Shubz: Called a Kūpapa for Talking to the Wrong People

Shubz has been called a kūpapa. The word describes Māori who sided with the Crown in the New Zealand Wars, and it still gets thrown at Māori accused of betraying their own. Shubz gets it for having David Seymour on his show.

Shubz hosts "Shubz Says So" on Radio Aotearoa. His method is simple: talk to people you disagree with, in public, without the gotcha. That has meant long conversations with David Seymour, Brian Tamaki, Don Brash and others, and it has cost him standing in parts of his own community.

He sits down here with Dane Giraud, host of Free to Speak and a Council member of the Free Speech Union, who knows the same pressure from inside the Jewish community, where the equivalent word is Kapo. Both men arrive at the same question from different directions: what happens to free speech when the heaviest penalty for dissent comes not from the state but from your own people?

They cover the gap between kaupapa and kūpapa, why Shubz argues Te Pāti Māori does not speak for all Māori, blood quantum and who gets to decide who counts, how little either side of the Treaty debate often knows about the history, and his argument that funding and self-preservation explain more about who polices the line than culture does.

It also goes somewhere harder. Shubz is an advocate against sexual abuse, and he asks why a movement that filled the streets over the Treaty could not turn out for Sam Troth's hīkoi for survivors. He talks about what people brought to him on his own journey around Te Ika-a-Māui, and about being offered money to stop talking.

Dane pushes back, particularly on whether a small community is ever right to keep its disagreements in-house. Neither man lands quite where you would expect.

Content note: this episode includes discussion of child sexual abuse, including a survivor's account, and strong language throughout. Support is available. Safe to Talk: 0800 044 334 or text 4334. Male Survivors Aotearoa: malesurvivors.nz. Victim Support: 0800 842 846.

Mentioned in this episode:
Shubz Says So on Radio Aotearoa: https://shubzlive.com
The Road to Healing Aotearoa (Sam Troth): https://www.theroadtohealing.co.nz

Free to Speak is the official podcast of the New Zealand Free Speech Union: uncensored conversations on free speech, civil liberties, and the people defending them. Hosted by Dane Giraud.

Join the Free Speech Union: https://www.fsu.nz/join
Support our work: https://www.fsu.nz/donate
Newsletter: https://www.fsu.nz/subscribe
Website: https://www.fsu.nz

Got feedback or a guest suggestion? podcast@fsu.nz

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Shubs

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Free to Speak, the New Zealand Free Speech Union podcast. If you enjoy the show, subscribe for uncensored conversations and free speech news from New Zealand and beyond.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

And joining me today, very special guest, Schubs of Shubs says on Radio Altiodore. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Shubs live in the building, baby! Free speech union. I love free speech. I'm all about free speech. Let's go, Dangerot. Awesome, awesome.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

So look, we've got a topic that it's it obviously you're getting a lot of uh crap for this. I get crap for it too, uh, from my community and the smaller communities, a lot of the the larger communities probably don't have to put up with stuff like this, but it's the concept of the co-popper. So the coop or the coup papa, coop. The trader, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man, you know, I pride myself on my Māori and everything, and I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

The couple of the Koopa, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

The co-popper of the Koopa because I said that eight. I said co-popper coup papa. We'll talk about, we'll have our co-popper will be Koopapa, and then I I screwed it up. But you know, that's natural. So, okay, so let's talk about that. What

What The Traitor Label Means

SPEAKER_02 1:20

is a coupap?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

What is a coup papa? So oh coup papa to me, it's obviously well, from my understanding, you know, the word coupap is thrown out to people that uh seem to be traitors to their own kind, you know, or meaning their own or Maori, right? Commonly use it for those that uh sided with the British during colonial times, you know, during colonization and whatnot, because they were a lot of Maori, because the British didn't achieve uh, you know, taking over a lot of this place without the help from Maori. A lot of Maori were actually awarded medals and were you know soldiers that were revered by the British. And obviously, Maori were very uh great war tactitioners themselves. I mean, trench warfare power sites were you know, obviously people know about that stuff, and you know, people even use some of our tactics and uh wars that followed later on. So, yeah, Koopapa, from my understanding, is someone who's uh was a traitor to the people who jumped on the side of the British to fight against other Maori.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

And of course, that's uh that's a uh term now that's being used today, and sometimes he even gets leveled at yourself, eh brother?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Oh, every day, every day, yeah, every day, depending on the crowd. And you know what? I'm sort of looking at it as a term of endearment these days, you know. If you're a coup papa, it just means you don't go against the you didn't you don't go with the grain, you you go, you make your own way.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

