Access Louisville
The latest news on Louisville, Kentucky from the staff of Louisville Business First. We look at trending issues in the Derby City from a business perspective. Join us each week!
Access Louisville
The state of dining out in Louisville
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Many restaurants seem to live within four weeks of closing.
Lawrence Weeks, chef and co-owner of Murray's Creole Pub, brought up that chilling point during a live recording of the Access Louisville podcast earlier this week.
"If we do a month that's bad, it's hard to recover from that," he said on the show. That's why matters like food costs, the economy and consumer behavior are so important to the industry. Murray's Creole Pub is located in a 2,500-square-foot, two-story building at 1576 Bardstown Road in the Highlands. It offers a casual, pub‑style space on the first floor and a high‑end dining room upstairs.
Weeks was joined on the podcast by Noam Bilitzer, of NuLu Mediterranean restaurant MeeshMeesh, Anne Shadle, of Mayan Cafe, also located in NuLu, LBF Restaurant Reporter Michael Jones and LBF Managing Editor David Mann. The panel discussed the impact of the delayed Kentucky Oaks post time during Derby week, staffing difficulties and turnover, thin profit margins (average around 4%) and the importance of community support and collaboration among local restaurants.
The show was called "Access Louisville: The State of Dining out" and was recorded in front of an audience on April 21 at the Baird Conference Center at the 500W building.
Access Louisville, sponsored by Baird, is a weekly podcast from Louisville Business First. You can also follow it on popular podcast services including Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
It's going to be a very different derby season for Louisville in the restaurant scene, and we've got a group of people who know it all too well. Up next on the Access Louisville podcast. Thanks for joining us. My name is David Mann. Access Louisville is a weekly podcast from Louisville Business First. Normally we talk about the latest news and what's happening here in Louisville, Kentucky. This week we've got something a little different for you. We're going to talk about the local dining scene with some very special guests. Please welcome Ann Schadel from the Mayan Cafe. No Noam Billitzer of Meach Meach and Mill Iron 4. And Lawrence Weeks of Murray's Creole Pub. And of course, we couldn't do a restaurant show without our LBF restaurant reporter and show regular Michael L. Jones. And if you're listening to the recording of this, you might be out there like, who is cheering? Well, I wanted to let you know we have this awesome guest, uh awesome uh audience here with us on the 29th floor of the uh of 500 West Jefferson here in Baird's conference room. And uh say hi, gang, one more time, just so people know you're there. All right, so let's get into it. Here we are in April, and it's the Derby Festival season. Normally, this is the most important time of the year for the Louisville restaurant industry. Uh this year it's gonna be a little different. Uh in in addition to the normal challenges that every business is facing, like inflation and labor cost and stiff competition. Um, this year we've got a much later than normal post time for the Kentucky Oaks. Uh it's gonna be uh that race is gonna start around eight o'clock rather than six o'clock, meaning people leave the track later, meaning they get to restaurants much later. Um so we're gonna get into that a a little bit later, but just to start, I'm gonna take the temperature just on how things are right now. And and Ann, I'm gonna start with you. Just give me your thoughts on the Louisville restaurant scene. What's working, what isn't working, and then I'm gonna go to you guys next.
SPEAKER_07All right. What is working? I think, I mean, just in the first quarter of this year, we have had so many new places open, two of which are right next to me. Um so I think that there is this sort of sense of opportunity in the restaurant industry here. Um I've heard this for years that because we don't have major sports teams, like national sports teams in Louisville, that creates an opportunity for more independent restaurants to come up, that the rent is a little bit more accessible, that there's not the inundation of chains in the downtown area in the same way that it can be in some other cities. So I do think that that creates a space where people can have an idea and try and give it a go. On the other side of that, we've also seen, I would say, just as many closings in the first quarter of this year as we have of openings. So I think it I I've said this every year since 2020 that I'm like, I'm just waiting for all of the restaurants to close. Every year it feels like it gets harder to make the numbers work. It's already, you know, our average profit margin is four percent across the whole industry. And so I think it gets harder each year in these last six years. Each year has been harder than the pri than than the previous year. So it's um it's what makes us all just a little bit crazy that we still do it. Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_04Naomi, uh, what what what do you think? What what's what's working and and what isn't here in the uh the Louisville restaurant scene?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I think Ann and I have a little bit of a different experience. She's a veteran with Mayan, and I'm in my going on my third year now. Yeah. September will be three years for Me Shmish. Um and I think with Me Shmish, you know, we started uh every six months we're introducing something else into our business model, whether it's our catering program or um our patio or different dining opportunities. And so I think my opinion on my personal experience is a little different because we're constantly evolving and and changing what we're offering. Um but you know, it's it's scary times with tariffs, cost of goods going up a lot, um, cost of labor increasing, um, and just cost of living in general. So um I think I love Louisville and I moved here uh in 2020 or 2015, about you know, a little over 10 years ago. And I loved it because of, you know, I always wanted to open a restaurant, start a restaurant group ultimately, and the opportunity here is incredible. I came from Boston. Opening an independent restaurant in Boston, very difficult. Yeah, it's like a lot of tangible accessibility here, you know, to what Angela said. So I think I I love that, um, but it's it's a very tough business and very scary times for sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. All right, Lawrence, how about you? Bring us home.
