Change Makers: A Podcast from APH

How to Make Sure Your Child is Counted in the Census

January 27, 2022 American Printing House Episode 45
Change Makers: A Podcast from APH
How to Make Sure Your Child is Counted in the Census
Show Notes Transcript

On this episode of Change Makers, learn why it’s important your child be counted in the upcoming census. We’ll hear from APH officials and talk to an EOT about the upcoming census.

Participants (In Order of Appearance)

  • Sara Brown, APH Public Relations Manager
  • Craig Meador, Ed.D., APH President
  • Leanne Grillot, APH National Director of Outreach Services
  • Nancy Mothersele, Braille Coordinator, Department of Aging and Disability/Bureau of Education and Services for the Blind
  • Paul Ferrara, APH Communications Accessibility Editor
  • Jenine Stanley, Aira Director of Communications

Additional Links

Jack Fox:

Welcome to Changemakers a podcast from APH. We're talking to people from around the world who are creating positive change in the lives of people who are blind or visually impaired. Here's your host.

Sara Brown:

Hello, and welcome to Changemakers I'm APHS public relations manager, Sara Brown . And today we're talking about why it's important for your child be counted in this census. We'll hear from APH officials and talk to an EOT about the census. After that we'll check in with Partners with Paul up first, we have APH President Craig Meador and National Director of Outreach Services, Leanne Grillot. Hello, Craig, and Leanne , and welcome to Change Makers.

Craig Meador and Leanne Grillot:

Hello to you too , Sarah . Thanks for welcome to be here. Great to be here.

Sara Brown:

Can you tell us what the census is and its purpose? I think most people know it's taking sort of taking count to see if numbers and demographics are growing or decreasing. Is that about right?

Craig Meador:

Yes. Yes. It's all part of it. This all, all stems back and , and lean I'll start and you can fill me in and correct me where I get wrong. It goes back to the original Act. Uh, and when Congress set aside funding for APH , uh, they, they wanted to give dollars. And at that time it was a set amount of dollars, but they wanted also to make sure that these dollars were actually going to the people who needed it. And so therefore it required that any state at that time, it was mostly institutions that served people who were blind that were receiving dollars would in essence, conduct a census that would give us a number of students who were blind or visually impaired within each state or at each institution, which would then , um, um, and this is , uh , has morphed over the years, but basically it has resulted , um , as a , a yearly census, as accounting of the students who qualify for services. And then that relates back to a dollar amount. So the more students, the more dollars a state has access to are more a school to the blind has access to.

Leanne Grillot:

And that's really about it. It used to be just a census whenever. Now it's a census every year, and we recognize that our numbers ebb and flow as well as where they are, where the students are , are located each time. And this is schools for the blind, but now it is your state departments of education. There are rehabilitation facilities and VO rehab centers, and some agencies that are working with students that are actually doing a census.

Sara Brown:

Does the census impact APH?

Craig Meador:

It , yes. Yeah. I mean the , the obvious answer is number one, we have a whole department that has to do this , uh , Cindy Amback, who is census guru, extraordinaire , uh, uh , sets up the census. It does impact APH , uh , to, because it , it lets us know what the, what the needs are, is are our populations trending one way , uh, or another, we , we get some additional information , um, on the census rather than just knowing how many students we get some ages. We also , um, we know how they're functioning are these low vision . People are these people who use braille as a primary reading , um, uh , tool. We know if these are people or students who are functioning , uh , as blind, which could relate to the , uh , CVI population, which is one of our largest group or our students with additional disabilities. And so that helps drive what our trainings are gonna be, what products we need to be developing. Also lets us know where the growth is across the region and also helps us best estimate , um, where the trends are going in the future. And , um , so we're, we're able to draw some real conclusions from that .

Sara Brown:

What census information does APH send to the Department of Education?