So so so what so what are what are some

David Seymour And Treaty Politics

SPEAKER_02 2:50

of the reasons why? Like uh obviously uh your friendship and and talking to David Seymour is one of them, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Oh yeah, that's a big one, Seymour. Because he's obviously he's obviously looked at as a coup popper because he wanted to push through this treaty principles bill, right? Which was obviously something that um was to define what are these principles within the treaty that all people talk about a lot, whether it's in court, in in politics, in parliament, or even in councils, right? They bring up all that goes against the the principles of the treaty. And David's not a new guide to this whole treaty principles thing. That was actually some legislation brought out, or you know, to try and uh you know define what these principles were, like in the 70s, I believe. So yeah, I can't I can't remember. I'm not don't quote me exactly if it was the 70s, either 70s or 80s, I think it was the 70s, the first time that that idea had come around. And obviously, Rodney Hired himself, former actor boss man, leader, he also uh put through a little uh well tried to push a little bill similar. But what say, in my opinion, what this what the other side has done is gone and used it as a political football to go, see look to Seymour, he's the Koop Upper, he hates all the Maudis, he's he's from Gnapu. When really, if you think about it, uh and I put up a reel this morning, speaking of the whole Koop Upper thing, is uh I had Seymour on yesterday and he talked about, and I said, you know what, you're actually in line with Nui. Like you think of Huniheke, right? A lot of people know Honey Heke chopped down the flagpole and all that many times, even though he did sign the treaty, he went against it. Well, David Seymour says, Well, Huniheke was really a tax revolt, I'm just continuing it now. And if you understand what acts stand for, they are libertarians, right? And a lot of their their policies are around less government intervention on your life, less government, like less taxes, making uh doing more with the poot here that that's available and not trying to suck every dollar out of the out of the people, right? That's what libertarians pretty much stand for, right? And then people don't know that and they wouldn't listen to that because now they've painted Seymour and just he's the worst human in the world. The crazy thing is now, because I've had him on a bit and we have Jansen now have personal conversations with him, I can ring him and then you know, can uh text him up and that, and um people that are of that elk of that that side of Maori that believed what say it our woody waitity and all the rest of them say about because don't forget they created this whole march off the back of David Seymour and their treaty principles bill, right? Toy to te ti. And even me, bro, I was over in Aussie, and I was like, Oh yeah, get up my cousin, you know, do your thing too much. But I wasn't really tapping into the politics side of it at home, even though I had been very politically aware since I was a kid. I I wasn't living at home, so I didn't really I wasn't as fully tapped in, you know what I mean? And uh, so yeah, I took with the co-pop, but they had some uh some actions over in Perth where you could go and you know get amongst it and catch up, you know, you could go go and uh you know, wave your little flags for the people back home, you know. Look, they're gonna go give it to the Seymour guy. But I was just going off the the understanding of everybody else, of just what I had been fed. But I also didn't look too much into it, so that's my own fault. Um yeah, and then I I believe that the Tepati Maori and that used it as a political football. Another thing that's

Distractions And State Care Abuse

SPEAKER_01 6:10

interesting about that is when that was happening, when they were all gathering up in the north, there was also this big push. Um, I don't know if you have you talked to Sam Um Trough? No, Road to Healing Ulti at all. Have you heard of him? Uh uh no. So he so he he's a guy that's huge in the against sexual abuse, and that which I am too, and uh like a lot of people know me because of that, before all of this politics stuff. Um, and he did a thing where he like walked the lengths of New Zealand and like uh put out all the cones for all the people who'd been uh touched for for abuse in state care and stuff like that. And like none of the politicians came out and took to him. Um, you know, sort of a thing much there. And it's all about and he was trying to get down the the mandatory uh minimum sentencing down or up, sorry, to eight years minimum if you get done for uh sexual violence, you know. So he was trying to push for that. He's also pushing a bill at the moment to get rid of good character references. Uh it doesn't mean Mahi, brother. Mean Mahi.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

So suppression and things. Is he against suppression and things?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you but you know how not you know you know how um people also have like they can get part of their sentence knocked down after they've been convicted with good character references, like you know, we've got Johnny here, you know, he's a good bloke, he does so much for his community, but he also fucks kids. So let's like knock his sentence down. So he's trying to say, well, well, good character references shouldn't be admissible and yeah, I mean, yeah, once you cross that line, you you're not of good character. Good character shouldn't matter. So he's going, you know, he does that kind of and um and then he he filled me in and so did others when all of that stuff was happening, it's all about distractions, right? Um, then all of those uh abuses and state care were starting to be read out in uh down in down in Wellington, and there was only like a couple of couple of people there, we're like along with them to like you know why why aren't there these people here marching for this? Like, because this is uh not just a Maori issue, it's across the board, you know, sexual abuse is a human issue, yeah. So so much in there, and I'm I'm not I'm not saying that uh Tepathi Māori knew that that was happening, and then they did that distraction up and and brought everybody, let's march the parliament now. And I'm not saying that everybody that marched for Toy Tutiti was uh, you know, knew that they're sort of being, I think, duped or scammed, just turned into uh because it just turned into a clothing label, pretty much. And then the money went all of these different places, which I've revealed in my videos. Uh some of the places that the money went to, which was really interesting, especially the donations went to Honey Haruida's um antrust. And then the crack up thing is as soon as I brought that to light, then next minute all the all the minions are getting in contact with me, trying to like make it oh, you know, sush or like, yeah, we've got receipts, and I was getting sent like photos of receipts, like warehouse receipts and that. Like, these are all the receipts. I know people that sent like thousands of dollars to this bloody cause, you know, for this toy to t we're gonna save the you know the Maori nation and all that. But it was just oh no, to me, is this a scam?