SPEAKER_01Uh what I think is working is authenticity in the restaurant space. Um, that's been something that's always been um the landmark of restaurants is authenticity. Um, I think that when you come up from a cook or serve or bartender, whatever it might be, um, most people who come out of the industry and open their own restaurants, it's like a passion project. Um and passion is the word that is used in front for a reason. Like we want to see um actionable change within our community, but that community uh change comes at a cost. Um so e no matter how much good we want to do, um be sustainable seafood, like we we have a great UPS hub, so um shipping in seafood costs money, uh paying our employees more costs money, offering insurance costs money, and like Ann said, it's a four percent profit margin. You want to just keep taking Pac-Man bites out of a little piece of uh pie, it gets to the point to where all the passion is um basically a donation to the community instead of building something that can actually be um you know a a pillar for for the community.
SPEAKER_04Well, just to make sure uh to confuse you three uh enough, we're gonna have Michael ask half the questions too. So uh let Michael pick it up from here.
SPEAKER_02All right. Um with the our cover story coming up, and uh one of the big issues I know people are talking about is uh the fact that the Oaks post time has been moved back to APM, and so people are losing some settings. So I'm wondering how all of you are responding to this.
SPEAKER_01Um you know, Churchill Downs is in the Derby, obviously, is one of the biggest things that we had going on in Kentucky. It was the biggest thing until we had the bourbon boom a couple years ago. Um I don't know if Churchill Downs is maliciously trying to target restaurants. Everything is a business. But what I think that should have happened is there should be more talk within the community on what can we do to make this something that would work for everybody. The ticket prices and everything that's going on, there's definitely enough financial uh positivity to help everybody. But if you make it all about yourself, then that kind of makes it difficult for everybody else to get excited. I don't feel like the guests that are coming in or the people that are visiting are gonna have the opportunity to feel the essence of the city. Louisville's a great city to be in. We have our own personality. Um and if they just stay at the track all day, they get that one singular experience and they don't really get to have a reason to come back. Sure.
SPEAKER_03How about you? Um I don't know if I had too much to add to that. Lauren said it really well. Um, you know, I think for us, again, being a new restaurant, um, personal experience, we have, you know, private parties, and something I think we all learned from COVID is pivoting. Um and, you know, just kind of yeah, well, you know, just doing on a lot. Um, but yeah, you know, Derby this year is definitely different for us. Um reservations are much lower, private events are lower. Um, I think the track is definitely keeping a lot of a lot of business that would typically come and celebrate. I think when I moved here, you know, bars are open until 7 a.m. and people partying all day long. Um so I think it's it's a very different um type of environment. Um, but we just pivot and keep moving. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Mm-hmm. So after Churchill Downs announced the change in post time, then they reached out to the Kentucky Restaurant Association to say, okay, let's have a conversation. After they had announced it, right? So I and they've been in, I'm on the board of the other restaurant association. They've had lots of different conversations and they're trying to put billboards and they're trying to put flyers and they're trying to make websites and all this shit and asking for our reservation sites so that they can send their customers to come when, not entirely sure, right? Um, so there has been some effort, however, it it feels a little bit um, you know, as a last-minute effort to be like, well, we don't want to upset you too much, so we're gonna, we're gonna do these sort of, you know, sort of almost condescending things. Um, I had a meeting with my managers a couple months ago saying, okay, what are we gonna do this year if Oaks isn't, you know, what we think it's gonna be? And we talked through a whole bunch of different things and ultimately kind of came down to like, okay, we could stay open later, but then we're just serving a bunch of drunk people, which increases our liability. And I don't want to be there until four in the morning. I'm 40, you know, like that's not fun. You know, like I want to go to bed, shoot. Um, so we ended up making no changes that we'll just observe this year and see how it goes. Honestly, I have been pleasantly surprised that my reservations are not as bad as I expected them to be. They feel fairly normal. Um, so I we were thinking, okay, maybe people come in and just go on Saturday, but don't go to both Friday and Saturday, even though I feel like the package deal of the weekend is kind of a thing. So um, yeah, so I I've been I I've been pleasantly surprised that it hasn't been as bad as I thought it was gonna be. But I used to do a lot more events, like private events and caterings on Friday, and I have like a box lunch, you know, like it's that definitely has has hurt that side of the business as well. So um, you know, there but you're right, Lawrence.
