{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.166,"endTime":4.506,"body":"You're listening to Podcasting Made Simple."},{"startTime":4.906,"endTime":6.716,"body":"Hey everyone, Alex Sanfilippo here."},{"startTime":6.716,"endTime":11.036,"body":"Super excited to be back with you for the State of Podcasting, which we do every quarter."},{"startTime":11.036,"endTime":13.296,"body":"And I'm really excited with my guest today."},{"startTime":13.296,"endTime":17.326,"body":"I'm excited that I have Tom Webster joining me, who is one of the partners of Sounds"},{"startTime":13.296,"endTime":17.326,"body":"Profitable."},{"startTime":17.326,"endTime":22.866,"body":"And I'll share more about that in a moment, but real quick, Tom, today we're gonna do"},{"startTime":17.326,"endTime":22.866,"body":"something a little bit different with the State of Podcasting, but first and foremost,"},{"startTime":22.866,"endTime":23.356,"body":"welcome."},{"startTime":23.356,"endTime":24.426,"body":"So glad you're here."},{"startTime":24.426,"endTime":25.176,"body":"Thanks, yeah."},{"startTime":25.176,"endTime":28.974,"body":"And you know, I'm glad you're gonna do something different, because I think that's part"},{"startTime":25.176,"endTime":28.974,"body":"of..."},{"startTime":28.974,"endTime":30.534,"body":"keeping the podcast fresh, right?"},{"startTime":30.534,"endTime":31.354,"body":"So you never know."},{"startTime":31.354,"endTime":32.674,"body":"You got to try, you got to iterate."},{"startTime":32.674,"endTime":33.234,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":33.234,"endTime":39.194,"body":"And you know, I was thinking back to some previous state of podcasting conversations I've"},{"startTime":33.234,"endTime":39.194,"body":"had with other experts in the industry."},{"startTime":39.194,"endTime":47.414,"body":"And we've covered things like AI before it came out, cryptocurrency before, like when"},{"startTime":39.194,"endTime":47.414,"body":"Value for Value was coming into play, video podcasting before YouTube, right?"},{"startTime":47.414,"endTime":52.518,"body":"And although you could still go back and listen those and they're still somewhat"},{"startTime":47.414,"endTime":52.518,"body":"evergreen, what we're going talk about today is like,"},{"startTime":52.802,"endTime":54.924,"body":"probably the most evergreen topic in podcasting."},{"startTime":54.924,"endTime":58.606,"body":"Now, real quick, you're like, Alex, I wanted to hear like the data, the research, right?"},{"startTime":58.606,"endTime":59.827,"body":"I'm going to give you a resource."},{"startTime":59.827,"endTime":60.938,"body":"It's actually Tom's resource."},{"startTime":60.938,"endTime":65.711,"body":"If you go to soundsprofitable.com forward slash research, there's all kinds of things."},{"startTime":65.711,"endTime":66.382,"body":"It's always getting updated."},{"startTime":66.382,"endTime":68.173,"body":"It'll be evergreen because they're always doing new things."},{"startTime":68.173,"endTime":70.445,"body":"And it is some of the best reporting I've ever seen in podcasting."},{"startTime":70.445,"endTime":72.446,"body":"So Tom, first and foremost, thank you for that."},{"startTime":72.446,"endTime":75.879,"body":"I really appreciate what you guys make available to us as indie podcasters."},{"startTime":75.879,"endTime":77.069,"body":"Yeah, I mean, that's our mission."},{"startTime":77.069,"endTime":80.744,"body":"I mean, you know, we are serving as the trade organization for the industry and"},{"startTime":80.744,"endTime":86.416,"body":"We're certainly funded and supported by various networks and companies in the space."},{"startTime":86.517,"endTime":89.218,"body":"my heart, as it always has been, is also with the Indies."},{"startTime":89.218,"endTime":94.63,"body":"So anything that we are going to produce, it may have a variety of sponsors on it, but we"},{"startTime":89.218,"endTime":94.63,"body":"provide it for free."},{"startTime":94.63,"endTime":96.781,"body":"We don't ask people to sign up for anything."},{"startTime":96.781,"endTime":99.222,"body":"Our goal is to grow the space and to enable careers."},{"startTime":99.222,"endTime":99.703,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":99.703,"endTime":104.215,"body":"And I respect that you've been the forefront of that for as long as podcasting seems to"},{"startTime":99.703,"endTime":104.215,"body":"have been around."},{"startTime":104.215,"endTime":105.625,"body":"So thank you for that."},{"startTime":105.625,"endTime":107.49,"body":"And I was actually shocked when I went to..."},{"startTime":107.49,"endTime":108.831,"body":"soundsprofit.com slash report."},{"startTime":108.831,"endTime":111.393,"body":"I like went in there, I clicked, it just gave me the PDF."},{"startTime":111.393,"endTime":112.955,"body":"I was like, you don't want my email address or anything."},{"startTime":112.955,"endTime":118.059,"body":"Like, again, really appreciate you looking out for many of us that are in this audience"},{"startTime":112.955,"endTime":118.059,"body":"today, like myself included."},{"startTime":118.059,"endTime":120.601,"body":"Anyway, I move into today's conversation for sake of time."},{"startTime":120.601,"endTime":122.663,"body":"We're going a little bit deeper than just the research."},{"startTime":122.663,"endTime":125.526,"body":"We're gonna get into what I consider to the pulse of podcasting."},{"startTime":125.526,"endTime":127.978,"body":"Now, if you're a podcast host, this is gonna be directly for you."},{"startTime":127.978,"endTime":134.76,"body":"If you're a guest, this is gonna help inform you on the shows that you should really be"},{"startTime":127.978,"endTime":134.76,"body":"pursuing and how to determine if it's gonna be a right show for you."},{"startTime":134.76,"endTime":135.564,"body":"So I encourage you."},{"startTime":135.564,"endTime":137.815,"body":"Make sure you're not like, this sounds like it's just for podcast hosts."},{"startTime":137.815,"endTime":139.755,"body":"No, this is equally for you as well."},{"startTime":139.755,"endTime":146.517,"body":"And when I talk about the pulse, I noticed, Tom, there's three main questions I've gotten"},{"startTime":139.755,"endTime":146.517,"body":"over the years, and I've not been in podcasting nearly as long as you have."},{"startTime":146.517,"endTime":149.128,"body":"First one, I'll go in order from third to first."},{"startTime":149.128,"endTime":154.399,"body":"The third most common thing I hear is how do I improve my podcasting workflow or"},{"startTime":149.128,"endTime":154.399,"body":"production process?"},{"startTime":154.399,"endTime":156.18,"body":"Which I actually like that question."},{"startTime":156.18,"endTime":158.72,"body":"The second one is how do I monetize my podcast?"},{"startTime":158.74,"endTime":161.361,"body":"But number one is how do I get more listeners?"},{"startTime":161.381,"endTime":165.302,"body":"And when I say number one is in its own category, I mean, it's like,"},{"startTime":165.75,"endTime":167.11,"body":"10X these other two, right?"},{"startTime":167.11,"endTime":169.433,"body":"Cause they're like, well, if I get more listeners, I can monetize."},{"startTime":169.433,"endTime":172.525,"body":"If I get more listeners, then I can focus on making my show better, right?"},{"startTime":172.525,"endTime":174.356,"body":"And that's kind of always been the mentality of it."},{"startTime":174.356,"endTime":179.639,"body":"So today what we're gonna dive into is that question and really getting into how to answer"},{"startTime":174.356,"endTime":179.639,"body":"it."},{"startTime":179.639,"endTime":183.561,"body":"And Tom, this will be from your book, which I highly, highly recommend."},{"startTime":183.561,"endTime":191.04,"body":"Like, I mean, I have the book right here with me and it is like my most underlined and"},{"startTime":183.561,"endTime":191.04,"body":"page folded book I've ever read and it's called The Audience Is Listening."},{"startTime":191.04,"endTime":193.172,"body":"a little guide to building a big podcast."},{"startTime":193.172,"endTime":196.655,"body":"And if you go to audienceslisteningbook.com, you can grab a copy."},{"startTime":196.655,"endTime":201.86,"body":"And I seriously urge anyone checking this out to please, please grab a copy because it"},{"startTime":196.655,"endTime":201.86,"body":"will be a game changer for you."},{"startTime":201.86,"endTime":205.056,"body":"So I want to get into the opening question here and turn this over to you, Tom."},{"startTime":205.056,"endTime":209.096,"body":"I'm going to do a lot less talking for the rest of this, but how do I get more listeners"},{"startTime":205.056,"endTime":209.096,"body":"is the opening question."