Join Bill and I as we discuss how to move forward as an organization in a leadership transition. Whether you are in the process of succession planning or a church interim, this podcast is for you.
Learn more at renewts.com
Join Bill and I as we discuss how to move forward as an organization in a leadership transition. Whether you are in the process of succession planning or a church interim, this podcast is for you.
Learn more at renewts.com
Well, hello, we want to welcome you to episode 79 of the few, a podcast for faith empowered workplace leaders.....
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:...........and I'm Ed.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:And today we're going to be looking at the issue of growing through a leadership transition. It's something that every organization faces. Really. You could say that all leaders are interims in one way or another. And, um, today we're going to take a look at that from both the church perspective and that of the
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think some people are probably going to read the title. growing through a leadership transition and whether they're in a church and they're in an interim period, or whether they're in a business or a nonprofit and they're looking for a new executive director or a new CEO or whatever it might be. They're going to be thinking no, that doesn't happen. Right? The fact is, we, thirdly believe that it can, and we've seen it happen. In the business world and in the church, um, not so much in the nonprofit, but I'm sure it does, but our own experience in business and, and the church, we've seen it happen. And, and we're going to talk a little bit about why we do think that's possible. And we're going to share some real practical ideas on a process and some steps and some things to look at from our perspective. So looking forward to the conversation today, Bill.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Amen. Me too. But before we dive in, I think it's time for a
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Front porch wisdom.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Well, uh, I've been, I've talked in the past about the benefit that I have garnered and the blessing that having read the Atomic Habits book by James Clear has been to me. I read it a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago and helped, uh, rebirth some good habits in me. Go figure, you know, and I've encouraged a number of folks to, to grab it and, um, to, to read it because, um, It's just had such a, a positive impact on me. And the quote that I want to share a little bit of front porch wisdom that stands out to me is, is from that book. And one of the quotes that he makes is this greed is wanting the benefits of community without contributing
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:good.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:And you know, and I thought about that and there's so much truth to that. There are so many people. So many of us want the benefits that come from being around a group of healthy people, of good people. We want the benefits of it. Those circles of relationships were formed by someone. Someone did the hard work of, of creating it. Gathering people and cultivating those relationships. And we just too often just want to experience it without putting the work and the effort into making it happen, the time that's necessary to cultivate those kinds of things. And so I thought it was a good, uh, a good reminder that, you know, if we truly want to experience and enjoy the blessings of community, then, then we're going to have to do some of the work to help
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:And, and, and be a
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, it's kind of funny how, um, my front porch wisdom goes a little bit along the same lines of, uh, things that we know we should be doing, but we don't do. Um, the, we've been reading in a bible study that we're in a book by, um, comer called the, uh, the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, and that's a familiar book probably with a lot of you who are listening out there today. But I was just blown away from some of the statistics that he shared in the beginning of the book. And, and the one that really hit me was, he was talking, it was actually. Um, quoting, uh, some other research that had been done and he was talking about the fact that, that by the time, men, uh, Uh, in the Western world are 21 years old. The average male has spent 20 or 10, 000 hours playing video games 10, 000 hours and then he relates that to how much time it takes to get a bachelor's and a master's degree that That they all could have received bachelor's and master's degrees during that time or mastered many many other things, you know And uh, the book's really been convicting, you know, I know it's not new and uh, You But we're going through it and it's really been convicting for me. Um, I laid down in bed to read it the other night and I read through the chapter where he specifically addressed people playing candy crush and how if you were reading your Bible instead of paying, playing candy crush, And I finished the chapter, laid the book down and played Candy Crush for an hour. So, um, I don't know that I've learned what I should learn from it. It's just one of those things where it's like, yeah, we could be doing so much better if we made better choices. And, uh, but it just blew me away that statistic and, and how much better we could off we all could be if we gave up some of those things that we know really aren't that helpful for anything in our life. So, so anyways.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:I,
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:wisdom. Hopefully other people will listen because unfortunately I haven't done that well at it.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:you know, I, I, I've never played candy crush. That's honest truth. Never, never played candy crush, but, a couple of Sundays ago, I, Was talking about the importance of, you know, cutting out or making, creating margin in your life and devoting the time necessary to have good habits.
