All About Be My Eyes: Part 1

On this special two-part episode Change Makers, hear from the creator of the innovative app, Be My Eyes. Hear how it originated, early feedback, and what’s next for the groundbreaking app.  

On this episode

• Narrator
• Sara Brown, APH Public Relations Manager
• Hans Jørgen Wiberg, Founder of Be My Eyes

Additional Links

• Be My Eyes Website
• Be My Eyes in the App Store for iPhone
• Be My Eyes in the Google Play Store
• Be My Eyes for Windows

Transcript

Narrator: 0:00

Welcome to Change Makers, a podcast from APH. We're talking to people from around the world who are creating positive change in the lives of people who are blind or have low vision. Here's your host.

Sara Brown: 0:15

Hello and welcome to a special two-part episode of Change Makers. I'm APH's public relations manager, Sara Brown. And on today's episode, I'm talking to the creator of the innovative app, Be My Eyes, to hear how it originated and what's next for this groundbreaking app. I have Hans Jorgen Wiberg here to tell us more. Hi Hannes and welcome to Change Makers.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 0:37

Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here.

Sara Brown: 0:40

Before we get rolling with the questions, do you mind to introduce yourself to our listeners and let them know who you are and you know what it is that you do?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 0:50

Yes, thank you. Yes, my name is Hans Jørgen Wiberg, and I am the founder of Be My Eyes. Um and uh Be My Eyes is an app for blind people, and I am blind myself. I have not been blind all my life, uh, but I have this eye condition called retinitis pigmentosa, uh, which means that uh my eyesight has been more and more narrow. Uh and now I'm 61 years old and uh I am almost uh blind. Uh I cannot read text. I can kind of see uh where the windows are and and and so on, but but not really used the site that I have for for that much. Uh but I'm happy that I can see a little bit. So yeah.

Sara Brown: 1:35

And do you mind just to share a little bit about your childhood with retinitis pigmentosa? I mean, was it something that was discovered when you were younger or you know, as a little kid, or was it something that settled in when you teenage years?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 1:49

Yeah. I was actually 25 when we realized my family and I, that uh that I had this eye disease. Uh I'm born and raised on a farm in Denmark. Uh, and uh I was uh kind of um going back home and uh together with my father, we should kind of run the farm together until I could kind of take over and so on. And then we realized that I had this uh eye disease. Uh and um my grandmother has the same eye condition, but we we didn't really think that that I had that. Uh so so we we knew how the the how it would progress. Um, and we also knew that it was not uh a good idea to kind of try to run a farm when you cannot see too much. Um and so uh so we had to kind of uh I had to change together with my family. We we decided that uh yeah, I should do something else. Um so that yeah, that's uh that's how I ended up with Be My Eyes.

Sara Brown: 2:52

Wow. So you had all that experience leading up to which helped you create Be My Eyes. So talk about what inspired you to create Be My Eyes, or was there a specific moment or experience that sparked that idea?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 3:06

Very much so. Um, and um I um this I think it was uh it was in 2012. Um I was uh at the time working for the Danish Blind Federation uh as a consultant, and um, and one day I met a uh young blind guy and uh he was talking about his uh new iPhone, and uh and he told me, Hey, I can make FaceTime calls to my uh sister when I need um uh someone to see something, and there's no one around. Uh and I'm well that's pretty cool. Um, and then he said, um, but I always have to think about who to call. Um meaning, uh, is my sister at work, or should I call my neighbor, or should I call someone else, or whatever? Um and then I was thinking, oh, maybe we can make a group you can call. Um and I mean, uh, I'm not really a tech person, so I had no idea how to make an app or anything. Um, but I I got back home, um, and then I said to my daughter, um, uh, FaceTime me, uh, and then uh you guide me around our house. Uh and then I closed my eyes, uh, and then I walked out the door, and and she guided me a little to the left and a little to the right, and so on, and all the way around the house. Um, and uh we got uh to the door again, and and uh I said to her, now you have to place my hand on the door handle. And and that moment when when I touched the door handle, uh it it maybe not so super important, but but from for me it is. Um, and I I clearly remember that moment, and I realized, hey, it is actually possible uh to guide another person, even if you're sitting in Kentucky and I'm in Denmark. Um, it is possible to guide with very high precision um uh another uh a blind person. Um and I said, oh, there is something here we need to do something about. Um and uh then uh it's a very long story, but but I I ended up uh uh going to uh something called Startup Weekend here in Denmark, and I presented this idea about having this uh video service uh between blind people and cited volunteers. Um and uh yeah, then I was uh looking for someone to help me get uh get started. Um and that's kind of what I got at the this startup weekend. So yeah.