},{"startTime":209.096,"endTime":213.91,"body":"Can you just kind of talk about why this central question is like the focus of the book?"},{"startTime":213.91,"endTime":214.831,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":214.831,"endTime":218.654,"body":"And I'm going to go with the deeper unspoken question here."},{"startTime":219.038,"endTime":221.03,"body":"It is the most common question you hear."},{"startTime":221.03,"endTime":222.982,"body":"It's the most common question I hear."},{"startTime":222.982,"endTime":224.103,"body":"How do I get more listeners?"},{"startTime":224.103,"endTime":234.642,"body":"And a lot of times the answers people give are going to be tactical marketing things, You"},{"startTime":224.103,"endTime":234.642,"body":"know, feed drops, Facebook ads, social media, all this other stuff, right?"},{"startTime":234.642,"endTime":236.394,"body":"That's kind of tactical marketing things."},{"startTime":236.394,"endTime":240.417,"body":"But there's a question underlying the, how do I get more listeners question?"},{"startTime":240.417,"endTime":245.001,"body":"And it's usually asked by people whose podcasts have stopped growing."},{"startTime":245.001,"endTime":246.4,"body":"They've stopped growing."},{"startTime":246.4,"endTime":247.951,"body":"Or they have slowed down, right?"},{"startTime":247.951,"endTime":250.993,"body":"Nobody asks that if their podcast is growing like gangbusters."},{"startTime":250.993,"endTime":254.295,"body":"The better question is why did my podcast stop growing?"},{"startTime":254.295,"endTime":257.196,"body":"When you can answer why did my podcast stop growing?"},{"startTime":257.196,"endTime":261.879,"body":"Then you're ready to tackle the full ramifications of how do I get more listeners?"},{"startTime":261.879,"endTime":269.543,"body":"And where I wrote the book from and the standpoint that I take is that there's really two"},{"startTime":261.879,"endTime":269.543,"body":"things you can master as a podcaster."},{"startTime":269.623,"endTime":274.976,"body":"One thing you can master is your craft, the tools of your craft, the workflow, editing,"},{"startTime":269.623,"endTime":274.976,"body":"all of the"},{"startTime":274.976,"endTime":278.227,"body":"audio engineering and sound quality and all of that stuff."},{"startTime":278.227,"endTime":279.588,"body":"That's half of it."},{"startTime":279.588,"endTime":281.959,"body":"The other half is knowledge of your audience."},{"startTime":281.959,"endTime":288.952,"body":"And this is not where I see podcasters going in terms of what they want to master and"},{"startTime":281.959,"endTime":288.952,"body":"where they want to spend their time."},{"startTime":288.952,"endTime":290.052,"body":"It's the hard work."},{"startTime":290.052,"endTime":293.314,"body":"And I wrote the book to try to make it more accessible for people."},{"startTime":293.314,"endTime":299.396,"body":"But, you know, ultimately, if you're trying to grow your podcast, you're trying to figure"},{"startTime":293.314,"endTime":299.396,"body":"out why it stopped growing."},{"startTime":299.396,"endTime":303.538,"body":"The first question you need to figure out for yourself is who am I for?"},{"startTime":303.538,"endTime":304.578,"body":"Who am I for?"},{"startTime":304.578,"endTime":315.601,"body":"You what I respect about you, Alex, you're very clear with me even before this podcast"},{"startTime":304.578,"endTime":315.601,"body":"started and in this podcast, you're very clear to me that, I am for not just podcasters,"},{"startTime":315.601,"endTime":317.872,"body":"but I'm also for guests on podcasts, right?"},{"startTime":317.872,"endTime":320.482,"body":"So you have that in the back of your mind the whole time you're talking."},{"startTime":320.482,"endTime":326.164,"body":"And, you know, what I would encourage people to do is to get as specific as you can."},{"startTime":326.184,"endTime":331.986,"body":"It's to think about an individual human, somebody you know, maybe, you know, this is the"},{"startTime":326.184,"endTime":331.986,"body":"podcast for."},{"startTime":331.99,"endTime":342.147,"body":"Jennifer who is in accounting at this and you know, has two kids and she like get as"},{"startTime":331.99,"endTime":342.147,"body":"specific as you can because if you make that show That's the start and if you're not"},{"startTime":342.147,"endTime":349.312,"body":"making that show if you're not if you're making a show that well think everyone would like"},{"startTime":342.147,"endTime":349.312,"body":"this or I think it's for men 25 to 54 people don't have anything in common at those levels"},{"startTime":349.312,"endTime":357.818,"body":"Not really so that you get very specific about who you're for and that's how you begin"},{"startTime":349.312,"endTime":357.818,"body":"your journey I think this is such a good point because I think that many of us like you"},{"startTime":357.818,"endTime":361.654,"body":"said that it's like a two-sided coin We focus very much on our own craft"},{"startTime":361.654,"endTime":365.005,"body":"And there's many people in podcasting, they've got it polished, they've got it buttoned"},{"startTime":361.654,"endTime":365.005,"body":"up."},{"startTime":365.005,"endTime":367.156,"body":"So they're like, why am I not getting more listeners, right?"},{"startTime":367.156,"endTime":371.847,"body":"But what we miss is like, yes, we have our knowledge of ourselves and what we do, but not"},{"startTime":367.156,"endTime":371.847,"body":"of our listeners."},{"startTime":371.847,"endTime":374.074,"body":"And there's something you wrote in the book that I actually wrote down here."},{"startTime":374.074,"endTime":378.058,"body":"It was like the first thing I highlighted, underlined, ripped out the book and put on my"},{"startTime":374.074,"endTime":378.058,"body":"wall basically."},{"startTime":378.058,"endTime":383.34,"body":"And it says, if you don't understand the human on the other end of the screen or speaker,"},{"startTime":378.058,"endTime":383.34,"body":"you will never succeed."},{"startTime":383.44,"endTime":386.137,"body":"You might get like little movements and stuff, but you're never going to fully succeed."},{"startTime":386.137,"endTime":387.881,"body":"And that's what I really want to dive in here today."},{"startTime":387.881,"endTime":391.586,"body":"So I'm just going to kind of go point by point on a few things that I think really stood"},{"startTime":387.881,"endTime":391.586,"body":"out."},{"startTime":391.586,"endTime":394.388,"body":"The first of which is actually talking to your listeners."},{"startTime":394.388,"endTime":398.011,"body":"And the reason I want to start with this is because I think so many of us were like, okay,"},{"startTime":394.388,"endTime":398.011,"body":"Alex, great."},{"startTime":398.011,"endTime":399.442,"body":"How do I get more knowledge of my audience?"},{"startTime":399.442,"endTime":403.775,"body":"And I think it sounds simple once I read it, but we don't think about talking to our"},{"startTime":399.442,"endTime":403.775,"body":"listeners very much."},{"startTime":403.775,"endTime":407.717,"body":"Can you speak to this point a little bit and how we can kind of successfully do this?"},{"startTime":407.717,"endTime":408.258,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":408.258,"endTime":417.714,"body":"You know, the one thing I really wanted to not do in the book was go too far off the deep"},{"startTime":408.258,"endTime":417.714,"body":"end in terms of, you know, structured quantitative research, cause that's not something"},{"startTime":417.714,"endTime":420.128,"body":"most podcasters are going to be able to afford or"},{"startTime":420.128,"endTime":428.663,"body":"Or maybe make the time for, because so many podcasters, it's a hobby or it's something"},{"startTime":420.128,"endTime":428.663,"body":"they do after hours or it's a second gig, right?"},{"startTime":428.663,"endTime":431.425,"body":"So I wanted to make sure that what was in the book was actionable."},{"startTime":431.425,"endTime":435.137,"body":"And it does start with talking to people and it's incredibly easy to talk to people."},{"startTime":435.137,"endTime":445.144,"body":"mean, if you have an audience of some kind already, it's the easiest thing in the world to"},{"startTime":435.137,"endTime":445.144,"body":"reach out to them in the podcast itself and say, Hey, I'd to make this show better."},{"startTime":445.144,"endTime":446.184,"body":"you email me?"},{"startTime":446.346,"endTime":451.168,"body":"If you're asking me how to grow your show, you're probably not going to get inundated"},{"startTime":446.346,"endTime":451.168,"body":"beyond your ability to respond."