How do you keep going when life changes everything? Linda Fogg-Phillips

Life doesn’t come with a roadmap. And sometimes change comes whether we’re ready for it or not.

Linda Fogg-Phillips, M.S., is a behavior-change expert, author, and co-founder of the Tiny Habits Academy, where she works alongside her brother, Dr. BJ Fogg, creator of the Tiny Habits method. But Linda’s understanding of change isn’t just professional. It’s deeply personal.

In this encore episode of Stories of Change, Linda shares how she learned to navigate those changes and find a way forward—one small step at a time.

Over a period of years, she faced the loss of her son, the collapse of her family’s home-building business, bankruptcy, and her husband’s battle with early-onset Alzheimer’s.

We also talk about Tiny Habits, Linda’s idea of “Pearl Habits,” and how reframing difficult moments can help us respond differently to the changes we didn’t choose.   You can find out more about Pearl Habits here. 

In this episode:

• Navigating loss and unexpected change
• Why small steps can make a difference
• Moving from “Why me?” to “What can I learn?”
• Using Pearl Habits to reframe difficult moments
• The importance of celebration 

Please follow along for real stories, take away a little wisdom and maybe find something that helps you figure out what's next.  

Transcript

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Why Change Feels So Hard

Judy Oskam 0:02

Life doesn't come with a roadmap. We're all figuring it out as we go. And as I think about the next chapter of Stories of Change, I've been going back to some of the conversations that really capture what the podcast is all about. Linda Fogg -Phillips is one of them. Linda has spent years helping people understand how small changes can make a big difference. But what I love about our talk is that Linda doesn't just think and talk about change, she's lived it. She shares what she's learned along the way and reminds us that sometimes the smallest steps are the ones that help us move forward. I'm Judy Oskam, and this is Stories of Change, helping you navigate what's next. Here's my conversation with Linda Fogg -Phillips.

When Everything Collapses At Once

Linda Fogg-Phillips 0:53

And the last 15 years, it has been like one change after another after another after another, none of them of which I anticipated or ever thought I'd have to deal with. And the first one, the first basically the first domino that tipped, or the first shoe that dropped, however you want to refer to it, occurred uh, well, really occurred in 2008. And that's when a lot of things in my world were starting to fall apart. We were home builders here in Las Vegas, very, very successful home builders, had a company for 25 years. Um, you know, net worth was $30 million. It was a really successful company.

Judy Oskam 1:28

Wow.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 1:29

We were a privately owned company, meaning we owned it all our children. Sure. Sure. Many family members, um, my children, my son-in-law. Um, and then as if you look back to those years, that's when the housing recession was really starting to get into full swing. And every place in the US started to fall apart. Even um public builders that had deep pockets started to fall apart. The little builders that we were really didn't stand a chance. But we we fought good and hard and we hung on for quite a while. But 2008, as I look back to that year, that really was the pivotal year for not only struggling financially and struggling with our home building business, but that also was the time that we lost my 20-year-old son to an accidental oxycontin overdose. And so it just seemed like the world was falling down around my feet. Um, you know, adapting to, and my son, his name was Garrett. Um, I have eight children. He was the third of our eight. Um, just, you know, he really was um, well, and even my kids say he was the golden child, and I'm not gonna deny that.

Judy Oskam 2:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 2:32

I'm not gonna all my kids are amazing. I love them all equally, of course. But um, Garrett was everybody's um golden sibling or golden child because he was just so kind and generous and just so caring. Um, and unfortunately, his death um really put us all on a tailspin. And this was an unexpected death. And the history behind um getting on oxycodone is it was very tragic. He was a high school athlete and it was one of those high school coaches that was an injury, huh? Yeah. And his high school coach introduced him to stackable steroids that then led to pain meds that unfortunately um he got addicted to and just could not kick it. Um, so that was a monumental change that took me a while. I I don't know. I don't know that you can ever get over that. How do you ever get over that? You don't, you don't, Judy. Um, you don't ever get over the loss of a child. Um it's something that I had a very wise friend, and I'm gonna share this advice because it was really helped me, not just through the loss of Garrett, but subsequently, three years ago, I lost my husband as well to early onset Alzheimer's. Um and a friend of mine, Jim Anderson, told me, he said, Linda, people will tell you that time will heal. And this was in relationship, this was uh about three days after Garrett passed, and Jim came over to visit us and he said, Linda, people will tell you time will heal. He says, But don't believe them. That's a lie. All time allows you to do is to learn to live with the pain. And I found that to be really true.