Sara Brown: 5:42

Oh wow, that's so interesting this to hear that. Whoa, this this can be done. This is possible.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 5:48

It is, yeah.

Sara Brown: 5:49

And that's remarkable.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 5:50

If you are naive enough to believe that it is possible, then sometimes it is possible.

Sara Brown: 5:54

So now before starting, before starting Be My Eyes, you you just said you worked at what, the Danis Association of the Blind. And you said your eye condition became more prevalent as as in your adult in your adult life. So, how does that impact your understanding of accessibility and inclusion?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 6:15

Well, I think it's pretty obvious when when you have the problem yourself, then you get very much aware of uh how many websites are not accessible and uh uh just getting around when you can suddenly not drive anymore and all that. Um, and of course, working for the Danish Blind Federation, that's also kind of a political statement. Um, um, that where you are pushing the local politicians to make uh the um the roads more accessible and and all that. Uh that's part of the job when you are in a federation. You are always kind of campaigning for uh a better solution that are more accessible and and all that. Um so uh that was very much uh part of my job as well. So yeah.

Sara Brown: 7:03

Yeah, I understand. So you know what you know what needs to be done or what's needed, and then you can help make that make that campaign. I understand.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 7:12

Exactly.

Sara Brown: 7:12

Now talk about the challenges you faced personally that you wanted be my eyes to solve for others.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 7:20

Well, it was um it's pretty straightforward. Um now I have a wonderful wife and and and two daughters and so on. So uh basically I did not need that service uh myself that much, but sometimes uh they are out and doing something else, and you are alone, uh, and uh you need to to see something, or you drop something on the floor, you can't find it, and uh uh some super small print and and so on. So um it's just uh nice to have access to to a pair of eyes without having to walk over to your neighbor and knock on the door and say, can you tell me what this is, or something. Uh the fact that you can just pull out your phone and within uh 10 seconds you can have a volunteer looking at something that just makes it super easy and convenient to uh to do those things instead of putting them aside and wait to until someone comes around. Um so it is uh it's just really nice that you have this option where you can get things done when you are at it.

Sara Brown: 8:29

So you know the key word from what you just said is that word access.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 8:35

Absolutely. And also uh independence, um, because um it it's kind of it's a little strange or funny or uh at least interesting, uh, that um you're basically asking another person to help you. But when you do it through an app on your phone, it doesn't feel like asking for help. Uh it it's more like, hey, this app can help me, uh, and then uh yeah, there are some uh real persons in the other end. Um but it doesn't feel like uh go walking over to your neighbor and ask uh him for help or something like that. Also because you know the volunteers they signed up uh and they only take the calls because they are available. So you you're never kind of disturbing anybody when they are doing something important because then they don't answer the call. Um, so uh it's it's uh yeah, it's a very different feeling, even though you can say you're pretty much doing the same thing.

Sara Brown: 9:32

So now, when you first started sharing the idea for Be My Eyes, what kind of reactions did you get from others?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 9:42

Well, um to be honest, it was positive all the way. Um, but also I was kind of a little because no nobody had done this before. So we uh and when I asked people, hey, would would you sign up for this? And then oh yes, I would. Uh but then uh I mean they are my friends and they want to make me happy. Uh so so we were a little uh uh does peel people real people who had never heard about B My Eyes before in other countries and so on, will they actually sign up and be available? Um so we actually in the beginning we made uh kind of a gamification element so you could uh you could earn points uh when you have been helping someone. Um so um and also my blind friends, I was asking, uh uh, would you use the service? And and and a lot of them said yes. Um and but also they honestly said that hey, we have been doing uh blind life for thousand years without be my eyes. So but it would be nice to have. Uh, I'm not sure how much I will use it, um, but it would absolutely be nice to have. Um uh and for some it is also a need to have, um, but but we are not saving anybody's uh life or anything, but we are making a lot of people's life uh quite a bit easier because you have access to to eyesight.