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:And, um, and I got onto people about getting stuck, watching reels on Facebook or, you know, various, uh, going, going through your Instagram and just watching video after video after video. And, um, And guess what I did later that afternoon, unfortunately, and I,
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Bench watch something or,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:I, yeah,
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:uh, uh,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:and, and I decided I would try to practice what I
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:right.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:but it's
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right. Well, it is, it is interesting. And I think that, you know, um, the economists call it the attention economy now, you know, where they're marketing to get our attention and, and it is incredible how. Technology, and you know, we're certainly not anti technology on this podcast. Um, but the fact is, is that everything can be used for good or evil and, and you can really get sucked in, uh, to where it grabs your attention and, and keeps you from doing some other things that you really should be doing. And so, so yeah, be careful out there, everybody, and, uh, try to. Try to exercise a little bit of discipline in the use of your technology. Well, just about anything really that, that, uh, takes away your attention from doing what God wants you to do. So,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:amen. Amen. Well, today we want to talk about this whole idea of growing through a time of leadership transition. And, um, seems that, know, a lot of churches, uh, struggle during times of leadership transition. And, and I'm sure that same happens with businesses and, um, you've had the, the opportunity, uh, as a pastor and a leader of, of renew to work with churches through times of transition and you've helped help several, but you've also worked at least in your, on the secular side with some, as well with, uh, with the work that you used to do. And so I really forward to, to walking through some of this and learning, I guess, together here and from, from your experiences. But why, why do you think it is that, that so many churches, experience decline during an interim period, you know, between pastor leaving and another pastor coming to serve?
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:I think statistically, you know, Bill and I were trying to find some statistics on this and they pretty, they vary across the board, but I think what we can say is, you know, Pretty much for sure is that the majority of churches that go through an interim period or a transition of pastoral leadership Experience either a decline in giving a decline in member in attendance a decline in ministry activity or a plateau Um, where things are just kind of being maintained and I think that the same is true for a lot of transitions in nonprofits that are looking for new leaders or businesses looking for new leaders. And I think maybe one of the things really builds mindset. You know, um, to me, I think that there's almost an expectation when you go through that time of transition that things aren't going to get done like they have been getting done. And we're going to do kind of the things we need to do to keep moving forward. But for instance, in a church, what you'll hear so often people say is, well, when the next pastor gets here, when we get the next leader, right? And you hear the same thing in business. You hear the same thing in nonprofits when we get a new leader. And I think a lot of it is wrapped around this understanding of vision that we have. And if you go back and listen to some of our earlier episodes where we talk about vision, we address this, but so often in most organizations, organization in the church, especially, but also I think in, in other, uh, nonprofits and businesses, people look at the whole idea that, um, that the leader sets the vision for the organization. Right. And, and, and kind of our way of looking at that is that if, As people of faith, is that whatever organization we're leading, we want to be in tune with where God wants us to go and what God wants us to do and what God wants us to become. And the fact is, he's not going to give that vision to a leader and not give it also to the people. I don't believe, right? And so I don't think it's a bad thing to be thinking about. Where does God want us to go? What does God want us to become? What does God want us to do? Um, and if you're in a business world, you know, how can we be better at what we do? How can we? How can we, um, be more effective at making the product we make or delivering the service we make or as a nonprofit, you know, how can we, how can we develop and become a stronger board during this time? You know, there are all kinds of things that we can do in all kinds of, of institutions, um, that move us forward. You know, instead of accepting that, well, we can't do anything forward until we get the new leader on board. And I think that is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy of why a lot of organizations really struggle during the transition. There's a lot of other things that enter into it as well. I understand, but I think that is, that is key.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Well, and, and if you have that mentality and you look at in terms of like, and I'm not certain for the Catholic churches, but in terms of just looking at Protestant churches or even in the Baptist circles, how long time lapses between on the average between a senior pastor leaving and a new pastor being called to serve in that congregation. If you just put everything on hold during that interim period, you know, you may, It may be a year and a half, 18 months, two
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Uh, that your church is in a holding pattern and there's no way, I don't think there are very few churches that could avoid decline. I think very few organizations that could avoid decline if they wait that long, um, between leadership. But then there are those who would say, well, Isn't it the leader that's supposed to, you know, we need to wait till we have a leader who's leading us toward this vision. Your perspective on vision, really that of Renew is a little bit different, that it's, it's a, it's a collective, uh,
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yeah. Yeah. And again, if you go back and listen to where we talked about this, um, a lot, You know, the way we look at vision is that, you know, because we are people of faith, we believe that that should come as leaders of faith that should come from God. And so if God wants us to lead an organization somewhere, it's probably not going to be a surprise. You know, I always go back to the Israelites when Moses comes and says, Hey, you know, we're, we're leaving, we're leaving Egypt, right? Like, I don't imagine that there were no Israelites that never thought. That's a good idea, right? Like everybody was like, Oh no, we'd like to stay, you know, now later they want to go back cause things get hard. But, but I imagine everybody was like, yeah, you know, that's exactly what we think God wants us to do is to go back home. And so, so I think that as a leader, you know, we're leading people. along that vision and along that vision path. And I think that God shares it with us as a leader kind of this way, but also think he shares it with the congregation or the organization. And there, there are pieces of it out there. And our job really is to package it up and hand it to the folks and wait it to go. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Right. And so
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yeah.