SPEAKER_04I mean, they're a business, so I'd yeah, and Michael, you talked to Churchill Downs for your story.
SPEAKER_02They had a what was their statement, I guess, in uh well basically they they feel like being in prime time is gonna give the race more exposure and uh ultimately uh attract more people to Louisville for the derby and um increase tourism and economic development.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So for what it's worth, I think you know that's that was their thinking on it. Um Lawrence, you touched on this a minute ago. You talked about the bourbon boom and that bringing people to Louisville. Uh that, you know, there are kind of other events now on the calendar. It used to be Derby was the only show in town. Now there's uh stuff like the Danny Wimmer festivals in the fall. Do those festivals offset, you know, some of the loss we're seeing from later times at the track? Because yeah, they're making a change this year, but they also made a little change last year and a little change the year before that. Like it's progressively getting later for the last five years or so. Uh whoever wants to take that one, I guess. Do the do the other events, is that kind of offsetting it or does the bourbon tourism offset it at all?
SPEAKER_01I mean, what does it matter? Every restaurant is well, uh not every restaurant, majority of restaurants are four weeks away from closing. If if we do a month that's bad, it's hard to recover from that. So you can't promise me something in September when May is around the corner. I just opened four months ago. I'm not trying to be on the on the stand here and and beg for anything, but like um it has to be something. I I can't really count on September doing anything for me when I need something in May.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Anything to add on that?
SPEAKER_03I mean, I I would say, you know, the convention season as a whole is good for us. So fall Danny Women Festival is definitely bringing crowds. Um, but again, it's another attraction that brings crowds to the festival. So for us being dinner restaurants, I don't know necessarily if I see an influx. Um people are at the festival. Correct. Yeah, so again, um it brings an influx into Louisville for sure. Yeah. Um and you know, hotels definitely get to see it, you know, does influx it. Um but to kind of echo Lawrence, it's not, you know, it's kind of like robbing Peter to PayPal in this sense, right? We're not we're not replacing it by adding that. I think I I think the the festivals are great for Louisville as a whole to bring more exposure here, to bring more people here. Um, same with tourism. Um, I think you know, conventions are great and um other forms of tourism and travel help a lot. Um, but the consistency of of it all is really what's important. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, uh, do those uh I guess do other events, I mean, you've been in business, you said three years at Ed Mishmeesh. I mean, do other events even compare to Derby in the three years that you've uh been doing it, or is it I mean I think I think it just really depends on how you approach business.
SPEAKER_03You know, I I moved here and took a job with 21c at proof.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and you think derby creates a very unique opportunity for people to really want to spend a lot of money, right? The celebration. Um, maybe it's a way for them to, you know, expend something or whatever they're doing, but it's a time to like show off to your clients, spend the winnings you just did. So I think that's the biggest thing that Derby used to have. Um, but again, I think as as we mentioned, Churchill is a business and they're capturing a lot of those types of celebrations as well. Sure. Um, so it used to be a time where, you know, that was when we ordered truffles and caviar and foie gras. Um what we've done at Mish Meach is pretty much stay the same. We don't raise our prices, we don't do anything special. I might order caviar in as a special thing like that, but for the most part, we we stay the same restaurant that we are every other day um and try to just be there for the community. That's kind of the approach for um for this year as well.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Anything to add on that, Ann?
