
Change Makers: A Podcast from APH
Change Makers: A Podcast from APH
Aging Loved Ones
On this episode, we are getting ready for the holidays and spending time with loved ones. But what do you do when its clear, your loved one is having vision issues? We'll talk about some simple tweaks that can make the holidays accessible to keep those traditions alive. We’ll also discuss how to handle those difficult conversations and what resources are available.
On this podcast
- Jeff Fox, Narrator
- Sara Brown, APH Public Relations Manager
- Melisa Matthews, Digital Content Manager for Family Connect
- Katie Frederick, Digital Content Manager for VisionAware
- Alan Lovell, Information and Referral Services Coordinator
Additional Links
- Emotional Adjustment to Vision Loss: It's A Family Matter - VisionAware
- Reactions to Vision Loss - VisionAware
- What Family Members Need to Know about Vision Loss and Its Impact - VisionAware
- The Getting Started Guide is available in English and Spanish, as an accessible PDF on VisionAware.org, and a hardcopy print booklet we will mail upon request.
- APH also sells Aging and vision Loss: a Handbook for Families, that has useful information.
- I&R Hotline: 1-800-232-5463
Welcome to Change Makers, a podcast from APH. We're talking to people from around the world who are creating positive change in the lives of people who are blind or have low vision. Here's your host.
Sara Brown:Hello and welcome to Change Makers. I'm APHs Public Relations Manager, Sara Brown, and today we're getting ready for the holidays and spending time with loved ones. But what do you do when it's clear your loved one is having vision issues? It's not the end of the world. And some simple tweaks can make the holidays accessible to keep those traditions alive. We'll also discuss how to handle difficult conversations and what resources are available. Up first we have Melisa Matthews here. Melisa is the Digital Content Manager for FamilyConnect, which is a part of the APH ConnectCenter. She's here to talk about keeping traditions alive and how to make those accessible. Hello, Melisa and welcome to Change Makers.
Melisa Matthews:Thank you. I'm so excited to share lots of wonderful ideas this time of year.
Sara Brown:Can you, can you explain your position with FamilyConnect and what it is that you do and the Service FamilyConnect provides?
Melisa Matthews:Absolutely. FamilyConnect. Um, my role is really to help find families and resources and information that will help not only the families, but professionals and students thrive. On our website, you'll find resources such as webinars, blogs, lots of information. So similar to everything that I shared here. There would be a blog or an article written for all these wonderful ideas, and it's just a face that families can come and find connection beyond what they have at their local area. We offer a parent connect, which is an opportunity for parents to join a webinar and share thoughts, concerns, successes in an open and a space environment. So my role is really, I feel, to provide information that can support the family as well as their child, but really empowering parents, um, to know that they're not alone as they raise their child who might be blind or low vision.
Sara Brown:So this podcast is about aging loved ones and we're talking about traditions. Can you talk about some popular holiday traditions that families can continue if there is an individual member who might be blind or low vision?
Melisa Matthews:Absolutely. Um, so I've got six old traditions that I'm sure are carried on from generation to generation. Um, so the first one, a lot of families this time of year we'll bake cookies. Um, it's not only something fun and something messy, um, to get your hands involved in, but it's a great way to share, um, inexpensive gifts with friends and family as well. So some things to consider, um, especially as ovens and other things may become a bit of a challenge, is trying to do some no bake cookies or puppy chow. That's another one that's pretty easy and lots and lots and lots of flavors. So there's like mint or lemon or cookies. And cream also is another fun option. I personally really, really like sugar cookies. You can do lots of fun shapes and I also enjoy the royal icing as another way to provide a texture. I've seen several cookies that you can actually with the royal icing because it does stiffen after you, um, let it dry, you could actually braille the cookies. So that's kind of a, a new and a fun thing to do with baking cookies. Another option, um, as a lot of people will decorate gingerbread houses, then there are a ton of different ways to do gingerbread houses. Um, I know Costco and a couple other places have not only pre-cut, but they're already built for you. Um, so that does help. But again, providing lots of textures using hand on her hand, um, and decorating the sides and the roof of the house before you build it will kind of help so that it doesn't fall down. Um, is another fun activity. This time of year, a lot of families will also do kind of an ugly sweater contest or an evening with ugly sweaters. And I would just encourage families to allow the person, um, who is low vision or losing vision or even the child to explore Joanne's or Michaels with lots of different textures, lots of different fabrics, and allow them to decorate their sweater. There's some really great fabric glue, um, as an option or using Velcro, um, and using hand under hand to kind of help those who are familiar and aware of sewing, just to again, provide that independent but with a little bit of support. Um, so this time of year volunteering is also a great opportunity that a lot of families will take time to set aside to support and help others who are in need. Operation Christmas Child is a great opportunity to, um, encourage your loved one who may be losing their vision or a child to help pick out items to be placed into a shoebox and that gets shipped out as well as possibly