Craig Meador:

Um , the only thing that gets reported to the Department of Education gets reported on the annual budget. When I prep a budget every year , uh, a lot of it is driven by census numbers. So , uh , we're always building our budget two years out in advance , uh , as required by the government. So that is sent , um , uh , sent every July, two years in advance. And so we're using numbers that are two years old, but all they're asking for usually on the , the numbers that get reported is we have so many students that and adults that have been identified. And we generally just refer to the, the , the main categories. Are, are they , um, you know, like we talked about just a second ago, are they braille readers? Are they , um, would be considered , um, you know, a large print or if a , if a function as blind. So, and that's all that goes there. You know, the census and , and the Department of Ed. Is , um , um , you know, on the census, we do not collect , uh , we , we don't keep student names. We don't keep , um, we do a , we have were required by law to do a very thorough scrubbing so that there is no , um , uh , violation of the family education rights and privacy act. And , and so the information we have has to be very minimal , um, by law, we, no one should be able to pick up, pick up our census and say, oh, I know which student this is. This is so and so who lives in Des Moines, Iowa. And I, I know what school this kid goes to. And I, I know what his vision condition is. You would never be able to determine that by the amount of information we we keep at at APH. So it's, it's very , uh , purpose-centric. It's , uh, we're , uh , making sure we, we walk that line. We only collect information that we need , um, which is a safety for our students and everyone using census. But it's sometimes , uh , um , it's frustrating to people who are doing research, of course, because they want to be able to identify where these pockets of, of students and adults are and, and that they need more knowledge to help them produce good research. And we cannot be a party to that. So , um, it , you know, it serves our purpose very well that doesn't serve the research community very well, but that's just the way it has to be.

Leanne Grillot:

And I can add to that, not every student with a visual impairment is counted and this census, the parents have to provide permission for it. They have to be located. Sometimes students aren't receiving services and therefore they're not being counted. Sometimes adults are receiving services and they're not counted. So our, our data is only as good as those ex officio trustees are in locating finding, and then gathering that information to get counted. So our numbers, ebb and flow, our hope is, and we know there are other students out there that need to be counted. Our hope is to keep finding them.

Craig Meador:

Yeah. And that , that's a very good point. We, we always, in fact, even on our website, we're saying, you know, you can't take this number as gospel. It's , it's not, we're not claiming accuracy because as lean pointed out, it is dependent on people. Uh , it's depending on permissions from parents and it's dependent on individuals. And, and as , um, we know kids get missed every year. We know there are a lot of adult agencies that don't , uh , access quota. So as a result of that, we know our adult numbers aren't anywhere near accurate. We know that there's a large percentage of students that are served in local public schools that qualify from the services of a teacher of students with visual impairment, but do not qualify for census. Our definition of who qualifies is very different from the definition in public schools and at schools for the blindness to who is eligible to receive services. And this is a big disconnect. Something we'll be addressing in the future at , at , at APH with the , with the help of many minds beyond APH. But this idea of what , um , special ed law says, who gets services and what APH determined back in the forties who gets services are different. They're very different. And I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just saying that they are different. And , uh , those differences have been allowed to exist both by department of ed and by the federal government. And so , um, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just, we need to start looking at, is there a way to possibly align those things better? Uh , the , when I was a teacher out in the field by largest case, was students with low vision. It wasn't students who were braille. And so , um, but when it came census time, you know, I, I , I was probably serving , uh , in central Oregon, I was driving around central Oregon and I was probably serving 24 students. And of those 24 students, I think about 14 , um, qualified for the census. The other 10 did not yet those other and 10 did need services from me in order to be , uh , successful in their classroom settings. So those are the , those that's kind of that difference. We're trying to , uh , begin conversations on and hopefully align those settings.

Sara Brown:

How does the census impact schools that have a child that is visually impaired?

Leanne Grillot:

The schools themselves take some of this, but, but really it's, it's the student that benefits. So every school wants their student to benefit. So it allows their student appropriate access to the educational content and materials. It could be that that student needs a large print book and it comes through the federal quota and they're able to, in essence, purchase it, using those federal dollars. So the census says that student has these federal dollars to use at APH to get that book, or it could be that they need a device to access a regular print books . So maybe they're getting some type of , uh , electro magnetic , um, camera. So a , a common one right now is our MATT Connect. This is a , a camera that allows the student to zoom in on the books and, and see that's a tool that they could use their federal quota of dollars to get. So therein, is the student being successful in reaching their educational materials, which in impacts the school in that they know their student is going to do well, or have the ability to do well , um , with their materials and therefore improve the student, improve the school and, and go from there. So how does the school benefit will they benefit? They know this student has access to their materials right away. And that goes for any type of material that APH produces. Those are materials that are available through this federal quota system for them to be able to get for the students to use. And so it , it could be that the state has organized it so that it going something directly to the student and the student keeps it forever. It could be that the student does not really need the alphabet and braille, past maybe second grade. And so that might be something they borrow. And then it gets shipped back to a , some type of library system that then gets shipped out to a different student in that , uh , state that gets to use it then. So it , the nice thing is that the materials that they're getting , uh , don't have to just sit idly when they're not being used. They can actually move around to different students. And so in the end, the schools are impacted because their students are being successful. So hopefully schools are paying attention. Hopefully schools know many times it's their teacher of students with visual impairments. Who's making sure that this is happening.