SPEAKER_07Or do you think that um I mean the the one event that really pops out that has been memorable is when the PGA was here a few years ago. That week was better than Derby Week for us. And I was actually pissed that I hadn't raised my prices for that week because I was like, they would have paid all those men in polo shirts. They would have paid and I could have taken their money and that would have been nice, and I and I didn't. Um I mean, we have done every darn different thing for Derby over these almost 20 years that we've been around. So I've done nothing. Um, the first year we were up and we didn't take reservations, and then I had the saddest derby week you could ever imagine. There was no customers because they will not come down unless they have a reservation. I learned that lesson and I didn't have to learn it twice. Um but we've done special menus, we've done prefix menus. I learned that if I didn't take their credit card and scare them into communicating, they wouldn't come in. Once I got their credit cards, then they then they communicate, you know. Um so we raise the prices a little bit. We put out new menus sometimes, specials, you know, different things. Um, but I I don't know, it it's kind of like how I see Valentine's Day and New Year's Eve is like those are the days I actually don't have to work to get people in the door. So I'm gonna put my energy into my Monday night special in January when I really want people to come in. You know, I'm gonna save that sort of marketing capital for those things. Um, but I mean there is like the I mean, I guess I probably see, and you probably see this too, no, more of a boom on like a random Tuesday when there's some giant convention in town and they don't have an activity that evening. Yeah, you know, that that is like, oh my gosh, where do these people come from? And and we're thrilled, you know. So that that kind of stuff really helps a lot. And the like the day concerts, things like that. Exactly. Like the stuff at the Yum Center, the stuff at when Actress Theater was around and doing stuff pretty consistently with bigger numbers. Um, or like the day before the Danny Wimmer festivals.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_07That like Wednesday or Thursday when they get to town. When they get to town before they've gone, that will be good. I I don't do lunch anymore, but when I did lunch, like the Monday after that stuff, people were like just finishing the party and you know having a great time. So that was always a good, those were some of the better lunches was after the thing. Derby m like Monday after Derby was always really good.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I can tell you there's another golf tournament. I think it's in June, the Isko Championship. So maybe maybe queue up those price increases for that.
SPEAKER_02I'm usually trying to get in touch with one of you when I'm on deadline. I have my editor saying you get a comment from so and so, and you're it seems like restaurant owners are always busy. And I know a lot of times I just drop in. So I'm wondering uh what's the most challenging part of running your business?
SPEAKER_04I think you've touched on a lot of it.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, this is all three different phases of things, right? So I do feel like the challenges where each of us are is gonna be different simply because of sort of like the space that we're in in the entrepreneurial journey. Or or I could just maybe sum it up and say staff, you know. Like when you have like that key person leave either with a short notice or very little notice, that is gonna throw the entire thing upside down. Yeah, no, I mean I my entire like ethos is built to avoid that, right? It's it's built to get a long notice when people leave because it's can be so tragic. Um so yeah, that that's that's a big one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it's uh, you know, time time managing and and knowing what needs and deserves your attention in that moment. You know, I think I don't know if Lawrence feels this too, but as a chef and owner, it's it's very difficult to understand when you are in the kitchen or when you have to do other things, whether it's financial or fixing a broken something and when to know if I need to call someone to fix it or if I'm fixing it. Um those are the challenges that I think I face mostly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, been there, done that. Yeah. Um I learned how to be a handyman. So I I think my biggest challenge is staffing. Um for what we're trying to do, and in the city of Louisville, there's it's it's a bit of a it's hard for people to understand because there's no frame of reference. Um so like trying to get people and train them and invest in them while also paying the bills and making sure everybody's happy and everything, and being the therapist, I say that's the hardest part about being a restaurant owner. Um and also being a young uh restaurant owner, it's hard for people to kind of separate. I have a lot of people that I've worked with in the past as their chef or their sous-chef. Um, it's hard to create that dividing line of like, I'm not an employee here. I'm here to provide the space for you to do your thing.
SPEAKER_02Um for the last year or so, we've had these on and off tariffs. We had rising food, uh, or fuel prices. And I'm wondering if you've had to change ingredients or menu items due to cost or uh lack of avail availability.
SPEAKER_03Uh I mean, I think wine has been a big one that we've noticed at Mechmeesh. Um but food locally, you know, it's kind of the same uh situation when during COVID, uh local food prices don't fluctuate as much as, you know, commercial industrial commodity foods, right? So utilizing a lot of local ingredients, um those prices are higher than commodity sometimes, but they stay more consistent. So luckily we haven't had to change our menu too much. But wine prices, we've seen some increases 10% or so here and there, and we've adjusted, either eaten the cost depending on what the wine is or increased a little bit.
SPEAKER_07I know the National Restaurant Association, one of their big things is trying to keep that like US, Mexico, Canada, the NAFTA agreement in place because that's those are the places that the majority of our stuff is coming from when it's not from here. And so like they've worked really hard behind the scenes to try and get that, you know, held in place so that some of those prices aren't swinging all over the place. Limes. Yeah, avocados.