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yeah, but I tell you what's interesting, and what you really highlight there, uh it's uh like if you think of woke causes, right? And

Who Gets To Speak For Māori

SPEAKER_02 9:20

a lot of Pakia were were right into the um right into that march, but you know, and I'm the first to admit it myself. Uh like we start to talk about treaty, and and I I I feel dragged out into dark waters, deep waters pretty quickly because I I don't have that historic knowledge, you know. And I'm a guy that worked 10 years in bilingual programming and writing comedies for Maori TV and all sorts of stuff. I still don't have the confidence to really get down into it because we were just weren't taught a lot of that stuff at school. So I'm aware that there's a lot of people on both sides of the debate, on both sides of the debate, the anti-Māori who who can really annoy me, and and the like the people that are the pro a type of Maori, the uh the TMP Pakia, who they're like it's it's a whole it's a clash of people that that know very little about the the about actual history uh uh and Maori. And I think that's where you know to circle back to the Koopaba idea, it's very easy for them to see um a Maori Maori in like uh Tepati Maori and go, well they speak for Maori. That's it. So I'll just agree with everything they say and I'm on safe ground.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

But yeah, that's a that's it, that's the white saviors, those great white hopes, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, like but you know, uh that like to be honest, and and and the thing is though, teparti Maori don't speak for all Maori because there's a whole lot of conservative Maori that don't agree with them whatsoever, and there's even Maori on the left that don't agree with Tepati Maori, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Like, well, well, more more um more people would have supported Nash, more Maori would have supported National in the last election than supported uh uh Tepati Māori.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Oh no, 100%. More more more more people supported National than supported Māori that are Māori. Yeah, but there's still more like referred to as Pakia supported Mori than Mori that supported Tepati Maori.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Well that's another interesting thing too, is like with with um Tepati Māori, there could be up to 8,000 votes at a Pakia, and their their level of knowledge or or or why they're voting, uh, we just cannot, we won't be able to tell, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yeah, yeah. I don't seen some receipts on on who went where and what they were, and um, there's way more Pakia that uh uh tick Tepati Māori than Māori did.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Well, you know, and this is something that I think that uh a lot of um you know people in the in the majority um really don't have to contend with, and that's people like turning up and saying, I'm a community leader, I'm speaking for these people now, which includes you and me, you know. Like, say if it's in our organ, you know, our um community, the Jewish community or the Māori community, you'll see these people. You would have had frustration, I bet you, with people that turn up and go, I speak for Maori. And you're like, Oh, I've seen it all my life too, bro.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Like, even as a

Calling Out Harm Inside Communities

SPEAKER_01 12:20

kid, though, even as a kid, like I always think, and not only that, I always think, Oh, you're paedophile. Like, you know, I remember like co-matures, they were paedophiles, and we knew they were, you know what I mean. We were little kids, and we were like, I remember getting like hidings for like calling that shit out. Like, I'm I didn't just start being loud now, or being loud in uh ever since I was a kid, but I remember calling that shit out, getting hidings, you know, for you know, yeah, that comes a beautiful, you know, he's a bloody ho-to-do with the kids, you know, try to give me a kiss when I'm a little boy too, fuck you, and then next minute, but because they're put on this pedestal, um, you know, you we couldn't say shit. Well, you know, and then and there's this there's this thing in as well inside of this what they call tea, which only a certain um you know, a bit of Maori fit into this tea. Uh, not all Maori go into that, because then if you if you if you are, then you're a coup papa because you're not agreeing with everyone. But if you uh if you shine a light on any of that, like the Pie Pie pedophiles or anything like that, then you're oh what about the churches? Yeah, sure, of course they have fucking churches that have pedophiles. Oh, what about you know what I mean? Of course there's pedophiles all over it, but there's also pedophiles on the fucking pie pie. And then if you bring that up, oh you're a coop up. No, no, no, no, no, let's call it out on across the board or let's not call it out at all. You know what I mean? Because they're gonna get offended, like, oh, what about the party? Yeah, and that's also fed by these white Xavier's, then the ones that white, they're the white fellows that aren't Maori or you know, fallisses, they're guilt trip and then they feel guilty because they've been they've also been, oh, I'm sorry about what my great great-grandmother's uh boyfriend did 300 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

So so so they'll turn a blind eye, yeah, brother. Because of that, or they won't they won't entertain that.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Does that then mean like that? This motherfucker, like if you're beautiful, you're beautiful be, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Like whether you're Modi or Chinese or you're Indian or you're yeah, they're in every community, and it's like they got called well, they should be called out in every community.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Yeah, fucking all day, and it shouldn't matter that they're Modi or not, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

You know, yeah. Well I'm I'm interested in talking to that uh that Sam was it, was it Sam Sam Trophy, but talk to him off. Yeah, uh, because like well, suppression is something we're starting to think about very, very hard at the free speech union, and uh there might be some common cause there, so it would be good to talk to them. Straight up, yeah. No, no, no, no. I mean, this is about I mean, yeah, but that's what happened.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

So so Seymour, that whole that whole we're talking about Coop Hopper, right? Yeah, and then because of that whole hiding on that he coin, people just believe that Seymour wanted to do it because that's what I thought. I thought Seymour wanted to rip the treaty up and get it. And I've asked him personally and on the show, as a Miss Don Brash. Do you want do you want to get rid of the treaty? Do you want to delete? No, it's a there's our historical foundational document. I do not believe that we should get rid of it.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

So so so what I'm hearing is, and this is this is quite interesting because it's like what I think is that a lot of the detractors don't, I mean, you you don't have to agree with everything David Seymour says or hell no, you don't have to agree with nobody. No, no, no. You're having a conversation, but you by having that conversation, you are uh well, they they're being humanized in your eyes, you know. You're seeing different sides of David Seymour, you're seeing different sides of uh Don Brash, and of course, people don't want these people humanized, they want them to stay in the band that's not what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Same like Brian Tamaki. Like Brian Tamaki people don't want you to talk to him, and then because they don't want to see see that he's actually funny, or he's actually women too. He's actually all we oh we've got some commonalities. Oh no, how dare we?

