On this episode of Change Makers, learn about accessibility! In sports and video games! Hear from two incredible change makers, doing incredible things all to make the world a more accessible place. After that, we’ll check in and learn about the recent Connect the Dots, powered by PNC Foundation event, and what to expect for the next one.
On this Podcast (In Order of Appearance)
Additional Links
On this episode of Change Makers, learn about accessibility! In sports and video games! Hear from two incredible change makers, doing incredible things all to make the world a more accessible place. After that, we’ll check in and learn about the recent Connect the Dots, powered by PNC Foundation event, and what to expect for the next one.
On this Podcast (In Order of Appearance)
Additional Links
<silence> Welcome to Change Makers , a podcast from APH. We're talking to people from around the world who are creating positive change in the lives of people who are blind or have low vision. Here's your host.
Sara Brown:Hello and welcome to Change Makers . I'm APH's Public Relations Manager, Sara Brown . And on today's episode, we are talking all about accessibility. I'll be talking to two incredible change makers , doing incredible things to make the world a more accessible place. After that, we'll check in and learn about the recent Connect the Dots, powered by PNC Foundation event, and what you can expect from the next one up. First, April is a big month in sports, and I have APH's engagement specialist, Amanda Dennis here to talk more about the ways to make sports accessible and about her time participating in the Paralympics as a member of Team USA . Hi, Amanda, and welcome to Change Makers .
Amanda Dennis:Thank you for having me today.
Sara Brown:Okay, up first, do you just mind to share with our listeners what it is that you do at APH?
Amanda Dennis:Sure. So , uh, I , at APH I'm actually the Engagement Specialist, so it kind of is a all encompassing role in some aspects. So the first thing that I do is obviously engage with people. So , um, one initiative that we're trying to do this year is contact different nonprofits around the country to learn about what they do and how APH can help them or collaborate with 'em , or try to, you know, solve any sort of , uh, problems that they're having within their organization, whether it's through assistive technology products or , uh, through some of our support services that we have via the Connect Center. Uh, we just wanna be kind of the helping hand there to, to help 'em out. Uh, the next thing that I do is a PH webinars. So we have a lot of partner showcases , uh, where we showcase not just our partners, but their products that they have and or the services that they have. Um, so we host those webinars, you know, at least once a month. And , uh, I'm the hostess on the webinars, so I help set those up, start talking to people about the , uh, things that they wanna present about. And yeah. And then , uh, one of the last things that I do, or it's kind of a two in one , is , uh, I help with some of our international sales. So there are some places that can't purchase products, and , uh, I would be kind of the person to go to, to figure out , uh, can you sell this product to me? And if so, how? And then , uh, for some of our conference goers, I am one of the people who works at the booth at conferences, so I engage with people there , uh, talk to them, show them some of our products, whether they're new or old , popular , uh, some things that they should learn about or even if they're topics of the conference that they're going to. So that's a little bit about what I do.
Sara Brown:Awesome. So, so much, so much. It takes so many people doing so many important things at APH. So it's always nice to talk and learn, learn a little bit more. And would you like to share a little bit about your background outside of APH?
Amanda Dennis:Sure. Uh, so yeah, so I am a three-time Paralympian, a two-time Paralympic medalist. We got a bronze in Rio 2016, and a silver medal in Tokyo in 2020 at the Paralympic Games in the sport of goalball . Um, I've been playing goalball for, yeah, the majority of my life. We found out that it was like 23 years already that I've been playing. Uh, so I'm not a young hat <laugh> or a new hat, but I'm a little bit of an old hat , uh, that's not really super old. Um, and , uh, just a little bit about my educational background. I went to the University of Georgia. I got my bachelor's degree in sport management. Uh, I got my master's in business administration. And , uh, I'm a Georgia native, so I come from the great city of Peachtree City, which has a ton of golf carts, <laugh> . So that's, that's about it. <laugh>.
Sara Brown:So this podcast is all about focusing on accessibility. So growing up we're , when you were, when you're doing, when you were doing tasks, were they made accessible or did you just have to make due ?
Amanda Dennis:It really depends on what it was. Um, so in my household, we, we were expected to do everything that everybody else did. So at home, there was no accessibility. We would say it's just like a, "you're gonna learn how to, you know, do it your own way." Uh, in schools, I had accessibility. Whether I wanted to use it when I was younger was questionable, just because like, you know, you're, you're the only kid and , uh, who may have a visual impairment in your district or in your school or whatever. And then you have these random people coming in who are TVI's, you know, but you don't know. I, I don't think that I figured out that I couldn't see until I was like eight, eight years old, third grade or something like that. 'cause people used to ask me questions like, "oh, why, why do you have this?" "Or Why do you have that?" And I'd be like, "I don't know," <laugh> , um, "why do these teachers come in?" "Oh, I have no idea." Um, so, and then at one point it really occurred to me because I got , uh, it was a slant board at the time. It was like something that , uh, brings the paper closer to your face and nobody else had it. And I was using it and I stopped using it at one point because the other kids in my class were not having that either, and I didn't wanna be different. Um, and then I realized, man, that was actually really helpful. I really couldn't see that. And I was like, okay, I really can't see <laugh>. Um, so , uh, for the most part, I, I did use accessibility growing up I had A-CCTV, and back then it was one of those, like big ones that you had to roll on the carts that had like, those big tube screens from the, the computers , um, like large print books, magnifiers, monoculars like telescopes , uh, and stuff like that. So, you know, non-tech wise , a lot of really cool stuff for accessibility in schools , at least.
Sara Brown:Now do you have?... You have a passion about making sports accessible? Did you have any APH products that you have in mind to help make sports and activities? Being, being mobile, being active, accessible?