},{"startTime":451.168,"endTime":455.11,"body":"So you go ahead and ask for the, ask for the order there, ask for emails."},{"startTime":455.11,"endTime":463.453,"body":"I tend not to try to engage in things substantive on social media because character limits"},{"startTime":455.11,"endTime":463.453,"body":"and performative behavior and things like that."},{"startTime":463.453,"endTime":467.815,"body":"try to keep it private and you know, one-on-one is a great way to go."},{"startTime":467.815,"endTime":471.697,"body":"But the real key here is, is to ask better questions."},{"startTime":471.697,"endTime":475.148,"body":"Because if you ask questions like, what do you think of my podcast?"},{"startTime":475.63,"endTime":477.23,"body":"What do you like about it?"},{"startTime":477.23,"endTime":479.31,"body":"You're going to, you it's, good."},{"startTime":479.31,"endTime":479.77,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":479.77,"endTime":480.08,"body":"It's funny."},{"startTime":480.08,"endTime":480.89,"body":"It's interesting."},{"startTime":480.89,"endTime":482.38,"body":"Well, what do you really like about it?"},{"startTime":482.38,"endTime":483.11,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":483.11,"endTime":484.69,"body":"I just, you know, it's funny."},{"startTime":484.99,"endTime":486.33,"body":"It's, interesting."},{"startTime":486.33,"endTime":489.69,"body":"Like you're not going to get, you know, specifics that are really going to help you."},{"startTime":489.69,"endTime":492.56,"body":"So the questions you need to ask are not focused on you."},{"startTime":492.56,"endTime":493.69,"body":"They're focused on them."},{"startTime":493.69,"endTime":496.54,"body":"You need to figure out who they are when they're at home."},{"startTime":496.54,"endTime":500.57,"body":"And that's a quote that I love from Ulysses by James Joyce in a, in a former life."},{"startTime":500.57,"endTime":502.118,"body":"I, I was a"},{"startTime":502.19,"endTime":504.66,"body":"I taught rhetoric and composition at Penn State for a while."},{"startTime":504.66,"endTime":505.41,"body":"was an English major."},{"startTime":505.41,"endTime":507.09,"body":"And so I had to read Ulysses."},{"startTime":507.09,"endTime":508.15,"body":"It took a whole semester."},{"startTime":508.15,"endTime":516.03,"body":"And there's a great quote in there from Molly Bloom, one of the characters, as her husband"},{"startTime":508.15,"endTime":516.03,"body":"Leopold is talking about somebody and she goes, who's he when he's at home?"},{"startTime":516.03,"endTime":518.89,"body":"And the answer to that is not, he's an accountant."},{"startTime":518.89,"endTime":519.57,"body":"know."},{"startTime":519.57,"endTime":521.75,"body":"No, it's something deeper than that."},{"startTime":521.75,"endTime":528.69,"body":"And when you begin to understand that, then you can begin to get more specific in your"},{"startTime":521.75,"endTime":528.69,"body":"delivery of the podcast."},{"startTime":528.69,"endTime":530.806,"body":"You begin to have a better filter for."},{"startTime":530.806,"endTime":532.747,"body":"is this person going to find this interesting or not?"},{"startTime":532.747,"endTime":534.158,"body":"So those are the kinds of questions."},{"startTime":534.158,"endTime":538.419,"body":"And I have some, I think, great examples in the book, and I'm happy to share them here as"},{"startTime":534.158,"endTime":538.419,"body":"well."},{"startTime":538.419,"endTime":540.49,"body":"But you you tell me."},{"startTime":540.49,"endTime":542.241,"body":"I think that we'll get into just a few of those."},{"startTime":542.241,"endTime":545.804,"body":"again, I do encourage people to grab the book because it's a great practice you send"},{"startTime":542.241,"endTime":545.804,"body":"people to."},{"startTime":545.804,"endTime":548.854,"body":"And we just won't have time to get into that today with continuing along here."},{"startTime":548.854,"endTime":551.705,"body":"But real quick, like you mentioned some of the questions not to ask."},{"startTime":551.705,"endTime":552.436,"body":"I totally agree."},{"startTime":552.436,"endTime":557.88,"body":"By the way, if you ask me those questions, Tom, about your podcast, like the way that you"},{"startTime":552.436,"endTime":557.88,"body":"said not to ask them, I'm a bit of a"},{"startTime":557.88,"endTime":561.603,"body":"people pleaser by nature and it's not comfortable for me to tell you something"},{"startTime":557.88,"endTime":561.603,"body":"uncomfortable."},{"startTime":561.603,"endTime":562.797,"body":"So if you're like, do you like the show?"},{"startTime":562.797,"endTime":563.495,"body":"And we're like, yep."},{"startTime":563.495,"endTime":564.636,"body":"Anything we can do better?"},{"startTime":564.636,"endTime":565.277,"body":"Nope."},{"startTime":565.277,"endTime":566.267,"body":"Please don't ask me again."},{"startTime":566.267,"endTime":566.718,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":566.718,"endTime":570.971,"body":"But what's way we can reposition some of those questions, just really high level and then"},{"startTime":566.718,"endTime":570.971,"body":"we'll kind of move on here."},{"startTime":570.971,"endTime":574.515,"body":"But I am curious to hear what you would say, how we could really ask a better question."},{"startTime":574.515,"endTime":575.846,"body":"I will give you a great one."},{"startTime":575.846,"endTime":577.607,"body":"And it's one simple question."},{"startTime":577.607,"endTime":585.504,"body":"I call it the eulogy question and it's this, and you can, you know, you can go as far down"},{"startTime":577.607,"endTime":585.504,"body":"this road as you want, but if you were to say to somebody, you know, I'm thinking about"},{"startTime":585.504,"endTime":586.244,"body":"ending the podcast."},{"startTime":586.244,"endTime":587.445,"body":"I'm thinking about not doing it anymore."},{"startTime":587.445,"endTime":590.756,"body":"If I, if I did that, what would you miss?"},{"startTime":590.756,"endTime":593.226,"body":"What would you miss that you would have to look for somewhere else?"},{"startTime":593.226,"endTime":593.656,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":593.656,"endTime":597.577,"body":"And that is going to generate a more specific response then, what do you like?"},{"startTime":597.577,"endTime":598.198,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":598.198,"endTime":599.748,"body":"They're going to have to dig a little bit deeper."},{"startTime":599.748,"endTime":602.419,"body":"They're not going to go, I'll miss the interesting and funny."},{"startTime":602.419,"endTime":606.62,"body":"They're probably going to name a feature or a segment that you do or a particular point of"},{"startTime":602.419,"endTime":606.62,"body":"view."},{"startTime":606.62,"endTime":609.981,"body":"There's something that sparks with your existing listeners."},{"startTime":609.981,"endTime":612.762,"body":"And if you, this sounds awful."},{"startTime":612.762,"endTime":614.35,"body":"If you threaten to take it away,"},{"startTime":614.35,"endTime":616.03,"body":"They'll get a lot more specific about that."},{"startTime":616.03,"endTime":619.31,"body":"And by the way, the answer to that question might be nothing."},{"startTime":619.31,"endTime":623.09,"body":"And you need to know that too, because that's a warning sign."},{"startTime":623.09,"endTime":625.11,"body":"That question right there, that's worth the cost of entry."},{"startTime":625.11,"endTime":625.71,"body":"So thank you."},{"startTime":625.71,"endTime":628.13,"body":"We could end right now, Tom, and it would be worthwhile."},{"startTime":628.13,"endTime":629.24,"body":"So I love that."},{"startTime":629.24,"endTime":634.12,"body":"think it just gives a level of insight that someone's going to provide to you that you"},{"startTime":629.24,"endTime":634.12,"body":"otherwise wouldn't get."},{"startTime":634.12,"endTime":635.13,"body":"So I love that."},{"startTime":635.13,"endTime":638.73,"body":"I want to move on to the second idea here I want to get into, which is knowing your"},{"startTime":635.13,"endTime":638.73,"body":"avatar."},{"startTime":638.73,"endTime":641.846,"body":"And you kind of already hint about getting really specific with this a little bit."},{"startTime":641.846,"endTime":649.763,"body":"I find that many podcasters I talk to when they describe their avatar, can tell there"},{"startTime":641.846,"endTime":649.763,"body":"hasn't been a whole lot of talking to your listeners to describe this."