reaching out to a school or another organization to adopt a family or a child who would need a little extra this time of year. I know for a lot of kids and some older adults, as they lose their vision, they are concerned that they aren't providing enough back to their own community. And food pantries are a great place to help this time of year simply stocking shelves. I know some also offer delivery services, so decorating a paper bag for an elderly person who is not able to get out of the house, those are all easy, simple ideas to volunteer this time of year. Another big tradition is obviously that big meal that we all gather around for. So providing that recipe in either large print or braille would help make that accessible to your left one as well as possibly writing and permanent marker in larger print on either the measuring spoons or the cups as well as using a food chopper. And there are some amazing starter safety knife kits that are serrated and they're plastic, and they're a great way to start those knife skills, whether you are a young person or an older person who is losing some of their vision and for safety reasons, that's just something to consider. Um, and when it comes to children, allowing that extra chat time for your child to get their hands messy, a great way to help, um, your loved one. Also setting the table is to explain where everything goes, and this could be creating a simple tactile place map where the plate would go, the salad plate, where the water would go, a napkin and the silverware, allowing your child or adult loved one to set the table. Another great tradition this time of year is reading the Night Before Christmas or another special holiday story. So when sharing these stories, it's really important to take the time and allow your child or your loved one to really enjoy the story. And a way that you can do this and make it more accessible is providing some of those items in a realistic form. So for the example of the night before Christmas, maybe you would like to provide some snow or some shaved ice and a bell, maybe a small figurine of a sleigh and some auditory sounds of hooves clamping, and then maybe something cherry flavored, um, to represent the cherry on his nose or potentially a stone or part of a brick that would represent the chimney. This you would present while you were sharing the story with the group and your loved ones, and allow that time for your child or an adult to really enjoy those additional pieces of the story as it's brought to life. So this time of year, as you may be considering some new traditions, here are some things that you can consider adding to this year, a game night. I know as many of us consider purchasing games, um, for the holiday season, a game night is a great opportunity if you can provide them in braille or large print. There's a couple great websites, MaxiAids as well as 64 Ounce has some adapted games such as Apples to Apples, Clue, Exploding Kittens. That's an amazing fun one. Sequence Cards Against Humanity. There's also Monopoly or jumbo Braille, um, playing cards, Checkers and things of that nature. So it's a really fun opportunity to be inclusive and adapt small but important opportunities for your loved ones to participate. And don't forget to bring the snacks to share as you invite everyone over for a fun game night. Another popular one. This time of year as lots of houses get decorated with the lights, and many of them actually connect to local radio stations. So one way you can potentially, um, work with someone who has a house that is connected to a radio, reach out to them and ask them if you're able to kind of walk around the house and map that out for your loved one, allow, um, the opportunity to potentially touch some of the decorations, obviously with the House permission as well. But this would be an opportunity that when a light show is going, you can kind of explain to your loved one what's actually lining up, how are the colors changing as it plays with the music. Another favorite one for us this time of year is to make an ornament. And there are so many ways to use simple things such as mints or pony beads that you can create. Put them within a metal cookie cutter and put them in the oven and they melt to create really amazing fun ornaments. Another opportunity, um, to kind of create different ornaments is with Salto. It's a simple recipe and you roll it out just like cookies, and then you cut them into shapes. And once they cool, they can be painted. So this is a great opportunity to kind of include your loved ones with, um, creating something this season. One of the big popular ones that came out a couple years ago are hot coco bombs. This is the new Crave, and it's so fun to make. So you need simply a mold, um, melting chocolate and whatever you're gonna put inside of the hot coco bomb, that could be cocoa powder, mini marshmallows, mints. You simply melt the chocolate and you can do this in the microwave. And once the mold is, um, you have that poured into the mold, it may get a little bit messy, but using that descriptive language to help your loved one or your child know before it's dripping completely out of the mold and how to turn that, placing that in the fridge, it will harden. Once you pop them out, you can place the top on a plate that you've warmed up in the microwave to kind of allow the edge to melt a little bit, and it becomes the glue for the hot coco. This is always a fun one to create and use on those cold days or the night before, a big celebration. And finally, a new one that we are definitely adding to our list this year is a movie night. So there are amazing audio descriptions through Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Disney, as well as lots of other places that offer audio descriptive movies. So this'll be an amazing opportunity for our family together, create a popcorn bar with all of the fixing and just enjoy a quiet night before a lot of the holiday bustle.
