Restored Gospel Podcast

148 Twenty truths of the B of M - the Atonement

October 16, 2021 Michael Barrett, Corey Stark Season 3 Episode 148
Restored Gospel Podcast
148 Twenty truths of the B of M - the Atonement
Show Notes Transcript

Truth #2 the atonement.   End of story.  Nothing added.  The final word.  Join us as we discuss salvation and the infinite atonement.

The Mormons can't teach these truths because of the way they have strayed from the Book of Mormon substituting modern day revelation and teaching to supplant the plain gospel.  The "Restoration has not taught these truths due to fear of "separation" or "contention" or because they have created God in their image as opposed to knowing Him as He is.  They quickly left the new covenant even the Book of Mormon and the plain and precious gospel contained therein and were admonished that they would remain under this condemnation until they returned to the message contained in the Book of Mormon.  We explore some of these plain and precious truths and why the Mormons can't teach them and perhaps why the "Restoration" has not.    We have a beautiful gospel to teach us how to come to Christ.   Let us explore these truths.


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Speaker 1:

Welcome to restore gospel podcast .

Speaker 2:

[inaudible]

Speaker 1:

Welcome back. I'm Mike Barrett. I'm Corey stark. We are two friends having casual conversation about the things of eternity. And we welcome you into that conversation. Corey , today is a big day because we started 20 truths to the book of Mormon and we have moved on to truth. Number two, I feel like four weeks. We're actually going to be with us. We are going to probably skip past truth number two, which simply says the significant, the significance of an infinite debt of sin, the requirement of an infinite payment , um, it kind of coincides with, I think, wherever we're going, truth, number three, we want to talk about the complete removal of sin by the atonement. Now we're talking that the , the whole title of this class, or really the study that, that you put together and, and just have documented is 20 truths of the book of Mormon that the Mormons can't teach and the restoration doesn't, there's a distinction Corey , and we should make that the latter day. Why is my mic not on just getting squirreled ? Actually, my mic was not on, but the other channel picked it up and nothing anybody needs to know about listening . All right , we're going to continue on. We should make the distinction, Corey , that , um, the latter day Saint church, of course, really well, it just took, it took changing that doctrine and went to infant or infant testimonial. I mean, just like squared to a hundred, right? I mean , really that man can become God or God was a man and levels of heaven , celestial marriage, temporal rights, all kinds of things like that. So we know in the Autodesk church, we , we did not do that. We stuck to what we said was the plain gospel, what the scriptures teach. And we didn't go with these new revelations and writings of Brigham young and other things, but that , uh , some people did, some people did, but even that being said, and I, I just heard it mentioned, I heard it mentioned in a class the other day, as you were teaching this a number of weeks ago and that , um, how doctrine and things had come about and been influenced in Navu the comment was made well, but yeah, but basically the good people or the real church left way before then and maintained well that's, that's not really true. Even the reorganization carried forth a lot of the philosophy and doctrine that had been subtly changed in Navu . And though it wasn't anything as egregious as polygamy or as a, you have to be sealed in the temple to be in celestial glory. There were other , uh , falsehoods that became part of our culture and interpretation of scripture. Is that correct?

Speaker 3:

I'm a hundred percent believe it . And I, it's not something I inherently knew growing up in the church, but I see this now much more clearly. Uh, you know, I , my attitude now is you could just take a pen and put a big circle around Navu and put an X through it because there's not a whole lot to glean from there. Unfortunately, most of the people who are LDS everything about the uniqueness of Mormonism comes from that era and it was spiritually incorrect.

Speaker 1:

Well , I mean , we know this, the city was, the saints were runoff . The city was largely , uh, decimated the temple was blown down by a storm and destroyed,

Speaker 3:

Caught on fire or no. Yeah, no, what was it ? It was fire first. And then I think a tornado took it out later. Yeah. The rest of it,

Speaker 1:

It certainly was not, did not seem to be favored or protected by God. Uh , and I believe due to the wickedness that had crept into the ministers and the hearts of the people and the men that , um, with adultery and polygamy, which if you read Edmond Briggs , his story early reorganization of the church in his experience envision the saw two women, one was polygamy and one was murder. And he said, these two go hand in hand is what the Lord told him. And really that's, you know, there's not enough women to go around. Some of the men have to die. And I think that's exactly when you think about the, just the terrible, terrible thing that polygamy was and how that influenced the church. But to think that as the church, you know , as those stalwarts hold on, are joined to none of the branches that broke off , uh, whether right or wrong , uh, when it was reorganized by Joseph the third , uh, to think that some of that culture and thinking , um, wasn't still prominent. It may . It was, I think.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Yeah. And there was along with that, just the men themselves, there was this big effort among the people who became the RDS church to want to exonerate Joseph Smith from everything and make sure Brigham got all the blame. And Joseph got none of the blame. And it's like, I don't know if you can do that either. And that's where, you know, that's where people then get stuck on history and, you know, people in the early days of the reorganization, we're still trying to prove that Joseph was somehow, I'm just gonna use the phrase, like the profit of this dispensation. I mean, that's not language I even ascend to, and it's, it's not something you see in the book of Mormon at all. It's it's words of men that became prominent in our thinking, because it's like, okay, well, Joseph's still the , the prophet over all this last dispensation of time. And you know, it's like none of that either you just go back to the book of Mormon, God is the savior of the world. That's what this was all trying to lead us to.