Amanda Dennis:So sports wise , I think it's really cool to look at Sports Courts, and that's basically a tactile version of different courts that you could see, whether it's in adaptive PE for students, it's really great to introduce them to the sport because they can explore the actual court before they go into a PE lessons with their other peers. Um, they could see, for example, what a soccer field is like , uh, how you would move on the soccer field because there's like a little magnetic characters you can move around. So you can show them like, this is how you would move on this, or this is what the goal of the game is. Um, so that's a really good one as far as , uh, adaptive PE uh, orientation and mobility wise , I feel like it's endless. You know, there's so many products that could help with that. Um, you just really have to find out what suits the student or like what suits a person to be mobile, what their actual goal is, whether they're a cane user, somebody with low vision who might not have depth perception. You just really have to find out the needs before you can suggest like what would be helpful for them.
Sara Brown:And okay, if they don't have any... If somebody does not have access to APH products, do you have any simple ways that, you know, just with items typically found in a home or at a school that , um, a an adult or an educator can make, you know, a sport accessible?
Amanda Dennis:Yeah, so , uh, there's a couple of different ways. Uh, obviously you could always have help with another student, but for example, for balls , uh, if you were playing soccer, you could put a plastic grocery bag over the ball, so it makes it audible. So as it's moving along the floor, somebody who can't see can hear the ball. Another thing that's really helpful for people who have low vision , uh, in ball sports, like we'll use soccer or basketball or even volleyball, is to either have an enlarged ball , uh, which we did have in PE when I was younger, or something that's really bright. So like, think about a highlighter color, a highlighter, yellow, you could tape a ball , uh, highlighter yellow, you could paint a ball. And then that makes it a little bit more accessible for a student who has contrast or low vision issues.
Sara Brown:Such simple ways, you know, I always think about , um, just listening to you speak, did you see that video? Um, I don't know , maybe a year or two ago. It went viral and it was , um, a child that I guess I'm gonna assume is blind or low vision, and he made, I don't know, a half court shot. And I guess there was an adult on the chair. She was banging on the rim and he hid it. He, he , it was nothing but net then <laugh> , the whole <laugh> , the whole gym went wild for it. And it was the precious thing because when they told him that he made it, he, you know, he started going insane too. But it was just a really cool moment. But, you know, they, they were banging on the rim . He heard it and he went for it. So that was, you know, and then ,
Amanda Dennis:Yeah, he made it. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> . That's awesome. Yeah. In terms of like in your household though, it's really cool that you can also make things , uh, tactile. So something that we've done in our household, my husband has less vision than I do. Uh, and we use Bump Dots, which are like kind of a way to show somebody where something is, whether it's a button that they need to press or , uh, we use like really , uh, like yellow dots, like right below a button if it's touchscreen. So he knows like, if I go forward with my finger, I can hit whatever that touchscreen button is. And that's really, really helpful, especially in the kitchen. Uh , like you can have somebody who's close to you come over and put larger prints , um, labels on measuring cups. That could be really helpful. So there's so many different things that you can also do in your household to make your house more accessible if you can't see either.
Sara Brown:Wow, that's so true. And just look around. There's, there's always ways to do that. We're continuing the , the , the , the aspect of accessibility, but we're gonna talk a little bit more about sports. Sure . Now, the next few months are huge for sports fans. We've got the Masters, PGA and the 2024 Olympics in Paris, France. So there's a lot going on for all the sports enthusiasts. And you're a three time Paralympian in goal ball . Do you mind explain what goal ball is and how did you get into it? You've been playing for 23 years, so obviously you're hooked.
Amanda Dennis:<laugh>. Yeah, I'm hooked for the better or worse, you know , um, Goalball's a three on three sport for athletes who have blindness or visual impairments. Uh, it's played on a 9x18 meter volleyball size court. So the same volleyball court you would see regularly. Um, there's different positions on the court, a left wing , a right wing , and a center. All of the positions are tactile. So every single line you would see visually on a goal ball court can be felt by the athletes. Uh, there's a ball, it's about 1.25 kilograms, so around like three ish pounds. Uh, and it has bells inside of it, about three bells embedded inside of the ball. I wanna say, I might be wrong, so don't, you know, count me on that. But it's, it's two or three bells inside of the ball. Um, and all of the athletes who play goalball are blindfolded because all of the athletes are on varying visual levels. So you might have somebody who can't see anything, and you might have somebody who can see 10%, which is like 20 over 200. So to make the game equal, everybody's blindfolded. And the point of the game is that you have three defenders and three throwers on each side. There's one ball, and the ball goes around, I would say 40 to 60 miles an hour on the elite level. Definitely a lot slower on the recreational level. Um, but you are throwing this ball across the court and trying to get it past the defenders. On the other side, the defenders are diving on the floor just by hearing the ball and then blocking it. And it's kind of a volley, so like you throw it, the other team defends and or doesn't, and then you get up, you throw it, and the other team's defending. So like at no point are you removing your eye shades, you're just doing all of this blindfolded. But , um, it's a very fast-paced sport. Very, very hard. I've suggested already that we could do like an a PH league at some point. Maybe we could do an Annual Meeting like the, the sighted people with versus the blind people or whatever. Our staff , um, it , it's been a very popular <laugh> a very popular option so far. So, but I don't think we're gonna do it. Um, and then kind of how I got involved in Goalball was I, when I was younger, probably around like four or five years old , um, I started doing soccer and I did it because , uh, my brother did it. And I was like, "oh, I wanna do it too." Like, "why wouldn't I get to do this if he does?" And so I went out to the soccer field and I realized, like, I was like, man, I really don't like this 'cause I'm not really, I didn't see the ball, I didn't really feel involved in the game, and I didn't know why. So I was like, "I, I was like, I'm never, I'm never doing sports game . Like I'm so done with this <laugh> ." Um, and uh, it wasn't until I was seven, I went to sports education camp in Atlanta, hosted by BlazeSports America, which is the Paralympic legacy left behind by the 1996 games in Atlanta. Um, they did a sports camp for athletes who had visual impairment. So whether you're blind or visually impaired, they hosted this camp and they had every sport imaginable, basically. And they also had Paralympic athletes who had competed in a prior Paralympic game . So Athens 2004 or Sydney 2000. And those athletes were not just like sharing their stories with you about how they got started and what their journey has been, but they were also teaching you the sport too. And so, you know, I, I left the camp not being like, "oh, I can't do soccer anymore 'cause , you know, I can't see the ball or whatever. "Um , I, I left it being like, "okay, if I wanted to play soccer, this is what I could do." I definitely still didn't wanna do soccer, but I did wanna do Goalball because it was fun. Um, a lot of my friends were doing it. And it was a sport where you're finally on an equal playing field your whole life. You're at a point where somebody can do something because they can see, or somebody has an advantage because of their vision, and you just, you're not able to keep up with that. And in Goalball you don't have that barrier. And not only that, but you can have an inclusive environment because people who can see can also play Goalball because everybody's blindfolded. So your friends from school could also do it. So it was a really cool way to , um, do something with my friends and then also just have a good time and be active and stay fit.