SPEAKER_03Limes are$100 a case right now.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So is okra. Which is supposed to be one of those ingredients that you make do with it's a hundred dollars a case. Oof. I had to stop putting in a gumbo because I'm spending more money on okra than I am the protein that's going in the gumbo. So, like, um that's a US grown product as well. Like, it's not only affecting things that are getting shipped in, um there's a Issue with workers and they don't have enough workers to produce this product and get it um out to us. So um yes, the tariffs hurt, but I think it's just all around cost. I also wonder is it necessary or is it just going with everything else because gas prices are rising, is everything else rising? Is it just um everything's rising because people will pay it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Opportunity.
SPEAKER_04They're just testing to see, you know, what the limit is, I guess. Pain for a show.
SPEAKER_00I'm Jim Allen, Vice Chair of Baird. For over a century, Louisville families have relied on Baird to provide customized financial solutions. In addition to wealth planning and trust services, Baird also offers extensive investment banking capabilities to clients ranging from large corporations to family-owned businesses. Finally, our public finance team provides valuable advice to municipalities, school districts, and academic institutions in need of capital. Yes, Louisville, Baird has you covered.
SPEAKER_04All right. Well, I came up in uh print journalism, and an old editor once told me to always ask the hard questions first. And I think we did that. We talked about a lot of uh challenging things uh so far on the show. So I want to have a little more fun with these next couple of questions. Um I'm gonna start with this one, and we've kind of we've kind of been hinting and walking around it a little bit. Is Louisville really a foodie city? Or does every city just think they're a foodie city? Uh whoever wants to take this one first can uh oh I'll put my foot in my mouth. Go for it, man.
SPEAKER_01Let's do it. Um I think that Louisville is a city that has a lot of restaurants. We're not a foodie city. Um it takes a while for something new to catch on here, and that's not what foodie cities do. Foodie cities will rush to the first, like be try to be the first ones there, analyze it, go back if it's not the experience that they thought, and then maybe give it two or three chances because it it evolves. It takes a minute to get uh the footing. And also I think that um we are lacking a lot of flavors or cuisines that would make us a foodie city. We're like five years behind on certain things to where it's it may be trendy or happening in other big cities, it's not happening in Louisville yet. Um I think that we're getting there for sure. Um there's a lot more cultural food that's coming in. When Mish Meesh opened, that was a big thing. Um there there's a lot of there's a lot of restaurants that are popping up that are getting popular, and I think we're headed in the right direction for sure. But I don't think we're there quite yet.
SPEAKER_04Any anyone else want to jump on that one?
SPEAKER_07The word foodie makes me want to throw up all of myself. I just don't like the word. And like the people that say I'm a foodie. I'm like, you're my least favorite customer. Sorry if anybody here calls themselves a foodie. It's like that's the person that's gonna give like a three and a half star review and nitpick the fact that like my toilet paper wasn't folded right in the bathroom. You know, like uh so I I reject the question, David. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_04It's quite all right.
SPEAKER_07This was the hardest one so far, and you said they're supposed to be a good one.
SPEAKER_04I thought I was asking the easy one. Um and then second part of the show. I will say what what you said, Lawrence, that totally tracks with other things I've heard about Louisville. Louisville doesn't take a lot of risk in investments uh and that sort of thing. So I could see it being true that Louisville doesn't take a lot of risk when it comes to trying a new place. You know, they like stick with their favorites or whatever.
SPEAKER_07I I do have to jump in and counter that a little bit because as a buy-in restaurant in 1997, it was when my brother-in-law first opened across from a homeless shelter. People came, you know, they they they didn't know what the food was, they couldn't pronounce it, they were scared of the neighborhood, and they came and they kept coming, you know. So our costs were real low back then. So we probably needed like six customers to break even. Yeah. So we could, you know, we could give it the the long haul to build it. And my brother-in-law like sacrificed a massive amount to get that brand going for the 10 years before I got involved. So I I will I will give him that credit. Um, but so there is that part of Louisville that I'm like, oh, you know, like Do you think your restaurant could open today? My rent would be different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, it was it was a different my rent was thirteen hundred and twenty-six dollars when we opened in 2007. I should have been born earlier, yeah. I mean, I I could I could make rent in a good lunch, you know. Like it was it was a different time, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and that's that's true of of so many so many different sectors. So um real estate too. So um, all right. Hopefully this one is is more fun. Uh I really blew it on that first one. Um what restaurant in town, besides your own, is your favorite place to eat?
SPEAKER_07The two at this table. This food is so good. Like when I went to okay, so Meesh Meish started as chef in residence at Wiltshire. I went in thinking I was going.
SPEAKER_03Ann wrote or helped me start my business by helping me write my business plan. Oh, nice. And filing my LLC information for me.