Speaker 1:

And this is what has led to a couple of series of classes that you have done the final prophecy , what the book of Mormon teaches. And then you're on what the book of Mormon teaches round two. And then this document 20 truths to the book of Mormon that, that haven't been taught and that we aren't aren't teaching because let's stop reconciling history and let's go back to the word that was given and the purpose that it was given. So we don't stumble so that we have a plain and precious restoration of truth of who God is, so that it can change us, right? So we can love one another as God loved us. And so we can understand his love for us, very simple, very plain. So that brings us Cory to truth number three, and this , uh, we just prefaced this, this, this is going to be different for the Mormons versus the RLD history, but nonetheless, both has, has really suffered a little bit. What is truths truth, number three, say

Speaker 3:

This complete removal of sin by the atonement. Uh, this is the thing that is not really taught in Mormonism. They , um, they might say it happens if you are perfect and pay your tithing and were sealed in the temple. Uh , you know, but these ideas of our individual works that get us a higher level of glory. There's no such thing. There's, there's no such thing. This it's totally removed from the real message of the gospel is that our sin was infinite. And the only way it could be removed was that the infinite being God himself shed his blood. And if there's one thing that Jews knew is that there was no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, but it was an animal, you know, and it was , uh , it was just something, a token to teach them of the greater, well, this is totally, you know, it's , it's totally discord from Mormonism idea that somehow by our works, that we improve our station, we improve our merit and that of the infinite spectrum out there of salvation opportunities. You know, you hope for the highest, but if you don't get there, you'll fall somewhere in between. Um, it's none of that because all of it puts the merit back on us, right?

Speaker 1:

Uh , the real meaning of salvation, that word salvation is very , uh, is important. It's it's used in Christianity. It's used in classes it's used in broadcasts and sermons of all different denominations of Christianity, but we're talking about not going to a terrible, fiery bad place. We're talking about not remaining in the, in the ground forever when we die. We're where we talk about being with our loved ones one day in this place where we all continue to live, where, where we don't ever have to leave one another again, and that we are with God, our creator, we are in heaven, we are saved. We are, we are receiving salvation. And that meaning of that word, as you just said, is to have our sin completely removed. And there is no addition. There is no added a bonus based on , um , who you were or how much good you did or what you did, but that your sin was either removed or not. And so the philosophy or the, or the , the important thing is how is our sin removed? And you just said , uh, by a complete removal by the atonement of an infinite being, but, but we asked the question, well, did we change this doctrine though? I , I have , uh , I have a book that was printed , uh, by the church as an educational device, as a missionary tool. And I wanted to read just an excerpt from that. And then we will look at the scripture that I think was well , that's recorded that this, this thought process was based on. And let's see if it's a proper interpretation. Yeah. Okay. Just a second here. Let me pull it up. So this is the angel message series chapter eight. Um, and this one's written by this is titled the eternal judgment by Albert Smith , uh, of the reorganized church. So let's start out with a parable that has given Cory and that is used to then carry over into how salvation comes or what salvation entails. Um, there's a story of a builder I'm gonna , I'm gonna , um, S uh, surmise this, or what summary I'm going to summarize this. Um, this guy came and he says, I'm going to surprise a man with a gift of a comfortable home, but I'm not going to tell him the purpose that I hired him to build the home, but I'll give him some fair wages. And so the builder left the work to his Watchman , but the Watchman said, I can cheat this man. I can skimp on the material. I can skimp on the work and , uh , maybe take more money than myself. So when the Samaritan returned, the builder said, that is the fine house. I built you on the hill. Good. Was the reply, go move your folks into it. At once for the house is yours. Here's the deed. The man was thunderstruck. He saw that instead of cheating his friend for a year, he had been industriously cheating himself. If I had only known it was my own house, I was building, he kept muttering to himself. Every man who tries to cheat God or his neighbor, and by cheating himself, we are building, okay, all of this up to this is good, ethical, moral. This is how you should treat other people, right. As if it was yourself, this is all good. But this is where I start to wonder. It says, every man who tries to cheat God, or his neighbor ends by cheating himself, we are building for eternity. The house we build, we must live in the reward we work for. We shall get , um, you might say that's, that's true. That's, that's good. Is it? But let's, let's see where we go with this. Um, let's read. So here's the scripture that was used to support this idea, according to the grace of God, which is given unto me as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation and another buildeth there on, but let every man take heed. How he built a therapy. One for other foundation can no man, lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, every man's work shall be made manifest for the day shall declare it because it shall be revealed by fire. And the fire shall try every man's work of what sort of is if any man's work abide, which he has built there upon, he shall receive a reward. Okay. That's first Corinthians three, 10 through 14. So Corey , as we've talked about everything in context, let's go to first Corinthians three and see if this is saying what the commentary in this angel message tracked used by the churches saying, okay, so starting in one and first Corinthians three, and I am using the Christian standard Bible, do this re re listen to this reading, the inspired version of the king James version. It's the meaning is just easier in our language here. And I don't think it changes the context of it. So verse one, so brothers and sisters, I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but rather as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ, who's, who's talking Corey , Paul, write to the Corinthians. Yeah . Writing a letter. Rather, I fed you with milk, not solid food for you. We're not ready for solid food. Even now, you are still not ready for. You are still of the flesh for as long as there is jealousy and quarreling among you. You are not, you are not of the flesh and behaving accord . You are of the flesh at night, sorry. And behaving. According to human inclinations, he's asking the question for as long as there is jealousy and correlation among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving according to human inclinations for one, one of you says, I belong to Paul and another, I belong to Apollos. Are you not merely human? What do you think that means? Like, kind of fighting over who's the , the right Christian or the right denomination or the right group of saints. Right?

Speaker 3:

Right. Exactly. Kind of division for whatever reason or who baptized you of Paul's baptism of someone else's yeah.

Speaker 1:

He says, what then is Apollos? What is Paul? Who are they servants through whom you came to believe as the Lord assigned to each, I planted Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. The one who plants and the one who waters have a common purpose and each will receive wages. According to the labor of each, for we are God's servants working together. You are God's field. God's building Cory right there. What does that say about wages or rewards that's does that have anything to do with mine's better than yours? Cause I did a better work. He's saying where it's actually the exact opposite. Is it not exactly? He just says we all have our own thing to do quit. Quit saying I'm better than Apollos or I'm I'm with Paul. He's the best. It just says I'm planning. We're laboring together. Someone else waters. We're both getting a reward from God. Both of it is God's work. And then God's the one doing the work. He's the one that, that gives the growth. So it says we are God's servants working together and you are God's field. God's building according to the grace of God, given to me like a skilled master builder, I laid the foundation and someone else is building on it. Each builder must choose with care, how to build upon it for no one can lay any foundation. Other than the one that has been laid, that foundation is Jesus Christ. Now, if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay straw, the work of each builder will become visible for the day will disclose it because it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss. The builder will be saved, but only as through fire complete, actually this is it's ironic. This is saying the exact opposite of what the thought, the theology in the book, the angel tract message is saying, even though they're using the scripture, it's yeah, it's saying people aren't rewarded according to their works. They're rewarded by the fact that either it was the work of God or it was the work of man, which is straw, silver, gold. One of those will be burned up. One will remain exactly, but everything's in the same in the same group. And it's even interesting at the end, it says the builder will be saved, but only as through fire and otherwise, everything that wasn't built on on the word of God will be taken away and the builder will realize that it was all not in that amazing. Now let's go back to, to reading the , um, let's go back to it , to pick up where we left off. So reading once again, angel message. Track number eight, eternal judgment. It says every man who tries to cheat God or his neighbor ends by cheating himself. We are building for eternity. The house we build, we must live in the reward we work for. We shall get that's twisting of the scripture. This first Corinthians had nothing about the house we build. We must live in. It says anything that's not built on. The gospel is going to be, is going to fall. In matter of fact, it says the builder will still be saved, but only by fire, by witnessing to me, that's like that terrible , uh, you know, prison house. You're , you're everything you thought you built on was not was the works of man. Not of God. Now you're going to be spanked for a while , a long while, until you can, you know, God's working so hard to bring you into salvation. You either going to be a son of God or, or , or , um , a son of perdition. Yes . But again, this is the exact opposite. In my opinion, am I reading it wrong? Or I read it with you. I see that. So the house we build, we must live in, make no mistake, saints. Um, you are not going to live in a house that you build based on how good you are and be rewarded based on those works. You are going to live in the kingdom of God at Jesus's right hand, or you will become a son of perdition, but there's not going to be this second best house, you know, better than your neighbors, but worse than the guy across the block. It's just a , it's the gospel doesn't play out that way. They'll reward we work for. We shall get in a sense that is true. The reward is being with Christ, but that's, it's not this house that we're, well, we'll go on to read about this. So let me read down a little further in this track , uh , this theme, and we're talking about, has truth been changed? Is there something more than the atonement to be fair? I want to read through this track , uh , and point out certain points , um, so that we do get things in context. Um, it says that men are being judged. Now that's the title of this next section section. And I believe this is a lot of truth here in a certain sense. Judgment is going on now we're constantly judged and punished or rewarded according to the laws of nature, which are the laws of God. It seems simple, Cory , but I love to smoke meat. And I was out to dinner with my wife yesterday and I had my arms resting on the table and she goes, he really healing up. And I look at my forearms and up and down, both of them, there's little scars and marks where every time I reach into the pit to turn the meat, I get burned. I just rarely ever cook anything without getting burned somewhere or some way. Uh, so it's kind of a joke, but yeah, I've got all these scars. This says right here , um, you put your hand into the fire, you commit a physical sin and you are judged and punished immediately. And I agree with that. Um, but there are spiritual injuries and malformations resulting from corrupt thinking and doing our more hideous, monstrous and terrible than anything, resolving to the flesh for violation of physical laws. What do you think about that? Cory ? That's a spiritual injuries. Deformities from corrupt thinking and corrupt acts. Definitely. I believe. Yeah. I think

Speaker 3:

We're, we're all affected by that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And the, really the , the deal was sin, right? The more we think those thoughts, the more we think after the world and the more we partake in sin, it's not that Jesus can't forgive you, that you can't be covered by the Toma it's that you can't repent. Right? That's the crux of it. Only a repentant person is covered by the blood of Jesus. It's not that he says, oh, that sin was too bad. My blood can't cover you. It's, you've participated in that sin to the extent that you can't repent. And if you can't repent, then no , my blood cannot cover you. And when we talk about forgiveness of sin and communion and coming to Christ and all the things in the church that we do, that's one thing I don't hear of a lot. I hear about repenting from your sins, but it's more, can you repent? And that's the danger of sinning. That's the danger. Um, it says though , uh , going on here, it says that men may appear to sin with immunity for a time, but it is a true saying , be not deceived. God is not mocked for whatever a man . So with that, shall he also reap , uh, do you think that well, let's read on, well, do you think Corey , that, that scripture , um, is used out of context sometimes whatever a man sows he shall reap or is that get into the you're rewarded for your works type thing?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think that's used in two different ways, but I think the original context of it was that, you know, Hey, if, if you do good, like the book of Mormon teaches good is going to be restored to you. If you do evil, evil's going to be restored to you. And ultimately you, you're going to have restored to you how you lived here. So you know what you, so you're going to reap, but that's this beautiful illustration of restoration in the book of Mormon that teaches this idea that, you know , we, aren't going to live a bad life here and suddenly be rewarded for good, you know? And that's the that's the fallacy is that that's not how restoration works restoration puts back. What was right.

Speaker 1:

Well , uh, or talk about preliminary judgment. Moving on through this track. There are , uh, there are all kinds of spirits, all kinds of men dying all the time, all kinds of spirits ascending up to God, do they remain with him? And we've talked about this. We understand that those who find favor with him, I received into paradise to await the final judgment. I don't know if I liked that in turn, find favor with him. Those that were repentant and accepted. Jesus not find favor to me is like even pressed me. Um, okay. I'll give him

Speaker 3:

Okay , good enough. Yeah. And it's like, it's none of that. You know, there , the real meaning of salvation is to have our sin completely removed because we came to Christ and repentance.

Speaker 1:

And I don't want to make, I don't want to make any, a man and a fender for a word or take anything and attributed . But I think as these things add up, you see kind of the philosophy building on, on itself.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. The philosophy of it's on our own merit and that, you know, somehow we persuaded God. It's like, you know, the final judgment, isn't this hard decision by God. It's like, it's very obvious either you were repentant, right. Or you weren't. And , and, and that's a wide chasm between those people. You know, it's like those who were repentant have their sin completely removed to be fully restored to the presence of the fire .