Sara Brown:Wow, that's so cool. And, you know, that does equal the, that does level the playing field. You're right. Now, when you're playing goalball , are you a defender or are you , what'd you say a defender or a thrower? Are you a thrower?
Amanda Dennis:You can be both. Every , everybody essentially. Everybody's both. So like you, you're , you're gonna have to block anyways 'cause there's only three positions and you have your nine meter wide net behind you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And so you , you as a team have to work together to block this ball. And like, if you block it, you could choose to throw it or you could just give it to somebody else. Personally, I like the throwing aspect of the game . So like, I would keep the ball
Sara Brown:<laugh> . Now, I've been researching it. You throw it. Well , uh, if you throw it almost like a, is it like a bowling ball? You throw it like that? Is it un underhanded or is it overhanded or is there any just however you want?
Amanda Dennis:So it's mainly underhanded. Some players do like a 360 spinning where they throw before, like spin around before they throw it. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , which helps create momentum. Some people just like regularly throw it like a bowling ball would be, obviously there's no holes in it. So it's, it's harder to grip the ball when you have smaller hands. Um, but yeah, essentially you would, you would throw it like that. And then , uh, generally you have a six meter area to throw from. So from the goal line to where you have to release, there's like a line, we call it the high ball line, but essentially it's six meters from where the goal was. You have to have the ball touch the ground once before that line, or you get a penalty and you have to block the whole court yourself. So, okay.
Sara Brown:Now, in , in these people, yourself included, you're these participants, these players, you're throwing the ball at, you said 40 to 60 miles an hour.
Amanda Dennis:Yeah. So the men six , like probably more around 60. It's really fast. Yeah. And then the girls probably more on the 45 ish range. I know .
Sara Brown:So you all are cooking on those courts . <laugh> . Okay. Now your , your , your goalball career has, has taken you everywhere. I'm gonna assume based on your history, you've been a member of team USA , right?
Amanda Dennis:Yeah. So I made the national team , uh, in 2011. My first Paralympics was in 2012 in London, which was really cool. I was only 18. So , um, it was really young to make our team one of the youngest athletes that got chosen for that, just in general of our team history. Um, but yeah, it's, it's taken me a lot of places. The only continent I haven't gone to so far is Africa. I would love to go to Egypt or you know, generally it would be Egypt. 'cause that's one of the more , um, well, well-known teams that travel in Africa. We, we were supposed to maybe have a worlds there in 2022. And I was so hyped about going there for worlds and then they chose somewhere else and I was like, ah , okay. So still waiting to go to Africa, <laugh>. Yeah. Um, but yeah, mostly a lot of places
Sara Brown:Was going to the Paralympics your goal? Once you've got into Goalball and you're like, "this is my sport, this is my thing, I wanna be a Paralympian." Was that like next on your list or did it just take you there?
Amanda Dennis:Um, so yeah, I, I kind of always had the dream like, "yeah, I wanna be on team USA one day." I remember when I was like 10 or something, I got the national, the women's national team coaches email address. And I wrote him this email being like, yeah, I wanna be on the, the team one day, you know , uh, whatever I gotta do <laugh> . And I got this really nice email back that was like, yeah, that's really sweet that you wanna be on a team one day. I used to have a little while to go, like, you know, just keep working <laugh> . And I was just like, alright , cool. So that's kind of what I did. But yeah, I always had the dream, like, I wanna wear the stars and stripes, represent the US and, and go to Paralympic games, but not that, just like, be the best, you know, in the world.
Sara Brown:Wow. So cool. Now talk about some of your past experiences during your Paralympics. Do you have any really cool stories that you can share or cool people you've met?
Amanda Dennis:Oof , cool stories? Um, I don't know. I don't know about any cool stories like while I've been playing, but some cool experiences have been , uh, you know, after every Paralympic Games we get invited to the White House. So we are able to meet all of the presidents. So in 2000 , uh, 12 and 16 we met Obama, which was cool. Uh, and then in 2020 we met Joe Biden. So that was also very cool. Um, but also two very different experiences. And you know, we didn't know, 'cause the Paralympics actually got pushed back from 2020 to 2021. We didn't know, like, oh, are we gonna meet Trump? Is he even gonna invite us to the White House? You know, so we were, we were on , I guess like we didn't have any expectations for what it might hold. And then it got postponed and we were like, okay, so the president we were gonna meet, we're gonna meet the other one. So <laugh> , um, it was very cool, just going either way and they always set up something really cool , uh, like parties and , um, meet and greets and cool events when we go to dc . So I guess that's like something awesome. Uh, and then just in general, I think , uh, cool takeaways from the experience are meeting people from other countries. Like, I would've never met my husband without goalball 'cause he's from Germany, <laugh>. Um , so it's been awesome for me. Uh, I'm also kind of one of the more outgoing people on our team, so I talk to everybody and I know everybody. So , uh, I have met some really great friends in goalball from other countries that, you know, we, we talk often. They're very good friends . Uh , so, you know, you never know after some time what kind of experiences the sport will bring to you. But for me it's been a really positive experience of community, family, friends , uh, obviously competition and really great times, and then also not so great times. But you learn a lot about who you are and your, your character kind of develops and you can take it with you to different places in your life, whether it's in a , in a workplace, learning how to work with different people , um, or in another environment. So
Sara Brown:Now another big aspect of the Paralympics and in your, and your just competitions overall are the medals. So when you're , what are your , any of your Paralympic medals, are they, are they brailed, are they tactile?
