not one single medical practitioner asked me what I was eating or drinking. Not once!
Ching-He Huang:That's what he says. He's not anti-medicine, because as you say, you know, he's grateful for the times that he's had, like when he's broken his arm or he's had issues, including this asthma that he wouldn't have got this far without it. But whenever, you know, even just going and talking about his father who had Type II diabetes, and this was years ago when they were trying to diagnose it, you know, it was very, very moody mood swings and, um, uh, cranky. And they went to the GP and they tried to intervene with his health and, and they would ask the doctor and say, you know, is there anything you could do? Is it diet related? It, could it be, you know, something thats... And they're like, no, no. In the end his mum was like, no, I think he's definitely got some issue with his health and we need to get... and it was diabetes. They, they found out he had diabetes. He then had to try and reverse it through diet and he himself hasn't been that successful. It's just under control. But my mum had Type II diabetes and she's managed to completely reverse hers. So our own experience and through our own understanding, you know, in our family, is that, you know, disease can be reversed. So, you know, I, I suffer less from my allergies now because I am eating healthier and I realize, and it's a self-diagnosis, but I have an allergy to sulphites. So whenever I have, you know, wines. When I have frozen ice cream or something that, you know, has a lot of sulfites in, I think that's where the allergy comes from. So this is... it's very much a self-diagnosis but it's from listening to my own body and cutting out, you know, different things and then testing to see if I'd have a reaction. But I think food...I mean being a chef and being a cook. I didn't realise that actually, from talking that food is medicine, that it would actually reveal itself, that it is medicine in my husband'scase
Jason Vale:Well,There's another way to look at it. You could say that food is medicine, which it is. On the other side, you could say, if you look at the wild, wild animals to bring them back into play again, you could say because they're not having anything that, I mean, all of their food isn't medicine, cause they're not ill. Right. So, so, so in other words, it wasn't food that was medicine so much, it was food that was disease causing. So food was disease... the wrong kind of foods are disease causing, rather than these foods are medicine. Because actually all that happens, I believe, is that it just finds its natural equilibrium again, the way that it was always meant to be. So, yes, although it does appear to...
which it does:it helps to get rid of asthma, helps to get rid of this. It's more of the other things causing them rather than this getting rid of them. Does that make sense? Like once you've, once you've eliminated those things and you've had what the body primarily craves, not what the mind craves, that's a whole different ballgame. What the mind craves is... that's what we've all got to deal with. That's a whole different... it's... that's why it's easier said than done. And I suppose that's why in the wild, it's easy for them just to have what nature intended, because they don't have television or Uber eats or anything else. So it's a little bit, a little bit easier, but yeah, like in Jamie's case asthma went, right? So in your... Type II diabetes goes.'Super Juice Me!'. The film that I made illustrated that you remove the toxicity, replace the deficiency, the vast majority of lifestyle diseases, just be clear here to everybody: lifestyle diseases. And I don't know what baffles people, why it baffles people that if you...if a lifestyle disease is caused by your lifestyle, you change your lifestyle, why is it so shocking when it improves? Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm amazed that we're even having to talk about it. I mean, we think we're the most intelligent species on earth, the wild animals, like I said, just crack on with it. Um, cause that's all they do. And yet we... we've overcomplicated the issue. Over complicated. And like you said, when you start talking about this issue, as you did in many of your books, but 'Wok Yourself to Health' in particular, and 'Eat Clean', and then you get attacked for it. What kind of a species have we become, that you get attacked for encouraging people to eat well?