Speaker 1:

Well, I agree with this, a preliminary judgment and the scriptures agree. And then there's some, some quotes here, but we understand those that , that it find favor, go to paradise to wait final judgment while the wicked are sent to the prison house to await the same great event, this , this presupposes a preliminary, a preliminary judgment at death. Um, so then we get to the final judgment that there's a great day of judgment. We are towed. And I saw the dead small and great stand before God. And the books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged out of these things, which were written in the books according to their works. And so now we're going to get into truth, number six, that ties into three, a judged, according to your works. And when we take one scripture and run with it or, or turn it into an animal of its own, that that wasn't meant to be, give it different. Meaning we get in congruent scripture and we have to reconcile things that can't be reconciled or create different philosophies that are extra scriptural .

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Yeah. And then the whole idea of salvation, or even just the restoration becomes this little game in our mind where we're fitting these things together in the way that we see them. You know, it's like we're worshiping our golden calf rather than seeing the God who was on the mountain.

Speaker 1:

Well, here's a scripture from John and, and

Speaker 3:

Just to add from our previous podcasts , that's why the book of Mormon is the standard. So we can come back to it and measure.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. Yes, absolutely. The events that lead up to that day , uh , John 14 three, and this is one that, that , um, questions a lot about eternity. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again. And it only coats part of it here, but that's where he says many matches . My father has, if it weren't. So I would have told you, and we use that to extrapolate the meaning or put meaning on too many levels of heaven, which we can only base that based. We're taking other scripture that we've been given more moderately that gives insight. Then we go back to John and say, well, what Jesus must've meant. See, there's different glories and different levels of heaven. Not at all, not at all. We've we've about that before, but what he's saying is there's place for all of you. There are many mansions, every , um, well, we won't go into the, the Hebrew term .

Speaker 3:

You know, it's like we're in the presence of the father or we are cast out there's, there's no in-between salvation. Firstly , five, four establishes that are our sin from the beginning is what has separated us from God from the beginning. And the removal of that sin allows us to return to God's presence. You know, sin will either be fully removed or fully retained. That's the outcome?

Speaker 1:

Well, this track goes on to talk about , uh, some timelines and things, but I want to get down to here to , it says the basis of reward and punishment. And here's, I think where the extra philosophy comes in , uh, uh, over and above what the scriptures actually say. It is distinctly stated that all men are to be judged according to their works and that we all agree on that. It's just, what does that mean? And the dead were judged out of those things, which were written in the books, according to their works revelation, 20 and behold, I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man, according to his works shall be this idea of merit as a basis of reward appeals to common sense. It is just as God is just, well, it appeals to it appeals to our common sense in this life, in this time. Um, but let's, let's read on it appeals to common sense. It is just as God as just yet. It controverts the old theological idea of one great eternal reward of everlasting glory in heaven, and one great eternal everlasting punishment in hell, just two places and conditions heaven on the one hand hell on the other. It controverts that Cory , it goes against that. So what, what brother Albert Smith is saying right here is this idea. It goes against the entire book of Mormon. Yeah, exactly. And I, I hate to be so blunt, but if you read the message in the book of Mormon, it's one hand or the other,

Speaker 3:

It's a parallel, our souls were eternal. So the reward has to be eternal or the punishment has to be true .

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And , and so folks listening , um, this was a missionary trap . This was a tool to be used to explain the doctrine of the church, the doctrine of Christ that the church would say, and we've already gotten into an area that says that being rewarded on one hand or the other, it goes against common sense, goes against the whole, the gospel. And that's just not true. It's exactly what the book of Mormon speaks up through the whole , um, through the whole book. This is interesting though, revelation 2212, based on what we know of Jesus and how, you know , mosaic , he says, I will come and die for you. And then I will grant you eternity on my right hand. He says, behold, I come quickly. And my reward is with me. Jesus is saying, my reward is with me on coming to give every man, according to his work shall be, I , I believe what he's staying in. The context of all scripture is you're going to be with me if you accepted me or you're not, but it's, my reward is coming with me. It's with me. And one, one thing, right? Yeah,

Speaker 3:

Exactly. In that reward, everyone, according to their works, the works are either you were repentant and your heart changed in time to God or you weren't. And that's the work it's like it's

Speaker 1:

Well, let's see what well, yeah, but let's see what, let's see what the doctrine of the church was , is saying if that lines up. So here we say a line of men for judgment, very popular illustration that I've heard, and that I've used, unfortunately, to try to tell people about God, let us arrange a line of men before us for judgment. At one end of the line is the Munis man that ever lived. And I know we've talked about this before, but it's worth bringing up again at the other end is the best man. Right? So we've got the worst man in the world, the best man, first of all, that's us lining up, man. And that's us looking at men based on what their actions, their

Speaker 3:

Actions. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Right. The guy kicked the dog across the street. We see that. And we , we somehow put him in this line because we saw that. We don't know the fact that that man was beaten, abused for years by his father. And so you can't, you know , this is using again, the thing appealing to common sense and common sense is the sense of men and men sinful brains. Unfortunately it's not the absolute just law of God. Yup , yup . To illustrate. So we line them up and they're graded morally from the best of the worst and stand shoulder to shoulder scarcely an inch apart, physically and morally. So now, where can we put our hand down in this line and say that all on this side, go to heaven. And on that side, go to hell. And if God fixes the dividing line between two certain men, will he say that this man who has missed hell only by the thickness of a hand shall go into heaven and sheriffs a Lester glory equally with the best man who ever lived. And that this other man who has lost heaven by an inch shall go to hell and suffer the same punishment that is meted out to the worst man, whoever profaned the human form, we do better than that here in our high schools , our police courts, we try at least to give reward and proportion to merit and meet out punishment. According to the degree of guilt, we're going to talk about merit, but I want to back up Corey and first talk about morally. What , what are we really saying morally? When we say that, what does that, what does that mean to you?

Speaker 3:

So one is that the dividing line you just described does not

Speaker 1:

Exist. Can you, can you be a moral person and not believe in God?

Speaker 3:

I believe absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . Because

Speaker 3:

What a moral means, you follow the laws of land or you know , your culture culture.