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:I'm not saying that a, a church or a nonprofit or a business, Should set out and lay out this detailed vision and strategic plan during this time But they should be still having these conversations there should I think be a transitional strategic plan Like during this transition we are going to try to accomplish these things not just keep the doors open not just Stay where we're at and maintain But we want to accomplish and move forward and do these sorts of things.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:So, uh, we've worked with, uh, a few churches, a number of churches in this kind of process. What, what does that process look like, um, in, in reality? Yeah.
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:um for for most of our listeners out there You probably know that, you know The few podcast is sponsored by and comes out of our work in our organization we have called Renew Transformational Strategies. And we're a coaching consulting leadership training organization that works with churches, nonprofit and businesses. And we use this process. Um, and anytime we're doing transition with churches, um, we also use this process. A lot of times just helping nonprofits and businesses kind of take a next step, but, but it's, it's this. It's this process that has five steps. And the first, the first step is to assess. Um, and that assessment really is about trying to figure out and take a real honest look at where you are right now as a church, as an organization, whatever, um, what are your strengths or your weaknesses, you know, all these kinds of things. The second is to interpret. So after you assess and you kind of get all this information together, you want to try to figure out what does this mean? You know, what is all of these things I'm looking at? Um, what are they telling me about the, about the church? What are they telling me about the business or the nonprofit? And once you've interpreted that data, then you want to lay out a plan. So during a, uh, I think there needs to be a transition plan like here where we are now, this is where we would like to be by the time we get a new leader. Here's some things we would like to strengthen and we'd like to leverage some of our strengths and close some of our gaps. And then after you have that plan, you need to execute that plan. So someone's got to be working. You know, you got to have your lay leadership in the church. You got to have your board and your nonprofit. You got to have your other employees in your company. Someone's got to kind of take the reins and do the stuff that needs done to execute the plan. And then you want to sustain what you've done. So. So one of the things that you don't want to do is to have wasted that time during that year or six months or two years, whatever it is, but you want to have a plan on how, when the new leader comes in, do we sustain the movement that we believe we were supposed to be doing even beyond with a new leader? Right? So we, you don't want to take it out of the new leader's hands and say, Hey, you know, this is where we're going and you have no input, but basically to say, this is where we really feel like we're supposed to go. Of course, as people of faith, where God's leading us and, and then figure out how are we going to sustain that movement into, into the future. So it's assess, interpret, plan, execute, and sustain.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Well, I came to the church that I currently serve, um, when I was going through the interview process, had a booklet that they gave me that had, I guess you would say, it was some assessments that they had done. It was assessment, but it was more of a demographic thing. Um, it was like, you know, this is the community in which our church is the average age is this, and, and those kind of things. Um, this is the average income, uh, uh, Uh, this percentage of people are college, have college degrees, you know, on and on and on. Um, but then, you know, from the church side, basically, they didn't really have a whole lot of that assessed. They just had attendance and income basically, and some, some trends. So when you say assess, when we say assess, what, what are we talking
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Well, we've developed, um, in, in the work that we do with churches during interim periods, we've developed nine, what we call, um, nine church health characteristics that we're looking for. Um, and we've, we've kind of worked on these to kind of see how they work with nonprofits and as well as business. Cause there's some, some carry over and some others that kind of shift. Um, but in the church world specifically, what we're looking at is we have, we're, we're trying to assess. Where a church is landing on mission and vision, like how clear is, is their understanding of their mission? How clear is their understanding of their vision? Um, and then not only do they have a clear understanding of what it is, but is it, Are the decisions that they make guided by their mission and vision, right? So, so it's not just something that they can say, Oh, we are here to love God, love others and change the world. Right. But that we really have something concrete that we filter what we do through those things. We're, we're looking at that. We're second, we're looking at kind of their relational integrity. In other words, are there relationships within the church? Are they characterized by trust? Um, are they characterized by a deep care for one another, those sorts of things. And we're looking at outward focus, you know, is the church inwardly focused only on itself, or is there outward focus on a desire to change the community and a willingness to do the work out there in the community? Um, do they equip their members? Well, like our people in the church, if they're asked to do a job, are they given the resources to do it? Well, are they trained to do it? Well, and in the church world. A lot of times this is zero.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:challenge.