SPEAKER_07So but I didn't know any of that was happening. I thought I was going to Wiltshire on market to have dinner with one of my girlfriends. I sat down and I got this menu and was like, this is not Susan Hirschberg, what is happening right now? And was blown a freaking way. And then came back several other times while he while you were still transitioning. And that ended up being there the last day before it was the end of Wiltshire, which was also an accident. Um, but the food at, I mean, and then I was just at Murray's like two weeks ago. The food is spectacular. It is like it is comforting and unique and special all at the same time. Like, if you all haven't been to both places, you have to go.
SPEAKER_04All right. Noam, how about you? Favorite restaurant?
SPEAKER_03I I frequent uh Anko sushi a lot. It's probably where me and my wife go the most often. Um, you know, I think what An over there is doing, I don't know if anyone's been to Anko or heard of it, um, but it's a sushi counter um at the streetery uh over in the south end. Um and An um is just super passionate and getting incredible quality uh seafood and fish and putting out incredible sushi. Um and it's very inspiring. It reminds me kind of, you know, when I started Mish Michael, I was just doing random pop-ups at Newvelle or the Merryweather and different things like that. And I I see the um the passion, and he's just like super nice. Um, and it's it's really cool to see something like that in Louisville um and succeeding, um, which is it's really nice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. How about you, Lawrence?
SPEAKER_01So I admittedly, I don't go out to eat much. Um, but one of my favorite spots is um Al Jahar out on Barts Town Road. It used to be Schwarmaking. Uh-huh. Um, their food is incredible, their staff is like top-notch. They'll remember you every time you go in, they'll give you something extra. And um, I find myself eating there uh most often when I go out to eat.
SPEAKER_04So it's nice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02This next question might be hard, but my only defense is David wrote it. So who knows? So, and I know we have uh all you represent. We have two new Lou restaurants here and uh Highlands, and then uh Noam has a place in Clifton. So I'm asking, what's the best neighborhood for restaurants in Louisville and why? That's tough.
SPEAKER_07I know I don't know how to answer this one, so I'm hoping one of you guys have a good idea.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I think best is interesting because I think best from a business perspective, I would stick with the Nulu for the density of tourism and when locals want to go have fun and be out and density and accessibility and ease. I think Nulu really is doing a great job with that. But my favorite is Clifton and Crescent Hill. Um, I love walking down Frankfurt Avenue, I love being in that area. Um, those are my two personal personal opinions on that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07That's fair.
SPEAKER_01I'm at an advantage because Bartsdown Road is long. Yeah. That's true. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna stick with the Highlands. Um we got Jack Fries, which is one of my favorite restaurants. We got Fat Lamb, we got Cipellini that just opened. Um, and then you got classics, Zaz pizzas, really good. Um, you got weeded pizzas, well, like I think with a there's a lot of diversity on Barstown Road as well. Yeah, and there's just a lot of history.
SPEAKER_04So I and places like Zaz. I mean I don't know how long Zaz has been there, but it's been there for like at least 20 years, 30 years. Yeah. And same with uh Ditto's still kicking after all these years. So uh there's just some places that are just mainstays along there. How about you?
SPEAKER_07I mean, I love the the fact that my sales have increased every year because of the neighborhood. Um I love Mishme in Nulu. And I'm gonna leave it at that. I mean, I personally go to Bardstone Road more because I can walk there.
SPEAKER_04I suppose it was a loaded question. Um let me throw this. I'm I'm I'm ablibbing Michael. Um I feel like the rents. We talked about what's the best neighborhood. Like, what's the worst neighborhood for rents? Do you guys like New? Because I feel like the Highlands is like also pretty challenging. I mean, yeah, it's hard for anybody to say that.
SPEAKER_03I, you know, we mentioned Wiltshire, Susan uh Herzwork is still my landlord, and Me Schmeesh would not be there without Susan. Right. She has created an incredible situation for me to allow me to operate Me Shmeish. Um and so, you know, if it wasn't for her, um, I don't know any other real other landlords there or anyone renting that isn't a developer and their rent prices are not uh friendly with a small business or something that can come across as genuine and um have just the that level of stress taken off of making sure you're making your rent payment.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I think there's two owner-operated business buildings and businesses in the entire neighborhood, and we're one of them, and Taste Fine Wines is the other one. Um it's yeah, it there is a disconnect, which is part of where I feel like the neighborhood is like like there's this this gap and it and attention, and that like that's why it sort of is becoming what it is, which feels a little bit gross. Shouldn't say that.