},{"startTime":649.763,"endTime":656.098,"body":"Can you just share some best practices around really learning to know your avatar and"},{"startTime":649.763,"endTime":656.098,"body":"really designing and crafting who that is?"},{"startTime":656.098,"endTime":656.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":656.459,"endTime":661.643,"body":"And this is, again, this is, think, an audience-centric practice and not a content-centric"},{"startTime":656.459,"endTime":661.643,"body":"practice."},{"startTime":661.643,"endTime":670.062,"body":"And the key to this, you know, there's a TEDx talk by a guy named Simon Sinek that"},{"startTime":661.643,"endTime":670.062,"body":"everyone in quotes called, start with your why and all that."},{"startTime":670.062,"endTime":679.482,"body":"And I don't think that's a particularly applicable quote for people in the entertainment"},{"startTime":670.062,"endTime":679.482,"body":"medium, because I think for most people, what's your why is I would like a large audience"},{"startTime":679.482,"endTime":682.362,"body":"and I would like to make some money or I would like to, right?"},{"startTime":682.362,"endTime":684.262,"body":"That's sorry, that's bulk."},{"startTime":684.522,"endTime":686.181,"body":"You can edit that out."},{"startTime":686.181,"endTime":687.112,"body":"Thanks for the clap."},{"startTime":687.112,"endTime":688.122,"body":"That was a real pro move."},{"startTime":688.122,"endTime":689.432,"body":"That was a pro move right there, right?"},{"startTime":689.432,"endTime":690.472,"body":"I'm going to leave it all in though."},{"startTime":690.472,"endTime":691.302,"body":"It's going to make people laugh."},{"startTime":691.302,"endTime":692.962,"body":"So we're keeping it."},{"startTime":692.982,"endTime":694.702,"body":"Like your why doesn't matter."},{"startTime":694.702,"endTime":695.972,"body":"It's the why of the audience."},{"startTime":695.972,"endTime":697.702,"body":"And here's the key to that."},{"startTime":697.702,"endTime":699.754,"body":"The why that you need to know."},{"startTime":699.754,"endTime":706.62,"body":"is the why a group of people, not everybody, but why a segment of people would or would"},{"startTime":699.754,"endTime":706.62,"body":"not listen to your show."},{"startTime":706.62,"endTime":708.491,"body":"Why do they listen to your show?"},{"startTime":708.491,"endTime":710.423,"body":"And there's no one reason."},{"startTime":710.423,"endTime":715.227,"body":"There's not, I'm not saying there's millions, but there are different groups of people"},{"startTime":710.423,"endTime":715.227,"body":"that share a different why."},{"startTime":715.227,"endTime":720.271,"body":"I want to just because that's a little fuzzy for people, I'm going to give you a really"},{"startTime":715.227,"endTime":720.271,"body":"clear example of that."},{"startTime":720.512,"endTime":722.693,"body":"and, I think I touch on this in the book."},{"startTime":722.693,"endTime":728.404,"body":"If I were to do a podcast about, you know, my little pony, okay, there's three whys."},{"startTime":728.404,"endTime":731.855,"body":"in there, three segments of humans that would be interested in that."},{"startTime":731.855,"endTime":733.939,"body":"And they have completely different whys, right?"},{"startTime":733.939,"endTime":735.961,"body":"One would be nine-year-old girls."},{"startTime":735.961,"endTime":739.784,"body":"Nine-year-old girls want to play with My Little Pony, and they have various reasons for"},{"startTime":735.961,"endTime":739.784,"body":"doing that."},{"startTime":739.784,"endTime":740.805,"body":"That's their why."},{"startTime":740.805,"endTime":742.526,"body":"The second are collectors, right?"},{"startTime":742.526,"endTime":749.032,"body":"You know, people who look like the guy who runs the comic shop and the Simpsons, wanting"},{"startTime":742.526,"endTime":749.032,"body":"to collect every little My Little Pony for monetary reasons."},{"startTime":749.032,"endTime":756.376,"body":"And then there's a third, and that is there's a group, there's actually two groups, one"},{"startTime":749.032,"endTime":756.376,"body":"called the Bronies and one called the Pegasisters, their female counterparts."},{"startTime":756.376,"endTime":760.529,"body":"who celebrate the values of My Little Pony in a non-ironic way."},{"startTime":760.529,"endTime":765.853,"body":"And I would submit they probably are more engaged with the mythology of My Little Pony"},{"startTime":760.529,"endTime":765.853,"body":"than the other two."},{"startTime":765.853,"endTime":770.936,"body":"And they have very different whys for why they would engage in a show about My Little"},{"startTime":765.853,"endTime":770.936,"body":"Pony."},{"startTime":770.936,"endTime":775.159,"body":"So you have to get more specific than my show is for people who are interested in toys,"},{"startTime":770.936,"endTime":775.159,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":775.159,"endTime":776.003,"body":"Are they collectors?"},{"startTime":776.003,"endTime":777.008,"body":"Are they people who play with them?"},{"startTime":777.008,"endTime":778.622,"body":"Or are they people who celebrate the value?"},{"startTime":778.622,"endTime":782.545,"body":"Are they people who are engaged with the media properties that spawn from them, whatever."},{"startTime":782.545,"endTime":784.866,"body":"But different segments have different whys."},{"startTime":784.94,"endTime":794.537,"body":"And the more specific you can get on a segment on a human and their why, then the more"},{"startTime":784.94,"endTime":794.537,"body":"you've always got that in the back of your mind to pay that off."},{"startTime":794.537,"endTime":794.857,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":794.857,"endTime":798.639,"body":"And that's, that's the level of specificity and detail that I think you need."},{"startTime":798.639,"endTime":800.641,"body":"Something else you bring up here that I think is really important."},{"startTime":800.641,"endTime":804.753,"body":"I you to touch on is the importance of also knowing who you are not for within this."},{"startTime":804.753,"endTime":806.795,"body":"Can you just for a second riff on that?"},{"startTime":806.795,"endTime":807.045,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":807.045,"endTime":811.928,"body":"And the biggest example of this, the great outlier edge case in all of podcasting is Joe"},{"startTime":807.045,"endTime":811.928,"body":"Rogan."},{"startTime":811.928,"endTime":814.69,"body":"And the thing is, is that, you know, you will find."},{"startTime":814.814,"endTime":819.417,"body":"literally millions of podcast listeners who say, I would never listen to Joe Rogan."},{"startTime":819.417,"endTime":830.223,"body":"But part of that is that there are literally millions of podcast listeners for whom Joe"},{"startTime":819.417,"endTime":830.223,"body":"Rogan gives them what nobody else will, gives them a voice of some kind, right?"},{"startTime":830.223,"endTime":835.005,"body":"They are underserved by other channels and Joe does not pander to them."},{"startTime":835.005,"endTime":840.499,"body":"He commits to them at the expense of everyone else who's not part of that segment."},{"startTime":840.499,"endTime":843.246,"body":"And as a result, he gets about 12."},{"startTime":843.246,"endTime":847.318,"body":"13 million listeners a month because he super serves that audience."},{"startTime":847.318,"endTime":849.079,"body":"knows who he is not for."},{"startTime":849.079,"endTime":849.63,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":849.63,"endTime":859.815,"body":"And that I'm not condoning exactly what Joe Rogan does, but you know, I do admire his"},{"startTime":849.63,"endTime":859.815,"body":"taking a, know, having very clear sense of who he is not for and not caring about that."},{"startTime":859.815,"endTime":863.187,"body":"Not because he's super serving who he's for."},{"startTime":863.187,"endTime":872.744,"body":"And I'll close here by as a hotelier named Ian Schrager, who has a number of, he started a"},{"startTime":863.187,"endTime":872.744,"body":"number of boutique hotels all over the world and they spark a reaction."},{"startTime":872.744,"endTime":876.576,"body":"they are not, you you don't walk in thinking you're at a courtyard by Marriott."},{"startTime":876.576,"endTime":879.037,"body":"They will spark a reaction one way or another."},{"startTime":879.037,"endTime":885.399,"body":"And he's very famous for saying, I don't care if 90 % of the world hates me, if 10 % love"},{"startTime":879.037,"endTime":885.399,"body":"me."},{"startTime":885.399,"endTime":889.681,"body":"And if nobody loves your podcast, that's something that you need to work on."