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:I just got asked to do this. I had to figure it out on my own. Right. We're also looking at personal spiritual growth and and the way we look at personal spiritual growth is not just knowledge but Transformation like are people changing because of their relationship with Christ we look at authentic worship You know, how are people engaged in worship and all the different characteristics of worship that go along with that? We're looking to openness to change You know, is the church open to change? Um, and not just change for change sake, but you know, when they're, it's driven by the mission and vision, is the church willing to change, or is there always kind of push back on that change? We're looking at very practical things like their facility and resources, you know, is there building, um, An albatross around their neck financially, you know, are they financially, uh, you know, stable? Um, uh, we're looking at their processes and procedures, you know, does their constitution or bylaws is that serve the mission and the vision of the church or is it a hindrance? You know, do, do they have correct procedures in place to handle any kind of challenges that might come? So we're looking at all of, we're looking at. We're taking this big look. Um, and so when we go in and this is whether we're in a church or whether we're doing consulting with the church or, or with a nonprofit or business, the 1st thing we do is this assessment piece and we're going in and we're doing interviews with leaders and interviews with people who are a member of the organization. Um, we're doing, uh, surveys of the stakeholders, the congregation in a church, other folks in other, other, um, organizations we're looking at. All their policies and procedures, their bylaws, their budgets, how are they spending their money? You know, um, is money spent all inwardly? Is some spent outwardly? You know, we're taking all of this work that we're doing, and then we're coming up with some kind of summary, some assessment of saying, from the outside looking in, here's where we think you are. And, and I think in a, in a, in a interim period, a leadership transition period, You, you just can't have a good plan unless you're honest with where you really are, you know, actually in any kind of transition, if you're just wanting to renew or wanting to take a step forward, you got to start with a sincere, honest admission of where we really are. Like we're strong here, we're weak here, you know, and so we need to work on that. So that's the process that we typically follow.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:And the business side parallels
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Somewhat. Yeah, somewhat. I mean, I think on the business side, mission and vision is still important. Like what is the company trying to accomplish? Um, and for some companies, it's very simply making a certain bottom line, right? For others, they want to have community impact for others. They, you know, different things, but what, why do they exist? What are they trying to do? What is their mission and their vision that accompanies that? Um, relational capital is important there. Again, organizational trust, just like in the church. Call relational capital in the business, nonprofit world, relational integrity in the church world. I don't know why, but that's kind of the way we differentiate it. Um, we're also looking at community impact there. Uh, you know, if that is something that's part of what they want to do, um, but also just what is their standing in the community as a group. What is their reputation as a nonprofit? What is their market awareness? Right? Um, those are some things that we don't maybe specifically look at in churches, but that we're looking at in nonprofits and in business as well. Specific stakeholders in the community. Um, like well equipped members in a church, we want to know are, are the employees trained well, right? Are they onboarded well? Are they trained well for the jobs that they're getting hired to do? Are expectations clearly outlined? Is there ongoing continued development, both professional and personal? for the employees, you know, do they have strategic pillars? Like what is their value proposition? They live into that value proposition that this is what differentiates them from their competitors. Um, do they have an openness to change? That's one that we do in, in both places. Are they financially stable and sustainable, you know, um, moving in the future and also their processes and procedures? So across the board. There's a lot of, of kind of similarity in what we would suggest, um, a company or a nonprofit do as well as a church, but there are some differences in looking more at bottom line, looking more at market share, looking more at that kind of thing that we wouldn't necessarily look so much at in church. So,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:So you, you do the assessment and, and you, you interpret what you see and you give that back to the organization,
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:right,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Uh, during this interim
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:right,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:um, so that a plan can
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:exactly.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Um, what are some things that can arise when you, when you give back what they've said about themselves or what, what they've shared when you start facing reality?
