Listening vs. Reading: Is Learning Braille Necessary?

On today’s episode we’re talking about listening vs. reading, Is learning braille necessary? I’m talking to experts in the field and a young adult on their experiences and thoughts on this topic.

On this episode (In order of appearance)

• Narrator
• Sara Brown, APH Public Relations Manager
• Abby Hodge, Braille Instructor Abby Hodge at Charles W. McDowell Center for the Blind
• Krystal Guillory, Teacher of Blind and Visually Impaired Students Lincoln Parish Schools
• Dr. Donna Brostek Lee, University of Kentucky Clinical Associate Professor
• Jessica Minneci, APH Communications Associate

Additional Links 

• Monarch
• Polly
• Chameleon 20
• Mantis Q40
• Charles W. McDowell Center for the Blind
• Lincoln Parish Schools
• Donna Lee at the University of Kentucky College of Education
• APH Blog

Transcript

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Narrator 0:00

<silence> Welcome to Change Makers , a podcast from APH. We're talking to people from around the world who are creating positive change in the lives of people who are blind or have low vision. Here's your host.

Sara Brown 0:14

Hello and welcome to Change Makers . I'm APH's Public Relations Manager, Sara Brown . And on today's episode, we are talking about listening versus reading... is learning braille necessary? I'm talking to experts in the field to get their experiences and thoughts on this topic. We'll also hear from a young adult who is blind and low vision on her experiences of using strictly audio versus reading Braille. On this panel discussion, I have Abby Hodge, Krystal Guillory , and Dr. Donna Lee here to share more. Hello everyone and welcome to Change Makers .

Abby Hodge 0:51

Thank you, Sara. It's awesome to be here.

Krystal Guillory 0:53

Hi Sara.

Dr. Donna Brostek Lee 0:54

Well, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here .

Sara Brown 0:56

First off, can I get everyone just to introduce themselves and let our listeners know what it is that you do?

Abby Hodge 1:03

Well, hi, I am Abby Hodge. I am a vision rehabilitation therapist. I work as the Braille instructor for the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation at the McDowell Center. And , um, I teach adults how to read and write braille. Um, and my , uh, scope of, of teaching is to teach from the ground up. So I teach , uh, braille, cell concepts and , uh, reading and writing skills.

Krystal Guillory 1:35

My name is Krystal Guillory, and I teach blind and visually impaired students in Lincoln Parish School District, which is located in Ruston, Louisiana.

Dr. Donna Brostek Lee 1:44

Uh , my name is Dr. Donna Brostek Lee. I run the Visual impairment program at the University of Kentucky, where we have a teacher preparation program in visual impairment and an orientation and mobility program. I've had the pleasure of running the program at the University of Kentucky for the last 12 years. It's wonderful to get to train teachers and o and m specialists and really see the passion that I have for teaching children who are blind or visually impaired and getting to see that in them. So that's the thing I love most about my job, really seeing the impact that they have on kids.

Sara Brown 2:24

Wonderful. Well , thank you so much. Now, this podcast is, is about listening versus reading. Um, why do you think that there is a conversation about this?

Krystal Guillory 2:34

Oh my goodness. So, I mean, obviously there is a conversation and it's an important conversation. Um, and I think even when in disagreement with others, I'm happy to engage in these discussions. I think they're worthwhile. Sometimes it can get frustrating, but it's definitely well worth it . Um, I think because there's a host of mainstream and other providers now that we just have so much access to so much more content than any , any other time in history. Um , and I think that includes the written and the spoken word, frail print and audio. Um, this is a wonderful thing, <laugh> , but it means that information of all kinds is far more accessible to students who are blind and low vision. But I think specifically when we're discussing braille, there seems to be a misconception that , um, or by some, that students simply learns to read and write braille in isolation. But just as with print, we know that braille facilitates literacy and everyone needs the ability to read and write. I think both written and audio content allow for information access. But in my experience, for a student to compete in terms of equality , um, with their sighted peers, effective , effective communication is key. And written communication is a big part of that.

Sara Brown 3:56

Dr. Lee?