Ching-He Huang:Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. So the world is full of contradictions and there's duality in everything. I think with 'Asian Green', my whole point, I mean, I've learned my lesson from 'Eat Clean'. It was the worst selling book that I'd ever had! And I realised, yeah, I realised, but, and yet I was so proud of it because I was like, well, this is, if anything, this is the most important message in terms of. Feel that I've learned in terms of food and now even more so with 'Asian Greens', um, I'm not saying that everyone should overnight and would cure everything if they went completely on a
Jason Vale:no, no, no, of course not. And I'm not saying that either. For a nanosecond. All we're saying, I think, I'm speaking on your behalf, but I think we're just saying, look, get more of the good stuff in eat more plants. You've got a better chance of feeling better,
Ching-He Huang:Absolutely. And if there was a way that, you know, you could add more veggies in a much more interesting way, where you feel that actually this is really delicious and hits those notes if we're going to compare it to 40 eating or, you know,
Jason Vale:Well talking of which, as well, people want to get into genuine cooking, right? Fresh ingredients, as we've said. And for most people, the barrier, it is true. Most, it's either time or the thought that they can't cook. So therefore it's too complicated. They see chefs on television, cutting up fruits and vegetables in a nanosecond that with the knives and they look all very slick and everything else, and they think they're going to be there for hours. What would you say to that? What's the biggest tip you can give to anybody at the moment who's really has a lot of standup eating just with bread and sandwiches, and their health might be really down the other way. When they cook for themselves, it's just pastor and this, that, and the other. So where would you kick off? Where would you start? If you, was somebody from couch to kitchen? Or 'From Couch to Kitchen'. That'd be good. I like that title as well.'From Couch to Kitchen'. We've come up with 'dirty eating' and 'couch to kitchen'. What a great name for a book!
Ching-He Huang:Yeah. Great. Um, well I would say, literally, just, you know, think of three food groups, so your 'eat raw'. So 30%. So, um, for example, you know, three meals a day, if you're having two meals a day first meal, you know, think of one meal where it's all just raw. So, like you, you know, raw juice.
Jason Vale:My breakfast is always raw. No, it is! It's genuinely, it's always raw. Yeah, yeah.
Ching-He Huang:Or a really big salad for lunch. And it's got like 10 different like red onion, fresh ingredients, different leaves, greens, everything raw.
Jason Vale:Different colours, essentially.
Ching-He Huang:Different colours. And as many, many green veg in there as possible
Jason Vale:Yeah. Greens. Greens where it's at. Nothing on earth would exist without the colour green. It wouldn't, would it? The colour green is that important! If there was no green, there's no oxygen, there's no life. So that's, it's pretty, it's pretty important colour food.
Ching-He Huang:ChinesePhilosophy believes that raw foods are detoxifying. So it's good to have a portion where it's raw. Then lightly-cooked or steamed or stir-fried. That helps to break down the cellular... at a cellular level, the, you know, the vegetables that help you assimilate. So we call that nourishing food where it's steamed and lightly- cooked. And again, this is all, you know, pure foods, pure form. Of course you'd add oil and little bit of vinegar, which is essential in Chinese cooking. Maybe a little bit of rice wine. We tend to view rice wine as it kills, you know, any bacteria, anything that's not good for you, but a good fermented wine - a little bit is okay. And if you don't take wine, that's fine. You can just leave it out. And then a good quality light, dark soy sauce. Again, one that's not full of nasties or as pure as you can be. And it's a little bit difficult with sauces and pastes and things that we buy from the supermarket, but a little bit is enough.
Jason Vale:Yeah because if you look on the ingredients of something like hoisin sauce. I mean, I couldn't believe how much sugar was in there and stuff like that. You're like, oh my God. I didn't realise.
Ching-He Huang:Absolutely. But only... a little goes a long way. So, just a little bit of everything. Just to flavour food and lightly cooked. And then the third element is, you know, think about foods that I know we in the west label it as 'super food'. But actually all foods have this. So for example, you know, ginger is very yang. It's antifungal, antibacterial, every...
Jason Vale:Best anti-histamine on earth, natural anti-histamine, that's what I mean! Ginger shots, as in the drinking the juice from fresh ginger, uh, is what got rid of my severe hay fever, and helps with asthma and allergies. It is the number one go-to, especially mixed with apple. But anyway, yes. So...