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:this is where it gets pretty dicey, honestly, you know, um, and, and it's the same. So, so it's, it's that human nature that we don't want to admit our weaknesses, right? And so you want to go in with as much grace as possible, with as much positivity as possible and really celebrate. Um, but in any situation, you know, if we're going through a time of not having leaders or a leader, There is an exponentially higher opportunity and possibility that our strength, our weaknesses will kill us. Um, you know, a lot of times the presence of a good leader will help an organization keep moving forward, even though there are some of these weaknesses present. And when that leader leaves, Oftentimes, um, the is, I don't know what word I'm looking for here, Bill. Maybe you can help me. But oftentimes what happens is those are highlighted like the weaknesses are automatically highlighted. Right? Um, and and so. So for instance, if an organism, let's just, let's just talk about a church for a minute. If a church is very inwardly focused, right? Um, a leader can be pushing them and, and pulling them and leading them to do some outside stuff. But if their kind of nature is to be inwardly focused, when that leader leaves, a lot of times you'll see everything shift back to an inward focus, right? Because it's this. It's this panic time. I'm reminded kind of in the emotional intelligence fear of seeing that you really get to know who someone is when they're under stress, right? That's when, you know, all of these things about who they are get really highlighted. They get amplified. That's the word I'm kind of thinking of. And I think in the times without a leader, that happens as well. And so when you go in and you point out, To a church or to an executive director of a non profit or to a CEO of a business Hey, um, here are some things that you're not really doing well, right? And again, you say that with every ounce of grace you can. And, uh, but a lot of people don't, don't want to hear it and they'll go into denial. No, that's not, you know, your, your, your data's flawed or your interpretation's wrong, which we don't argue that, you know, like we say, this is what we think based on what we've done. But it's up to you whether you do anything with it. Um, but a lot of people get, they get a little bit, you know, uh, upset about it. Um, denial, grief, you know, anger, all that kind of happens. And so the assessment process is usually the hardest. And if you think in terms of during a leadership transition doing this, you have to really also wade through the grief. That the organization is going through if they lost a leader that they, that they cared a lot for, you know, there's the, there's the worry and anxiety over what's going to happen to our organization. But then there's also the grief over the personal relationship that so many had with that leader, whether it's a pastor or CEO or nonprofit executive director, um, you have to kind of wade through that as you're doing this as well and realize that that's present. So,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Well, and I think one of the advantages or one of the, the blessings, uh, can be a growth point for, uh, an organization in a time of transition like this is grow in their ability and, uh, approach to dealing with, uh, issues. conflict and disagreement. Um, you know, in our culture, we silence voices and instead of listening to them, least that's become our culture. And, um, there's no, it's like if you have an opinion, you can't compromise at all, or you have violated some principle, uh, when a lot of times the best ideas, uh, or the best approach to a certain situation or problem arises when you have. conflicting perspectives discussed and shared. And you actually arrive at some kind of hybrid of the two solutions that works better for the whole situation. And, and I think, uh, one of the growth points that we've seen in, the assessment in this, in, in an interim period is we can, it's a, it's a time in which people can learn. To disagree constructively instead of having destructive, uh, conflict and
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yeah.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Uh, so that, that is a, that certainly should be a goal, but it is something that does come. It's, it's a way, uh, organizations and churches can grow healthier relationally by learning to manage
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Um, honestly, but also, uh, more
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right. Yeah.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:listening and, and, and recognizing that you're on the same page. We're trying to accomplish the same mission. We just to figure out, you know, based on who we really are and where we're really at, we get there. And that's where the plan part from the interpretation
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yeah.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:in. Um,
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:in most of these transitions that we work through, you know, the reality in the church world today is different than a lot of nonprofit and business world in a church world. As you said earlier, Bill, it's not uncommon for a church to go without a pastor for a year. Matter of fact, that's very normal. Sometimes up to two years now because of the lack of people going into being pastors a lot of times in Nonprofits and also in the business world you will have a pretty quick replacement, you know of of that of that leader But it's still the same. It's still transition, right? It's still As the new leader comes on, you know, it's good to have a plan even as the new leaders Kind of getting their feet wet and getting on board so that the organization continues to move forward and then just kind of meshes into that person being the leader. Um, but the fact is, is that you're right. One of the biggest things, and frankly, this is in the church world more. I mean, I hate to say that, but it is. That we deal with. Hey, one of the biggest weaknesses you have is you're not handling