Speaker 1:

Right ? Right. I have one wife

Speaker 3:

By law . I drive the speed limit. I do this and that . And the other,

Speaker 1:

I'm a moral person, but I'm an atheist. I have no belief in Jesus whatsoever. Right . Well, how do you bring that into banking? An analogy of being with God in salvation and heaven. Yeah. So that's a false premise in the first place.

Speaker 3:

It's a false premise that creates a false dividing line. The dividing line is not lining us up according to our individual actions, towards people and grading us that way. It's like that's sent the idea of man. The idea of God is that either have people whose works, prove that their hearts changed and that they did desire him to within their capability or, or not every element of the book of Mormon reinforces this too . When you look at the idea of, you know, Lehigh's vision or NIFA's expanded vision, you get this idea that you're either going towards the tree of life. And in the ways you get there, the rod of iron in the water and all those things symbolize the word and the spirit, or you drift away from those things and you end up at this other spacious building or you go on these lost and forbidden paths. And it's like, the whole idea is there's only one way back to God. And that the river becomes filthy in this vision because it is the justice of God that divides the righteous and the wicked, those people who are penitent, you know, there's, there's a big difference. You can be moral or whatever, but it doesn't mean you're penitence . What ?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So yeah, you're following, even though you don't have it in front of you, that's exactly where we go next drawing . Well, let's draw the line elsewhere. Then if, if, if that doesn't seem fair that you and I, or are separated from just one extra good thing, one extra prayer to me or whatever, but let's find a different way. So it says, we'll draw a line in a different way between those who accept Jesus and those who reject him, I say, absolutely, let's draw the line that way, but now we're going to, well, let's read on very well. We'll rearrange our line of men. The problem is not solved that way. For there still exists. The utmost diversity of character, service, merit and development among those who have accepted

Speaker 3:

Jesus here . Here's where I was just going to say, here's where I want to bring up Jesus' own words. His own words were to the Pharisees who were the ones who had the scriptures memorized. Now that's a good work . Right ? Right. You know, they said these publicans and harlots who I'm hanging out with. He said, they're going to enter the kingdom before, you know what good works did they have, you know, prostitutes. Right. Um, but their hearts changed and it's like, all their other works were washed away

Speaker 1:

Forgiveness. And here I think Cory is, is an argument that I hear repeatedly when trying to speak to members of the church who are , are, are Trent . You know, even my own father, we were having this discussion last week and he, not that he was questioning it, but he just brought up what I've heard, brought up many times. And he was like, well, but you still have to do something. Right. You can't just say you believe Jesus will. Absolutely. And we're going to see that, but see, there's a premise here again that , um, you can't just say you believe in Jesus. No, one's going to say that that's well, no , you can't say you believe in Jesus and not have a change of heart that is not believing in Jesus. So let's, let's not what we're saying here is you can't let men just say this by their mouth and then be judged one way or the other. There there's something much, much deeper than that. So to draw the line between those who accept Jesus and those who reject him well, yes, absolutely. That's what we do. It's just, what, what does that mean to accept Jesus? And what does it mean to reject Jesus? Yeah.

Speaker 3:

And again, come back to the book of Mormon and look at this idea of in the end time, when there are two churches and you know, the church of God are those who accept him and everybody else.

Speaker 1:

And those who are accepting Jesus are those who are repenting and wanting to do away with sin in their life and wanting to desire. Good. Does that mean they're not still in the chains of that sin? It doesn't, but it also means that if you have progressed in sin and you have not sought him in your days of probation here, that that sin becomes so entrenched in your heart that you may say with your mouth, oh, I believe in Jesus, but your heart has no desire to be righteous. And so, regardless of what your mouth says, it's your heart and your actions and you can't be saved because there's sin has a hold on you and you can't desire to righteousness. You just desire sin because you've participated in it. And that's the dangerous of continuing in sin. And that's why saying that this doctrine of right or left is just easy. Believism is just a fallacy. We're taking our own thoughts and putting them in there right away. When we hear Jesus did all the work, our minds naturally go that I see, I, you know, my dad and I were talking to him . He said, well, well you , but you'd have to do good things. Right. And , and my brother-in-law was, were sitting there with said, yeah. I mean, what did Lehigh do when he particular that fruit, when he was, felt the love of God and wanted it and desired it, he wanted everybody to come. If you truly believe in Jesus and are seeking righteousness and you experience his love, you're not gonna be able to sit on your hands for one minute. It's going to flow forth from your entire being to share with other people. And I think to us, that almost seems like a fairy tale because the gospel hasn't had the proper effect with us as a body of people where we are a body, if people doing that, but rather we've, we've taken into this intellectual type of thing of trying to map out what we need to do and where we go. And it's like, but we haven't been changed.

Speaker 3:

Right? The rich young ruler who did all these things, but whose heart wasn't changed, you know, he's the one who, when he said, I've kept all these commandments now, and then Jesus says , and then sell everything you have come to me as like, he couldn't, he couldn't do that. Which means his heart hadn't changed. Yeah .

Speaker 1:

Well, let's follow this line of reasoning again. Let me read this sentence one more time. That if we, if we line people up based on whether they believe in Christ or not, there still exists the diversity of character service and merit. And remember that word merit, right . And development among those who have accepted Jesus. I don't like that either. It doesn't develop well, there's the parable of you get paid at the end of the day or the first day, as long as you're, you've come and done your work and come to know him. It's the same.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. That's who that's just to hang out there for a second. The , the people who, you know, the master says, Hey, do this work. I'll pay a penny. You know, whatever the wage was for the day. And they're happy because they're going to get a penny. And then some people come in at the end of the day, says, Hey, do this work. I'll pay you a penny. And it's and the first people are miffed about that. And it's like, thinking, it's not fair. He says, how is this not fair that I'm doing exactly for you? What I said, and I'm doing it for the , that's what I said, you know, it's all about him. It's not about.