Sara Brown: 11:11

So absolutely. Now, how did you go from concept to a working app? And what was the hardest part of that early development process? Were there any headaches?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 11:23

Well, um after the startup weekend, uh we uh I got uh I think we were eight people who kind of joined the Be My Eyes idea on that weekend. Um and then uh we won this uh prize as the most innovative idea, and we were all fired up. And um, and then we we went back home, uh everyone, uh, and then we started having uh Sue meetings um every uh other week, or uh maybe uh I don't know if Sue was around at the time, but we we have some video meetings. Um and and we we started uh making a budget and uh finding out that hey, uh it's not actually free to make an app. You need to know uh what you're doing, you need to hire some developers who actually know how to build an app for blind people. Um and so so we uh we made this budget and um and and started writing applications for foundations that would kind of uh benefit uh um this kind of a project. Um and um it took, I think we spent almost a year raising the money. Um and then one day we got uh $300,000 from one of the biggest foundations here in Denmark called Belux. Uh they make windows for for houses. Um and apparently that's a good business uh because they have this foundation where they give away money. Um, and um, and that meant we could start hiring people who knew how to make an app and so on. Uh, and that was a totally amazing process. Um, we also had to spend some time finding people who knew about making an app accessible for uh blind people, uh, because um uh I think it was iPhone 3S or 4, where uh Apple had made uh voiceover, which is uh the system that makes uh iPhones uh usable at all for blind people, uh, because there's there's no buttons on an iPhone. Um, but voiceover is talking to you and so on. So it was also pretty new among blind people to have uh access to smartphones that were capable of making video calls and all that. Uh so finding people who uh could develop an app that were accessible for blind people, uh, we also had to spend uh some time finding the right people. Uh, but we managed. And uh maybe the most important thing we did in that period was that we uh we basically moved in um uh in one of the biggest institutions for blind people in Copenhagen called Ebus, um, where we uh simply rented an office. Uh and there was a ton of blind and low-vision people uh in that institution. So we could uh get easy access to uh new blind people uh that had never uh tried the prototype of B MyId before. Every time we had uh changed something, we asked someone to come in and do some testing and so on. Um, and that was a really good thing because they had all kinds of uh ideas and and uh also we thought we had done a great job, and then they say, What do I do now? And then you realize, hey, we need to make it more understandable or simple or uh something like that. And um, and we we got a way better first version of Be My Eyes because we had access to to all those uh blind people, um, and not only me. Um and uh this is not something uh we have come up with, uh, but we are a strong believer in nothing about us without us. Um and uh so um always involve the person you are developing for, no matter what you're doing. So yeah, exactly.

Sara Brown: 15:29

You know, APH has that model too, and we're building the dot experience most accessible museum, and we have a prototyping team that's made up of individuals who are blind or low vision and have different types and varying degrees of mobility, um, and use different aids to get around and navigate. And you know what, you know, what what might be thought of as you know a fairly simple, straightforward exhibit. The protos they let the prototyping team get to it and oh, we need to go back to the drawing board. Yeah, exactly.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 16:06

And you know, that feature and uh it it can be really uh scary and frustrating and so on, but you save a ton of time and money when you can kind of uh uh reschedule a little bit uh in uh in the beginning before you have uh police and and uh launch uh product uh and so on and so on. So it's it's uh it's a very important uh process. So yeah.

Sara Brown: 16:30

It is, and we love that feedback at APH and B My Eyes loves that feedback. Can you share how a user would use Be My Eyes?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 16:39

I'm more than happy to do that. Thank you. So you download the Be My Eyes app, and uh it's the same app, both as volunteer and as a blind slash low vision person, but you can choose your role, and of course, uh you choose uh to be blind or low vision uh and you sign up. Uh and then you have a number of options. Uh, the first one is uh you can call a volunteer. Uh there's a big button uh that simply says call a volunteer. Uh and when you chat that we will send out a notification to 20 different volunteers because we don't know what they are doing. Um, but they get this notification, and the first one that says yes, uh will be connected with you in a live video call. It's a one-way video and two-way audio. And then uh you can say, Hey, my name is Hans. Can you tell me what's in front of me here? And then the volunteer will say, Yeah, yeah, I can see that you are at your office and there is a white cane on your table. Um, or you can uh use one of the other uh options that we call Be My AI. Uh that's also one of the tabs in the lower part of your screen. Um, and here you can have uh the option of uh taking a photo, and as soon as you have taken the photo, this photo will be uploaded to OpenAI, and within a few seconds uh you will get a description of the photo back. Uh and maybe you did not get the information you were looking for, and then uh there is uh uh a button where you can ask uh follow-up questions, and then you can say, tell me more about um um something, uh and then uh the AI will give you a detailed answer about uh that part of the image. Of course, it needs to be able to see it on the image. Um and if not, it will say, uh, I cannot see any oven uh on on the screen. You need to need to take a new uh photo or uh or it's blurry or uh something like that. Um but you can have kind of a conversation with uh the AI part. Um and if you prefer to do this without uh talking to any other persons, maybe it's too early Monday morning or something, um uh then you are more than welcome to do that. Um and then we also have the service directory where you can find uh companies if you have an issue, say with your uh Google account, uh you can contact Google uh uh support line through the B MyIS app. And then they know it's a blind person, uh, and they will uh be aware of um that they need to um uh talk to you in a specific way and they need to know what a screen reader is and so on. Um and that is kind of the the main functions in in the B MyIS apps.