Dr. Donna Brostek Lee 3:58

I think there's a lot of misconceptions about technology. Technology has completely changed the game for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. But with that, people often have the perception that braille is no longer needed, that you can listen to everything that is out there. And that's true, but it's very different when you are talking about a child who does not have literacy they've never read before, versus an adult listening to a podcast or an audio book or so forth. I, my students know I am an avid audio book listener , uh, mainly 'cause I don't have time to read and I love to read. So I find it's a great multitasking. I can listen while I'm driving or washing dishes or doing the laundry, but if you've ever listened to any audio books , I use examples like Harry Potter that have really unique names and places in them. If you don't ever have the opportunity to actually see how those names are spelled or those places, I've often come across the book then, or I'm flipping through and I'm like, oh, that's not what I was expecting, or that's not how I thought that was spelled. So if you don't have that direct interaction with text, you're really losing out. And I have the advantage. I obviously have good literacy. I learned to read and write long time ago, longer than I'd like to admit . And I understand punctuation, I understand sentence structure. These are things you don't get unless you are able to directly interact with the text.

Sara Brown 5:40

Abby?

Abby Hodge 5:42

I think because , um, you know, back when I was a a kid , um, braille was just there. Um, we did some audio, but it wasn't a big thing. And I mean, it was, but I mean, for me, I just needed to read Braille and Braille is literacy. So I think there's a big thing about a big conversation because now so many things are made available in audio format and , um, there's so much stigma around, well, you know , uh, I don't have to read it in Braille, I have an audio format. Well, you know, I think that braille is helpful because what if your audio player doesn't work? Or , um, what if the batteries in your player go dead? Or what if the power goes out and you have no way to access your audio? Braille is always there. It's, and , and I think people don't realize it . I think that people just wanna do audio because sometimes people don't wanna learn braille because it's difficult. But I think if people , um, learn braille and give it a chance, braille is helpful for literacy spelling. Um, if you have punctuation issues, you know, reading and writing that can help with that. And braille just opens up a lot of doors and audio does too, but I'm sorry. Being able to read is just undeniably a a skill. It's a skill that it's needed. And so there's a big conversation around, well, I don't need it 'cause I have audio. Well, that's great, but what if it's not available? And I think that's where braille comes in.

Sara Brown 7:18

Now, do you feel that the learning of braille is on the, on the decline? And if so, what do you think can be done to improve Braille literacy?

Dr. Donna Brostek Lee 7:29

I actually think braille is probably stronger than ever. Our students have more access to braille than they ever have before. Even go back 10 years ago, we just didn't have refreshable braille displays that are out there. So many books and texts weren't in an electronic form. Our students now have the ability to get on the internet, pull up eBooks, pull up all types of printed material that's electronic and have immediate access to it with a refreshable braille display back in the day, the only way to get that was a physical braille book. And if you wanted to read that Harry Potter example, you would need a wagon to pull your Harry Potter book. You definitely couldn't take it on the plane and enjoy it while sitting on the beach in Florida. And I, I don't think they have free matter for the blind for your suitcase with your book that you get to take on the plane with you. Um, but now you can take your refreshable braille display and enjoy that book on the beach. Well , maybe I should argue, maybe you shouldn't take your refreshable braille display on the Sandy Beach. The , the point is there is more access to braille than ever. And I think that's an amazing thing. It really levels the play playing field for kids who are blind when they are able to access the same materials that their cited peers are almost instantaneously.

Sara Brown 8:59

Okay. Krystal, what do you think?

Krystal Guillory 9:01

Okay, so I would say that for literacy, in my opinion, is definitely on the decline. Um, I feel like a lot of people, as I said earlier, don't have the same level of thinking of print versus braille. Um, so I would say that thanks to refreshable braille displays and braille embossers , um, our braille access is more available. But there's this chronic teacher shortage in all professions of teaching. Um, but especially in our field of , um, blindness and in some places there's also high turnover rates. Um, so that diminishes our instructional opportunities. Um, we have, you know, that inequality in the development of a effective implementation in the development and in a student's instructional plan, like teaching the skills and also implementing it into their day, they're still seeing braille as isolation. Um, and then ultimately I think there's a decline because our students desperately need teachers who believe in the use of braille to open those doors of opportunity and access for them. Um, and to have that internal belief in their students' ability to be literate and to lead a rewarding fulfilled life utilizing Braille.