Amanda Dennis:What's that ? Yeah, so, so all of them are, so one of the cooler ones that we have, I guess as Rio , uh, in the sense that that medal is very accessible in terms of, you know, what medal you had. So if you were an athlete who was visually impaired and you got multiple medals, if you were say a swimmer and you did different events and you medaled in all of them, you'd get this medal. And the medal makes noise when you shake it. So it does have braille, but it also makes noise when you shake it. And basically the louder the metal is when you shake it, the, you know, the higher metal color you got. So if you got like a really soft shake, then it was bronze. If it was a little bit louder, it was silver. And if it was like the loudest , it was gold. And so I think in terms of that, it was the most accessible. We haven't had a medal that was like that since. But , um, yeah, Tokyo's was, was nice. It also had braille on it. I think that they try to put braille on all of the medals.
Sara Brown:That's super cool. That's a really cool aspect to have on there.
Amanda Dennis:Yeah, it was, it was really interesting 'cause we heard about it before getting there and I was like, "I wanna see one of these medals ," so somebody else's medal . I, I must have jinxed us. 'cause I saw this other girl's medal and I was like touching it and shaking it, and then we got the same color <laugh> . And so I was like, "ah, man, we didn't get gold, but I guess this bronze one is okay too." <laugh>,
Sara Brown:That's still, it's super cool in my book. So I, I think it's awesome. <laugh> , would you like to leave us with some parting words maybe to , um, your younger self or to anybody that might be, you know, eight, nine that is blind or low vision, that is interested in doing sports, but you know, is a little afraid?
Amanda Dennis:Yeah, sure. Um, for that I can tell you that, you know, there's a couple of things. Even if you're kind of tentative about joining or you're unsure about what will happen next, always think about the opportunity something can bring you. Always think about going into it with an open mind, jumping in head first because, you know, a little 5-year-old me never wanted to touch a, you know, a sports ball again or be involved in sports. And here I am and it's brought so many cool things into my life , uh, friends, family , uh, community , uh, the sense of hard work. And these things are transferable to you and school or in your career, or even if you wanted to make a career out of sports, like I can tell you, you can do that with goalball and , um, it's a really cool thing to get involved in. So whether it's goalball or another blind sport, you know, just jump in head first . Don't, don't be scared. It's an opportunity that's that awaits.
Sara Brown:All right , Amanda , thank you so much for talking to me about accessibility in the Paralympics. It's been wonderful to hear from you.
Amanda Dennis:Yeah , thanks for having me.
Sara Brown:I've put links in the show notes about Sports Courts and other various APH products that can help make sports accessible as well as the many articles written about Amanda Dennis. Now we're looking at accessible video games . The video game industry generates billions of dollars worldwide. As it moved from a niche to mainstream. Increasing accessibility has only allowed it to gain a new legion of fans. Now I'm talking to one person who is heavily involved in this industry, all from a accessibility point of view. Next we're talking to professional accessibility consultant in the video game industry. Brandon Cole. Hi Brandon, and welcome to Change Makers .
Brandon Cole:Well, thank you very much. It's glad it's good to be here.
Sara Brown:Okay, so this podcast is about accessibility and earlier we talked about, or earlier I talked about how to make sports accessible and, and now we're gonna go to video games. So would you like to introduce yourself for our listeners and let them know what it is that you do?
Brandon Cole:Yeah, so my name is Brian Cole . I am a professional video game accessibility consultant, and I've worked on , uh, very, very popular franchises such as the Last Of Us franchise and more recently the Forza Motorsport, Franchise Mortal Kombat. And , uh, more to come <laugh>.
Sara Brown:So cool, so cool <laugh>. Alright , now first off, how did you even get into this? How did you get into this world of video games ?