Sara Brown:My last question, is there anything else you would like to say, whether it be about FamilyConnect or holiday traditions this holiday season?
Melisa Matthews:Yeah, absolutely. I think as far as FamilyConnect, I mean, we are continuing to grow and reach families and professionals through social media and stuff, so that's a great, um, space to kind of find us and connect with us. As far as traditions, I think the biggest thing I can tell families is including your child just takes a little extra time and maybe a little creative thinking, but there's no reason and no limitations to your child being a part of all of your traditions that you have. And it's exciting to see them as they take on these traditions and they ask for them year after year. You'll realize the power of taking the time and explaining things pays off in the long run.
Sara Brown:Okay, Melisa, that was awesome. And it just takes a little bit of extra time and it makes all the difference in the world. Thank you so much for joining me today on Change Makers.
Melisa Matthews:You are so welcome. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you again.
Sara Brown:Up next, we have APH's Digital Content Manager for VisionAware, which is also a part of the APH ConnectCenter. Katie Frederick. Hello Katie and welcome to Change Makers.
Katie Frederick:Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here today.
Sara Brown:Can you talk about what Services VisionAware provides?
Katie Frederick:Sure. So VisionAware is a comprehensive website that has really, um, been around for several years now and has been part of the APH ConnectCenter for about the past four to five years. And we have a host of resources on our site. So we have everything from blogs that are written by our volunteer peer advisors to living with vision loss, you know, personal people are, people share their personal stories. We have, um, resources on, you know, diabetes, living with that, managing that. Um, we also have a section on the site that talks about some of the most common eye conditions for people who may be losing their vision. So maybe something like age related macular degeneration or diabetic retinopathy, ret, pigmentosa, those types of things. Um, we have a whole section on the website about your eye condition and, and tips, tips for managing that as well. Among other things, I mean, we could spend a whole, there could be a whole podcast just about VisionAware. Um, we also have on our site, um, another resource that, and I think we're gonna talk about this a little bit later, but it's really great, is our getting started with Low Vision Guide. And this is something that we put out a couple of years ago. It's, it's available on the website as a, as a PDF file. So you can read it, you know, on your computer or your phone or you know, tablet if you wish. Or we also have print copies available at APH that we can ship to you. So if you're interested in a, in a print copy book, we can mail that out as well. And, um, that's just a really comprehensive, very basic, you know, getting started guide for people, for individuals and families that might be facing the vision, um, you know, might be adjusting to vision, vision loss, or vision changes.
Sara Brown:Now, what do you suggest when, what do you suggest one does when they see, when they visit this holiday season and see their aging loved ones? Should they make changes now, or just try to have that sit down with the loved one and have those difficult conversations?
Katie Frederick:I think it really depends on the situation and the, um, you know, the, obviously we want everyone to be, you know, to be, stay safe and live independently in their home as if they can. Um, you know, I think each person handles vision changes or, or losing their vision differently. And so there are some, you know, stages of that process. So it just depends, I think, on, on where the, the person is, you know, kind of in, in their journey. Um, you know, and, and what what the family feels is best. I don't know that there's, there's not, you know, a, a right or wrong answer. I think it just depends on, you know, on the situation at hand. Um, and I, you know, one of the resources that we have here is our, um, information and referral line, which is staffed by two people who are blind as well. And so that's another resource where people can, you know, call in and, and talk to others who are blind or low vision and, you know, get their perspective on, on things as well.
Sara Brown:What are some things you can do if the aging loved one refuses to acknowledge they're having issues? That's a hard, that's so hard for everybody involved.