Sara Brown 10:22

Abby, what do you think?

Abby Hodge 10:23

Gosh, that's, that's kind of loaded question. Um, I love braille. I, I , to me, my mantra is, and I need a T-shirt that says this, but I, I say that "Braille changes lives six dots at a time," because braille has six dots, and I think it changes lives. And you and I , I think people say that it's declining because there's so much technology out there. But what they don't understand is there's always someone out there developing a Braille device, whether it be the Polly or a Braille displays , um, or the, the newest one that they've got out right now, which the name is escaping me right now. Um, the BT speak or something like that . There's always somebody developing something for braille, because braille was first. And I hate to think that a skill that was developed over 200 years ago would be declining because of all the technology. I would think that it would make Braille better and more usable. Um, and I, I think that the way we can make Braille literacy it , uh, better is to get it in the hands, under the hands of, of everybody who wants to learn it, whether it be through a refreshable braille display or a hard copy book , or a Braille writer or even a Polly, you know, something that would get , as long as we can put Braille into the hands of anyone who wants to learn it successfully. I don't care how you do it. You know, I just, I think any way that braille can be introduced is good, but I, I hope it's not on the decline. I mean, I've heard that so much and I just say, no, it's not. And because once you learn the skill, you have to use it. And no matter if you have the Braille display hooked to your computer, or, or you read with the , um, the National Library Services ere , uh, braille display that they give out, it doesn't matter if you label, you just need to use it. So it's, the skill is always there. People just, you know, I've , I've seen that people just, they learn it and then they lose it because they don't use it. And so , um, it's only on the decline because people don't use it, in my opinion. And I think I just, I hate to see that and it's such a good skill. And I just, the way that we can do that is just to put it under the hands of people who wanna learn it and keep using it and just meet them where they are in terms of braille, meet them where they are, if they wanna learn it, like I said, in a piece of technology or braille devices, even using it on their iPhone to write , um, messages with the braille screen input. I mean, any way you want to use it, it's there. Like , we just have to keep using it and keep promoting it.

Sara Brown 13:08

And on this braille topic, is there anything else you would like to share or say? Whether it be about listening, braille , um, anything you wanna share?

Krystal Guillory 13:19

So when I think about people who argue listening to audio is efficient for learning , um, I think about, I have a colleague who, example he did before was , um, he wrote out his name. Well, let's say he said his name, he had a audio recording of his name or someone's name, right? And people listened to it and perceived how they thought it would be spelled. And then he connected a braille display to the computer and they were able to read the name and actually check out the spelling of the name and realize , whoa, they were totally off because it kind of sounded the same, right? But with the audio, you did not get the actual spelling of it. So that's always been an example that, you know, I think most people, it makes them see the difference between true bur literacy and just listening. The other things that I see that , um, students , um, and those who are just listeners don't have access to is obviously , um, grammar, spelling, punctuation, formatting, those kind of things, especially. Um, and again, building that written language is essential for completion in school and everyday life. You know,

Sara Brown 14:33

How about you Dr. Lee?

Dr. Donna Brostek Lee 14:36

I think probably one of the mistakes I made early on in my career was underestimating the importance of building the textual perceptual skills. With Braille, it's very easy to get caught up in learning letters and learning words, but our research has shown us that having good hand movements and having good tracking skills are critical to being a good Braille reader. It really comes down to speed, accuracy, ultimately comprehension. And if you can't read at a reasonable rate, your comprehension is severely impacted. I think most of us have had the opportunity to sit with a young reader who is struggling, and it takes them so long to read a sentence that by the time they get to the end of it, they don't even know what they read. It's, it's painful to watch them go through that process. So enabling our young Braille readers to have good had movements and to be efficient readers is really important for them to enjoy what they're reading and really gain literacy.