Brandon Cole:Well, that's a, that's a broad question because , uh, it depends on whether the question is more focused on how I became a gamer in the first place, or how I got into the actual, the industry. Um, that's because they're , they're very different answers. So, so , uh, I actually became a gamer , uh, from a very young age because of a prank that was played on me by my older brother. This is a hundred percent true. I became a gamer because one day when I was about six years old , uh, my brother said, "let's play Mario Brothers. Uh, and I was like, well, you know, my, my 6-year-old self, you know, was like, "well, I, you know, the word 'video' is in is in video , you know, is in video games . So how could I possibly play it? It's a video game that doesn't make any sense." You know, I understood enough to know that video meant something you had , you had to see to , to, you know, interact with. Um, you know, that's what I thought at , at the time anyway. And , uh, somehow I don't remember exactly what he used to convince me, but he convinced me to do it. And , uh, we head into the room where our Nintendo is located. He fires up Super Mario Bros. He hands me a controller, and we start the game. And before you know it, somehow I'm collecting coins, I'm breaking bricks, I'm defeating enemies, I'm saving the princess . I can't believe it. Somehow I beat the entire game . And that is when my brother revealed the punchline, which was that he had handed me the unplugged second player controller <laugh> , while he played the entire game . Uh, so yeah, I cannot believe to this day, I can't believe we went through the whole game this way, <laugh> like this had to be a multi-hour joke. Yeah. But no, we did it. Uh, so at the time I remember feeling pretty crushed by this because I had felt the the rush of, you know, doing something awesome, you know, completing a game. I, I felt that rush for a second, you know, when , when I believed it was me. And , uh, you know, I, you know, I , I felt bad about not being , not having done that. But at the same time, I made a bit of a vow, and at the time, the vow was pretty simple. It was just, "I'm going to beat one game without his help. That's all I'm going to." That's , that's all the vow was. But that is what encouraged me to start messing around with games. You know, I tried different games, some successfully, some not so successfully at all. Um, but I started learning things like how sound could be used to identify patterns, you know, how sound could be used to, to play the game, to, to learn what did what and what's what, you know, button did what , um, what every sound meant , uh, mattered. You know, I learned things like that. And eventually I did beat a game without his help. And , uh, I just never looked back. I just kept going from there. Um, so that's, that's how I became a gamer. Um, so how I got into the industry was a also a fun story. Um , <laugh> . So I have always been in my head an accessibility consultant. And when I say that, I mean, every time that someone else played a game that I couldn't play, then I just listened to them play. I always thought about how it could be made accessible. I always said things like, "man, I could play this game if only it had this or this or this." And my fiance , uh, pointed out to me, this was , this is actually several, many, many years ago, back in about 2005 or so, she said to me, "you know, you have these ideas. You should blog, you should write these down. There's no, there's no resource on the internet for these ideas right now. You should blog.' Now, my response, if any, if anyone listening is a, you know, a 90s kid like me , uh, I had a live journal back then, <laugh> , for those of you who know what Live Journal is, it was like the , uh, the beginning of, of popular, you know, blogging , um, that kind of, that kind of idea. And I was terrible about it. I, I couldn't keep up with it. I , I barely wrote an it , it was just barely, was barely a thing at all. But I had one. And , uh, so, you know, I was like, how do you expect me to blog about video games? But I can't keep up with a live journal? And, you know, she convinced me to do it anyway. And she helped me build a website and , uh, and yeah, that was that. So we, I started blogging about video games and that blog got the attention of some , uh, game developers that were doing a panel at the Game Developers conference in 2014. And so I , it was, it was a long time. I had to do a lot of blogs. I mean, at first I was bad at keeping up with it, but I did write enough that it got, you know, noticed from the , from the right people. So I was invited to GDC in 2014, the Game Developers Conference, and I was invited just as the blind gamer perspective. This was way before I had a career in this. Um, so I was just the blind gamer perspective talking on a panel about mobile games and their accessibility back then. And I did really well at that panel. Uh , that panel got me introduced to Ian Hamilton, who is the co-founder of the Game Accessibility Conference. Um, and he basically enjoyed my speech enough that he invited me to be one of the first speakers at the very first game accessibility conference in 2017. And that is where I got connected with the company Naughty Dog , who is the creators , uh, who are the creators of the Last of Us franchise. And , uh, the rest is history <laugh> . Uh, we connected and they, they ended up hiring me to work on their game. And , uh, well , uh, I did a good , a good enough job at that, I guess. And , uh, now I'm in this , uh, professionally full time , pretty much.
Sara Brown:What a wild ride. It started out, you know , your brother, you know, tricking you and what sibling doesn't do that. And then you trying to keep your, your live diary going and, you know, so good you finally got the hang of that and started writing enough to get noticed and invited and now look at where you are . That is amazing.
Brandon Cole:Yeah, it's been a pretty crazy ride, but I've, I really, really enjoyed myself.
Sara Brown:Quite the , as quite the, quite the ride. Now, so you caught the , after you caught the eye of the developers, what happened then? What , like what did they do just sort of send you, or have you play video games, I guess, before they were released to look at the accessibility?
Brandon Cole:Well , um, so with the last of us , uh, we started with the Last of Us two , so this is a little bit confusing, but the Last of Us , uh, is a franchise that has existed since 2013. Um, the Last of Us 2 came out in 2020. And the Last of Us first part, one remastered came out later, and I also worked on that. So the first Last of Us game I worked on was two, then I worked on one <laugh>. So anyway , um, but that game, the way that game worked as far as how I worked on it, was I was flown out to the studio , um, several times over the course of three years. And the way those visits would work is typically we would look at what was there so far, brainstorm on what could be there, how accessibility could work for the blind in those situations. Um , and sometimes things would happen live while I was still there. Sometimes the developers would be working on the game, you know, while I was there and implementing new things, you know, right then and there and allowing me to try them and play test them there. So I play tested the game several times over the course of three years while also providing the kind of the design fundamentals for accessibility, for blind accessibility to the, the team. Um, and there's, there's probably, there's very few members of the team that I didn't work with at some point. You know, I worked with audio, I worked with design, I worked with, you know, the, the UI people, the User Interface people and all, all all those , all that stuff. So that's typically how it went with that game. Uh, but every, every project is , is a little bit different. Um , there is one game , uh, for Motorsport that I'm working on now. I'm still working on it today. And , um, that game is, is different because I work on that game pretty much , uh, more often than I did on the last was part two or part one because I had a, basically, I kind of have an ongoing contract. I'm set up to work on that game and look at the, the latest changes of that game every month. And , uh, it's, it's pretty cool because it allows me to continue to ensure that game is already launched. So, so most of the time I work on games before they come out, but, but for a Motorsport is already out. But I can continue to improve the accessibility and help the team improve the accessibility of the game even after launch, which is pretty cool. Um, so , uh, it , it's , it's different for every project, but that is essentially how it works is , you know , I play games before they come out. I help the team design and implement accessibility features to the blind. And , uh, then the game comes out and everyone's very happy. <laugh>
Sara Brown:<laugh> , They're very happy. Well, that's awesome. Now I do have some more questions about this. Sure . So, I'm old enough to remember when Mortal Kombat, the very, very, very, very, very first Mortal Kombat came out. Yes. Yes . So to see how it's progressed, I've always, and honestly, I was probably way too young to be playing it. And I remember <laugh> ,
Brandon Cole:So was I, so was I, I
Sara Brown:Remember when it came out , I remember the uproar that it was because honestly, you know, that might have been the first video game like that. And I'm talking the very first Mortal Kombat. Um, it was just...times were different way back then. And the , I remember the uproar. I , I remember being young enough to know I shouldn't be playing this, but played it anyway. And then I remember the uproar just, you know, the news and the, the quote unquote "violence" and all that stuff. But , um, so it's always fun to see, you know, where we are with Mortal Kombat. 'cause I remember Scorpion and Subzero and Kitana and Sonia Blade, so it's taking me back <laugh> . But so when you do the accessibility for, so like video game like that, when a person's playing it that is blind or low vision, is it, is there , um, something that's telling you, you know, what they're doing so you can press the buttons on the controller to do the next move?