conflict. Well, you know, and that comes under that relational integrity piece. So the, the trust is not good. The, you know, the relationships are more defined by conflict than they are about trust. Um, and so that's something that needs to, to be worked on. Right. And you're right. That's one of the, one of the main things that we often find ourselves working on. The other one is leadership development. Right. And this one goes across the board of all organizations, you know, um, if a nonprofit has a board, you know, and they're going to switch from say a long term successful executive director to a new one, that board very, very possibly has become kind of weak because they're depending on the leadership of that executive director. And all of a sudden. They have an absence or they have a brand new executive director. It's really important for a board To really work on board development. How do we provide leadership? How do we engage in a way maybe that we haven't done in a while because for the organization to continue to do what it needs to do We've got to take up that, that, those ratings. Right. Um, and so this in the same, in a business world, you know, there may be supportive people around who have to, to do leadership that they maybe aren't used to doing. And so leadership development is a big piece we work on during these kinds of transition plans as well. That, that usually ends up being something
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:And, you know, you can't underestimate the importance of that in the local church as well. I mean, you mentioned the nonprofit and the business, but, um, the typical Baptist pastor, if you were looking at typical transitions, he just up and says, you know, I have been and had, uh, it's been a blessing to serve, but in 60
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:I love you all, but see ya.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yeah, I love you, but I'm, I'm done. I'm, I'm going to
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:or I'm, I'm
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:you know, that's the tip that's typical and it's really a horrible thing for a church if that pastor, if that leadership hasn't equipped and allowed other people to lead. And I know like it's a very, um, It's a slippery slope to fall that we begin to slide down of allowing too many things to revolve around the one office of leadership, the pastorate. We assume too much responsibility. We don't equip other people to do it. And in part because we feel like it's our duty, but then maybe because we just, we want control or we're afraid to let other people lead. I don't No, you know, there are various reasons for different people, but, but the same thing happens in the church, uh, during these times of transition, if you haven't equipped people, with the, the skills or the, the, the resources to, to do what needs to be done in the absence of the. primary leader.
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:and, uh, but if you look at the body of Christ and the way it's gifted in the way, way the Lord laid it out, if, if, if the church is functioning the way it should be with, with called and gifted leaders in different areas of ministry, as eldership or the pastor roles it shouldn't see a time of dramatic decline, but that's not always what we see. I mean, because the, the office of pastor hasn't done a, uh, a great job of, of allowing others to lead or equipping
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:right,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Um, so this transition period though, um, can give the opportunity to do some of that equipping, uh, and make it a lot, um, a more effective time
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:right. Well, and I would even, I totally, totally agree with you, but I would even say, even if the pastor or again, relating it to business and nonprofit, if the leader has done a good job at developing leaders around them, um, It's still good to continue that development, right? Because it's kind of like, um, leadership, learning leadership is kind of like CPR, you know? Um, if you go take a CPR class every year and someone, you know, you never use it, um, you never have to use it so much. Uh, you would a lot rather have that CPR class having, have occurred last week than you would five years ago if someone drops over. not breathing, right? And the same thing happens. A lot of people who have been through some of this leadership development, but maybe haven't practiced it so much. Now all of a sudden find themselves in this place where someone's got to step. We got to step up. And. And so it's good to continue to give them those tools to continue to, to, to move that development forward. I think during this time, so always a good idea. You know, you can do that in so many ways. You can bring people like us in to help with those sorts of things, or you can just go out and have them reading books and discussing books, but just to kind of keep them focused that also keep them focused on that forward movement and not just on maintaining, you know, how are we going to maintain what we have. Um, So, so yeah, good stuff.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right. you execute a plan, you gotta, the plan would, would directly address things that you felt could be addressed by the folks that are there during this
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Right.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Is