Sara Brown 15:48

Abby?

Abby Hodge 15:50

I think Braille is here for the taking. It's here for the learning. Uh, Louis Braille wanted to better this world with a code that could be accessed by blind people. And I think that everybody should learn at least the basics and so that they can use it and be independent. Braille ISS literacy, braille is independence. And I just, I hope that anyone who needs to learn braille or is thinking about learning braille, talk to your , um, your, your teacher in your schools or talk to a , um, voc rehab counselor who knows a little bit about braille and they can hook you up to someone who could just talk you through the process and, and give you some tips and tricks about learning braille. And I think that's the first step, is to have a conversation so that Braille does not become one of those skills that is declining because I just, it's a great skill, it changes lives and people just have to give it a chance.

Sara Brown 16:51

Okay. Abby Hodge, Krystal Guillory and Dr. Lee, thank you all so much for coming on Change Makers and talking to me about this really interesting topic that brings out a lot of passion in people.

Abby Hodge 17:02

All right , thanks Sara. Have a good day. It's awesome to be here. Thank you, Sara.

Dr. Donna Brostek Lee 17:06

Thank you very much. It was a pleasure. It's always wonderful to reach out and connect with APH.

Sara Brown 17:14

Now I'm talking to a young adult to get her thoughts and experience on listening versus braille. I have Jessica Minneci here to tell us a little bit more. Hello Jessica, and welcome to Change Makers .

Jessica Minneci 17:27

Hi Sara, thanks so much for having me.

Sara Brown 17:30

So for my first question, I always just like to have our guests , um, introduce themselves and let us know what it is that you do.

Jessica Minneci 17:39

Hi everybody, my name is Jessica Minneci. I'm a communications associate here at APH and I'm in charge of a lot of our blog content.

Sara Brown 17:49

Alright . Right . Well, welcome Jessica, and thanks so much for coming on. Now this podcast is about listening versus reading. And as an individual who is blind or low vision, what do you think about the perspective some may have about this topic?

Jessica Minneci 18:04

I think that it's a very divided debate. Um, listening is convenient and much more , uh, cost effective , I would say, because you would only have to have jaws on your computer <laugh> to uh, listen to what you're doing. Whereas spending a lot of money for a Braille display , um, is sometimes not in the budget. Um, so a lot of , some people do prefer listening. However, I think that braille is literacy. Um, I would not be a successful , um, successful , uh, young adult and working professional without braille. Um, and so that's just my general perspective. Um, I know that a lot of people also consider , um, listening as a great alternative to braille because , um, you know, some students actually don't have teachers of the visually impaired available to teach them braille. And so a lot of people are like, okay, listening, it's just gonna , what I'm gonna have to do because they don't have access to braille. Um, so that's also why a lot of people , um, listen instead of read braille because they don't have the resources. So , um, often the decision is made for them.

Sara Brown 19:17

What are your thoughts? Is learning braille necessary, whether it be just your thoughts or is it from your own personal experience? Is learning braille necessary?

Jessica Minneci 19:26

I personally think that learning braille is necessary. Um, like I said before, braille is literacy, so you can listen to a sentence and hear a period. Um, but you can't really touch that, right? You don't really know what a period looks like, what it feels like. And learning braille is the gateway to understanding those , uh, concepts that you wouldn't otherwise understand. Like if , if you listen, you don't know what a quotation mark feels like either. Um, if you listen , um, you have to really pay attention if you're editing a paper, right? I mean, you have to understand the concept of grammar without touching it, right? Like that's really difficult. Um, so I personally think that , um, braille is, like I said, the gateway to success and to employment. Um, it makes you aware of what you're doing. And I would also say that taking away someone's braille is like taking away your print. I mean, that's how it is. Like braille is is how we learn. It's how we understand what a sentence feels like, what it looks like. Um, I do a lot of editing in my job and I couldn't do that without, without braille in front of me. It's really the gateway to understanding and to comprehension. It takes a long time to hone your braille skills and to hone your listening skills so that you can be successful. But I find that a combination of both really helped me in my academic career. Um, and so I would argue for Braille,

Sara Brown 21:03

No . Have you met anyone that solely relies on audio? Yes. Have you ever met anyone? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . What was that? What were their thoughts?