Brandon Cole:There are quite a few things that the new Mortal Kombat is doing in terms of accessibility . So first of all , uh, you have fully narrated menus for the entire game, which is no , no. Mortal Kombat before , uh, this one has had, has had, had had that, you know, ability in it. So there are, there , a couple of previous games have had really minor narration. So like , they had the, the first kind of the top level menus narrated, actually only Mortal M 11 had that. Um, so the top level menus were narrated, but nothing else was. So you could , you could narrate the menu , menu, the options menu, the , the menu that leads you into story mode, but not the menu that that follows that one, you know, just kind of the, the , the base menus, the , the very, very main menus. Uh, this one is everything. So everything that could possibly be narrated is narrated. That includes all options menus, all tutorials. So if you want to go do your, your , uh, individual character tutorials for every character you can , um, you can do the, the move list is entirely narrated as well. So when you're browsing, when you're, when you're trying to figure out a character for the first time, go to practice mode, for instance, and you press pause, you go down to the move list, all of their moves are now narrated in the game. Now I remember, you know, I , I , I played the early Mortal Kombats as well. I grew up on Mortal Kombat as well. So I remember going to the internet and trying to find lists of moves because that's the only way we blind people could do it. If we wanted to learn , um, uh, a character, if we wanted to learn their moves, we'd have to find lists on the internet of all their combos and all their moves. No longer, no, no . Now you can read those from within the game because the whole game is narrated. Um, not only that, not only that, but there are audio cues during gameplay , uh, that signifies , uh, specific things. For instance, there's an audio cue that tells you when you're in the corner or when your opponent is in the corner, there's an audio cue that , uh, you can turn on that tells you the distance between you and your opponent. So you can get an idea of distance, of player distance. Uh, there's audio cues for different types of hits, whether a hit is a high hit , uh, overhead hit, a medium hit or a low hit. Uh, there's an audio cue when you're blocking or your opponent's blocking, and when you're ducking and your opponent's ducking, and all these things are positional as well. So you can tell , uh, where you are versus where your opponent is based on the position of the audio as well. So just a bunch of audio cues like that. Um, and also, this is the big one, I think, and for a lot of people, I think this is a really big deal. Mortal Kombat One contains audio description as well. So the story mode of the game is fully audio described . Uh, so you can, you can enjoy it at the same level as a sighted player would, but it goes beyond that. For the first time ever, the, the very over the top Fatalities of Mortal Kombat are audio described. So yes, <laugh> , when you or your opponent, when you or your opponent performs a fatality, you will get a full audio description while it's happening of what is happening. So , which is pretty great <laugh>.
Sara Brown:Yeah, and I'm just, I, I remember those fatalities in the finishing moves. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And you get a nice audio description with that.
Brandon Cole:Yes, you do now. Yep , you do now.
Sara Brown:Oh my gosh. Okay. Now that sounds really cool. <laugh>, but again , it's pretty cool. I was a big fan and I still am a big fan of Mortal Kombat , but wow. Yeah ,
Brandon Cole:It's pretty cool.
Sara Brown:When you're doing like race car driving games too , is there, I'm gonna assume it's, there's a , a chime or something that tells you if you're veering off the road?
Brandon Cole:Yes, exactly. So Forza Motorsport , is the racing game that I worked on. And there are several audio cues that help you with that. So there's audio cues for , uh, when you're nearing the edge of the track. So, you know, basically the distance between your car and either edge of the track, the audio cue increases in speed and pitch as you get closer and closer to the edge on either side. So it's positional, of course, so you know, if it's left or right side. And , uh, the speed and pitch increases as you get closer to the , the edge. And it , it becomes a solid note as you are right on the edge of the track. Um, and there's a sound indicate if you go even further off the track <laugh> . So , so you'll know. But also there's other things too. There's, there's breaking assists, so you know when to slow down for a turn. There is turn cues that tell you what, what turns are coming up, you know, like if it's a, if it's a sharp left or a a a , you know, kind of a very small left turn or a right turn , uh, those are identified by numbers. So for instance, a "left six" is a very, very short , um, turn. You kind of, you barely have to turn it all, whereas the left one is incredibly sharp. Um, and you know, there, there's, there's kind of a turn countdown as well, so you know, when the turn is exactly coming up and there's turn gate cues. So, you know, when you're at the beginning of a turn , the apex of a turn and the, and the end of a turn where you're kind of cruising out of the turn. Um , and there's also a steering guide where basically as a turn is happening, the sound of your car's engine will pan left and right, depending on which way you have to turn to kind of give you a more , um, direct idea of how much you're , you're turning and , and when you should turn. So all those things combine together. Um, and some of course, full narration as well. 'cause you know, I I I don't do games that don't have full narration. Ha ha ha no full narration. Uh, those things altogether combine to make a driving experience accessible. And I, I, I guarantee you there are people , uh, already that are so good at for motorsport that they are placing in races against other sighted people. So it is not, it , it is absolutely a, a wonderful experience that , uh, the blind can now enjoy , um, racing against even sighted people.