SPEAKER_03Um it's a little different than the one you started.
SPEAKER_06It's really different than when I started. Yeah, really different, yeah.
SPEAKER_04All right, Michael, I'll stop at my hurry.
SPEAKER_02No, I remember when uh I first interviewed you and you told me that uh when you came to Louisville, it was all about pork belly and bourbon, and that you had been amazed at how the restaurant scene had evolved. And so I'm wondering uh what all of you think the local dining scene is missing now and and what we could do to help it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I think continuing to support, you know, chef-owned, chef-driven restaurants is huge. Um, you know, I you know, I'm really excited. Like our friend uh Ming is opening Tana soon, which is gonna be a high-end Taiwanese restaurant on with Anko Sushi. Um, and just supporting those like independent chef-owned, chef-driven concepts uh that are really coming, you know, it was it's created as a business, obviously, but um there's more identity behind it and there's more of a purpose behind it. Um, and I think that that is the biggest thing and a big draw still for me in Louisville. I don't know if that really answered your question or not.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sure, sure.
SPEAKER_01Lawrence, or do you guys? Let me state the question.
SPEAKER_02Uh what do you think of the dining scene is missing and how could we help improve it?
SPEAKER_01I think it's missing diversity. Um I think that there's certain things that we could definitely have within the city that would uh bring people to different locations. I think the South End, those restaurants, a lot of them like Anko. If some of those were in Nulu or Barstown Road or Germantown, they would kill. They would absolutely kill, but a lot of people just don't know about them yet. So um we we've got hurry for curry right next to us in the highlands, and their food is bonkers. It's so good, but um they're not as busy as they should be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I used to live around the corner from Vietnam Kitchen, and I would have neighbors that lived there for years and never been to Vietnam Kitchen, and it used to shock me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think uh to add to that, I mean, I think like making sure that you know Louisville has a a comfort about it. We were talking about that before we started this this podcast just now, and um you know, people exploring beyond their comfort zone, I think is really important. You know, I think just um yeah, they and everyone's guilty of it, you know. We have our our go-to spots, but really trying new places, making an effort to taste those different restaurants and and dining different restaurants. The classics will always be there, you know. But yeah, making sure that we're giving because a lot of those restaurants, again, you know, it's uh margins are so slim, volume is the biggest thing, right? Even if even if my margin is great and I don't have anyone coming into the door, I can't do anything. Right.
SPEAKER_07So I think another thing that would be beneficial for everybody is like just more collaboration, more connection, more community. You know, so like the Louisville originals is like a thing of the of of the past that um Jennifer's is working to get to get some little part of it back going with Libra. Um but just like it was something that I experienced during COVID that was like different groups popped up of restaurant owners who were trying to support each other. That was like if we don't share our secrets and our information, we're all gonna drown together. So we have got to like sort of get over the idea of competition and work together. And that was like it was a pivotal thing for me. I also started doing business coaching around the same time and sort of had this shift of like, well, if I share anything that I've learned, then somebody else is gonna succeed and I'm gonna fail. But that's like a scarcity mindset, which is also something we were talking about earlier. And like what I've found is like the more I share, the more other people are successful, and that just sort of like breeds more positivity, you know. So I've tried to start different things of like classes and roundtables, and just trying to sort of build this community where we're sharing best practices like at best, and at worst, at least just like therapy for each other because it's a improvise that a lot. Yeah, you know it's it's a specific path to do this work, and you can you can be in your silos. And once I started to have the ability, again, because the other work I was doing to talk to other restaurants, it changed my perspective of my work in the biggest way. And and it, yeah, it's just being in community is is the answer to a lot of stuff.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm uh I'm gonna ab lib one more time here and uh kind of I feel like you guys are kind of hinting on this question, but has there ever been a dish that you've rolled out that you you wish the community would have embraced a little more? And um you're you're like, damn it, I'm ahead of my time. You know, you know, and and if so, what was it? Um, you know, and will it ever be back? Anyone want to take that one?
SPEAKER_01Uh I I can start off. Uh I've got a lamb skewer on upstairs, and it's it's more West African Creole flavors. We just opened our um our tasting menu two weeks ago, and like nobody's ordering it. It's the staff's favorite, it's my favorite dish. Nobody's ordering it because it has ingredients that are uncommon. Um but I don't people are ordering to be comfortable and not for flavor. So um I think it's confusing people, but I'm not gonna take it off. Somebody's gonna have to sit there and be like, this is delicious, and let everybody else.
SPEAKER_04We all have homework. We all have this dish.