Sara Brown: 19:44

Now, when a user is using or when a user is using the app, how do you build that trust between the volunteers and the users, given some of the sensitive nature of some calls?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 19:58

Yeah, we are not building any trust. Uh we are so lucky that people simply have that trust. Um, I think if you don't have that trust, you simply don't download be my eyes um uh uh as a volunteer or as a blind person. Uh it takes uh, hey, yeah, uh I I need this and uh I trust other people uh and and uh in general. Of course, you always have to be personal, be careful and and uh think yourself uh basically. Um but the level of trust among people is maybe sometimes uh stronger or higher than than we realize uh or we think it is, uh, because we we always hear the bad stories, uh, but most people are good people. And um, and when you download Be My Eyes, um you um I mean just downloading it, you'd only do that because you want to help other people. Uh and that kind of makes you uh a special person. Um, because uh the bad people they they don't want to download an app to help blind people. Um so um so I think that's kind of how we have gotten to have uh this amazing group of now more than 10 million uh volunteers all over the world, um, simply because they they uh they download it and and they have this experience and they share the experience between uh like-minded uh persons and so on, and they say, hey, I could do that as well, um, and I want to do it. Um and then uh that's how we have yes, but from uh uh from Denmark to to the rest of the world, basically. Um so yeah.

Sara Brown: 21:52

Wow, 10 million volunteers.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 21:56

Yeah, it's crazy. In Denmark, we are only six million people, so for me, for me, it's uh it's really uh uh yeah, a staggering number.

Sara Brown: 22:05

That's huge. Well, congratulations on that milestone. Thank you. Now let's talk about AI for a minute. There's be my eyes AI. Talk about the talk about that and how you see AI complementing the human volunteer aspect of this platform.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 22:23

Yes, um, I think we all remember um in November 2022 when uh OpenAI they launched uh Chat QT. Um, and um everybody uh who was just a little bit interested in uh technology spoke about uh hey, now you can cheat with your schoolwork and all that. Um and of course at BMIs, we were also looking at that. Um and we uh thought, oh, that's that's super cool, and but we didn't really see a use for it within BMIs. Uh we knew that uh you could uh write a text and then you could generate an image. Uh that was also pretty cool. Um, but at some point uh we got in contact with OpenAI and we realized that hey, you can also do it the other way. You can have an image, and then we can create a text describing what's on the image. Uh and then we got super interested. Um uh and we we got access to to that model. Um, in uh this was in the spring of uh 2023. Um and um uh within a month, uh my team uh made this uh uh they added a new function to uh be my eyes, and we call it be myai. Um and when you go there, you can take a photo and then we upload that photo to open AI, and then we get a description back. Uh and it's an amazing uh description, uh very precise, and um uh and we have uh tailored it so it is uh using the relevant uh information that you as a blind person uh is getting because we we tell the uh openai computer that uh this is a blind person, uh, and then uh we we get a an answer that is uh made for blind people basically. Um so and and it has been super super interesting to follow the uh the development um because um uh before AI or before we got into AI, um AI has been around for 50 years, uh but before we got into AI, we we could see that uh quite a few people download B MyIs, but they never really used it. They and when we asked them, oh, it's nice to have, but I don't really need it, and uh uh maybe I don't really like to talk to people I don't know, and so it's only when I really need it and so on. Uh but when we added the AI function where you don't have to talk to anyone, we could see that those people they fired up BMIs and they started using it um heavily. Um uh and today um uh the by far most used feature is our AI function, where you simply take a photo and you get a description and you can ask follow-up questions and so on. Um and basically we don't care if you use uh the volunteers or you use the AI. Whatever uh fits you in in your life and whatever you like to use and feel comfortable using, uh you should do that. Um of course we we have our wonderful volunteers. Um but the funny thing is that uh even though uh most requests is AI, then we we still get more more and more uh people using our volunteers as well. Um and I think that's basically because we got more and more users, of course, but also because when people start using it more, uh they realize, oh, uh now uh it would be easier if if it was a real person, and then they they make it be my eyes call. Um whenever I'm uh starting my washing machine, for instance, uh I always use uh a volunteer because it's way easier when you uh need to turn the dial a little bit and uh check the temperature and all that. Uh then it's just easier to have a real person uh in the other end who can say, Oh, yeah, one more, and now it is at the right temperature and so on. Um my wife tells me I don't do that enough, but uh that's another story. Um, so yeah.