Ching-He Huang:Yes, so exactly that. So ginger or goji berries, which are full of beta carotene, they're good for your eyes. Whatever other elements that you have, that you're finding, is to boost those ingredients in your cooking. So to approach it like that, you know, when you in a day, is that okay, I'm going to have my raw fruits or raw vegetable. I'm going to have my lightly-steamed, lightly-cooked vegetables, so it retains nutrients. And then the last element is whole grains, plus this element of what we call superfoods to give you the energy or the sustenance, but also a little boost in terms of what you need specifically targeted for your well-being, for your health. So whether it's, you know, oh my eyes are not so good. So I'm going to have a... of a handful of goji berries, or like you say, you know, I've got some allergies and ginger's really good for that. Or I feel like I've got a cold coming on and I've got a runny nose, and, you know, maybe you have some lemon. Or I'm not sleeping very well then maybe have some herbal tea. Sort of approaching it in these three steps. So it's really simple.
Jason Vale:I like it,yeah. I was going to say it's really simple, isn't it? Yeah. Like in terms of making that evening meal or whatever it is, and they're throwing something together because they might think it's a bit difficult as well. Like I said, so they, they, they know they need some super foods in there and some... but you're talking about just fresh ingredients, chopping them up. Are you talking about putting them into a wok, a little bit of oil, like you said, and what kind of grains would you have with it? Are you a noodle fan? Rice fan? Quinoa fan? All of the above?
Ching-He Huang:But of course in Asian cuisine you have a lot of starches like noodles and rice, but of course everything in balance. So they have some brown rice. Um, you can mix the grains. You know, we have brown rice mixed with mung beans, with a yellow beans. You can have lentils. I mean, you know, stir-fried all of them to make a mixed stir fry. Even with quinoa, as well is fine. That's sort of very purist, very healthy.
Jason Vale:I like the staples, rice and noodles. I'm a big fan of both of those. I'm a big fan of rice and noodles. In fact, the only cookbook that I've ever written was going to be called 'There's More to Life Than Quinoa'. Um, that was gonna... cause, cause I thought... cause at the time everybody was just going, guess what? I'm having quinoa for dinner. It's like, great, lovely, wonderful. There are other things out there! And it's like, they're almost showing off that they're having quinoa and not rice. It's like rice is good. There's nothing wrong with rice. So, you know, we were talking about that balance. Isn't it? Like you said. Plenty of veg. That's the key thing. Isn't it? Plenty of veg again. And these little kickers that you call these superfoods, as we're talking about the gingers of this world, the chilli's of this world, you know, these little kickers, the lemons, the something-a-little-bit-extra that the body just might require, and all different colour food's going in. Um, but anybody can do this, right?
Ching-He Huang:Anyone can do it! So like, for example, if I'm doing a stir fry, easiest way, just going to have garlic, ginger, chillies and spring onions,
Jason Vale:The big guns. I call them the 'Big Guns', by the way. They're the 'BigGuns'
Ching-He Huang:Yeah. We call... I call them the'AwesomeFoursome'
Jason Vale:Ah nice. They're the 'Big Guns', I do call them the 'Big Guns'. Every time. If Kate's cooking me something, that's going to be Asian, I go, are the 'Big Guns' going in? And she, and she knows, they're the 'Big Guns'. You've got to have the 'Big Guns' in. I agree. Yeah.
Ching-He Huang:Because Each... that's the easiest. I know people will say, oh God, you put it in every single dish! But it's true because you extract, you know, and it's just being greedy with as much in nutritional hits that you could put in, in one dish. So you're getting the best out of it. You know, you're getting the best out of every meal. I feel like we need to be greedy with the goodness from fresh foods. You know getting the fibre, getting all their nutrients in...
Jason Vale:So out of the nine books, okay, that you've, I mean, God, you've, you've been on everything. Saturday Kitchen, Food and Drink, Munch Bunch, Sunday Brunch, Lorraine! It just goes on. Let alone in America, all the series that you did. And like you said, even the one that I didn't even have here, when you were helping restaurants, which 7 out of 10 succeed, which is a great ratio! But the ...it just goes on and on and on. But in terms of books, I'm just starting out, and I'm thinking now I'm going to be biased already with your books. And I would already recommend 'Asian Green'. I know it's your latest. I understand all that, but I would, I would definitely want it from what I've seen through, I was just like, that's the one you, you can't flick the pages without just going, I'm about to get in the kitchen tonight. You can't! It's like, that's what's happening! Um, cause it's just beautiful! And so that would be where I would go if I was... if I'm new to you or just want to do something quick and easy or whatever the case is. What books, if you could pick top two, top three, that you would say, right, these are the ones you want to get off the couch, Couch to Kitchen! And so which 3, which top 2 or 3?