},{"startTime":889.681,"endTime":890.451,"body":"That's a good point."},{"startTime":890.451,"endTime":892.442,"body":"That's some deep work right there for sure."},{"startTime":892.442,"endTime":902.2,"body":"You know, an example of this with Podmatch and Podcasting Made Simple, the brands that I"},{"startTime":892.442,"endTime":902.2,"body":"run, we look at our avatar as a podcast host or guest."},{"startTime":902.2,"endTime":905.912,"body":"that is willing to financially invest in themselves for a better podcasting future."},{"startTime":905.912,"endTime":907.122,"body":"And that's where we draw the line the same."},{"startTime":907.122,"endTime":910.654,"body":"When somebody reached out and they're like, this is so stupid that you all are trying to"},{"startTime":907.122,"endTime":910.654,"body":"charge for this, right?"},{"startTime":910.654,"endTime":913.355,"body":"Like when we hear those things, we don't get offended or mad."},{"startTime":913.355,"endTime":917.006,"body":"We just say, we know in our heads that it's just not the person we serve."},{"startTime":917.006,"endTime":918.897,"body":"It's kind of like a attract and repel type of thing."},{"startTime":918.897,"endTime":921.218,"body":"But we know the people that are saying, yeah, I'm willing to invest."},{"startTime":921.218,"endTime":925.18,"body":"They love what we do because we definitely over provide value, right?"},{"startTime":925.18,"endTime":928.031,"body":"That's very, very important to us is we over deliver on the value that we provide."},{"startTime":928.031,"endTime":930.744,"body":"But we want to know, are you serious enough to put"},{"startTime":930.744,"endTime":935.437,"body":"put a few dollars in this little jar right here to show me that you're willing to take the"},{"startTime":930.744,"endTime":935.437,"body":"next step with me."},{"startTime":935.437,"endTime":937.731,"body":"So to your point there, we've drawn that line."},{"startTime":937.731,"endTime":942.583,"body":"I'm not saying I'm doing everything right, but it's just a practical example of what I"},{"startTime":937.731,"endTime":942.583,"body":"think this looks like in many ways."},{"startTime":942.583,"endTime":953.05,"body":"Yeah, and I'll give you an answer that I often, besides my, I'm starting my 20th year in"},{"startTime":942.583,"endTime":953.05,"body":"the podcast industry, but for 30 years I've been a media researcher and I've worked on"},{"startTime":953.05,"endTime":957.503,"body":"audience development for Howard Stern, for Elvis Theron, for All Things Considered."},{"startTime":957.503,"endTime":958.828,"body":"have a lot of..."},{"startTime":958.828,"endTime":962.079,"body":"big shows and audiences is what I work on under my belt."},{"startTime":962.079,"endTime":970.641,"body":"And often when I talk to people about some of the things that they do to make a better"},{"startTime":962.079,"endTime":970.641,"body":"show, even at the highest levels, people will say to me, well, you no one's going to do"},{"startTime":970.641,"endTime":970.921,"body":"that."},{"startTime":970.921,"endTime":972.532,"body":"No one's going to take the time to do that."},{"startTime":972.532,"endTime":974.192,"body":"No one's going to invest that much or whatever."},{"startTime":974.192,"endTime":977.583,"body":"And my answer to them is generally you're right."},{"startTime":977.583,"endTime":979.824,"body":"Only the best podcasters do."},{"startTime":979.924,"endTime":981.504,"body":"And then you figure out where you want to be."},{"startTime":981.504,"endTime":981.744,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":981.744,"endTime":987.616,"body":"And, and you know, like you don't deserve, you don't have a right to an audience, but if"},{"startTime":981.744,"endTime":987.616,"body":"you want one,"},{"startTime":988.152,"endTime":990.924,"body":"There's a way to it, but you got to do that work."},{"startTime":990.924,"endTime":992.045,"body":"Yeah, it's really good."},{"startTime":992.045,"endTime":997.109,"body":"Last thing I want to talk about on this, this avatar section, we'll move on here, is just"},{"startTime":992.045,"endTime":997.109,"body":"your podcast guest."},{"startTime":997.109,"endTime":1001.963,"body":"think it's a really great practice to ask your host, even before you're going on the show,"},{"startTime":997.109,"endTime":1001.963,"body":"who is your avatar?"},{"startTime":1001.963,"endTime":1003.555,"body":"Who is it that you're speaking to?"},{"startTime":1003.555,"endTime":1009.86,"body":"You're going to learn a lot about the show, the listener, how you should show up, but you"},{"startTime":1003.555,"endTime":1009.86,"body":"might also learn that, hey, this host doesn't really have this dialed in yet."},{"startTime":1009.86,"endTime":1013.152,"body":"And maybe if they're early in their stage, fine, get on there and help them with that,"},{"startTime":1009.86,"endTime":1013.152,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":1013.152,"endTime":1016.983,"body":"By the way that you present yourself and show up, it might become the most successful"},{"startTime":1013.152,"endTime":1016.983,"body":"episode they've ever had."},{"startTime":1016.983,"endTime":1018.222,"body":"And they might be like, wait,"},{"startTime":1018.222,"endTime":1019.272,"body":"there's something there, right?"},{"startTime":1019.272,"endTime":1021.394,"body":"That Tom spoke that no one else has ever done before."},{"startTime":1021.394,"endTime":1023.905,"body":"So I encourage you, don't say, okay, that's the host job."},{"startTime":1023.905,"endTime":1026.076,"body":"You as the guest, you should be informed of this and know this as well."},{"startTime":1026.076,"endTime":1028.468,"body":"Cause I find that that goes a really long way."},{"startTime":1028.468,"endTime":1032.09,"body":"And Tom, next thing I want to talk about here is making your podcast unique."},{"startTime":1032.09,"endTime":1040.164,"body":"I find that a lot of us want to have an audience, but we can't really offer them anything"},{"startTime":1032.09,"endTime":1040.164,"body":"unique or specific that there aren't other podcasts that are already doing it."},{"startTime":1040.164,"endTime":1041.935,"body":"Even our same vertical or niche."},{"startTime":1041.935,"endTime":1047.372,"body":"Can you talk about this point on how we can figure out how to make our podcast a bit more"},{"startTime":1041.935,"endTime":1047.372,"body":"unique so it really stands out?"},{"startTime":1047.372,"endTime":1047.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1047.732,"endTime":1052.706,"body":"Here's a way to think about your podcast that I think not everybody thinks about."},{"startTime":1052.706,"endTime":1053.846,"body":"And that is this."},{"startTime":1053.846,"endTime":1057.629,"body":"think a lot of people think about their podcast as another marketing channel."},{"startTime":1057.729,"endTime":1059.25,"body":"It is another marketing channel."},{"startTime":1059.25,"endTime":1061.922,"body":"is another place for me to put my marketing efforts."},{"startTime":1061.922,"endTime":1063.143,"body":"I'm also doing white papers."},{"startTime":1063.143,"endTime":1064.374,"body":"I'm also doing social media."},{"startTime":1064.374,"endTime":1065.755,"body":"I'm also doing all these things, right?"},{"startTime":1065.755,"endTime":1073.019,"body":"You know, people don't rush home from work and sit in front of the TV at eight o'clock for"},{"startTime":1065.755,"endTime":1073.019,"body":"a marketing channel."},{"startTime":1073.22,"endTime":1075.241,"body":"A podcast is an entertainment."},{"startTime":1075.261,"endTime":1077.202,"body":"A podcast is an entertainment."},{"startTime":1077.256,"endTime":1086.279,"body":"And if you don't think of your podcast as an entertainment beyond whatever topic you're"},{"startTime":1077.256,"endTime":1086.279,"body":"doing, beyond whatever, you know, audience you're serving, then your podcast is no"},{"startTime":1086.279,"endTime":1087.509,"body":"different, right?"},{"startTime":1087.509,"endTime":1092.11,"body":"Then it's just simply an extremely inefficient way to transmit information."},{"startTime":1092.11,"endTime":1093.551,"body":"I'd rather just read it."},{"startTime":1093.551,"endTime":1101.353,"body":"You know, my, my warning sign for podcast is always if, if I, know, if people are always"},{"startTime":1093.551,"endTime":1101.353,"body":"telling me, I listened to your podcast on 1.7 or 1.9."},{"startTime":1101.353,"endTime":1106.624,"body":"I'm like, well, then I have a lousy podcast because you don't watch your favorite shows"},{"startTime":1101.353,"endTime":1106.624,"body":"that way."