Sara Brown:And this segues into my next question is what would you say to someone who might not think , um, an individual who is blind or low vision... They don't, you know, don't play video games. The accessibility aspect is not important? Because I've looked at your YouTube page and I think I've seen a few comments, somebody on your Motorsports review, um, somebody talking about or saying how it's not, it's n ot, it's not good or it's not, it's not helpful or it's not needed.
Brandon Cole:Yeah, I mean, this, this is, this, this comes with the territory. Um, it's, it's, it's, I'm used to it by now, <laugh>. So the thing is, like, there , there are people that will never fully understand the impact that these features have on the lives of gamers who thought that they couldn't play games like this before. Um, you know, creating a, you know, working on force of Motorsport helping to make a fully simulation racing game accessible to the blind is, is a , is a benchmark moment. Like, it's, it's, it's a benchmark moment for gaming in general. Uh, whether people believe it or not, <laugh>, you know , uh, the blind community has been pretty much in full support of my work , uh, for the most part. Um, although, you know, there, there are dissenters among them too. But , um, there not, there aren't many , uh, most of 'em understand , uh, what this means and what this is. And most of 'em have a , a very deep appreciation for the fact that they can now enjoy AAA simulation racing game with hundreds of vehicles. And I'm , uh, that's, that's a 100% true hundreds of vehicles. Um, uh, just like any, any sighted person would enjoy it as well. And , uh, so I, I kind of take those comments in stride when, when those come up, when someone says, "oh, this is dumb." "This, this shouldn't be in the game," you're taking away the , the most ridiculous one is like, you're taking away things that we could have had, like, obviously they must have gotten rid of something else because to add this, this silly accessibility stuff that's not even close to true <laugh> . Like, that's , that's never true. Uh, at least in my experience, it's never true. Um, but , uh, you know, people think what they will , um, you know, they don't have to use these features. Uh, they're for us, they're for the blind community, and , uh, most of the blind community is very happy that they're, they exist and that they're in, because without them, they wouldn't be playing this game as simple as that. And now they can, now they have that option. And that's, that's more powerful to me than any of those comments.
Sara Brown:Wow. For your vi for video games, are more video games implementing accessibility into the final product?
Brandon Cole:Yes. Yes. I'm, I'm so happy to say that accessibility is on the uprise. Uh, there are more and more games every year that are having , uh, implementing accessibility features, not just for the blind, but for all sorts of disability types. Uh, one very recent example would be Marvel's Spider-Man 2 , um, which I am currently obsessed with , uh, because it's really, really cool <laugh> . Um, and the greatest thing about this is, and I, I'm actually happy to say this, is that I didn't work on that game. Um, you know, there was, there was a time not even that long ago where the most accessible games for the blind were games that I had worked on, or at least in the, in the AAA space, in the, in the console gaming space were games that I'd worked on. Um, but that's no longer the case. I mean, that's still kind of the case because the most accessible games are still the games that I've worked on <laugh> . But anyway, that's just me , uh, tooting my own horn, I guess. But anyway , um, but Spide-Man two is, is a really great example of the progress accessibility has made because , uh, they patched in post-launch a full screen reader, which works with every single aspect of the game, which is really, really tremendous and accessibility features for the blind , uh, to help them play the game. It's not perfect. There are still some problem areas there, but it is much more accessible than it used to be , um, and much more accessible than the previous Spider-Man games. And , uh, you know , it's, it's , it's , it's really, really great. And that's just, you know , it is just a shining example of the progress we're making. Um, you know, more and more games are adding accessibility features, like I said, and I can only see that trend continuing to go up because the, we're we're demonstrating to the world and to other game developers who haven't done this yet, that it can be done. And the more that demonstration happens, the more people see that, that we can do this, that what we, what we're, you know, what we're asking for is not unreasonable. Um, the more it's happening. And I really, really, I have , I have high hopes for the future of, of games, lemme tell you that.
Sara Brown:Okay. And then my next question is, what would you say to someone who, who is listening, who loves video games and can think of and is thinking of their own ways to make video games more accessible, but doesn't know where to begin or where to reach out or what to do? So how to sort of get out there and get noticed?
Brandon Cole:Yeah, I would say get your voice out there. There's a lot more ways now to communicate with developers in more of a direct fashion. Uh, many developers these days have accessibility emails , uh, that they respond to. Um, and that's, that's another, another proof of concept of, of accessibility being the right way to , to go and that it , that it is happening. Uh, many developers these days have , uh, accessibility emails. You can directly provide feedback to there, but also just in general, get your voice out there , uh, be on social media. Uh , maybe start a blog like I did. You know, you never know if you have these ideas. Um, you , they just have to be heard by the right people. And , uh, the key thing is to do this without also getting overly angry about these things. So like, you don't want, you don't , you wanna approach these things, you know, you know, "it's, it's, you guys are terrible because your video game isn't accessible." That's not really the approach. The approach is more like, "you know, should be more like," "you know, okay, this game, I'm unable to play this game, but if this game had these things, you know, here's, here's what I would need to play this game. Just kind of put your ideas out there in the universe and you never know. They might get noticed by the right people, and you might end up , uh, working on a game one of these days.
Sara Brown:This is so cool talking to you, Brandon . Did you, did you, have you gone to college? Did you go to college and get a degree in, in math or stem or any sort of that field to do this?