Speaker 1:

And I think if we really get down to the basis of this, what we're talking about Cora is I don't think it's fair. If I've strived my whole, my whole life to deal with sin and try to overcome it. And someone comes up on their death bed. Who's lived a fun quote, fun sinful life and says , but I believe in God, okay, come into the kingdom. To me, that seems injust . And it isn't just because who wants to be in heaven because we know that person really hasn't had a heart change. But if I truly have been changed by God's love, and I want other people to experience that love. And I see someone who has lived a sinful life, but has an actual encounter with Jesus Christ, you know, three days before he dies and loves him, I'm going to want him to be in the king . You're going to

Speaker 3:

Celebrate, celebrate

Speaker 1:

That. We're going to rejoice together at the mighty God.

Speaker 3:

And, and, and you know, there's, there's a lot in what you just said there. And part of it is that somehow we think, well, this guy got off easy. Cause he got to enjoy things in this life that I didn't. And it's like, there's nothing in this life we can enjoy that can compare it all to even the least to things that are ahead of us, that the happiness of this life is nothing. The misery of this life is actually really nothing to compare to the pain of sin. And that's what motivated Alma . And you know, the sons of Mosiah after their conversion to go out and preach is because they endured what caused them to. They wrote this later. They said just the thoughts of what we saw caused us to tremble and that we didn't want anyone to experience that that was their motivator. Now it's not even just find God. It's like, don't endure this don't risk. What we felt, you know, it's so bad.

Speaker 1:

I think in appealing to men's common sense as these analogies are or appealing to our mind, we're making the assumption that God is kind of a fool in that. Um, someone's gonna sneak by, by saying they believe in Jesus at the end. And God's going to look at them and say, okay, okay, you've confessed him. God knows the hearts of men , the ones going to sneak by, we should be praying with fervency of heart, for the sinners to repent because don't worry. They're not going to sneak into heaven because no unclean thing could be there. Right ?

Speaker 3:

Probably favorite scripture I think is the keeper of the gate is the holy one of Israel. And he employs no,

Speaker 1:

Jesus Christ. He's nobody gets by Jesus and a friend wrote a song about that one brother, Tom Mitchell. Uh, okay. So let's, let's go on with this. Um, the problem is not solved this way. We are really with merit. Some are not worthy to receive. Neither are they prepared to enjoy the reward that others merit and the same great differences exist among those who have not accepted Jesus. Oh, that just was talking about people aren't worthy that have accepted him. If you're going to contrast it with people that haven't, so some are not worthy to receive. Neither are they prepared to enjoy the reward that others merit, what does that mean? Some are not worthy. So now we have to talk about what makes someone worthy. And I don't want to get too deep into it because I want to finish this analogy and see where it leads us. But I do like that thoughts they aren't prepared to enjoy because we know that the book of Mormon does state that if you haven't been clothed with the robe of righteousness, that you'll have a recollection of all of your sins , and you're just going to want the rocks to fall on you because you can't stand to be in the presence of your creator. And so, yeah, you aren't prepared to enjoy that. But the preparation is whether you've been cleansed or not, if you're cleansed, you're gonna , you're going to be there just fine. You're not gonna , um, most noteworthy of all, perhaps some who have professorly accepted him are not sober as some who have failed to accept him. Not , not so worthy. Yeah. Here's a case. It's a true incident. And again, we can't claim that God's not a fool. He sees through the hearts and the actions and the motivations of people. They talk about a young man who , uh, fell in love with a girl in the neighborhood. And he became so enamored with her that he took his young wife and mother of his little boy riding. And they went out on a , on a car ride and they stopped at a lonely place on the road. And he took a shotgun from the weeds where he'd hidden it . And he killed her. Well , that's tragic. He was arrested, tried convicted and sentenced to be hanging after he carried the case through the various courts and exhausted every artifice that money, talent could employ. He sent for the clergy man of the church and confess his crime and accepted Jesus received religious constellation and declared IDI happy. We are asked to believe that the execution are swung him, strangling him, and that he entered into eternal glory. I'm not, we're not asked to accept that at all by the scriptures. Right . Right . And if , if this analogy is appealing to people who say that, I understand that, but as a culture of the church, we've taken that more as just too , we're not just appealing to people that may believe that we've actually integrated , uh, this reward system into our culture. So we have taken more than just trying to make an example , uh, you know, in the story. Yeah. Um, what about the good woman that got killed? She wasn't a member of the church. She never confessed to believe in Christ. And so we're expected to believe her to go to the prison house. No, that's not what the gospel teaches either.

Speaker 3:

I don't know . Um, I know a woman right now, who's in her final weeks of life and you know, she's never had religion of any kind. She's never really known Christ in . Would it be a time to talk to her about it? Yeah. Perhaps, but at the same time, again, the beauty of the book of Mormon is it teaches his blood atones for those who knew no law. And that people in that situation are not automatically sent somewhere else because they weren't baptized here. That's the beauty of this gospel. Again, part of that, which we don't teach is that there's, there's hope still. And that the complete understanding of God is still offered. And then maybe in ways we don't understand

Speaker 1:

And yet, but take, but take a well, so here , here we go. If we were taking this as this rider , just making an example to try to contradict the argument, being made, that you could do that and get saved. That's the one thing, and I accept that and that's a great analogy, but as we re on , that's not what's happening there. We're taking this and now integrating it into a false doctrine. And here it is, it says if judgment were held before that kind of God, we say that God would be not a God of justice. Correct. Um, but then it goes on to say, God has reward for every man proportionate to his works, his merit. There's that word? Merit proportionate is interesting proportionate to his works, his merit, his service, his spiritual development. And he has a punishment for those who are condemned adapted to the degree of moral turpitude for each. And he punishes to reform, not for vengeance. Now, if we're talking about , uh, this place that you go before, final judgment, then I can agree with everything that we're reading here, but that that's also not where the philosophy has gone in our faith culture. And maybe this was taken to a wrong place, but let's read on and see, because we're not rewarded. According proportionate to what we do. And final judgment were rewarded according to the merits of who what's the book of Mormon say, relying, wholly , wholly

Speaker 3:

On the merits of

Speaker 1:

Christ, right? So he goes on to quote Paul here. And this is an interesting scripture core . I'm sure you'll have something on this. Paul says the glory of the celestial is one. The glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, the moon, the stars for one star, different from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. We agree with that only we believe that it's the resurrection of the dead, not the internal judgment, the heavens refute the theologians, travesty, the heavens declare the glory of God. So, so far, if we're talking about resurrection of the dead, this is, this is great. We're not going to talk about predestination and Muhammad ism, but we're going to go down to salvation and reward. Jesus has worked out our salvation in the sense that he has made it possible for us. He made the sacrifice and this is truth. Number three, he lived the perfect life. He presents the divine plan. It's ours to accept and obey, but while he saves us out of love, when it comes to the question of reward, we must work that out. We will get that for which we work for. This has made very clear in the following. Uh , another scripture for other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, every man's work shall be made manifest for the day shall declare it because it shall be revealed by fire. We've read this in first Corinthians, we've taken again a little portion of scripture and made a philosophy out of it, right? Some then may be saved terribly. And as by fire and receive little or no reward, you can't be saved and receive no reward.

Speaker 3:

And , and, and to build on the foundation of Christ is explained in [inaudible] writings, extensively, and concisely that to build on the foundation of Christ means to come to him and then be , you know, through the gate, which is the repentance and baptism. But then to , to walk in Christ to build on that foundation is to be led by his word and his spirit in everything so that it guides all of your actions for, for good. And , and it's like, you know, this building on the foundation of Christ is simply that that ensures that when we stand before Christ, we already know our , we already know our salvation. We already know the conditions and it's not something like, oh, I hope I, I hope I went to church enough or prayed or enough meals or whatever. It's not that,

Speaker 1:

You know, we talked, I think, last episode about the standard and what does it do? You said, what has it done for you as you read, as you realize who God is right here, this is it. It allows me to read something like this. And I think say without being cocky or prideful , um, that it's okay to take any ideas of men that aren't scriptural and set them aside without having that, but sandwich in the end, it says to me, but this is so-and-so with the last name of so-and-so that holds this position in the church. You can't disagree with that. Who do you think you are? Who do you think you are, do you think? And it's not like in a prideful way, but it's like the spiritual , uh, you know, this, this inner voice that's like, you really think you're more righteous than them. Do you think you have better insight than the best of the best, right . Do you think that you , you can interpret scripture better than them? And I

Speaker 3:

It's , like I can read the plain and precious

Speaker 1:

Words. That's what, and that's so that's where it's this freeing thing, like, yes, I reject anything that is not the simple, plain and precious word of the book of Mormon. And that's where people say, well, it's how you interpret scripture. No, because God says, I'm giving this to you. So plainly and so preciously so that you won't stumble that for you to rest it and turn it into something else is on your own head because I can't give it any more plainly. No . And that's, it's not this weird cultural, well , is that really what it meant back then? And it's like, here's the plain word. Exactly. Accept it or reject it. And it's so plain. It is so precious. And it is so meant for you not to stumble that if, and when you reject it, I will wash my, you know, you , I will wash my hands and bring the gospel from you back to the house of Israel. In other words, if this was convoluted and hard to understand God, couldn't righteously, you know, write off the Gentiles and say your time has been fulfilled and I'm going to go to the house of Israel, but it's like, you've rejected plain and simple truth.

Speaker 3:

Yes. You know , I have something here. This is we'll keep going on the track, but I want to interject this. Um, it's just from the BBC, you know, and they've, they've got a news website. Yeah. But they've got a classification of religions and they , they have this little summary of Mormons and what they state , um , the role of Jesus is a Mormons. Believe that Jesus Christ took upon himself, the sins of everyone who ever lived or who will ever live on this earth. Very good. Because Jesus died on the cross and was buried and rose on the third day. Everyone, no matter what their beliefs or righteousness will be resurrected. That's actually a true statement. Everyone becomes resurrected. That's what his blood allowed for. Mormons believe that Jesus Christ has given everyone this gift of resurrection, no matter who they are or how badly they may have behaved. Very good. Everyone gets resurrected. Even the worst of the worst. And then here's the butt sandwich. We need that gong at bond , but not now. Try another one . No , that's we know that. So I think I got one more. Oh, what's it. Boom. That can be the same as now. We come up with a better one, but not, not everyone gets eternal life with God. So everyone gets read as directed. That is only given to those who comply with the conditions that are part of the plan of salvation. The problem with that is the conditions. And this is, this is where it all divides and I won't go into it. But the whole thing is this is their egg saltation. And this is, you know, all these other little levels that you had to work in. And somehow again, it's dividing the works of God in place placing one over another and say, well, these were the most important. When in the end, it's like, all these works of God become the actions of our heart, the outflow of our, of a changed heart. And that's the point is that you're going to be loving. You're going to be giving, you're going to be caring. You're going to , you're going to put others first, you know, to rank any of those is wrong too . But to say that they all become the evidence, they all become the fruit of your life from a changed heart. That's what judgment becomes. Nothing else.

Speaker 1:

That's why the Mormons, as a BBC pointed out, can't teach this truth. That it's a Toman alone. Unfortunately, the restoration doesn't teach it because we've, we haven't, we really haven't come up with any new philosophy that changes the word of God. We've just insured , changed our perception of the word of God, even though it's plain and simple, and that's why it's not taught. But the great thing is we can recover from that and begin to teach what it actually says. Cause we haven't, we haven't furthered doctrine and things that have, that have, you know , made it obsolete like, like the LDS church has,

Speaker 3:

You know, that this is one of these outflows of , uh , Navu that you pointed out earlier is that, you know, yeah, we, we didn't bring polygamy along, but we did keep a lot of other stuff stuffed in our bags. And this, this is one of them. And , and again, this whole idea that our sin is what separates us. The removal of our sin is what returned to us.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Let's , let's, let's finish on and try to get this through this , uh, cause we're going to talk about mansions, but , uh, it right here, I don't like this. It says it is conceited that works have a vital bearing on salvation and acceptance of Jesus has a vital bearing on reward. I don't even, I don't even know how , uh, how that got brought in works have a vital bearing on salvation and acceptance of Jesus has a vital bearing on reward. I feel like that's backwards, but broadly speaking salvation comes by acceptance of Jesus and reward comes according to works by acceptance of Jesus. We mean sincere acceptance and obedience, many profess to him who does not accept him at all. Neither obey him. Agreed others make no outward profession yet really, except some at least of the truths that he taught agreed by and by the hypocrites will be exposed by him . By those who now accept a part will openly accept all. If they follow the leadings of God, otherwise they will go backward and lose dash , which they now have. That's that's true. This intermingling of the truth with fallacy is the most dangerous thing because on one hand, there's this truth. And then all of a sudden it's, but we're rewarded above and beyond. And that's just, it gets convoluted in your mind. You're trying to reconcile a bunch of things. Let's go onto this. This, this is the probably the most interesting and easily understood. I think fallacy of it building our mansions. It becomes the utmost importance that we shall begin now to build wisely and well that our works may stand. The test mentioned above and release. We received the highest reward, whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and do with them. I would like to human to a wise man, which built his house upon a rock in my father's house are many mansions. If it were not. So I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you. So the first one was Matthew. The second one was John, how easy it is to build a philosophy. When you pluck pluck, pluck scriptures and make them fit your narrative, that isn't , um , that isn't scriptural. We do not presume that those mansions will be like rows upon rows of tenements each exactly like its neighbor and with no individuality, but each will express perfectly the individuality of its occupant. Can I, can I ask a question here? Why do we presume that? Why do we presume each one is going to have the personality of its occupant? It says, I do not presume that those mansions will be like rows upon rows of tenements each exactly like it's neighbor number one. That's I don't think that's what that scripture was referring to. It was , uh , a Hebrew thing for how they built their house and they all live together. But number, but even if that wasn't the case, I would presume that based on the book of Mormon, in a sense, we are building our own mansions on hi Oliver, Wendell Holmes, strolling along the seashore, picked up the cast off shell of a chamber Nautilus holding it in his hand. He said year after year behold, the silent toil that spread this lustrous coil still as the spiral grew, he left the past years dwelling for the new stole with soft step, the shining Archway through built up the idle door, stretched in his last phone home and knew the old no more. Then the pullet turns upon himself with introspective gaze continues build the more stately mansions. Oh my soul. As the swift seasons roll leave the low vaulted past each new temple nobler than the last shut the from heaven with a dome, more vast till the art length to vow at length art free leaving nine outgrown shell by lives on resting . See the eternal judgment is not a popular theme in polite society has been tabooed yet. It is not such a terrible theme accepting to the unprepared. It is not presented to frighten in it. I reveal the greatness, love mercy justice of our God, who is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. I don't even know how to reconcile the truth. We are. We are rewarded based on the merits of Christ, not on our own merits and this, this is the exact opposite.

Speaker 3:

Exactly. Yeah. It's it's sometimes it's like, man, it's just words of man words and men were demand . And it's like, I don't know if there's even a response to a lot of it. It's, it's easier just to read the words of Christ and say, no, this is what it says. You know, the, the one scripture in the book of Mormon that like I've mentioned can be taken out of context is where we're saved by Christ after all we can do. And like somehow this has worked into the minds of the restoration that after all we can do is our works and all these other things. But now he was simply, he went on to talk about the law of Moses and how we have to keep the law of Moses because of the command that was the after all they can do. But every writer, states, we are saved by his merits and not our own. That is clear that it's, it's by all of his work for us on our behalf to reconcile us to eternity , um , and all this other kind of stuff. It's just kinda , I just kind want to whistle, you know,

Speaker 1:

Well, we didn't get, as far as I wanted on the Toma , we're gonna look at, I think w no redemption in the tone and , and we'll get into the scriptures basically today. I just read from some doctrine and you'll see this among other writings, too . This was just one we can without belaboring the point, the fact that the class, the Mormons can't teach this because they've changed and they they've had extra , um, revelations and things. They can't go back on or their foundation will fall, but we've just misconstrued and, and misinterpreted, plain and simple things is so we have all the hope in the world to return to the book of Mormon, what it says and , um, and come to know God as he is, and, and watch our church culture change. That's the hope. And so it's not saying the restoration can't teach these, it's just that we don't and we need to, and that's, that's simply what we're saying. This is not a knock on Mr. Albert, a Smith or anything else. Uh, although it may have seemed to be, and it's really, it's not at all, it's this, and you know what, I bet not speaking for him, but he's probably like, yeah, guys, you know, I , I guess I, I K maybe this was wrong as a church, or certainly they know truth now. And , um, is this just , I think this can come across as , um , putting down or being negative and it's like, you can't correct the ship without figuring out why the ship went astray, but, but please let's always remind each other. We're doing this, not to put down men understanding that all of us are seeking should be seeking truth. And it's just not okay to keep , um, going along with things that are, that are not scriptural, but are the teachings of men. And that doesn't mean the man is bad or has a , a bad place in heaven or less mentioned in mine . We're all going to be together. If we were striving to find Jesus, which I assume these , these people are where Corey , you and I have plenty of our own students to deal with. So this isn't lifting us up. We're just trying to define the truth and not allow ourselves to avoid things that are touchy subjects and be held captive as our, as our listener , I wrote to be labeled heretics or, or to be coerced by evil spirits that, that walk out of classes and cause contention, when we try to seek out the simple truth of the scripture.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Amen. And you know, on the flip side of all this, it's exciting to consider that because this is going to be the standard, this book of Mormon, what that looks like in the hearts of people that are going to hear this for the first time, and they're going to be converted to God. You know, it's like, there's, there's a brand new day coming where , where the darkness is lifted and these people, you know, they're, they're going to be coming to Christ and they're going to be walking each other home. And I got that in early , but they're , but they're going to know this truth. And it's like, it's a beautiful day ahead. Yeah. And it doesn't end with us, I guess

Speaker 1:

That's what I'm saying. We'll pick up next time with works and the Toma. And that's where the plan of salvation is. Um , I doubt we'll go as many weeks as we did on the first one, but I think there's more to say on this. I think there

Speaker 3:

Is . So thank you, brother. Appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

[inaudible] .