},{"startTime":1106.626,"endTime":1107.947,"body":"You know, you really need to think about that."},{"startTime":1107.947,"endTime":1115.21,"body":"So there's a great quote from, there's this fantastic musical by Steven Sondheim called"},{"startTime":1107.947,"endTime":1115.21,"body":"Sunday in the Park with George."},{"startTime":1115.471,"endTime":1119.783,"body":"And it's about the artist, George Surratt, who painted with little dots, it's pointillism."},{"startTime":1119.783,"endTime":1124.976,"body":"So instead of just like painting a park, he would put a million dots on a, and drove"},{"startTime":1119.783,"endTime":1124.976,"body":"everybody crazy with it."},{"startTime":1125.096,"endTime":1130.779,"body":"And, know, at the end of it, he, would look like a lovely picture of the park, like"},{"startTime":1125.096,"endTime":1130.779,"body":"another talented artist might do."},{"startTime":1130.779,"endTime":1135.842,"body":"But the quote that I love is, love from it is anything you do, let it come from you."},{"startTime":1135.842,"endTime":1137.222,"body":"And then it will be new."},{"startTime":1137.363,"endTime":1147.628,"body":"And that's, that's the kind of secret sauce of it is the marriage of the, why your"},{"startTime":1137.363,"endTime":1147.628,"body":"audience is listening to you and the why you want to serve them is actually going to"},{"startTime":1147.628,"endTime":1149.649,"body":"create something unique."},{"startTime":1149.649,"endTime":1158.413,"body":"It is going to create a unique marriage, a unique intersection that, that, that secret"},{"startTime":1149.649,"endTime":1158.413,"body":"sauce that you can lean into and create an entertainment from."},{"startTime":1158.413,"endTime":1160.546,"body":"And, know, the example I'll give here."},{"startTime":1160.546,"endTime":1166.908,"body":"And it really comes from knowing your audience is, you know, a podcast I listen to a lot"},{"startTime":1160.546,"endTime":1166.908,"body":"is an ostensibly a sports podcast, the Ryan Russo show."},{"startTime":1166.908,"endTime":1173.139,"body":"And at the end of every episode, which is normally a sports interview, he sits down with"},{"startTime":1166.908,"endTime":1173.139,"body":"his younger producer."},{"startTime":1173.139,"endTime":1177.451,"body":"Like he has a, like a gen Z producer and a millennial producer in there as well."},{"startTime":1177.451,"endTime":1183.092,"body":"And he's a little older and they do this thing called life advice where he essentially is"},{"startTime":1177.451,"endTime":1183.092,"body":"like the big brother."},{"startTime":1183.092,"endTime":1186.393,"body":"Many people didn't have, or like the uncle they never got to talk to."},{"startTime":1186.393,"endTime":1190.464,"body":"And he talks to these like 20 to 30 year old men, mostly."},{"startTime":1190.464,"endTime":1193.145,"body":"about how to deal with their landlord and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1193.145,"endTime":1195.576,"body":"It's like stuff that they're not getting from somewhere else."},{"startTime":1195.576,"endTime":1196.826,"body":"And it's wildly entertaining."},{"startTime":1196.826,"endTime":1198.797,"body":"It's got nothing to do with sports."},{"startTime":1198.797,"endTime":1203.358,"body":"And it's what makes his show different than any other sports show because he's figured out"},{"startTime":1198.797,"endTime":1203.358,"body":"his audience."},{"startTime":1203.358,"endTime":1209.52,"body":"my audience are young men who are out of the nest, out of college, and they're all lost a"},{"startTime":1203.358,"endTime":1209.52,"body":"little bit."},{"startTime":1209.52,"endTime":1211.954,"body":"What else do they have in common besides sports?"},{"startTime":1211.954,"endTime":1214.041,"body":"Well, let me speak to that a little too."},{"startTime":1214.041,"endTime":1217.102,"body":"And again, it's all from the knowledge of your audience."},{"startTime":1217.102,"endTime":1222.002,"body":"It's so helpful, like so useful thing about that because I think many of us were like,"},{"startTime":1217.102,"endTime":1222.002,"body":"okay, I have a sports podcast."},{"startTime":1222.002,"endTime":1223.062,"body":"How do I do it different?"},{"startTime":1223.062,"endTime":1224.672,"body":"You figure out who your audience is, what they want."},{"startTime":1224.672,"endTime":1231.382,"body":"Like that, that back and forth that like advice from a previous generation to the upcoming"},{"startTime":1224.672,"endTime":1231.382,"body":"generation is a really cool twist on it."},{"startTime":1231.382,"endTime":1234.472,"body":"I really respect the fact that he was able to kind of figure out that angle."},{"startTime":1234.472,"endTime":1235.522,"body":"That's really cool."},{"startTime":1235.522,"endTime":1237.892,"body":"The next thing I want to talk about here is the one that might scare some people off."},{"startTime":1237.892,"endTime":1239.632,"body":"So everyone buckle up, hold on here."},{"startTime":1239.632,"endTime":1241.962,"body":"I'm editing your podcast and I wrote this down."},{"startTime":1241.962,"endTime":1244.142,"body":"I want to read it real quick here because I don't want to mess it up."},{"startTime":1244.142,"endTime":1245.654,"body":"It's on page 131."},{"startTime":1245.654,"endTime":1251.537,"body":"of your book and it says, if you want to grow an audience and you're not editing your"},{"startTime":1245.654,"endTime":1251.537,"body":"podcast, you're making a big mistake."},{"startTime":1251.578,"endTime":1252.646,"body":"I totally agree with this."},{"startTime":1252.646,"endTime":1255.44,"body":"I'm going to give one quick example and turn it over to you, Tom."},{"startTime":1255.72,"endTime":1258.402,"body":"The most common thing I hear on a brand new podcast is this."},{"startTime":1258.402,"endTime":1260.868,"body":"I'll just do the introduction of every single one of their episodes."},{"startTime":1260.868,"endTime":1262.109,"body":"They might have 10, they might have 15."},{"startTime":1262.109,"endTime":1263.124,"body":"This is it."},{"startTime":1263.845,"endTime":1264.945,"body":"Long pause."},{"startTime":1265.426,"endTime":1265.91,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1265.91,"endTime":1266.787,"body":"We're recording."},{"startTime":1266.787,"endTime":1267.527,"body":"You ready?"},{"startTime":1267.527,"endTime":1268.048,"body":"Yeah, you ready?"},{"startTime":1268.048,"endTime":1268.648,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1268.648,"endTime":1270.809,"body":"Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast."},{"startTime":1270.809,"endTime":1271.852,"body":"And that's in there."},{"startTime":1271.852,"endTime":1278.447,"body":"And I'm like, man, if you could just remove that weird 10 seconds, we'd already be doing"},{"startTime":1271.852,"endTime":1278.447,"body":"so much better, right?"},{"startTime":1278.447,"endTime":1282.289,"body":"Can you just talk to the importance of editing and why it matters?"},{"startTime":1282.289,"endTime":1284.011,"body":"There's three levels of editing, Alex."},{"startTime":1284.011,"endTime":1286.292,"body":"Level zero is I don't do any."},{"startTime":1286.292,"endTime":1293.537,"body":"And the people who don't do any often may not make the time for it and they'll rationalize"},{"startTime":1286.292,"endTime":1293.537,"body":"it by saying, I want to keep it authentic."},{"startTime":1293.537,"endTime":1300.77,"body":"Well, authentic to me is expressing my ideas in the clearest way possible so that they are"},{"startTime":1293.537,"endTime":1300.77,"body":"adapted and value is created from them."},{"startTime":1300.77,"endTime":1305.053,"body":"And if I didn't do that live, then it's not authentic for me to let that sit out there."},{"startTime":1305.053,"endTime":1307.365,"body":"So authentic is what you call authentic, right?"},{"startTime":1307.365,"endTime":1308.085,"body":"That's level zero."},{"startTime":1308.085,"endTime":1310.947,"body":"I don't do any level one is what I call hygiene editing."},{"startTime":1310.947,"endTime":1313.519,"body":"And that is you go through and you remove those things."},{"startTime":1313.519,"endTime":1317.672,"body":"You remove mistakes, you remove somebody coughing or saying, wait, can we do that again?"},{"startTime":1317.672,"endTime":1321.064,"body":"Or back earlier in this podcast when I clapped, but you're not going to remove it."},{"startTime":1321.064,"endTime":1321.925,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":1321.925,"endTime":1325.327,"body":"You know, like that's, that's I think what a lot of people think."},{"startTime":1325.327,"endTime":1326.828,"body":"Here's the next level of editing."