Brandon Cole:To be honest, no, I did not. Uh, I'm just, I'm just a lifelong gamer who mm-Hmm. <affirmative> found a, found a passion for, for this and , uh, knew from the moment that I was called into the studio for the last first part two , that this is what I wanted to do for my career. And I pursued it. I pursued it. Doggedly <laugh> ever since then. Wow . So ,
Sara Brown:So cool. Um, before I let you go, is there anything else you would like to say about accessibility in video games, about your life experience, or anything to anyone out there listening?
Brandon Cole:Um , well, yeah. Um , first of all, I just wanna say , uh, if you are one of those people that's on the fence about video games , uh, right now , uh, you can do it. There are games you can play, and I would be happy to direct you to some, <laugh>. So get ahold of me , uh, reach out. I, I am happy to discuss this with people , uh, pretty much at every turn. Um , I , I , I love the idea of getting people into this, this , uh, this concept of video games, especially if they're not currently gamers. Um, also , uh, a little bit of shameless promotion. I do have a book coming out sometime this year. Um, it is primarily, you know, a book that is for game developers , uh, kind of meant to be a resource for them, to give them an idea of how to make their, their different types of mechanics and, and different types of games, more accessible blind. But I kind of encourage everyone to read it because it does give a decent idea of what to expect in the, in the video game space and the , the kinds of things that I will pursue as I continue to work on video games , um, to make them accessible. It gives them an idea of where my mind is at , um, in terms of how games could be made accessible to blind people. So, you know, it could be interesting for everyone else to read as well. Um, in any case , uh, you know, to those who want to work on these things, like I do, get your voices out there to those that might be on the fence about gaming, let me know. I got you. You can find me at SuperBlindMan pretty much anywhere. Uh, Twitter , uh, Mastodon , um, pretty much everywhere. I'm SuperBlindMan, so just look for me. YouTube, Twitch, I do stream gameplay as well. Uh, you mentioned my YouTube before. I, you know, I have plenty of archive videos there. Um, I'll be streaming today, in fact, so, you know, tune in today. Oh, this is , as we record this, of course, but I'm probably streaming on the day it comes out too. Who knows? <laugh>.
Sara Brown:Oh my goodness. Brandon, thank you so much for coming on Change Makers today. It's been lovely talking to you and hearing, hearing about your story and everything you do.
Brandon Cole:Thanks for having me. It's been, it's been wonderful.
Sara Brown:If you want more information about Brandon Cole, I've put links to his website and YouTube page in the show notes. Up next, we're checking in with APH's, Erin Sigmund. To learn more about the next Connect the Dots, powered by PNC Foundation event. Hello, Erin and welcome to Change Makers .
Erin Sigmund:Hi Sara. Thanks so much for having me.
Sara Brown:Great. Well, would you like to introduce yourself and let our listeners know who you are? I know you do it on every podcast, but in case they missed it, let us know who you are .
Erin Sigmund:Absolutely. My name is Erin Sigmund. I'm the community relations and policy advisor here at a PH and part of my job is making sure that a PH is well connected to our Louisville community. One way that we do that is through our Connect the Dots Community Education series powered by PNC in partnership with the Louisville Free Public Library.
Sara Brown:Alright , and now tell us about the most recent event. How was the turnout? What was the theme? To share a little bit about the previous one?
Erin Sigmund:Our last event for April was themed as a sports and physical education. We were quite excited to connect with over 40 folks at the Iroquois Public Library and it was such a beautiful day. So we got outside, we had a physical education obstacle course set out on the library's lawn where students got to participate in activities that may be used to create an accessible physical education class or course, so things like the portable sound source and the reach and mat, all , all sorts of fun activities. Then inside the library building, students got to try their hand at learning the three moves of goal ball , throwing, anticipating, and blocking. They even got a chance to hop on a Zoom call with a Goalball Paralympian and they got to read stories in a gallery walk , uh, written by Deafblind athletes about their athletic accomplishments.
Sara Brown:What's next for Connect the Dots? When's the next event ? What's that theme going to be?
Erin Sigmund:Our next event is on May 11th from 10:00 AM to 3:00 PM in the afternoon. We're partnering up with the Louisville Free Public Library at the Main Library for their how to festivals. So this festival you can come and learn how to do lots of things and APH is sponsoring a How to Count using the Cramer Abacus. So we'll have our large human size abacus there. You can learn to count 0 to 100. And also learn just a little bit more about the tools that some blind or low vision students might use to do math in in the classroom.
Sara Brown:Is there anything else you'd like to share about Connect the Dots?
Erin Sigmund:Not only can you come as a Connect the Dots participant and learn and jump into all of the activities, but if you're local to Louisville and interested in an ongoing monthly volunteer opportunity, we'd love to invite you to come and join us as a volunteer and you can help lead and learn the stations at a Connect the Dots event. If you're interested in volunteering, you can email me at communityrelations@aph.org or at volunteer@aph.org
Sara Brown:And you know, I bet that would be really great for any high schoolers. Do you all take high schoolers?
Erin Sigmund:We do take high schoolers. We even take middle schoolers if they come with a parent or guardian. And especially when we're looking forward to the summer season, come get involved, hang out with us and learn a little bit while you serve the community.
Sara Brown:And I'm sure it's a great way for those high schoolers to get those hours that they need too . So Wonderful. Well, Erin , thank you so much for coming on and talking to me on Changemakers.
Erin Sigmund:Thanks for having me. Always fun.
Sara Brown:Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Change Makers. I hope you have enjoyed this conversation about accessibility and Connect the Dots powered by PNC Foundation. Again, be sure to check the Show Notes. I've put information in there about APH products, Amanda Dennis, Brandon Cole, and Connect the Dots. If you have any questions, feedback, or topic suggestions, I wanna know, send me an email at changemakers@aph.org and as always, be sure to look for ways you can be a change maker this week .