Katie Frederick:It really is, you know, and I think, um, you know, again, each person, um, comes to terms with, with this in their own way and in their own time. Um, you know, for some people it's, they, you know, they might think, oh my gosh, you know, my my life is, is over. I can't do anything anymore. I'm, I'm helpless. But, you know, one of the things that we offer on VisionAware is a, a list of support groups and resources and just, you know, connecting with others who are in similar situations. Um, we, we recently also posted a, a personal story about someone who is, you know, living with glaucoma. And for them it was, you know, they didn't feel, they felt like they were all alone until they found a support group of, of individuals who were going through the same thing. And they expressed how beneficial it was to them to, you know, make that connection and to meet others who were facing the same challenges that they were. So, um, you know, just when, when people are already, you know, getting out there, getting them connected to services, whether that's through, you know, a state, older individuals who are blind program connected to, um, you know, some of the other great resources that are out there, um, the, you know, Hadley Institute offers some free workshops that people may want to look into as well as, you know, again, the, the story and, and blogs and resources that we have here on, on VisionAware.
Sara Brown:Okay. And how do you, how should one handle it if they refuse to seek assistance? What are some quick and easy ways you can make sure that their home is more accessible?
Katie Frederick:Sure. So in, um, again, and are getting started guide that I referenced earlier, um, one of the sections is about, you know, home modifications. So, um, you know, a big factor, um, can be something as, you know, simple as lighting. Um, you know, maybe it's reducing glare by using adjustable window coverings or, you know, blinds or shades. Um, maybe it's, you know, arranging furniture so that there's, you know, reduced glare on, on the TV or a, or a computer monitor. Um, there's, you know, lots of different, you know, lamps that you can use a gooseneck lamps, um, that, that might need brighter lights. You know, there are also some products, um, APH for example, sells a product called the Color Star, and that is a handheld device that you can hold it up to something and it will tell you what, what colors it sees. Um, so this could be used to help people, you know, recognize clothing or other items in the home. There's all, I mean, there are, there are, you know, things that you can do around, um, stairs and stairways. So making sure that, you know, again, they're well lit. You can, um, you can mark the leading the edge of the first and last steps with, you know, something like bright paint or reflecting tape that would contrast with the step. You can use brightly colored, you know, runners or walking, uh, to mark the walking areas.
Sara Brown:Talk a little bit more about that getting, starting Getting Started Guide you just mentioned. What can you say about that?
Katie Frederick:Yes, so again, this is, this is really, um, a resource that thanks to a, a grant from the Readers Digest Partners for Site Foundation was, um, put together a few years ago prior to, to me joining the team. But it's a great resource, and again, as I, you know, look through it's, it just, you know, is looking through in preparation for the, this podcast, but it just has, you know, really everything from, you know, home modifications to, and in that section, you know, again, covering things like, you know, the lighting and the stairways and tips for the kitchen. Um, it talks about, you know, getting, having that low vision exam, what, what that involves, um, transportation, you know, how do you get around if you've been diagnosed with, with blindness or low vision. Um, and then we also have our, you know, links to our, our vision of our website that I've, you know, again, which is part of the ConnectCenter and just has a lot of, you know, really good information, um, written more from the, from the personal perspective. Um, but again, the, the getting started, um, toolkit or guide is something that we have on the website as a digital PDF file, or it can also be, um, you can also request a copy or copies of the booklet to be, um, sent to you in the mail, and we are happy to do that as well. Um, but it's really great for highlighting just some of those few basic items that you may want to know about around the home as well.
Sara Brown:Okay. And the final question I'd like to ask that I'd just like to ask everybody, is there anything else you would like to say, whether it be about VisionAware services that, um, that are provided or how to handle those difficult conversations with loved ones?
Katie Frederick:Um, I think just, you know, um, giving giving VisionAware.org a, a perusal, um, you know, we have everything. We have a, a wealth of information on the site, um, and we have, you know, things like, you know, some, some articles and resources on, you know, what, what do family members, you know, what do you need to know, um, you know, how can you help people adjusting to vision loss and vision changes? So, um, it, it really is a good resource not only for people who are or maybe experiencing blindness or, or low vision, but also, you know, family members, caregivers, and friends as well. There's so much to cover. Um, you know, there just really are, um, you know, I think when people are, you know, sometimes you're just, it's just overwhelmed and, and unsure where to start. And that's where, you know, using something like the, the ConnectCenter Information Referral Line can come in handy and, and help, you know, really help, um, kind of understand where, you know, where the, where to start. But on VisionAware, we do have a section that says, you know, after the diagnosis and it really, you know, lays out, you know, what to do, you know, what can I do next? Or, you know, how do I, you know, how do I get started? So, um, we have a lot of, a lot of good information that may be very helpful to people. I would also like to mention that the American Printing House for the Blind sells a book, um, that is called The Aging and Vision Loss. It's, it's a handbook for Families, and that is a product that is sold through the American Printing House for the Blind. And we do have some excerpts from that on VisionAware, but the handbook is available for purchase from APH as well, if that may be something that maybe of, of benefit to, to families as they go through the process.