Sara Brown: 27:01

You know, it sounds like the users are finding the benefits of both, you know, or they might have they might have felt, oh, I just want AI, let me, you know, and then one day they try the volunteer and see the benefits that the volunteer provides, and then the benefits that AI provides, and so there's a happy medium for both.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 27:20

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and uh as I said, um we just want to provide the options uh and then let people choose whatever uh option they they want to use. Um uh and we have had people who have maybe uh uh used the volunteers five times, but they had taken 2,000 uh AI photos. Uh and uh and that's perfectly fine. Um and uh of course we also have people who hey, I don't want to talk to a computer, I want a real person. Uh and then uh and then they uh make the calls to the volunteers.

Sara Brown: 27:57

You know, sometimes it's just comforting to have a real person.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 28:02

Sometimes we need to um yeah, also uh, I mean, uh loneliness is also an issue, uh, and uh it's absolutely not the purpose of being my eyes, but uh these small interactions. Um, if you uh live alone and you're blind and you're maybe a little hesitant to go outside and so on, so have a few uh human interactions during the day can be really uh good for your uh mental uh system, basically. Um, and of course, uh I mean um I know that quite a few calls end up being hey, uh I'm in Kentucky, uh how is the weather in Copenhagen and so on? Um and even though it's not the purpose, it it's perfectly fine. Uh and uh and people love those small interactions.

Sara Brown: 28:51

And you know, that's true. We we that the human interaction, that human touch, even if it is just for you know a few seconds or a few minutes, yeah.

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 29:00

It means a lot to your mental uh system. Yeah, yeah.

Sara Brown: 29:03

Absolutely. Now, do you think AI will ever fully replace the need for human volunteers, or will there always be that human element, that technology, or you know, be my eyes just can't replicate?

Hans Jørgen Wiberg: 29:17

Uh I must admit that the um the speed that AI is developing with is amazing. Um and uh it has improved a lot just uh since 2023. Um but I I mean there's a lot of talk about that you can have uh um psychological uh uh training or um coaching uh with with with AI. But but to be honest, uh speaking to a real person, I think, will always be number one. Uh but I think that AI. will be pretty close to talking to another person. Um but I think the when you are talking about the weather and and um having uh some fun back and forth and uh yeah I think I don't think you can really do that with a computer no matter how good it gets. It will always be a little uh a little strange uh and you cannot have the here the the tone and uh yeah I think it it will always be number one to talk to maybe it's just because I'm 61 years old I don't know um but but um it's uh I I feel that um and basically also um when uh everywhere you cannot talk to a human person because all the um things you are calling to ask questions and so on will be replaced with uh AI because it's cheaper uh and so on so being having access to to real human beings will be kind of a maybe even a kind of a luxury um and um and I know that our 10 million volunteers they love to have these uh calls once in a while uh I think a average uh B My I's call is like three minutes or something like that. Uh and some are super short. Have I set my almond too? Yes yes it is at uh 300 degrees and so on. Oh thank you so much and that's it. Other times you you get into a long conversation about uh um the construction or whatever um or cooking maybe more likely um and and you have a wonderful conversation about that um so uh I I'm pretty sure that there will always be a maybe not a real need but a desire for talking to to real people yeah you know you said something about the emotion the the inflections the tone of the voice and I that's when you were saying it I was also thinking it there's something with the human voice or interacting with the human that AI just can't replicate and that it's the tone it's the inflections it's the emotion and yeah it has its place but I think the humans I think the having the human aspect will always be beneficial.

Sara Brown: 32:28

Hope so yeah due to the length of this interview I split this episode into two parts the second half will air next month and on that episode learn how you can use be my eyes when doing troubleshooting and thank you so much for listening to this episode of ChangeMakers please go to the show notes for links to the Be My Eyes website as well as links to download the Be My Eyes app for iPhone and Android. As always be sure to look for ways you can be a change maker this week