Judy Oskam 4:04

It's true. Yeah.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 4:05

And having had Jim share that with me, it helped me revise my expectations. Um, instead of saying, Oh, why aren't I getting over this? or why is this still a problem for me, or why am I still, you know, depressed about the loss of my son. Um, I realized that it was going to take some time for me to learn to live with this new reality of mine. And I will tell you, that journey has been a bittersweet journey, as I'm sure you can imagine.

Judy Oskam 4:31

Sure.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 4:32

The first probably three or four years, and this is, and so this was what, 15 years ago, about the first three or four years. Um I struggled to function. I truly struggled to function. And I finally got to the point in my life where some of the things that would cause me a lot of pain or sorrow that would bring back up that wound in my heart, the loss of my son, I then started to embrace. And I didn't realize that the pain that I was feeling was because I loved him. So that was a shift and a change, not so much in mindset, but in the allowing time to help me learn how to live in a positive manner in the face of such a negative and difficult situation. Um, even today, it's been this many years, uh, you know, I never work on Garrett's birthday and I never work or, you know, I never make plans on his birthday or on what we call his angel day, the day he's gonna be.

Judy Oskam 5:25

And you guys have a big celebration on that day, don't you? Yeah.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 5:28

Yeah. We all we always, even my kids that live out of town come into town and especially on his angel day, we'll go to his favorite sushi restaurant and we really celebrate his life again. Um, instead of just sort of pushing it aside or ignoring or trying to pretend that never happened, because the real reality is it did happen and it did impact

Grief That Never Fully Heals

Linda Fogg-Phillips 5:45

all of us. And so the years have allowed me to adapt and start to um embrace those feelings of pain in acknowledgement of the fact that that was unconditional love that I had for my child. And so that uh that was a big shift for me. But in that same year, in 2008, when we started to lose everything, um, you know, losing our home building business, eventually we lost our home, we lost our five-acre ranch. Um, we had to file chapter seven bankruptcy where we had nothing left because my husband had personally guaranteed a number of land loans and things. Um, it it facilit it had it necessitated a very drastic change of life for us. Um, I had I had eight horses at that time. I had to either sell or give them away. It's sort of like a fire cell because we had to move out of our home pretty quickly because the bank was taking it back. They wouldn't work with us on it. Um, but everybody, I mean, not everybody, but that was sort of a common thread that people were losing their homes and losing their properties and losing their businesses right and left, especially people that had anything to do with home building. I never expected that at that point in time I wouldness, it wouldn't, I would need to go back to work or I would need to help support my family. And I did so a little bit hesitantly. Um, you know, I was a full-time mom. That's what I loved doing with a big family. Yes. Yes. My youngest child was 11 at the time, and I'd had a charmed, really a charmed life up until then. Sure. I had the privilege and the opportunity to stay home with my children. They were in private school. We had a beautiful horse ranch, we did a lot of um extracurricular activities around horses and around sports, and I had the freedom and the ability to do that. So when my world was turned upside down, and it's like, wow, I think I need to do something to help support the family because I have a good education. Um, it's like maybe I need to bridge this gap for a little bit until we get back on our feet with home building. I knew I knew it would come back. My husband was a very, very good entrepreneur. But what I didn't know is that was not God's plan.