Jessica Minneci 21:12

Um, well one of my best friends relies solely on audio. And like I was saying before about resources, she didn't have a TBI saying here, you need to learn braille, you know, so she had to do this on her own. So that's why a lot of people , uh, are pro listening because they're like, you can do this on your own, you don't need help. Well, that is true, but you still need, if you listen, you still need to learn how to use a screen reader . Um, you know, my friend who , uh, listens solely with audio, she doesn't use a computer at all. She uses an iPad and an external Bluetooth keyboard for everything. Now granted, she is very successful in what she does. Um, she has , um, two really awesome podcasts. She's an award-winning songwriter, and she's written a lot of books and she also is , um, in the midst of trying to get one of her books published. So, you know, there is success in listening, but , um, I think you should have the option. That's what I mean, Sara. I think the problem here is, is not, is listening better? Is braille better ? The, the issue is kids need to have that option. Um, you know, there are some kids who are low vision and they're, they're like, okay, we're just gonna teach these kiddos large print. But when they do that and the kid loses their vision later in life, they have to learn braille later in life. So , um, my teacher , uh, had a student who had a progressive , uh, eye condition. She was gonna progressively lose her sight. And , um, her parents were like, why are you teaching her braille? And the teacher was like, because she's gonna lose her sight. She needs to know how to reprint and braille in order to be l it . Um, and a lot of , um, people that I know who are employed now read braille. So it, it really is, would you like to take someone's pen and paper away and make them listen or would you like to give them the tools for success is really the option. I mean, think about it, Sara, if you're learning a foreign language , um, reading, writing and listening are the three skills, right? I mean, if you're a listener, you can read it , you can write and you can listen, but you can't authentically read it. You can't authentically touch it. Um, and so braille has made me who I am . Um, I'm a pro braille, I'm really pro braille literacy. And I think that kids need to have the option and then you can have the debate debate whether which one is better because you should be able to experience both, right? The listening side or pro listening , because that's all they had, you know, so that's where the debate is a little bit murky.

Sara Brown 23:57

Very well said, Jessica. Now, what do you think can be done to get people to understand the importance of learning braille? Or what do you think can be done? Just to get, you said a lot about access, you know, people that are pro uh , listening just 'cause they didn't have access or didn't, weren't exposed to braille. So what are your thoughts to get people to understand the importance of learning braille or just to get people the access to braille to, to start that foundation?