Sara Brown:

Why is it important for children to be included in the census?

Leanne Grillot:

Access.

Craig Meador:

Yep.

Leanne Grillot:

Uh , they , they need access to the, the funding to be able to , um, utilize that specific funding. That's not to say that a school district couldn't pay with their general funds or even maybe their IDEA funds to purchase an item from APH. They can, and they do. But the cost of educating students with visual impairments is quite high . It is, it has been determined by me , many different areas, just that sheer cost of educating students who lack the access of vision, where we receive a majority of our education. And so therefore the federal quota offsets the costs that these , uh , entities are, are under taking to educate the students. So we would like the students count it so they can access this funding.

Sara Brown:

The census is currently underway. It started the first Monday in January. So when does the census end and what can parents do to make sure their child is included in the census?

Leanne Grillot:

It's a review you process that happens, but our hard date is March 15th. So that's the date where we , where the, a officio trustees of those students need to have their information in. After that point, there's kind of a cleanup of the data. We can't have one student counted twice, right? So we have to make sure that all the students are counted. And they're only counted once, because we do know that there are students , uh , that are both educated by an agency and educated by a school system. And we need to make sure that the right person is counting that student not being counted twice or not being forgotten. So we help with that. But March 15th. So as a parent or an individual who is concerned that your , uh , student and or child is not being counted, I highly suggest you can go to our website and look up our ex officio trustees under the federal program. And see if your student discounted probably the easiest way is find your teacher of students with visual impairments or your orientation and mobility instructor. They are going to know what the census is. And if the student was counted, as well as if the student meets the definition of being counted for the census to begin with.

Sara Brown:

We've spoken a lot about children, but adults are also important to the census. How do they make an impact?

Leanne Grillot:

They , they are, it's hard to find the adults. So one of the first things you have to keep in mind is a , are they being educated in some way, shape or form? That's not college level. Now you can be both college level and gain education. That's not college level. We can think of people that kind of receive both and adults. We think backward over the last year, did they receive 20 hours of documented instruction and over a 12 week period, any time during that calendar year, that's what we're looking for. The 12 weeks don't have to be consecutive. It could be that you're doing it , um, every two weeks. And then you skip a week , uh , based on adults, their schedules are very different. Many of them are working or working toward a career. Uh, a great way to think , um, about adults is , you know, some of our adults are those that have recently lost their vision. If you have recently lost your vision and you need to learn braille, or even how to use recorded material, or if you've lost some of your vision and you need to use a low vision device, that time that you take to be educated counts, that's not college level material , that's just learning how to live your life. Those are the items that we need to think about. And this includes our students who have more significant cognitive disabilities, who become adults, who are still receiving educational services that are not at a college level. They count .

Sara Brown:

Is there anything else you'd like to add regarding this conversation?

Craig Meador:

You know, I , I, I think the , um , the great thing is we spent a lot of energy trying to identify every qualified person. Because , um , not only from an APH perspective and I , I know we kind of danced around this, but, but kind of spell this out. We get a chunk of money from, from the government every year, and then that money gets divided amongst the states and programs based on the number of students. So if that , uh , for, for arguments, say, say it was $200 a student it's more than that, but we said $200 just for simple. And one program in Connecticut had 10 students, then they would receive $2,000 of credited money, or, you know, we , we basically, it's a credit, it's an APH credit that they could spend at the APH through the APH catalog , uh , store and products. So the money though is fixed. I mean, we get, we get slight increases from the government every year, which we are very thankful for. Um , we would like that number to be more because it's not enough. Um , and so this is the , this is the , uh , the conundrum. We wanna identify everybody that receives services because it's beyond APH. It's important for those students to be counted so they can get the level of access and, and , uh , resources and that they need to be successful. So the big overarching goal, the money is the secondary goal that helps support them in those efforts. The big problem is, is say we, and this , the , if we change the definition of the quota, who, who qualifies, we're gonna add possibly 10,000 people, 20,000 people to our count every year. Our money does not increase by that amount. The money stays the same. And so, whereas students might be , have been receiving $200 per, per identified student. Now that's gonna go down to, maybe they're only getting $140 per identified student. So, you know, our, our hope is in time and through conversations with , uh, the federal government, we can continue to increase those funds. And, and , uh, uh, we have a team that does that. They're , they're led by Paul Schrader, our, our VP of government, community affairs and Washington DC . He has several conversations on a regular basis with , uh , the , the people who make those decisions in , in D.C. And always pleading the case for why we need more funding for this educational program. Um, so it's, it's really , um , it's a , a , a bag of mixed results. We , we need to know those numbers because that gives this bigger voice and helps us meet the needs of students. The more numbers, the less per pupil you get. And so that's kind of the downside of that, but, you know, you have to , um, uh, and it , but it , it all goes back to federal law again, special ed law. The responsibility of these people was never the sole responsibility of APH HPH is an auxiliary service that responsibility as established in 1974 for the nation. And in some states earlier in the sixties, they, they created their own laws to meet the needs of these students and , and adults within their, their areas and their states. Their regions is that that primary responsibility falls on the local education agency, the school district, the educational service district, the state, the state is responsible. They are the primary responsibility, a primary driver of finding funds to support the needs of students. APH H's job is to highlight those students with visual impairment that live within that region saying, oh, don't forget about Tommy over here. And Tommy has unique needs. That's gonna require additional services and additional funding, and we've identified them . We're gonna give you a little money to help out with that, but we're really shining a spotlight on these students so that they will not be forgotten and they will not be overlooked or undercounted. And so I really see that's APHS biggest responsibility is really helping identify the , the needs of, of our students who have very unique , uh, learning needs , uh, in every state.

Leanne Grillot:

I think the most that I can say is if you are a teacher of the visual impaired out there doing this count, thank you. Yes. I know it's labor. I know it's work to gather all of this. If you're a parent, I wanna say, thank you, filling out the permission form and saying, yes, it's okay for my student to be counted. We appreciate it. And then if you're someone who's just interested in learning more contact us, this is an area of need. We still need more to, so join us,

Sara Brown:

Craig and Leanne . Thank you so much for joining me today on Changemakers.

Craig Meador:

Oh, You bet.

Leanne Grillot:

Thank you for having me. Thanks Sara.

Sara Brown:

Up next, we're gonna hear from an EOT. Here to talk from an EOT's perspective about the census is brail department of aging and disability bureau of education and services for the blind Nancy mother seal . Hello, Nancy. And welcome to Changemakers.

Nancy Mothersele:

Hi, Sara. Thank you for inviting me.

Sara Brown:

Now as an EOT. How are you involved in the census?

Nancy Mothersele:

Well, for years , um, I think I'd been an EOT, maybe eight years, nine years. But before that, I was , um, responsible for doing all the quota orders for the previous EOT. So when she , uh, left, they asked me to become the EOT. So I took over , uh, doing census every year. Um, there was an assistant that helped the previous EOT, but I decided that , um, she was kind of overloaded with work, so I would take it on. So every year I go in and update the census, I add the new students that we have that are eligible, remove the ones that are no longer eligible or have moved out of state and make sure that everyone is counted. So , um, by doing that, I'm able to see how many students we have , um, keep, keep an eye on the allocation. And I also do all the ordering. So I know where the funds are going to, and I can track those funds and the items ordered and make sure that they get what they need, the students get what they need.

Sara Brown:

Now I did just speak with APH President, Craig Meador and National Director of Outreach, Leanne Grillot about the census. Overall, can you talk about the importance of the census for your state?

Nancy Mothersele:

Well, for our state, we do have a , um, a budget. Our agency is given a budget by the governor , um, every year and Children's Services. We have several divisions that the budget is split up. We have one Division Children's Services, which I'm a member of, which has all the TVIs, Ed consultants, mobility specialists, technologists, involved in that division. So we receive a budget and by using quota funds of the students that are eligible, it is a huge, huge relief because then we don't, we can take the money from the budget that we're allocated every year from the governor and use that for other items for the kids. So the quota, the quota funds are very important to us, and this way I'm able to supply the , the students with whatever they need, you know , uh , books , um, equipment, educational materials , uh, anything that APH has to offer. And if the student's eligible, I can provide those for the students instead of taking it from our budget and the money can be used in other ways. So that's, it's , it's very, very important to us.