SPEAKER_07Okay, you you gotta pair it with like your most popular sauce, side, whatever. Like this is this is the stuff we've done over the years. This is how I was able to sell rabbit for 15 years as our like third most popular entree is we put our lima beans with it because people are like, Whatever the lima beans come with, I want that. And we put it with a mole sauce, something else that people wanted. And then it made them like I I learned I had to like do all of these little psychological tricks to like to to introduce a more unique protein and then get them to sell it. You just gotta keep committing to it. You have the right, you have the right mentality.
SPEAKER_05Thank you.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. I mean, beef tongue was the thing that came to my mind is like beef tongue tacos are spectacular and they're the least seller when we have them on the menu. We'll bring them back again, you know. But I know, yeah. This face back here, he's like, what? Right, exactly. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I have a pro like we I put chicken liver mousse on the menu at Meach Me Sh about, I don't know, a year and a half ago. That's really good. Yeah, and and my approach with it, because you know, I think you go, you know, I lived in Charleston and like Fig and Charleston is a restaurant that's like known for their chicken liver pate. It's been around for like 25 years, something like that. So there's like these staple restaurants. When I moved here, I would go to Jack Fry's and get chicken liver mousse at the bar and have a Manhattan. That was like my go-to.
SPEAKER_07Um always been classy.
SPEAKER_03It was after yoga, you know. Yoga, yoga clothes to the Jack Fry's bar was, you know, I loved it. Um but you know, my approach with that, because I kind of knew it wouldn't sell as much, was I priced it like really low, like make it like so, and then when someone's like in the communicating with the servers, if someone's curious about it, sometimes we just gift it out if they're timid about ordering it. And kind of like, I think there's a lot of training that has to go with our clientele. Um, you know, when we opened our menu had a glossary on it, we had a glossary section because it was so much information to uh get across, and so many of our dishes have unique uh names, whether it's Hebrew or Arabic. Um, and so um there's just a ton of education, you know. I honestly on all three of our restaurants that um we have to get to the consumer, and I think a lot of that again is um how do you let them be more trusting? Um now we don't really have too many issues. We could put anything on the menu and generally it sells, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04All right, we are at time, but I cannot help myself. Michael, you wrote about the uh Michelin um program a while back. You want to ask about the I have a feeling I know the answer to this question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I think I do too. But uh we were we asked the question before do you think Louisville is ready for a Michelin guide?
SPEAKER_01No, no.
SPEAKER_04How'd I know that's where we were going with that? Even Michael, when you talk to uh who was it? It was uh fat lamb, Dallas McGarrett.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think his answer was kind of the same, right?
SPEAKER_02Like you gotta have there's a lot of like you gotta have a tasting menu, and there are a lot of expectations that come with it. Right. And he said the Louisville crowd mostly likes to have fun when they go out to eat.
SPEAKER_01And so if I could explain, if I could just explain a little bit more, sure. You have to what is Michelin gonna do for us? Like you have to sorry, I was about to say too much. No, keep going. I was about to say too much. Um that's not gonna do anything. Is it gonna make people go out to restaurants more, maybe for a week? But like go to the restaurants that we already have. It's not gonna what it might bring people from out of town to open up restaurants and be like they're gonna steamroll everybody else that's already here because they have three Michelin stars in Chicago, but it's it just appreciate what you already had. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07That's the same response I had, like the that's like maybe 10, 15 years ago, James Beard House asked us to come there and cook, right? And they were like, it's not on TV, nobody knows you're doing it. You have to pay for you, you have to fly your whole staff there, you have to put them up to buy all the ingredients in New York City. I put together a budget, and again, this was like 10, 15 years ago. It was like$15,000. I did not have five extra dollars at that point, right? And and I was like, there's no way that I can parlay that into even making back those costs here in Louisville. Like I can get a story in business first, thank you, Michael. But like that's not gonna pay me$15,000 worth of cost to go out there, you know. So some of those client name things, I mean, I think it's a completely valid point.
SPEAKER_04A lot of back-end costs. Um, um we do this every week. We don't always have the audience and we don't always have uh such great guests, but we do have a show every week. Uh and if you're you're if you're here in the room or if you're out there listening to us, uh be sure to check out our uh podcast on any of the popular services, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, our website. Uh so that in could that concludes our event. Uh let's give a uh well uh thank you to our guest here for uh for spending time with us today. Thank you so much, Ann Gnome, Lawrence, Michael. Thank you guys. For your support, and of course, thank you everyone who's uh here in the room or out there listening to us, and we will see you next time. Bye bye.