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yes, absolutely. And, and, and let me just say this, you know, like, like I have gotten in the church world, I have gotten pushback from folks that we've been brought in to do this. And someone in the church so often will say, um, Well, I just don't think we should do all this work. And then the pastor comes in and wants to do something completely different. Right. And again, I go through that whole thing of, well, God's not going to tell the pastor to lead you somewhere and tell you during this time, if you're praying and seeking that he wants you to go somewhere and then the pastor comes in and says, no, you were wrong. God was not speaking to you that he's not going to do that. That's not the way God works. Right. But the other part of that is, Why would a pastor not want, I mean, I mean, what pastor wouldn't want to come into a church that during the last year had been working on organizational trust, had been working on dealing better with conflict, had been working on developing leaders. And that pastor It comes in and doesn't like that stuff. You don't want that person as a pastor. I mean, quite simply, it's, that's a gift, you know, that's a gift to any leader that an organization is continuing to move, um, during a time of a leadership absence. Um, you can come in as a leader and say, Hey, you know, I got some ideas. I think, and maybe the church never thought of that, you know, but, but God's like, put it up and that's fine. You're going to have time to do that, but, but it takes a while to get things started again if they've just been kind of dead for that time. Right. So you can get the ground running if you come into a, to an organization that's continued to move during that transition. Exactly,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:and you were actively looking for a new place to lead or to serve, would you rather go to a place that was being proactive and trying to figure out how to be a healthier place or one that had done nothing and just sat and waited for
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:exactly,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:I mean,
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:exactly. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Right.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:All right. So, as we. Kind of begin to wrap this down. You, you talked about, um, really it's a whole culture that needs to be developed. I mean, you, you try to help cultivate a, a culture in this transition period, right? Is that what you've tried to help the church
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yeah. Yeah,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:uh, and, and more open to change and, and, um, and well, help, help me understand what you've, when you talk about developing this culture. this transition or this interim period.
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:you're not, you're not going to flip the culture of an organization in this short period of time, but you can certainly make them start to think about how the culture needs to be different. You can put them on the road toward this happening, right? Um, You can't naively think that you're going to completely change an inwardly focused organization to an outwardly focused organization or an organization that, you know, um, has distrust for each other and an organization that has great trust for one another. But you can certainly get them to realize. that this is something that needs to change and begin steps to see that change. You can begin that, that then can continue with a new leader. Right. Um, but it is a culture shift in a lot of ways that you're working on, but you're also working on some more very practical things like those processes and procedures, getting a real handle on, you know, who are we really, you know, right now, like, you know, for instance, in the, In the physical therapy world that I worked in for a decade, I was having a conversation with a recruiter from a major hospital system the other day and, and, and it was about, it was actually, you know, about a board that she was serving on in a nonprofit world that we were working with, but I was just intrigued. And I asked her the question, she's been there for 10 years, which was about the same time period that I was at the place I was at. And I said, so how much harder is it now recruiting? Health care professionals. And it was 10 years ago. Oh my goodness. It's completely different. You know, like 10 years ago, you know, we had multiple applicants for every position. We had this choice. Now we have zero applicants for our positions. We have to go out and that was exactly my experience, right? So if as an organization, you pretend. You're still who you used to be, you know, and you're still doing things like you used to, or you're not staffing your organization. You know, you're totally missing the boat. You have to go out and recruit people where it used to be they came to you. And so that's just one specific example of honestly knowing where you're at, right? Like I'm not who we used to be, you know, in the church world, I've seen churches that used to have 350 people on Sunday mornings. Now they have 30. And they're trying to do the same worship service that they did when they had 350 people to choose from to help do it. Right. And it's like, why? You know, it's because it's a lack of really understanding. This is not who we are anymore. And so you've got to be honest in that place of, of where you are, and then you can start to make those changes. So some of these changes are cultural, but some of them are very specific. Like we can't do 10 things anymore. We can only do three. You know, um, we, we don't have the resources to do all 10. So, so let's concentrate on three. We can do well rather than 10 that we do halfway, you know, there's some real policies and procedures in there, you know, things, you know, how many organizations have had to change their constitutions for quorums of business meetings and things like that, because. They don't have the participation. You said, well, all that can be changed and ready for a new leader instead of that new leader having to spend so much time working on those things. So, so there is some culture shift, but there is also some real, um, practical specific things, procedure wise, you know, all that kind of stuff that you can work on
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yeah. Well, and I, and I think that you've seen some fruit from the work that you've done, um, with the number of churches the past five to seven years, probably even longer than
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:10,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:Eight.