Sara Brown:

And what does your state follow to ensure students are counted in the census?

Nancy Mothersele:

We have a client management system in our agency. So any any person in Connecticut that is legally blind or visually impaired is referred to us. We get a , um, an eye report from the doctor and if they're eligible, they will be added to our client base. So we serve from birth all the way up to adults till they're either their vision changes or they pass away, or they're no longer , um, eligible for our services. So we have a wide range of clients in our agency. So every single student is in my client management system. And we send out an intake form with a letter, explaining exactly what quota funds are and how they're used and how their children can benefit from them. And if they have any questions, they contact me and I'll answer any questions, you know, that they have some parents , uh , have no idea what , um, the American Printing House for the Blind is. I, I educate them about that, but this is how we track all of our students. And once we get the signed form, the consent form, we scan it into the student's files. So when I'm reconciling the census, every year, we have a printout and I can search and find all the students that are eligible and make sure every single one of them has a consent form. And if not, I reach out to the TVIs or to the parents and send them one and ask them to please sign it and explain why and how beneficial it would be for the , for their child. And everything is strictly comp . Um , nobody sees the intake forms except for the person in charge of them. And then the , uh , parental consent forms come right to me, they're scanned into the, the students files automatically, as soon as I get them and then they're destroyed. So that's how we keep track of everyone. And, and it is such a great system, cuz I can look anything up.

Sara Brown:

What are some myths you've heard from parents hesitant to have their child counted?

Nancy Mothersele:

With all the identity theft out there that goes on. Um, some parents are a little bit cautious and a little bit , uh , skeptical about sending any information in, but I assure them in the letter that goes out that it's strictly confidential, that nobody else is going to see it. The information is not going to be sent to APH. The information will be in a database that is secure and that once I get it, it will be destroyed. And there's, there'll only be an electronic form in with their child's file. And that's mainly, that's, that's the one hesitancy that some parents have is they're just afraid that the information will get out about their child. And um, you know, and, and I know have experienced identity theft, but once they're reassured they're more than willing to, to submit the, the form and have their child be counted.

Sara Brown:

And what do you want parents listening to know about the census and why their child should be included?

Nancy Mothersele:

Well, it's just, it's so important that their child's included so they can benefit from all the great products that APH provides. I mean, I have ordered braille books , we've had large print books , I've been able to order a little Braille Buzz , um, you know, any electronic braille device, even , um, you know, we've got the braille devices, the MATT Connects for low vision kids . It's just, there's so many products and if their child isn't part of our census and if they're not registered, then they miss out on a lot of these, these opportunities to enjoy these products. And it's , it's just really, really important because it helps with their education and there's fun stuff too, that we can order for them. I mean, I love the little beginning reader books and things like that. And the parents really, really seem to like it and you know, every year , um, I do write letters to our representatives. We're very lucky that , uh , representative Rosa DeLauro was head of the Appropriations Committee and she's very supportive of APH. I have , um, been in contact with her several times throughout the years. And I'll write a thank you letter to her or to somebody else on the Appropriations Committee. And just to, to let parents know that if they reach out and they let these representatives know and they, you know, talk to their school systems about APH and, and get materials from them, it's, it's so important because it does nothing but benefit their children. And every year when I write the letters , um, to the representatives, couple congressmen, I always include a , a story or a thank you letter that I've gotten either from a student, from a parent just to, just to them what , where the funds are going and what they're used for and how important it is and what a change it's made in, in these children's lives.

Sara Brown:

And is there anything else you'd like to say about the census?

Nancy Mothersele:

It's just it, I , I just think it's so important that , um, people are educated about it. A lot of people don't even know what APH is. They don't know that their children or their students are eligible for funding. And , uh , that would be the most important thing I wanna stress is that it's there and it's something that it , and , you know, not everybody gets to, to have, and it's just so important and it's so beneficial for these kids. And that's really why I , you know, just be counted if they're counted, they're eligible. And the more students that, that we have, the more funding that their state will get or their school system will get. And the more and , and materials the students will be able to enjoy.

Sara Brown:

Thank you so much, Nancy, for joining me today on Change Makers.

Nancy Mothersele:

Well thank you for inviting me, Sara.