Sara Brown:Okay. Katie, thank you so much for joining me today on Change Makers.
Katie Frederick:Yes, you are welcome. Thank you for having me and letting me talk a little bit about VisionAware.
Sara Brown:Now we have APHs Information and Referral Services Coordinator, Alan Lovell here to talk about the calls that the I&R hotline receives during this time of year for assistance. Hello, Alan, and welcome to Change Makers.
Alan Lovell:Thanks, Sara. Thank you for having me.
Sara Brown:So this part of the podcast is about the I&R hotline, also known as the information and referral hotline. Can you explain what this hotline does and the services it provides?
Alan Lovell:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The Information and Referral hotline is a phone number that has actually been around for, oh gosh, at this point, probably almost 50 years. Uh, initially it was started by the American Foundation for the Blind, and in 2018, APH adopted it among other services that make up the APH ConnectCenter. Um, it is a phone line that people can call to find out answers to questions regarding low vision and blindness, and, uh, perhaps where an individual is in life, um, when they have to experience this for the first time. So if we think about, uh, someone who is losing sight or has traumatically lost sight and new to all this, then they can call us to find out, well, what's next? How do I continue with life?
Sara Brown:Okay. And just off just out of curiosity, what are some of the most common questions or topics discussed on the I&R line?
Alan Lovell:Well, um, we, boy, we get a lot of different calls and questions, uh, you know, so it's difficult to outline them all, but the most common are, uh, calls from folks who are calling for someone like a family member who, as we mentioned earlier, we were talking about someone who's clearly different from the last time you saw them. Maybe the last time you saw'em was the last Christmas. Um, and, and someone is now dealing with low vision. We get folks who are calling for that person. Um, grandma, grandpa, my aunt, my aunt or uncle, whomever it is, they're, they're losing sight. They are in denial. They don't want anybody to help them. They're headstrong. They're, uh, still living in their own home. And I think that they're afraid that if we address the situation, that people are going to perceive them as unable to live independently anymore. And people don't wanna leave their home. Obviously, when you know someone, an elderly person gets macular degeneration, um, it's, it comes on later in life. And unless you've known a blind person or a low vision person, you don't have a frame of reference. So the most common types of calls that we get are those, what do we do? Um, grandma is not that old in all other areas of her life, she's perfectly capable, but she's just struggling to read or she's struggling to, you know, see what she's doing in the kitchen. And I keep using the grandma situation, but it can be anyone. Um, that's the most common type of call that we get. Um, but of course, we provide information, um, from birth throughout the entirety of life. So you might get someone who has visited another, uh, portion of their family, and the situation is a child, a child who's living in a, perhaps a rural area who's educational needs aren't being met. Uh, how do they find resources, um, so that this kid is being taught what he needs to be taught in school, uh, whether the expanded core curriculum is being taught, whether they have a dedicated teacher of the visually impaired, and if they don't, where do they find them, you know? So, uh, you will get all of those questions throughout the holiday season in the remainder of the year. But again, the holidays is when families get together, and if someone hasn't seen another in a long time, it's more obvious to that person. There's been changes since the last time we saw them. Maybe their immediate family doesn't notice because they're with them all the time. Um, maybe someone in the family has a, um, a specific interest, uh, in, in life with a disability, and, uh, has, has the wherewithal to ask the right questions when perhaps a, a closer family member doesn't, doesn't have the words to use or, um, the ability to advocate when they don't know exactly what they're advocating for. So, uh, we are happy to help those folks In all of these situations. Uh, do remember, we, we provide information for the entirety of life birth, uh, through, through the entirety of life
Sara Brown:During the holidays. Do you, does the I&R line notice any uptick during or after the holidays?