Ching-He Huang:I would say'Asian Green' for plant-based. And I would say 'Chinese Made Easy' if you're starting out in cooking. And then in the middle, I would say, I mean, 'Eat Clean' is yes, definitely up there as well.
Jason Vale:I think certainly people listening to this, there are a lot of people listening to this are juice advocates and, and clean eating and, you know, he...people that focus on their health. So, you know, it's okay to say, 'Eat Clean' book on here. Uh, 'Wok Yourself to Health' - it's fine. So 'Eat Clean', 'Wok Yourself to Health'.'Asian Green', just come out. Superb book that I've seen. I haven't seen the 'Wok Yourself to Health' yet, but I, I do intend to look. And then 'Chinese Food Made Easy'. Right? That's going to appeal to everybody. Easy.
Ching-He Huang:They want easy. And also that's a book more for entertaining. If you've got family and friends and different flexitarian eaters
Jason Vale:Listen to that! Flexitarian! No. Why... I've been on this planet for all this time? And why have I not heard of flexitarians?
Ching-He Huang:Yeah, it did dip in and out of, uh, well, they they're trying to be more plant-based, but they're on that journey and they're not quite there yet. So they do dip into, uh, you know, meat and
Jason Vale:yeah. Or a bit of fish or a bit of this. I suppose. I suppose I went from a vegan for seven years and I guess, I didn't know what I am now, but flexitarian is precisely what I am. I'm exactly a flexitarian. Yeah. I didn't have an expression for it before, I just used I'm more flexible, but I suppose that's what it is. It's a flexitarian. It's always good to be an'-an' of some kind, isn't it? You know, what are you? You know, people like a title don't they?
Ching-He Huang:With every diet there is a yin and a yang. So like with a plant-based eating diet, it can be very purist, very healthy, but it can also be unhealthy because there are a lot of processed plant based ingredients out there.
Jason Vale:Huge amounts, huge amounts
Ching-He Huang:You know, full of GMOs, genetically-modified ingredients. Um, that one
Jason Vale:Sugar, I mean, a lot of refined sugar. You've got to bear in mind, that's vegan! So, I mean, that's the thing, a lot of people, you know, people don't realise you can have a very healthy, vegetarian and a very unhealthy meat-eater, but you can flip-reverse that. I said that on one of my other podcasts that, you know, the problem with a lot of vegetarians is that they're not veggy-tarians. They are carb-arians, I call them. Because they haven't eaten a vegetable in years. Um, and, and also even if you are relatively purist and I say this on every podcast in case it's the only one they're listening to and they haven't heard the message before. I'm a big advocate now of this, is that look everybody's different. Your lifestyle is different. Everybody approaches it differently. There's no right or wrong. Everybody has their own way of dealing with their food nemeses, their food addictions or whatever it is.
What I would say is this:is that I became wheat-free, dairy-free, sugar-free, you know, whatever. For seven years, pure vegan, but it was a journey that I needed and everything else. And I enjoyed it. And the minute I didn't, the minute I felt it was hindering my life, for whatever reason, I stopped it. I became more flexible. And the reason for that is that because you don't want to spend your one and only life trying to extend your life, only to realise you missed your life in the process. But I'm a strong believer that if your only focus, every day, is to try and extend your life, that's it. It's like you're doing everything, but you're missing every party on earth. You're missing every day. You're you're. Uh, but yet you feel, you feel great everyday, but what have you. Well, I, you know, I ate some quinoa. Well, well done, you, but that's not going to... when you're sitting in your rocking chair, you're going to look back on life and go, you know, I'm really glad I ate nothing but quinoa.. You know, it's a bit... there's a b..., but there's a balance. And I think it's important, particularly if somebody is ill in any way that you might have to go through a journey of significant length of time where you actually can't afford to be a flexitarian. Well, actually you need. You know, you need a genuine reset when it comes to health. So your body has chance to heal. So I would just say to anybody listening out there that if you think that whether it's Ching or myself or any of my guests or this podcast in general advocates, that if you have anything that's slightly impure, that that it's going to make you ill - it's not, right? The point is majority. What do you do the majority of the time or, do you need to go on a health journey? And moreover, we're all human. And as humans, we enjoy food. It's more than just fuel. In fact, we're cooking tonight. Cause I thought we're doing a podcast today, so we are cooking from 'Asian Green' tonight, just so you know.