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:about 10,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:10
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:about 10.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:10
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yeah,
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:doing the intentional transitional interims and I think that word is important. You'll see that if you, if you do a search online, the, the intentional interims is a term that's
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:right.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:I don't know if it's so much in the business world, but I know it does in the church and the is exactly what we've been discussing where, it's not just a flippant decision that the church makes. We just need somebody to cover the pulpit until we find our permanent guy. Right. Right. It's an intentional decision to address things that we need to address as a people set up our next pastor, our next leader
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yes.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:to have a good start, to, to arrive, to begin at a healthy place and, and that whole, um, intentionality, um, is, is the,
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:Yeah.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:and that's what we're
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:And we've seen it work. I mean, over that last decade, we've seen it work over and over again. Um, and, and we've seen very successful transitions to where the pastors who come in are very successful at continuing that movement. Um, after that interim period is over and on the, and on the nonprofit and the business side, we've seen it as well. Not so much because we, you know, frankly, honestly, personally, our experience with Renew in this interim leadership Peace has been, has been really focused a lot in the church. Um, and we still do that. You know, if any of you are out there interested, you know, we, we provide this intentional transitional interim, um, would love to sit down and have a consult with your leadership team, uh, about how we could serve you as well. Um, but in the business world, we apply some of these same things in the business world, the nonprofit world, even while there's a leader, just when they want to make a transition to a. You know, having a higher capacity or developing, you know, they're bored. So we apply the same kind of assess, interpret, plan, execute and sustain model. It's just we're looking in the assessment at different things than we are in a, in a leadership transition. So, so we kind of apply this model to all kinds of things that we do, um, that help people move from where they are, to where they, where they want to go. So
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:And
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:It does. Yep. It does.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:It
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:It does work. So. Well, that's fun, Bill. You got anything else to add to that?
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:you know, uh, my, my, my goal here was to ask you some good questions. That was my
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:You did well. You asked some great questions. So hope I gave some decent answers.
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:I just really want to affirm the, the value that it is to a church. I mean, um, and, and, um, And express gratitude for you for what you've done for the churches that you've been able to help through these kinds of transitions. It, it's a very real need. It seems to be a growing need. Um, and it does seem that there are a growing number of people in the church world that realize that churches have handled the transition periods poorly in the past, and they're trying to cast a new vision for ways to do that. And this is one part of that, you know, and, and, um, and looking at this as an, uh, season, this in transitional period as a, as a season for opportunity to, to grow and at least they maybe lay a foundation for future growth. So a good topic.
dr--c--edward-rogers-jr-_1_05-07-2024_143239:we appreciate all of you out there, whether you're in the business world, the church world, the nonprofit world. We hope that what we share today brought some value to you. If you are out there and you're looking for us for someone to utilize this process to help you make a step forward to develop your board at your nonprofit. To help your leaders or, or just you as the leader in a company, um, we'd be glad to talk to you about how we can do that. If you're a church out there that wants this level of transitional interim, um, we would be glad to talk to you about that. Uh, we have different ways we do this. For some churches, we just do the assessment and we leave it up to you to develop the plan, execute the plan, to do all that. For some, we go through the whole, you know, we walk with you through the entire interim period. Um, we also work with your search committee. We've got a list of questions developed. We think that especially in, in the churches that are of the tradition where they are autonomously hiring pastors, that A lot of the interview process is really not good. Um, and so we've got a whole interview process that we've developed with questions that will work with your team as well to help you really do a little bit better job of, of discerning, um, uh, with the people that you're interviewing. And so we'd be glad to talk to you about that. Just, uh, drop us a line on Facebook or email us at ed at RenewTS. com or bill at RenewTS. com. Um, be glad to talk to you about it. So, until next time, Bill, we hope that you are
bill-brown_1_05-07-2024_143239:One of the few.,