Judy Oskam 7:53

Yeah.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 7:54

Uh and shortly after that, in um 2014, as we were trying to put the pieces back together on many things, you know, not just the ramifications of losing my son, but losing our home building business, needing to move, um, you know, uproot my children, pull them out of private schools, just you name it, everything changed. Um, and the bankruptcy just really uh it was really difficult to go through. It was never in my life I did I think that we would need to do that. I was actually, I'll be honest, I was actually pretty upset with my husband for personal guaranteeing loans. But that's that's the nature of the business. It is, it is, you have, you know, and so for a little while I had to navigate through that. But then in 2014, my husband was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's at the age of 58.

Speaker 2 8:40

Oh, so young.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 8:42

And then I realized, okay, this is not a temporary situation for me to need to help support my family. This is now going to be my role. And Judy, as I say that, and I know there's you know a lot of a lot of implications there, but but as I look back on that, and as I say that, that's there's a lot of things I had to step into and had to move forward with courage because I had no other choice. Yeah, there just wasn't another choice. Um, and as I look back, I am, and this is gonna sound funny, but I am so grateful that I had that opportunity to step into the role that I'm currently in. Oh, yeah. I would have never paired up with BJ to take build out any habits academy. I I would have never um been an even motivated or needed to be in the position that I'm in now. And I love what I'm doing. I love the people I'm working with, like yourself. Um, I love giving people back that hope and evidence and change and that the skills and tools that they can implement to navigate really difficult changes and come back through it on the other side better than before. I've learned this the hard way, and I don't want it to be so hard for others. So when you say, well, what was the pivotal change or what was the most impactful change? That was isn't it's not one specific, but it was sort of a period of time where I had to decide, is this gonna you know destroy me or am I gonna rise above this? And obviously I chose the latter, and I'm still rising above it. I think we still are. But I look back and the blessings and the opportunities that I've had as a result would have never come to me without those challenges that I faced.

Judy Oskam 10:20

Well, I think right there you're also talking a lot about mindset too, and the fact that because all of those instances, any one of those events would be enough to just knock somebody flat. And the fact that you kept going and going and you went from one to another, and that resilience, I think, is something that I love the fact that you've actually looked back

Losing The Business And Starting Over

Judy Oskam 10:45

and sort of analyzed that because that I think helps you grow, right? Yes. Oh, yes.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 10:52

Um, and I I'm very analytical. And so when things are going wrong, or even when things are going right, it's like, okay, why? Why did that happen? Um, and and you know, getting stuck in the why is not helpful, it's very harmful. You know, why me? I think that's a very um a lot of us have gotten stuck in that mindset, especially in the midst of turmoil. Well, why me? Well, why not? But it's not so much why, you know, understanding, you know, uh, but now understanding, okay, taking that that you learned or the situation surrounding that, and how are you going to leverage that to be better? Um, there's a saying that I often share with my children, and it's be better, not bitter. It's really easy to be bitter about what life hands us and be bitter about the changes that are thrust upon us. But that doesn't help. That doesn't do any no, no, no. The challenge is just to be better because of it, rise above it and and be a better person and make the world around you better as a result.

Judy Oskam 11:51

Well, again, that's a choice, though. And again, you made those choices, and and I think back and I look at uh all of the uh challenges that you had and what are good role model you have been for your own children and grandchildren now. Because now, and have you thought about that? That everything you're doing as moms, right? They're watching us all the time, even though they're grown, they're watching us.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 12:21