SPEAKER_02 15:57

He can have a giggle. Oh wow, that that's a different side of him. But people are multidimensional, but and this is a thing in politics, which I hate about politics, to be uh frank with you. It's like it's very look. I

Humanising People You Disagree With

SPEAKER_02 16:10

had an experience. Uh I'll be honest, I'll be open to the viewers. I was um the shamish at a bar mitzvah. So what that means is I'm the shamish mean what we're getting there. Um, uh a shamish is means helper. So I'm I'm at the door of of someone's bar mitzvah, bringing people in and everything. Sue Bradford comes in, the the ex-green to the to the bar mitzvah. Now I see her and I I don't like the greens, right? So I'm looking at her thinking, oh, she's here. What's she doing here? Right. But she comes in, gives me a big smile. I was like, oh, that was a lovely smile. Goes in, sits down. She comes out to go to the bathroom, but wants to get back into the show, right? But everyone's standing, and and you can't enter a show while people are standing. It's just part of the the tikkan of the place, right? And I said, Oh, sorry, you're not going to be able to go in just at the moment because people are standing. So she, oh, well, why is that? She's genuinely curious. We have a good talk, and then um uh you know, people said, I say, Oh, you can go in now. She goes in. That two-minute talk I had with her, I liked her. I liked her. Two minutes. I'd been bitching and moaning about this woman for five years. I speak for her for two minutes. I liked her. I couldn't fault her as a human being. She was sweet, she was curious about my culture, she wanted to talk, she was just smiling, lovely. And you know, I'd probably still disagree with a lot of your politics, but you know, I met a human being that day. That's the thing. You have that conversation with people, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

I've come away from quite a lot of interactions and felt like a bit of a dick with these politicians because I've been you know, like, you know, yeah, because it's easy to like hear what other people say, and that's why I try to do what I do, brother. We are like you know, even what you're doing here, like trying to talk to people that I disagree with, yeah, or that I think I do, and try to get to know, okay. But like jump on not to try and do gotcha journalism when I'm like interviewing them on the show, yeah. Because, like, you know, this this is what people also have to realize too. Shubb says so on Radio Ultra or and Shub's Live on social media. Two different things. Hey, I can do whatever I want over there. Yeah, subs says so, the BSA still exists at the moment, you know what I mean. There's a few other things, also, you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

They may still exist after the election. If it's advertisers, whatever, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

So there's it's a bit different there, right? And also, that's also a playful wackage. Just hey, you talk to me, uh you tell us you're called it all. Go out. I've had bloody green, oh not green. I've had you know Shannon Holbert on, I've had uh Georgie Densey, so a gay and uh um and a drag king, and then uh you know, and then I've had bloody you know Q Le Wong on, which people are calling a communist, obviously got the right eyes, but um a lot of people saying, like, you know, all these things, and um for me, I've also had all of the the other opposite. I've had Brian Tarmaggy on, who's against all that. I've had, you know, like I say, Don Brass and National MPs, all of those act, David Simmel. But to me, I was just talking like, come on, every yarn, and it's game. Yeah, you know, I've even had some brothers on there that are just like ain't got nothing to do with politics, just want to talk about their meth addiction and how they're changing their life. And yep, you know, I'll talk to all the brothers and sisters out there that's got things going on, it's coming every yarn.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

That's how they say well, that's why I I love your show, man, because it's like you know, coming coming from out south, like things like meth addiction. Like uh, one of my well, my best friend growing up was a meth addict for about 10 years. He, you know, he used to sing in my band. He came right, he found Christianity and and came right, he's doing really well. But like uh you we don't really hear from people going through that. We don't and we need to hear it's going back to that that idea that you the idea that the woke man uh I was getting to this idea with the whole you know supporting the treaty thing, but not supporting someone like Sam. Where's the like where's the Albert Park level uh commitment from the woke for a guy like Sam and his hikoi? Exactly, brother. Exactly. You're worried about pronouns, but you're not worried about it. What about the 200,000 children that were abused in state key? You're prepared to punch old women in the face because they are women, yeah. Because that's that's how that's how passionate you are about this, that you're prepared to punch a pensioner in the head, yeah, but a female pensioner, and you're a 23-year-old young man, but you won't be shoulder to shoulder with a guy that's that's walking the whole country to draw attention to sexual abuse. Something is broken, bro.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