Sara Brown:

Now I have a check in with Partners with Paul.

Paul Ferrara:

Thanks, Sara. Welcome back to another edition of Partners with Paul, glad to have with us today. Jenine Stanley, she's the Director of Communications from Aira. Jenine, welcome to the podcast.

Jenine Stanley:

Thank you so much, Paul, happy to be here.

Paul Ferrara:

For those who might not know, can you tell us what Aira is?

Jenine Stanley:

Certainly. Aira is a visual interpreting service that comes to you through a smartphone app. And that means it's a combination of technology and people.

Paul Ferrara:

And how does that work together? Technology and the people?

Jenine Stanley:

Sure. So we have actually a team of professional agents they're called visual interpreters and they do exactly that through the back camera, on your smartphone, iOS or Android. So you can make a call to IRA and you've got , um, people often say "eyes in your pocket."

Paul Ferrara:

And the number of tasks that you can do is just , uh , almost infinite, I guess you would say. So if somebody wants to try it for the first time, what should they do?

Jenine Stanley:

So they can download our app. The app is free and you can try it out. You're going to get a week of extended service when you try it out and you can download it from the apple app store or the Google play store. It's very easy to download and get set up . All you're gonna need is to put your phone number in and then you'll get a four digit code. You can put that in. And then the app is open and ready to go.

Paul Ferrara:

And besides doing your own tasks, of course, there's a list of access partners. Can you talk about what those are?

Jenine Stanley:

Sure. Well, our most basic form of service is a plan that a customer would buy. You'd buy so many minutes per month, but through our access partners, which are major corporations like Starbucks and target, and , uh , there are a number of them throughout actually the world , uh, they actually sponsor your minutes on Aira. And so when you are using their services , uh, they cover the cost and APH is one of those access partners.

Paul Ferrara:

And you guys recorded a podcast, speaking of APH being an access partner, and it was all about the museum. Can you talk to us a little bit about that experience?

Jenine Stanley:

Sure. We recorded the, probably one of our most popular episodes about the APH museum back in, I wanna say may of 20, 21. And we had such a good time, although the museum does have a wonderfully accessible website, we a little more extra detail, which you can get from an IRA agent. And then you can ask that agent. Okay. So about that braille writer, exactly. "What does it mean when it says art deco looking? Cuz I want that particular braille writer from, from that podcast," but it was wonderful because we got the inform from Mike, but we also got it from our agent and we have that podcast in the show notes . So you can take a listen and see what , uh , doing something with an Aira agent is like, especially online.

Paul Ferrara:

And the other great thing is since tours are starting back up in-person, if you are on an in-person tour and want Aira, you can use it there as well. So you can get the experience live in the museum. If you wanna go take a tour that way. So there's multiple ways to experience that.

Jenine Stanley:

Absolutely. And the great thing about doing it when you're live on a tour is you can keep up with your tour group or leave your tour group behind if you want.

Paul Ferrara:

Yeah, absolutely. If you wanted to take one of those , uh , self-guided tours, that's a really great way to do it. Finally, can you tell us any other new things that are going on that you want people to know about?

Jenine Stanley:

Oh, my well, 2022 is gonna be quite a year for us. We be at the CSUN conference, we have two presentations. There. One is on Aira for business because we do work with people on their jobs. And we've got some major companies that we're going to show you use cases about. And then Aira in higher education at the college level, a lot of colleges in universities deploy Aira for their student, but wait, there's more because coming, we hope within the year of 2022, we will have Aira for a desktop. So you won't need your phone anymore. It will be on the PC and Mac and that's gonna be huge. We think.

Paul Ferrara:

That's gonna be interesting as someone who's used to using it on the phone to have it on a computer, it could be really helpful. This has been really good information. Janine definitely appreciate it. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today,

Jenine Stanley:

You are so welcome and we are happy and proud to partner with APH.

Paul Ferrara:

And like Janine said, in the show notes, we have included the link to the YouTube video with that podcast about the museum. We've also included the IRA website where you can get all the information about the service, ask any questions, find out how to contact them and get all the information you need. Thanks for joining us and back to you, Sarah .

Sara Brown:

Thanks so much, Paul, and thank you for joining me today on Change Makers. We've put any links and websites mentioned in the show notes and as always be sure to look for ways you can be a change maker this week,

Speaker 8:

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