Ching-He Huang:Make the Waikiki bowl!
Jason Vale:Okay. I can go shopping today, the Waikiki bowl. Okay. I'm going to look at that. Okay. Waikiki bowl. Tomorrow I'll let you know what I thought of the Waikiki. I'm sure it's gonna be lovely. All of them are gonna be nice, aren't they? But Chinese cuisine and everything, it's just, everybody knows it's healthy. You feel light afterwards? You don't feel heavy. That's how it is. It's it's, it's always the case. So, I think intuitive eating as you've touched on a lot during this podcast, which is a valuable lesson people can learn. Intuitive, you know, instead of, you know, self-diagnosis. No one talking about disease, I'm talking about knowing which foods make you feel a bit weird. Um, and I think only... the only person that can know that it's you. Because it's different for everybody. Uh, pa... I eat pasta, I feel really bloated. I eat rice, I don't. Even if it's white rice. Some people do. Some people don't. So listen, I don't know. I don't know Jamie, but tell him, well done for changing his health and being plant-based and getting rid of his asthma, which is a phenomenal feat considering he had it from more or less from birth from two years of age. I mean, I didn't develop it 'til I was eight or nine and we'll end on this. But what are your aspirations? What's your ultimate dream in terms of when it comes to cooking or helping somebody who, who inspires you, who you think I'd love to do that? Or is it a chain of restaurants? Is it this? What more would be like the, the icing on the cake for you?
Ching-He Huang:I just want people to eat well and eat home-cooked dishes. I'm lost really!
Jason Vale:No. Do you know why you're lost? And there's a wonderful thing. I ask this to most of my guests, and it's funny because most of them end up being a bit lost on it, which is great because it means that they're already doing what they love, wherever this takes you. It doesn't because you're actually happy right now. That's the point. And that's the wonderful thing. You haven't got to always be goal-orientated. I'm opening a new retreat eventually. And if your diary permits, I'd love you to come along to the opening, but I just... listen, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. I mean, I've really enjoyed this cause it's been different to some of the podcasts that I, I normally do. But I think there's some wonderful messages in here. I think your husband's story is motivational and yours, obviously. You've come into the UK and then just making everything work, which is incredible and all your success in America. And I just think... I've got this feeling that all of it... it's one of those, er Ching will become as common as Jamie. Not your husband, but as soon as you talk about Jamie in the cooking world, everybody knows he doesn't need a surname. And that's why you're known as Ching. Cause you don't need a surname. Even Gordon really doesn't need a surname. It's one of them. Delia. She doesn't need a surname, but funnily enough, Gary Rhodes did. So we'll leave it there. So
Ching-He Huang:Jason, you... really thank you. I'm so honoured to be on your podcast and everything that you're doing for everybody, uh, is amazing. It's nothing more enlightening, more humbling. And a gift.
Jason Vale:Yeah, no, I completely agree. And when you turn your life around through the power of nature, which is what it is, it's a, it's a wonderful feeling. You feel better than before, really. Because you go, well, I know what, what can happen if I don't. So, 'Asian Green', everyone. Okay.'Eat Clean'.'Wok Yourself to Health', and of course,'Chinese Food Made Easy'. I'd like to thank my guest today. So much to go through, I mean that's why I think we're going to have to have a second podcast at some point. But because there's just too much, I mean, the length of time that you've got on a podcast, it's never enough. I found... I find this out with every guest that I have. It's just, just never quite enough. So yes, everybody, it is a Masterchef without question. Ching-He Huang, everybody! Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.