You know, thank you for saying that, Judy. That actually I felt a responsibility, not necessarily to be a role model, but I felt a responsibility to be my best self for their benefit. For them, yes, yes, yes, for them, yes, and also, you know, during the time that my husband was alive but still declining, I I needed to show up as my best self because I owed it to him and I owed it to my children. Right, right. I I do know, and they've referenced this several times, that that um, you know, when they're facing their own challenges, which they do, um, you know, my children are now adults, they have their own families, they have their own, you know, day in and day out, big challenges as well as little challenges. And it doesn't matter if they're big or little, they're still challenges. These they still are changes that you need to navigate. And I know that um I've given my children some hope that they can do it too. Yeah and be really honest, my lifeline through all of these challenges was tiny habits, yes, which then evolved into, as you know, pearl habits, which is taking the challenge and creating beauty out of it, like that grain of sand, making a pearl, making a gem out of that irritant or that challenge that you have, as opposed to allowing it to cause you to be bitter and to deteriorate or to have your relationships deteriorate. Um, I have one daughter right now that's having a lot of challenges with mental health. She has bipolar illness and also has a borderline personality disorder and has really struggled the last three years. And um, I'm hoping that we have I have daily conversations with her, and she gets really stuck in the negative mindset. And I'm hoping that the conversations I have with her, as well as where what we've been through over the years, um helps her see that there's a better way than being bitter. In fact, last week I was on a call with her, I was on a Zoom call with her, and she won't mind me sharing her name. This she's given me permission to share her as well. Her name's Amber, and she was complaining about something. She was very negative. Um and, you know, I just said, Look, Amber, happiness is a choice. And I have a sign in my office downstairs, the one that I usually sit in to write and read. And, you know, I pulled the sign off of my bookshelf because I have it just written on a little note card with a smiley face. I said, look, happiness is a choice. I said, I've had this up on my bookshelf for over five years. I look at it every

Alzheimer’s And A New Role

Linda Fogg-Phillips 14:40

day to remind myself, I can choose how I'm gonna face this day. I can choose to be happy or I can choose to be angry and bitter. And I think I'm starting to get through to her. You know, um, she's probably my only child that really struggles with um negativity. And I know a lot of us get stuck with the negative talk in our head or narrative that is negative. You know, whatever we're gonna tell ourselves is going to be the truth. Yeah. So you can change your story. And just like you said, Judy, we can choose to be happy. We can live a different story than the negative story we're telling ourselves.

Judy Oskam 15:17

Well, and and uh that's why I love Pearl Habits. And talk a little bit about Pearl Habits and how how did that come to be? Because we're you know, people who listen to this podcast and they you know, put we'll put in the show notes information about tiny habits, but talk about Pearl Habits because to me, I think that's that's fantastic because a lot of the changes we want to make are coming from a negative spot, a negative place.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 15:42

Yeah, and like I said, they're thrust upon us. They're not necessarily our choice to make those changes, but we have to adapt. We have to be resilient. Um, pearl habits emerged during my journey of really struggling through, you know, some of the challenges that I just shared with you, along with other um challenges that emerged during, you know, the last during all of this, as well as you can imagine. Um, and uh one day, well, it was in the early days of tiny habits. Um, one day I was talking to BJ, you know, BJ, who designed the Tiny Habits method, who's my brother. We're very, very close. And um I was I was pretty depressed. I was pretty apathetic. And I it was um not, it was probably about the you know, three years or so after Garrett had passed away. And I was still really in a bad spot, um, mentally and emotionally. And uh one day, BJ said, Hey, Lindo, why don't you try this tiny habit recipe? We didn't have a name for it then, but he said, it goes like this. After your feet hit the floor in the morning, I will basically say after my feet hit the floor in the morning, I will tell myself it's gonna be a great day. And then, as you know, with the tiny habits method, one of the most important parts of it is reinforcing the behavior that you're wanting to create as a as a habit with a positive emotion. And I would just do a two thumbs up and say, Yes, you've got this or way to go. Um, that habit I have done every single day since that point in time. What happened in this, and you know, it was sort of I was sort of scoffing at BJ, not at him, but it's like, oh brother, he thinks that's good. Yes, like really come on, BJ, seriously. But I thought, why not? You know, he's a pretty smart guy. It's not gonna hurt me to do that, so why not try it? And we have a close enough relationship that you know, we're comfortable challenging each other on things that we and just say, hey, but I I said, okay, I'll try it. I said, I'll try it. It probably won't work, but I'll try it. Um, here again, my negative mindset. And within three days, what I saw was a complete shift in my mindset and a shift in my demeanor. And I thought, wow, isn't that interesting? And as I've looked at that and here again evaluated, why did it have such an impact on me? What I noticed happened is it took me out of my victim mindset and put me into a victor mindset just by starting my day off with it's going to be a great day and celebrating, releasing the endorphins and dopamine that happens when you celebrate. As a result, what I started doing as the, you know, I start my day off with that, but as a result, I started looking for the good things in my day. What's going to make my day great? What are the great things that would happen that I