But yeah, 100% something is broken in there, like like even our journey, bro, that we did. Iwi Fuckamahu, healed the nation, brother. We left parliament, turned away from parliament, and went into humanity. You know, and then funny because people started jumping on board because of politics and whatever. But then I said, Well, why don't we leave that behind and come and connect human to human? You know, this is let's do that. Uh, you know, a couple of other brothers who can uh got on board, yeah, let's do it. And then we had this idea, and then the crazy thing is because I had like, and and I know it's like if I had come out and I wasn't sort of like firing shots at you know, Māori and all these different things, or like Māori, meaning like you know, the the the who I think are coup hobbas because they're getting funded, you know, for like direct taxpayer money to support the people, and they're just like I don't know where it's going, you know what I mean. Like, so to me, that's what I think is a coup hobba. Hold on, you mean to look after your people, yeah. You know, I I got no qualms with no Māori or no Jewish or nobody else getting rich, brother. As long as they're getting rich on their own back in their own way, you know, well, they're It the right way, but when you're getting funded funding, hey, this is for you to do all the stuff for the people, and you're going to do enough to tick a box to get some more funding. Oh, dodgy cuss, you know what I mean? Dodgy, and that's me. So, because I did that and called out that, and yeah, called out a few of the old pedos and this and this and that and whatever, and oh, we don't like them. Let's not go and support this thing, which is sweet. That's all good. But I called it all literally. Most people that came didn't even care about politics, always around. I got touched with it as a kid. People are crying on my shoulder because I was vulnerable enough to share my story. Crying on my shoulder saying, Hey, brother, like thank you for doing what you do. You know, you made me feel seen. I carved this because of your words, you know. Uh, and and this represents that, bro. And you know, like, look at this. I carved this out of this tree. I made this act for you, brother, because your words made me do this, like that kind of shit. And people crying tears on your shoulder every day, brother, around the whole cut or around the whole North Island, Dika Maui. All because of that, though. Yes, a little bit of politics, but way more because of the sexual abuse stuff, you know what I mean? And then people be like, aha, like you didn't have thousands of people come with you. I don't need no thousands. Like all those soldiers that came out, they came out to share their story and and and release it and get it off their chest. Even by some of the stories were lethal. Even one lady told me there, um, and they were lethal every day, but this one lady told me she's nine years old, her mom died. Her mom dies, then the dad rapes her from uh and and rapes her from nine till she's 20, and her the dad and the grandfather have turns on her. Um, like you know, so when she goes, when she's not with the dad, the only person she was allowed to save with was the grandfather, and he did the same. You know what I mean? And like that, it wasn't until I had shared my stuff and she seen my videos that made her be like, Fu, thank you, Shabin. She got to release something and come, she just wanted to give me a hug and say thank you. Wow, and then like that kind of stuff, like how did it feel? You know what I mean? Just because I was vulnerable enough to talk about my issues and how I had uh how it had wrecked me and my life and then and what had happened to me, it made them feel like you know. So, you know, shout out to all those like weapons that I got to see, whether uh whether they came to the event or even ones they caught up with us after, just to give a message and say, Can we see you here? or they've seen us in the street, even some brother in the toilet having a shit, bro, and they're looking over the top of brother shop. Can I get a photo, brother? I appreciate you. Hold on, because let me finish my shit, you know. All good, brother, you know, that kind of stuff. That's that's mean, brother. But yeah, like you know, I do I know I definitely know that they because they probably didn't know they probably thought, oh, he's coming in, and he's gonna try and uh do I don't know, and then because I had fired shots and all these people, a lot of the tale Maori that we talked about, right? That everyone else has a coupa if you don't align with them. A lot of them, even their media cuts, and you probably rooked around

A Healing Journey And Survivor Stories

SPEAKER_01 24:40

with them. I know this for a fact because um we were teed up to do an interview with um what's her name with all the how do we do his nephew? Um Tumamal. Tumor Mao was gonna interview because do you know Skye? If you were my manager, do you know Skye Sterling? Uh oh. Was she an actor at one point? I don't know. She worked in like production in there, if I got to Moldaver. And she freelanced, but might do. I do know Sky anyway. So we were teed up to do an interview with Tumamal, and then the court it all was as long as we could talk about our hiding, he could ask us whatever, whatever I had said about whoever his uncle, his don Tommy Hedi, whoever asked me the questions, you want the receipts? I gotcha. You know what I mean? And then he came back, well, I think it was like maybe a few days later, to Sky and said, Um, we'll do the interview, but we won't talk about the hiding. And to me, there was again like censorship. It was like, oh, so this is just before it happens, right? And then they so they would do the interview with me, but they wouldn't talk about the journey that we were about to embark on, you know, inviting people to come and and the the literal cool facato around it was the idea was come to the park, let's have a feed in a conversation. If you want to come on on the whole journey, you can. There's freedom camping sites along that journey. If you want to come and if you if you just want to meet us at some of these different parks that we go to, cool, you know what I mean. We didn't know what it was gonna be, it was just me and my four mates that decided let's do it, you know, let's give it a crack or three mates, you know, and then and then more people rekeen, more people rokeen, and then yeah. And then um, yeah, so that was the idea, but they he he said they refused to talk about it. And to me, I was like, Oh, that's interesting. So you won't meet it, and then Sky said to me, Well, you know, nah, that's not right. And then I said, I don't care, like, just go anyway. Like, if they want the receipts, you want the receipts on John Tummy, like I can give the receipts on your uncle, I can give the receipts on all of them. You know, uh, you might be coming to get do some gotcha journalism on me, but I got all the receipts, so you're gonna you know you're gonna make them look dumb. Because if you don't play the whole thing, I'm gonna record it too, and then you know, I'm gonna put it out too. So, yeah, so that was sort of the thing. I didn't say that, but I was thinking that in my head, right? But the fact that that he didn't wanna, well not him, it's probably whoever was in there, didn't want to allow us to you know talk about our hikwood, which was literally about um having conversations and and sitting with our inner child and planting trees for shade, we'll never sit under, like you know, having a feed in a conversation no matter your color, your creed. Uh, you know, because come and have a caught it all in a in a feed, you know, they weren't willing to talk about that. I was like, oh yeah, yeah, hate us out here. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Look, look, bro, bro. Look, I'm just gonna I'll push back a little bit here. Go home, go hard, bro. And and and and this is how I'm gonna do it back hard. Go this is how I'm gonna do it. Like, I understand being in a smaller community in the Jewish community, that they I understand the tensions about airing that concept of airing dirty laundry. You know, we have a lot of internal fights. Sometimes it's like, is this appropriate for the outside to see? Now, and the idea being that if the wrong I'll call them Pakia, see it, then you know, they'll use that against us, they'll weaponize that against us. So is that what some of these TMPs, these honey hardware, these John Tummy headies are thinking? It's like, yeah, there is difference within Maori, but there's difference within all groups. If some of this dirty laundry gets out, it's it will be used against us. Or do you think that's not a I mean, obviously, in the in the case of the world? Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Well, or well, if you're talking about like specifically people who benefit from the from the fundings there that exist, I think what it is is uh not they'll use preservation. I believe it'll be oh, you're gonna make us look bad as a people, but really it's your fucking pocket that's affected. So there's more stuff going on. Well, 100%, yeah, yeah, yeah. But let's take anytime that money's involved, right? Anytime that money's involved, then