Jessica Minneci 24:22

Well, Sara, I think that , um, the biggest , um, I would say , um, the biggest win in our industry right now is the invention of APH is Polly. Because Polly teaches kids how to read and write braille without a TVI being there all the time. Because you have to understand that if a kid is not at a school for the blind , um, they have a TVI in their home district. The TVI has a caseload of like more than 30 plus kids. So the TVI can't be teaching the kid braille every day. And so if you're like piecemeal learning braille, like picture you , you not knowing print and you having to sit in a class all day, that's what kids do who don't know how, who don't know braille. And so if a TVI is is come into the school like twice or three times a week, that's not enough time. I, it took me two whole school years to learn grades one and two of braille. And I had , um, I was lucky I was in a school with a resource room that I could go to every day and, and have a braille lesson. And so having Polly, which , uh, teachers can program and, you know, insert their vocab words or their lessons , um, kids can just sit in the corner of like study hall or wherever they're at during the day, whenever the kids are learning their print letters and just sit there and learn the Polly and play with the Polly. So that is a big win for braille literacy, and it's something that t vs need to be more aware of. The other issue, to be completely honest, Sara, is that there's not enough TBIs , um, to teach braille. And so that's an access issue. Um, I would encourage anybody listening to this podcast, if you are a young, a young person who's looking for a job who hasn't gone to college yet, maybe wants a career change looking to teach , look into being a teacher of the visually impaired because that will improve access. Um , you know, another thing that would , um, teach people about the importance of braille is to just have, like you as a person, Sara, you can see, just blindfold yourself for a day and try and listen to your computer talking to you and try to get your work done. It's not easy. It , you know, people who listen, it takes years of practice for them. It takes years of practice for braille, but with braille you have that literacy option with listening, you don't, that's all you have. So you have to do with what you have. Um, increase awareness of what braille is, blindfold yourself, teach a friend. Show a friend how, what braille looks like. Um, show a student. I , I had friends in my peer group when I was a kid who wanted to learn braille because they're like, this is a way that I can communicate with you, right? And they tried and they gave up <laugh> , you know, so they , um, so it's really important to just show , um, other people why braille is important. I mean, I would, when I was a kid, I used note takers all the time, like a braille note , um, like a braille note apex. And so I didn't, I didn't really use a computer as a kid, so I would, when I had to learn how to listen to things, that was difficult. And so I would always say, oh, just pry this thing outta my cold dead hands because that's what I had. That was braille. Um , and the other things too, Sara, is that like listening to an audio book and reading and braille are two different experiences. If you don't give kids access to one or the other, they can't choose if the option is chosen for them, that's not really fair to the student . The student should be able to choose. And if a student decides, oh, I'm gonna be a , a listener , um, that's okay. Older people who lose their vision have trouble learning braille because your fingertips are very sensitive when you're a child. And so , um, when you're a child, it's easier for you to feel brail, whereas like older adults might have neuropathy in their hands , um, or even if their hands are just, you know, healthy, it , it's hard to teach the foundations of tracking and touching , um, to them. So they might choose to listen, but the whole issue, Sara, is that you should have the choice.

Sara Brown 28:50

And my final question, Jessica, this has been an awesome conversation. Is there anything else you would like to say or share about this topic?

Jessica Minneci 28:58

Yeah, I mean, I would just like to reiterate how important braille was to me as a child. Like, it gave me the ability to sit beside my sighted peers and just be able to read alongside them . You know, like when you are sitting there with your iPhone and voiceovers going off and you're reading like that, you know, you, you have to have that, you have to listen to it. Whereas braille, you, you, you interpret the book or the text that you're reading in your own head when you're a kid reading by yourself, build imagination skills. A narrator is great, but it kind of, when they do the voices, it takes that imagination out for you. It's kind of like here what the characters are like. Um, bra Braille was my gateway to reading. It was my gateway to writing. It was my, it helped me choose my own career path because I'm a writer, that's what I do. And so braille is, is the ability to also explore fictional worlds. It the ability to build your imagination , um, you're able to read a word and sound it out, whereas when you listen, it's done for you. So you, you are in charge of your learning with braille. And that's huge. It's, it empowers you, it gives you that freedom. I could go up to a bookshelf and pick out a Harry Potter book and read it, you know, you can pick out an audiobook and read it too. But like, you know, if a teacher curates your audiobook bookshelf that's chosen for you, right? Um, it's the freedom of going to , um, imagine going to a bookstore Sara, and not having that freedom. Like there's only a certain number of audio books in a bookstore. Um, when I was a kid, I didn't have that freedom. There wasn't Braille everywhere, but the braille I had was precious and I cherished that because it gives you that empowerment. It gives you that freedom. Um, it, you , you should just see the joy of kids reading Braille listening just to me, just feels so forced, like you're forced to do it. Um, braille is, braille is not like that. It's, it's literacy. It's your , it's your key to the world around you .

Sara Brown 31:34

Alright , Jessica, very well said. I appreciate you coming on today and talking to me on Change Makers.

Jessica Minneci 31:40

Thank you so much for having me.

Sara Brown 31:44

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Change Makers. I've put links in the show notes to Polly and other refreshable braille devices for anyone out there wanting a little bit more information. Also, if you have any podcast ideas, or follow up questions to this topic that we just discussed, I wanna know, send me an email at ChangeMakers@aph.org. As always, be sure to look for ways you can be a change maker this week.