Tiny Habits Becomes Pearl Habits

Linda Fogg-Phillips 18:10

didn't even plan? Or great things that I would then make sure happened. And so my focus was more on the positive than the negative. That has been transformative for me. In fact, I have told BJ, I think he saved my life because I was in such a dark spot at that point in time. Um, that he gave me that tool to implement that has really positively impacted me. And that's one of my favorite recipes. We now call it the Maui habit. Yeah. But also, so I consider that a pearl habit because you're taking a negative situation or a difficult situation and you're looking at it differently. What I also saw is it gave me permission to look at the positive things in my life as opposed to be drawing drawn into the negative or drawn into, oh, you know, everything that was going poorly. It really helped me realize there's a lot of things that are going well and to continue to focus on those as opposed to the opposite. Um, another pearl habit that I use often, and there's many, many of them. Um, another pearl habit that I use often is when I get in a situation that is new to me or I'm uncomfortable, or it's like, oh, causes anxiety. And I I, you know, it's like, oh man, I've never done this. This is this is causing me to be uncomfortable. I tell myself, and here again, that's you know, when I'm feeling uncomfortable or when I get into a situation that causes me anxiety, I will tell myself, oh, this is gonna be a new adventure. I wonder what I'm going to learn. Now, adventures are fun, right? Right, right. Y'all want to go on a fun adventure. And so if we can reframe those challenging events or situations in our life that we're uncomfortable with or that are new to us, if we can reframe them as an adventure and in turn, look, I wonder what I'm gonna learn. It allows you, I think, to navigate that experience or event more effectively and gracefully, but it also allows you to be taught, um, allows you to be aware and be curious about, okay, what am I gonna learn on this? And here again, instead of dreading, it's like, oh no, not this again, or oh, I can't do this. You know, reframing it and saying, hmm, this is gonna be an adventure. I want to learn right. Um, I that's a pearl habit. So taking either an emotion, a feeling, an experience that causes you that is that irritant or is or the challenge, and designing how you're going to respond to it instead of reacting, then you can design a more positive life and a more positive response, which usually ends up with a positive result. So that's why it's called, you know, that's why we decided to call it Pearl Habits. And Pearl Habits simply emerge from um basically the way that I needed to use tiny habits to cope with the challenges that I was facing. And even says, hey, this is real, this really were was, you know, this Pearl Habits um allows allowed you to cope and still allows me to cope with constant change and challenges that cause us to be uncomfortable sometimes.

Judy Oskam 21:04

Well, because a lot of the people that we work with and coach are wanting to make a change and they're coming from why do I act this way in a meeting or why do I feel this way? So using the Pearl Habit technique is is beneficial. And I know I've had some people that I've I've worked with that just to kind of when I turn on my Zoom, I will do something, you know. I mean, really to think more positively, but it's all about changing the mindset to making it more positive.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 21:36

Exactly. In fact, let me share another. This is sort of a funny example, but it this is where Pearl Habits really help to change, uh diffuse my anger. Because sometimes our mindsets were irritated or angry or put out about something. And um, about three years ago, my catalytic converter was stolen out of my gosh, yes, like sequoia. I have a 20, you know, it's a 2002. Sequoia, I love it, has over 200,000 miles on it. Um, but I went out one morning to start it and it sounded like a freight train. I didn't know what's going on. And my I called my son, he goes, Well, look underneath your car. And you know, we we discovered that my Cadillac converter had been stolen. Well, this was in the middle of the pandemic, and so parts were very, very limited, you know, supply chain issues were real. I took my car to the shop and they said, Oh, yeah, it's gonna be about $2,500 and we're gonna need three months to get this part in. So it's like that was irritating, but I still needed to drive my car. Sure. You know, I mean, I couldn't just park it and not drive it. And so uh I would go out and start my car. Every time I'd start it, I sort of forgot that my catalytic converter wasn't there. So it'd be really loud whenever I started that, it would scare