Media Gatekeeping And Selective Coverage

SPEAKER_01 28:30

you have to question the people person's motive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, like if money's involved, like as in funding that can be cut off or that can be stopped because of what I've brought to light, and then I'm the fucking devil. It's like what else is it? Is it because I'm the devil showing these little bad scars that we have as people, or is it that you're a bad motherfucker who's gone and done shit, you know, John tummy heady, gone and access funding and acted like you're fucking uh the light for the people, you're also the president of a fucking political party, as well as the fucking president of fucking or the CEO of Waiperated Trust who gets all this funding, like it's all about fucking cash, brother, all day. And if you don't believe that, then sweet at because Don didn't give a fuck. If you go look at old Don's writings back in the 2000s, he couldn't give a give give a fuck about this kind of shit, like Tepati Māori and the way that they do politics in this whole grievance politics stuff. He used to write a thing that was stupid, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

He was more on the the the Shane Jones buzz, really.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Yeah, 100% also, you know what I mean? But then once this is what's happened too, and this is what I truly believe. Some Māori have realized there's an economy because if you think about it, brother, you see, we're fucking things that happened to our ancestors hundreds of years ago. Also, I'm Scottish and Iris. Some of my ancestors might have been on the other side. I don't fucking know. I haven't done my deep dive into that side of the fuck up, but like also on both guys. Oh fuck, what am I gonna do? Kill the kill the kill kill half of me, or not half of them. I don't know what what part of me is that, but you know, look at to sorry, bro.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Just to just a little detour. To Hennedy was on X and big ups for going out here. He did a DNA test, he's 12 Maori.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Oh, like he was like, Yeah, he was 30. So, pretty much what you're saying is his toe is his uh his toes are Maori. Okay, yeah. I mean, toe don't really like me, but I don't uh yeah, my mate told me so don't really like me, and then I said, I wonder why toe don't like me. And then I think, well, one it's uh, and then I thought, oh, okay, because I remember him talking about Hunny Huddlewitter and how um, you know, Hunny Huddlewitter has his uh what did he say? Hunly Huddlewitter is so racist that he has his cup of teas with chocolate milk or something like that. Yeah, something like that. That's what he's flipped. No, no, but that's what Tohino was like, right? Now Tohenadi is right now. But not only that, he's on their bloody those uh statutory board moldy boards getting money.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Well, I know that there are people close to me that were in in the fight with me who were principled, but but here's the thing, and here's the thing, man, and I think about this a lot.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Well, people change when they get money sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Well, if if some if if I got shoulder tapped and it was like Dane, $350,000 a year. Uh, you'll have a chief executive above you in this organization you're in, they'll tell you what to do. You know, just just listen to them and you won't go wrong. And it's like it's a five-year tenure. I'd be like, Well, you know, I got four children, bro. I'd be like, my my kids would be sort of maybe I should shut my big mouth for five years.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

I've been I've been offered more than that to shut my mouth about the things that I brought up, and I told them all to get fucked. So, you know, that also shows who you are, brother. Like, how do I get offered shit? No, but what I'm saying is like I hear what you're saying, but that also shows your character, brother. Like for me, you can't fucking buy me cuz and you can't, you know, you literally can't buy me. I've been offered heaps more money than that to shut my mouth, and I won't. Shut up for me then, cunts.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Well, but yeah, but dude, I wish I well, look. Well, in saying that though, man, and saying that I I won't throw myself completely under the bus because like I'm in the the film and TV business and I am an outsider, and I've made myself an outsider. Like I've done that with my views and and uh and and who I am, so it's not like I'm I've been this guy that's uh you know relentlessly kissed bum all my career because I've been. Well, you're also in the free speech union.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

I don't think you're kissing their bums to be no no no no no that's that that that that's no no but what I'm saying is but like like for me, like I've been offered that like like I've said, and I put a video out last week because people are like, Oh, who pays you? Who owns the station? Well, you dumbass, go and jump on Google and find out because not fucking hard. George Gartai owns the fucking station, you know what I mean? But George Gartai can't tell me what to fucking say either. You know what I mean? And that's the truth, you know. Uh if you're gonna have me on on your station, you're gonna allow me to be me, and yeah, I'll play within whatever rules you have that are there, but you can't say you must say this. Oh, because I'll tell you to get fucked. Whether you're George Gartoi, whether you're the fucking president of the fucking world, Donald Trump, I don't care. Yeah, uh, bro.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

I I I mean, it's interesting that like, and I get this too, like, I'm called controversial often. Um, but I I I can't really think of of the view that I hold that's super controversial. And like when I listen to you, like I love your performance style, I love all that kind of shit. I just I love it, bro. And you know, when we're we're when we're you know, this is being recorded for the people. If if the if we weren't recording right now, like it would be a very different conversation, let me tell you that. But um the but but I'll have it here too, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll probably advise you not to. But but but but I don't I don't find you in content, I don't find you controversial. A lot of your stuff is common sense, you know. Yeah, like you say, you're bringing receipts, you're looking at it like it's I'm also happy to like be like corrected,

Funding, Incentives And Being Bought Off

SPEAKER_02 33:55

you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 33:55

And then all yeah, I'll own it too. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