},{"startTime":1326.828,"endTime":1330.43,"body":"The next level of editing is listening back to your show carefully."},{"startTime":1330.476,"endTime":1336.949,"body":"and asking yourself is the order that things tumbled out in live the best order for this"},{"startTime":1330.476,"endTime":1336.949,"body":"information to be presented?"},{"startTime":1336.949,"endTime":1343.231,"body":"Did something come up later in that interview that would have served the interview better"},{"startTime":1336.949,"endTime":1343.231,"body":"if the audience knew it earlier in the interview?"},{"startTime":1343.231,"endTime":1349.114,"body":"What is the next question the audience is going to ask after every piece of information in"},{"startTime":1343.231,"endTime":1349.114,"body":"your podcast?"},{"startTime":1349.114,"endTime":1354.736,"body":"And if the next thing they hear was the next question they were going to ask, that's"},{"startTime":1349.114,"endTime":1354.736,"body":"brilliant."},{"startTime":1354.736,"endTime":1359.208,"body":"And that's the real top tier of editing and that's editing for a narrative arc."},{"startTime":1359.246,"endTime":1366.026,"body":"You know, here's the thing, if you're a guest, this is where you can actually determine"},{"startTime":1359.246,"endTime":1366.026,"body":"once again, if a podcast is gonna be good for you to be on."},{"startTime":1366.026,"endTime":1369.076,"body":"I always am a big proponent, before I go on a podcast, I wanna listen to it."},{"startTime":1369.076,"endTime":1371.446,"body":"Before I have a guest on, I listen to them on other podcasts."},{"startTime":1371.446,"endTime":1374.326,"body":"I just think it's a good practice to kind of hear what you're getting into."},{"startTime":1374.326,"endTime":1375.446,"body":"Listen for this."},{"startTime":1375.446,"endTime":1381.156,"body":"So join into a podcast and if you're like two minutes in, you're like, man, this seems"},{"startTime":1375.446,"endTime":1381.156,"body":"very advanced for this far, right?"},{"startTime":1381.156,"endTime":1383.666,"body":"Is it advancing the plot, as you say in the book, Tom?"},{"startTime":1383.666,"endTime":1386.266,"body":"Like, is it actually kind of moving the narrative forward?"},{"startTime":1386.266,"endTime":1387.722,"body":"And so if you're a guest,"},{"startTime":1387.722,"endTime":1390.103,"body":"Listen for that and also show up and do that."},{"startTime":1390.103,"endTime":1395.284,"body":"So like not just listen for if you're like, I'm going to be on the show show up in that"},{"startTime":1390.103,"endTime":1395.284,"body":"way saying, okay, can I help advance this?"},{"startTime":1395.284,"endTime":1397.402,"body":"And another thing you talk about was making judgment calls."},{"startTime":1397.402,"endTime":1400.455,"body":"And I think as a guest, I do this a lot."},{"startTime":1400.455,"endTime":1403.826,"body":"A host will ask me a question that I know is going to take the interview in a wrong"},{"startTime":1400.455,"endTime":1403.826,"body":"direction."},{"startTime":1403.826,"endTime":1409.588,"body":"I will very shortly answer, but kind of nicely redirect in my own response to kind of"},{"startTime":1403.826,"endTime":1409.588,"body":"bring it back on track."},{"startTime":1409.588,"endTime":1411.839,"body":"And maybe I'm an air quote here."},{"startTime":1411.839,"endTime":1417.646,"body":"That's a pro move because I've done a lot of interviews, but the reality is I know, cause"},{"startTime":1411.839,"endTime":1417.646,"body":"they've explained me where they want to go with it."},{"startTime":1417.646,"endTime":1419.456,"body":"And so I want to make sure that I kind of help it go there."},{"startTime":1419.456,"endTime":1424.706,"body":"We don't jump off on little tangents around the way that are not going to really, like we"},{"startTime":1419.456,"endTime":1424.706,"body":"said, not going to advance the plot or the narrative."},{"startTime":1424.706,"endTime":1430.866,"body":"And so I think that I don't want to spend too much time editing because a lot of people"},{"startTime":1424.706,"endTime":1430.866,"body":"kind of glaze over on, but that's, those are important points right there."},{"startTime":1430.866,"endTime":1434.006,"body":"know, here's something I think that's important to both hosts and guests."},{"startTime":1434.006,"endTime":1437.926,"body":"And I say this as someone who's been a public speaker for over two decades."},{"startTime":1437.926,"endTime":1441.236,"body":"And you know, I, I do a lot of public speaking into a lot of keynotes."},{"startTime":1441.236,"endTime":1445.566,"body":"do, you know, not just in podcasting, all over the world and in various industries."},{"startTime":1445.566,"endTime":1446.424,"body":"And the one."},{"startTime":1446.424,"endTime":1450.256,"body":"Piece of advice I always give people who walk in, they say, I have these bullet points."},{"startTime":1450.256,"endTime":1452.056,"body":"I know what bullet points I need to hit."},{"startTime":1452.096,"endTime":1452.937,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1452.937,"endTime":1456.098,"body":"If you're going to be explicit about something, script your transitions."},{"startTime":1456.158,"endTime":1458.539,"body":"Script the glue that goes between them."},{"startTime":1458.539,"endTime":1464.042,"body":"Don't settle for, and another thing I want to talk about, and the next thing I want to"},{"startTime":1458.539,"endTime":1464.042,"body":"say, those are crap transitions."},{"startTime":1464.042,"endTime":1471.145,"body":"If you can't write a really great transition that justifies why point B follows point A,"},{"startTime":1464.042,"endTime":1471.145,"body":"then point B should not follow point A."},{"startTime":1471.145,"endTime":1474.914,"body":"And I think if you have that knowledge in your head as a guest or as a host,"},{"startTime":1474.914,"endTime":1476.975,"body":"then you're always going to follow a narrative arc."},{"startTime":1476.975,"endTime":1479.718,"body":"And you're not just going to be, got to get my bullet points in there."},{"startTime":1479.718,"endTime":1481.54,"body":"Why is this bullet point next?"},{"startTime":1481.54,"endTime":1483.642,"body":"Because that's not necessarily how an audience listens."},{"startTime":1483.642,"endTime":1489.667,"body":"An audience will have a question in their head and they'll hope you answer it next."},{"startTime":1489.667,"endTime":1491.829,"body":"And that's what the transitions are all about."},{"startTime":1491.829,"endTime":1498.222,"body":"And that's the thing to really get explicit about when you're structuring a show is what's"},{"startTime":1491.829,"endTime":1498.222,"body":"the glue between your bullet points."},{"startTime":1498.222,"endTime":1500.782,"body":"Man, you know, this brings up the kind of last thing I want to land with here."},{"startTime":1500.782,"endTime":1502.502,"body":"And again, state of podcasting here, right?"},{"startTime":1502.502,"endTime":1506.722,"body":"And we're talking about from the pulse perspective of the top question we're getting in"},{"startTime":1502.502,"endTime":1506.722,"body":"podcasting."},{"startTime":1506.722,"endTime":1509.142,"body":"Tom's heard it for twice as long as I have."},{"startTime":1509.142,"endTime":1511.182,"body":"He's been in the industry twice as long as I have."},{"startTime":1511.182,"endTime":1518.942,"body":"And at the end of the day, what we're talking about here is kind of landing here is"},{"startTime":1511.182,"endTime":1518.942,"body":"creating a recommendable podcast, as you call it, is like the recommendability of it,"},{"startTime":1518.942,"endTime":1519.222,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":1519.222,"endTime":1519.822,"body":"Within the book."},{"startTime":1519.822,"endTime":1522.412,"body":"And I want to turn it over to you kind of like where we land this thing."},{"startTime":1522.412,"endTime":1526.382,"body":"Like our final thought here is this is how we get more listeners and this is what"},{"startTime":1526.382,"endTime":1528.662,"body":"people want in podcasting on either side of the mic."},{"startTime":1528.662,"endTime":1533.122,"body":"Can you just talk about this idea of building a podcast is truly recommendable?"},{"startTime":1533.122,"endTime":1541.202,"body":"Yeah, everything that we've talked about so far about making an audience driven show,"},{"startTime":1533.122,"endTime":1541.202,"body":"about making a show that some people love, even at the expense of others, something that's"},{"startTime":1541.202,"endTime":1545.682,"body":"about something specific and something that addresses who the listener is when they're at"},{"startTime":1541.202,"endTime":1545.682,"body":"home."