Alan Lovell:Yeah, you know, it's so true that it does. Um, and, and it's because, you know, uh, people or families are getting together, right? The kids might be traveling to visit mom or dad or the grandparents, and they hadn't seen them in a while, and suddenly they notice grandma's not seeing so well, uh, you know, that, that grandma hasn't told us that she is struggling to read her mail or can't read the recipe, or she didn't make the mashed potatoes the same way she has all the years before. Uh, that's, we do. We get a lot of people calling out of concern for loved ones at this time of year, um, when they realize things aren't the same. And so, what's next? What do we do? How can this person stay in their home or maintain their independence? Um, people have preconceived notions about low vision or blindness, and initially they might call us with an idea they formed in their own mind about, well, grandma's blind, now she's gotta have to live in a home. And they'll call and ask the question where, uh, what, what nursing homes are available specifically for blind people? And then we'll have to follow up with questions like, well, okay, what's the actual situation? Who are you calling for? What, uh, is going on? And we'll explain to them, blindness doesn't mean that it's the end of life. Um, if a person's lost sight due to some eye disease, the, the eye disease that affects the aging the most is macular degeneration. It's the most common. Um, and we'll talk about what services, hands on services are available to teach someone to adapt to life with low vision or blindness. And it, you know, in every state there are services available. Um, and so we talk to them about where these services are, how to, uh, get ahold of them. But oftentimes in the meantime, we will, um, fill in while they are going through the process of getting registered, uh, talk to them about, you know, what's their current experience with low vision, how are they faring? What, what's their biggest set of needs? And we, uh, can talk to them about quick fixes or quick techniques that suddenly give them back something they, some, some independence they have felt like they have lost. So, um, you know, the directory of services that is a part of the APH ConnectCenter is where we go, uh, to search by someone's location to see, you know, exactly if, if it's rehab services or if they're looking for information on their eye disease or support groups, that's where we can go to find out information, um, that, that we can provide to these individuals or their families. And, and, and also those of us who work in the ConnectCenter are in a position where we can, uh, empathize where we have worked in the field for a long time, we've, uh, built up a knowledge base of the services that are out there, or just the, you know, simple techniques in life that make life possible after blindness. So, um, you know, it's, it's very common to hear from, uh, quite a bit more people this time of the year, as I mentioned.
Sara Brown:And is there anything else you'd like to say about the in R line or its services it provides or just how to handle aging loved ones when you see them this holiday season?
Alan Lovell:Well, yes, if you, uh, experience a loved one who is clearly struggling in life, uh, because of a visual deficit or blindness, um, it is not the end of the world. It is traumatic. There's no question. It is far more traumatic for a person who has been able to see their whole life and lose sight at a midpoint, uh, than someone, let's say, who was born blind. It's a much different experience, but it is not the end of the world. It's just a matter of learning to adapt. There is technology and, um, resources available that there's, there's more available now than there ever has been. And those of us who are low vision or blind, uh, we're still fully thriving, contributing members of society. So we would invite you to call our information and referral services, uh, our hotline, the phone number is(800) 232-5463, but we're just one part of the APH ConnectCenter. You can go to APH ConnectCenter.org, uh, and find our, our web platforms where we curate information on, um, topics specific to adults and seniors or families with children who are low vision and blind or, uh, job and career seekers. There's all sorts of information out there. I mean, if you put in any search, uh, term on our website, you are likely to yield articles that speak to exactly the, the situation that you need information on. Um, but if you call our phone number, we're here Monday through Friday, 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM Eastern, and you know, we've been there. We've, we've worked in the field a long time, and if we don't have an answer for your unique situation, um, by golly, we will find one. That's our job. We'll search outside of the, um, information we've already got and reach out to the, the folks that we work with and know well. Um, it's amazing what networking, um, yields, you know, so much information. Uh, you know, a lot of times I've been surprised that I was actually able to find a resource, uh, in a particularly, you know, a very unique type situation or, uh, individuals who work in a field, uh, blind individuals who are working in a field that nobody ever thought they would be. Um, we never rule anything or anyone out, um, when it comes to unique resources.
Sara Brown:Okay. Alan, thank you so much for joining me today on Change Makers.
Alan Lovell:Thank you for having me, and happy holidays to everyone. I know we're about to it. Hank Thanksgiving this weekend.
Sara Brown:Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Change Makers. I've put links to the APH ConnectCenter, VisionAware, the I&R hotline, as well as FamilyConnect in the show notes. As always, be sure to look for ways you can be a change maker this week.