But I mean, what back to the the couple of things circling back there again, like well, I was telling you um yeah in the pre-interview uh phone call that we we have a term in you know the Jewish people, and it's kind of similar, you know, it's another K, it's uh capo capo and the capo's capo, a capo is someone that is that that that is a trader, so it's it's the same concept, and there were um, you know, obviously uh in the Holocaust there were were some Jews that that would work for the Nazis as as Jewish police per people to try to round up Jews and do things like that, right? Now they might have been able to say, or some of them would have said, Well, I didn't quite know what was going on and all that kind of stuff, but it was clearly a self-preservation thing. That's what they were doing. Or I mean, probably an ill-advised form of self-preserve preservation, but that's um that's what a lot of them did. Now, today we are dealing with anti-Zionists, um, anti-Zionist Jews. Now, many of these people I know personally, and I I like them personally. And when I'm in a shool, it might be a bit like being in a Murai. It's like if you're at a tangi and there's someone you don't agree with politically, I don't know how you'd feel about this. I think a lot of people would leave that alone, they leave all that stuff alone at that point, because we're in the middle of a ritual, it's it's important, the humanity's coming first, the politics is a distant second. I'm like that when I pray in my shawl next to these people. And and I again, you know, in in certain aspects of life, I can love them to bits, but then move into the political sphere and I don't like them so much, you know. It's it's that complexity of it there. But um, but these people uh can cause us grief, you know, they can they can even expose us to a little bit of security harm um or problems, but they remain Jews, and a person can't be free, a minority can't be free if the most contrary expressions out of that minority cannot be expressed.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

So 100 cannot you cannot call you can't take away my Maori tongue because just because you don't like what I have to say, you know, and it's the same with David Seymour, you know what I mean? People talk about blood quantum and Maori and how oh, they all you need is a drop of Baori to be Maori until you're David Seymour, and then oh nah, he's not a real Maori, or your Shubs, and oh you're a traitor to Maoris. Motherfucker. Like one, let's rewind, let's take it back before the treaty. If we were different, I we were different hapu because he we didn't exist, it was a different hapu. We'd be knocking each other off anyway. What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, when have we been one? We only became one people under a name because the British had to distinguish them and us. Maori says that's how we because Maori was never what we called each other. You know, Maori means ordinary, it means normal. So then Maori was the label they threw on us. So what are you talking about? Like, you know, whatever nati you were, nahti this, nahti that, they don't even nahti get along most of the fucking nati time. You know what I mean? But you can't take away my nati because your idea of what a nati is means everything. Shut up.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Well, and then you've got Winston Peters and what's happening in New Zealand.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yeah, he's not Maori enough, and even St. Jones, like St. Jones is one of the like most well like uh spoken Maori, like you know, one of the best orators, Maori orators that exist.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, you you cannot cannot cast any doubt on ones.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Yeah, even on the cardinal he's on there, and even on Scotty really agrees with him or not, he's like, then I'll wait up to it. You know what I mean? And yeah, they go, Maori.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Oh, uh, yeah, yeah. I want to have a chat with him. Um, I'd I'd I'd love to meet him and have a chat with him. So like David Seymour fascinates me with his Maori thing because he obviously connects it with you. Do you think he's how do I put this without making it sound a bit uh cringy? Is is he looking is where does he stand as a Māori man? You know, like what do you mean, guys? But you know what I mean? It's like it's like all my life, and and and and I you I say this to my children, it's like, you know, what's it mean to be Jewish? And it's like, well, that's your journey, you know, like some people where they stand, especially because they're not in Israel, they're not there, you know, they're in, they're the other at the moment, right? And in the in the society that they're in. So what what so therefore, what does it mean to be Jewish? Where do I stand as a Jewish man? I think Maori asks this question. And and look, and I've dude to be honest with you, I've seen Maori who can get very sort of uptight about protocol and tea kanga and that, but they I know they don't know that much, so that there's insecurity there, but even even that stuff is this weird because even that you know how they said oh we gotta do it the teekanger way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Tikang is different.

SPEAKER_03 39:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

What you know what I mean? Like it's a lot of us, there's so much virtue signaling too. And I spoke about it earlier. I don't know where Seymour is. We if we're all Maori, like if we go by this whole blood quantum, don't matter, you just need to drop Seymour's a Maori, whether you like it or not. He's uh one of the great Narpu he leaders of all time. And whether you agree with that or not, that's your own choice.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

That's core. Yeah, no, no, yeah, he's there, and and I tell you what, that man can argue his he can fight his corner. And and I don't agree with a lot of uh stuff that act act have like there, I take issue with some of it, but I will always respect a man that can defend himself and fight his corner, and you know, like him or not, he he comes with arguments, man.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Oh nah, shut up. And he's inspiring because you gotta be ready, like it like you know, people go like you know, oh, he's a sapach, or or he's a dog, or it's probably because they don't understand because he's probably too brainy, you know what I mean? But like with him, too. What I've noticed just in my own dealing with him, he's very willing to talk, bro, like all the time. Even I messaged him just before because I got this message, someone saying that they're voting for uh for him and for for the first time voting for act in 25 years, never ever would have voted for act, and then this is like you know, one of the cuzzies that are you know to old Māori sort of beast saying huh, and then I just said to him, you getting the old cuzsies winning the old cuzsies, everyone from coming on the show, AB. And then he's sort of like, uh oh, I enjoy coming on the show anyway. Um, and it was getting voting.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