},{"startTime":1546.102,"endTime":1548.002,"body":"Let's stipulate all of that."},{"startTime":1548.002,"endTime":1549.482,"body":"But trust me, that's some work."},{"startTime":1549.482,"endTime":1554.382,"body":"The thing about a podcast, you know, the definition of podcasting has changed a lot,"},{"startTime":1549.482,"endTime":1554.382,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":1554.69,"endTime":1563.396,"body":"You know, now a lot of things are called a podcast that maybe the founding fathers did not"},{"startTime":1554.69,"endTime":1563.396,"body":"imagine when, the first RSS feed was, was transcribed with feather pen."},{"startTime":1563.396,"endTime":1566.758,"body":"But the key to it to me is to be where your audience is."},{"startTime":1566.858,"endTime":1567.459,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1567.459,"endTime":1568.53,"body":"That's table stakes."},{"startTime":1568.53,"endTime":1576.875,"body":"I think you can't say wherever you get your podcasts, if you're not there, because some"},{"startTime":1568.53,"endTime":1576.875,"body":"people like get their podcasts in places that you have not yet dreamed of or places that"},{"startTime":1576.875,"endTime":1579.177,"body":"you have ignored anything from sound cloud to YouTube."},{"startTime":1579.177,"endTime":1579.707,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1579.707,"endTime":1581.068,"body":"So be where they are."},{"startTime":1581.068,"endTime":1584.16,"body":"think live where they are."},{"startTime":1584.172,"endTime":1585.142,"body":"is the next thing."},{"startTime":1585.142,"endTime":1590.304,"body":"Don't just treat every one of these channels if you're really going to be there as another"},{"startTime":1585.142,"endTime":1590.304,"body":"Coke machine that sells your Coke."},{"startTime":1590.304,"endTime":1592.125,"body":"You've got to hang out there a little bit."},{"startTime":1592.125,"endTime":1594.725,"body":"And then the final thing is to love where they are."},{"startTime":1594.725,"endTime":1597.606,"body":"And to me, that is craft."},{"startTime":1597.606,"endTime":1599.527,"body":"If you're going to go to YouTube, right?"},{"startTime":1599.527,"endTime":1605.969,"body":"And you just put your podcast as it is up on YouTube, you're not going to succeed that"},{"startTime":1599.527,"endTime":1605.969,"body":"way, right?"},{"startTime":1605.969,"endTime":1609.526,"body":"You need to create something that is native to that medium."},{"startTime":1609.526,"endTime":1614.631,"body":"even if that's not your podcast, but it's a thing that is a thing unto itself that pays"},{"startTime":1609.526,"endTime":1614.631,"body":"off immediately."},{"startTime":1614.631,"endTime":1615.793,"body":"That's not a trailer."},{"startTime":1615.793,"endTime":1616.994,"body":"It's not a tease."},{"startTime":1616.994,"endTime":1618.935,"body":"It's a thing that works on YouTube."},{"startTime":1619.116,"endTime":1622.429,"body":"And if people like that, maybe they'll want a deeper engagement with you."},{"startTime":1622.429,"endTime":1624.902,"body":"Maybe they'll look for your longer show or something like that."},{"startTime":1624.902,"endTime":1627.425,"body":"But you've got to be where the audience is."},{"startTime":1627.425,"endTime":1630.798,"body":"You've got to live where they are and you've got to love where they are."},{"startTime":1630.798,"endTime":1632.91,"body":"Don't expect to pull them somewhere else."},{"startTime":1633.006,"endTime":1639.766,"body":"You know, when I think of these three things, I go back to your book and something that"},{"startTime":1633.006,"endTime":1639.766,"body":"kind of you tied all together with is it's creating a safe space for listeners."},{"startTime":1639.766,"endTime":1644.726,"body":"And when I read that in the book, I was like, man, like, if you really love it, right, you"},{"startTime":1639.766,"endTime":1644.726,"body":"go through those three things, you end up that, like, I love it."},{"startTime":1644.726,"endTime":1645.826,"body":"Like that's a safe space."},{"startTime":1645.826,"endTime":1648.216,"body":"Like where there's love, there's usually safety involved in it."},{"startTime":1648.216,"endTime":1651.196,"body":"And I couldn't get this old meme out of my head."},{"startTime":1651.196,"endTime":1653.356,"body":"And it's been in podcasting as long as I have."},{"startTime":1653.356,"endTime":1662.254,"body":"I don't know who made it, but it is a girl probably in her late teen years sitting with"},{"startTime":1653.356,"endTime":1662.254,"body":"headphones on, holding a phone, sitting next to a cardboard wall that has three"},{"startTime":1662.254,"endTime":1667.194,"body":"people on it laughing and she's sitting there laughing and she's like listening to my"},{"startTime":1662.254,"endTime":1667.194,"body":"podcast like I'm sitting with my best friends."},{"startTime":1667.194,"endTime":1673.634,"body":"And the reality is if you can create that experience, can make people feel like they're"},{"startTime":1667.194,"endTime":1673.634,"body":"involved, they can feel loved, they can feel heard."},{"startTime":1673.634,"endTime":1675.994,"body":"Man, that's a podcast that someone's gonna recommend."},{"startTime":1675.994,"endTime":1679.394,"body":"Like they're actually going to want to share that because they feel like they're part of"},{"startTime":1675.994,"endTime":1679.394,"body":"the actual narrative."},{"startTime":1679.394,"endTime":1680.994,"body":"They're part of the process of it."},{"startTime":1680.994,"endTime":1683.794,"body":"And so I love that you're able to kind of tie it all together like that."},{"startTime":1683.794,"endTime":1688.654,"body":"Tom, I'm turn back over to you if you have any quick final thought, word of wisdom you"},{"startTime":1683.794,"endTime":1688.654,"body":"want to end us with today before we close out."},{"startTime":1688.654,"endTime":1692.098,"body":"Yeah, just on that point you just brought up as a point,"},{"startTime":1692.098,"endTime":1693.498,"body":"deeply care about deeply."},{"startTime":1693.498,"endTime":1695.799,"body":"Best example of this in the world to me is car talk."},{"startTime":1695.799,"endTime":1702.781,"body":"If I explained car talk to you as it's a show about people calling in with problems with"},{"startTime":1695.799,"endTime":1702.781,"body":"their cars and two mechanics help them fix them."},{"startTime":1702.781,"endTime":1704.361,"body":"That sounds terrible, right?"},{"startTime":1704.361,"endTime":1717.165,"body":"But what it is, is it's a safe space for smart people who feel frustrated about this thing"},{"startTime":1704.361,"endTime":1717.165,"body":"that they don't actually know anything about to be stupid and not get laughed at."},{"startTime":1717.165,"endTime":1718.655,"body":"And believe me, that's gold."},{"startTime":1718.655,"endTime":1720.226,"body":"That's what car talk does."},{"startTime":1720.226,"endTime":1721.516,"body":"Smart people"},{"startTime":1721.528,"endTime":1730.637,"body":"who never learned how to fix a car, but don't want to be made to feel stupid, calling into"},{"startTime":1721.528,"endTime":1730.637,"body":"a safe place with warm, intelligent, friendly people, made to feel like they're not"},{"startTime":1730.637,"endTime":1735.492,"body":"stupid, having their problem solved by people who laugh with them and not laugh at them."},{"startTime":1735.533,"endTime":1740.738,"body":"Now you put that into a show description, I don't know that it works, but it sure works,"},{"startTime":1735.533,"endTime":1740.738,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":1740.738,"endTime":1742.28,"body":"And that's what it's all about."},{"startTime":1742.28,"endTime":1742.8,"body":"I love it."},{"startTime":1742.8,"endTime":1745.142,"body":"Tom, thank you again for this book."},{"startTime":1745.176,"endTime":1746.127,"body":"The audience is listening."},{"startTime":1746.127,"endTime":1747.289,"body":"Absolutely love this."},{"startTime":1747.289,"endTime":1749.181,"body":"Again, the best read I've ever done in podcasting."},{"startTime":1749.181,"endTime":1749.789,"body":"So thank you for that."},{"startTime":1749.789,"endTime":1752.515,"body":"And thank you for your contribution in podcasting and for being with us today."},{"startTime":1752.515,"endTime":1753.937,"body":"I really appreciate your time."},{"startTime":1753.937,"endTime":1755.118,"body":"Thanks Alex."},{"startTime":1755.399,"endTime":1759.365,"body":"For more episodes, please visit podmatch.com forward slash episodes."},{"startTime":1759.365,"endTime":1761.126,"body":"Thank you so much for listening."}]}