How do you touching on something really interesting there? It's like most people speak in the construct of the mainstream media, which is has its no go uh, which is very, very biased, has its no no-go zones and all that kind of stuff. You're never gonna see a a reporter like yourself there who's gonna bring a different different side out of a goal like David. Oh, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, you wouldn't get in the door.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

No, but even if I got in the door, it gets sacked the first day, brother. If you were the courier guy, it's like when people ask me to be a politician, like it's like when people ask me to be a politician, like Jerry Brownlee hockey in the house, that'll be my first day in every day, cuz I'll be getting kicked out.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Some people are made to do politics, uh Stephen Seymour. I'm made to talk about it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Well, well, you're vibe, dude. You're vital to democracy, dude. You're doing a service to democracy. We're doing a service to democracy.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

We're doing we're doing a service to democracy, bro.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Well, we're upholding democracy, cuz if we can democracy isn't a place where only one view is is is tolerated. That's uh there's communism. You know what I mean? Well, that one's a dictatorship.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Well, you know, that whole idea of diversity within um minority

Free Speech, Hate Speech And Cancellation

SPEAKER_02 41:50

groups. I mean, we're going through it now. This this might be dated by the time this goes to air, but we'll you know, Annie O'Brien may end up cancelled from an Auckland uh um uh facility that that we've hired for her good faith yarns to her because a straight uh heterosexual labor activist has decided she's not good for the LGBT. Oh, lesbian.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

So the lesbian, yep, the lesbian is getting cancelled from the straight for not being good for the LGBT. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Not not bigger. See, but see, but that's the thing about hate speech laws, dude. And there's actually there's actually um data on this. I mine, you know, minority groups use them to quell dissenters within those groups.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Well, you know what's crazy too is I I I I've I've I've been doing a little bit of a digging, and it's it's something that a particular uh uh religious sect like to bring in around the world. So I find that quite interesting. Oh, yeah, well, we'll go on, go talk, talk. No, just that like that like that that that a lot of the places that uh a certain uh group of individuals, religious uh you know, individuals, try to always push into the countries that they you know begin to settle in. Like to try to push on those hate speech laws to bring those in. Uh, you know, then yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

And and the irony there is that you know uh they're only doing it because they're religious conservatives. I mean, i if if brian tarmaky was pushing for for um hate speech laws to me. No, he never would. But if he was, people would identify that as conservatism. But when Islam does it, they don't, you know. Um I know that's what you're they don't, but it's conservative, it's religious conservatives. It's like Anjim Rachman, who was um uh, you know, fronting the hate speech laws way back when Andrew Little was tasked with doing something about it. Um, you know, she's she's a religious conservative. You know, she's not a progressive person. Uh a lot of uh lefties and far lefties would back her. But they don't know the thing with the far left is like I'll tell you where they're rotten. They don't understand culture and they don't understand religion. They can't see a conservative from a progressive in the faith. They're more likely to attack, and it even happened, Majid Nawaz, who was like wanting to talk about terrorism and fighting terrorism from within Islam. Uh the Muslim community here didn't want him to come in. And a lot of a lot of uh far leftists were backing them, they were backing conservatives against the progressive who wanted to do basically the kind of stuff that you're talking about, cleaning house within.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

But the far left seem to be. And I know you're an OG left then, Wamit, but like the far left are like the hardest to talk to, brother. Yeah, like honestly. Well, they're extremists. Like the like, you know, they're the hardest to talk to or to get on. And even just ones that are just tickling, just not not even on the far left, but they're in the left. Like they they're scared to talk because of the ones on the far left that are gonna abuse them if they come and talk to me.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

They've got they've got that that they have to contend with. Well, yeah, bro.

Final Reflections And Where To Next

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Well, I uh well, I just want to say, bro, that I I've really appreciated you coming on. I've really enjoyed our conversation. I could have many more like this, and you know, like I want to commend you and thank you for the work you're doing, for the um, for your talent, uh, and uh for your uh ability to um uh you know sit with people like Paul Henry, were David Seymour, all these people, all these different people, Brian Tampick, all these people, uh, and and uh get another side out of them. Um, you know, there's that that that's a that's a talent, bro. That's a great talent, and you've got that, and you are changing lives. Like I was really moved when you're talking about uh some of the people who, you know, after you sharing your experience, would come up and give you gifts, and now I mean that must have really flawed you. Oh, they still do, brother. People still you see them in the I mean that that would have really that would have flawed you, bro. Like that would have been you would have felt that man.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

I was at a I was at a restaurant, like, oh, I don't know, it was this. Oh, that I don't know if you've seen that video that I did like with when Winnie P was talking about Dawn Tommy here and they he was doing that meeting out west. That day I was at a restaurant with uh Billy Brown and Krina, and then I walked outside and there was this dude and he was like, bro, I seen you in there and I wanted to let you get ever feed. But I just wanted to like say, brother, like thank you so much, brother, for being so strong to speak up. And it's crazy, hey, because I was like, Far out, there's so many people out there that aren't speaking up. And you know, if I can if that if that can be give them inspiration, but keep going, keep talking, brother. I think in 20 years' time, hopefully I can be one, just like Sam, Trough, and and and and many of others, they can be a light for those that in 20 years' time say these conversations are happening more now, they're not swept under the rug because of people like myself and many others.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Thank you for listening to Free2Speak. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and consider sharing the podcast with others. We release new episodes regularly, and subscribing is the easiest way to stay up to date. If you have any questions, feedback, or suggestions, you can contact us at podcast at fsu.nz. If you want to find out more about the New Zealand Free Speech Union, visit fsu.nz.