Reframing Anger With Gratitude

Linda Fogg-Phillips 22:45

me. Then I'd get angry. It's like, dang those guys. So I then I would just start getting angry and irritated, and then my day would go downhill from there. Then I realized, I think it took me about a week. It's like, man, this is a perfect opportunity to create a Pearl Habit. And so the Pearl Habit that I designed was when I start my car and hear the rumble of my engine, I'll remind myself I'm grateful they left the rest of my car. That's good. And just that little change, right? Um, you know, just oh, I'm so glad I have the rest of my car. Um, and celebrating that really changed my mindset. And, you know, sort of made me chuckle at the fact, oh yeah, because I have had a whole car stolen before.

Judy Oskam 23:23

Yes, yes, a whole car, yes.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 23:26

And so, you know, that's uh, you know, an opportunity or a time where you can, when something like that makes you angry or upset or irritate you, design how you're gonna respond to that. And as a result, yeah, I was able to diffuse my anger or my sense of irritation over the fact that I was very inconvenienced for a period of time.

Judy Oskam 23:45

So what advice have you received uh that's really helped you do that as far as keep moving forward?

Linda Fogg-Phillips 23:52

You know, um, some other advice, and here again, this this comes from BJ. Um and he's, you know, at a time that I was really struggling to reinvent myself and to find my way, he was so encouraging. And he gave me the opportunities to grow, to step into those difficult situations and learn and grow. But what he really helped me do, and and this is part sort of part of celebration, actually, is he'd always look back and said, Wow, look how far you've come or look what you've done. Um, when I wouldn't see that, uh, but he'd say, Look where you were a year ago. And so, you know, that encouragement or that advice to always go, okay, yeah, you know, today, today you may not feel like you're doing as well as you did yesterday. Uh, but you know, today is a different day in different situations and different circumstances, and you actually are doing pretty dang good. Just take a look at that and give yourself credit and realize that we've come a long way, even from yesterday, if not yesterday or even 10 years ago. You know, we're all making strides forward. I think as humans, we're always evolving, we're wanting to be better. And so recognizing that, but taking time to look back and reflect and see how far you've come, I think is important.

Judy Oskam 25:07

Well, and I always see you doing that with others. Why don't we do that as much with ourselves, though? That's that's a question.

Linda Fogg-Phillips 25:15

You know, yeah, that is a good question. I think I think it comes down to the fact that it's easier for us to celebrate others' successes and to recognize and highlight their successes. We tend to be very self-critical. And so as a result, I think it's harder for us to do on our own. I do think um celebrating and reflecting and really recognizing how far we've come is a skill. And it's a skill that we get better at the more we do it. Um, but it does sometimes take somebody from the outside that goes, wow,

Celebrate Progress And Keep Going

Linda Fogg-Phillips 25:45

look how far you've come. Look what you've done. And sometimes he will even point out things that I didn't even notice or realize were a milestone or a step, not even just a milestone, but a step forward for me. Um, it it's I often laugh with him. Uh, I started teaching with him at Stanford even before Tiny Habits. We start, we were uh working in the space of online behavior, and he had me come out to Stanford um every other week to teach uh an adult class on Facebook for parents, um, which in turn we we wrote a book on. But and I reflect back and it's like, man, BJ, and that was back in 2009. I said, you know, the first time I got on an airplane and traveled by myself without my children or my spouse was really scary for me. And I sort of laugh now because I I was on a plane yesterday, I'm getting on a plane tomorrow, I go by myself everywhere now. Yeah. But you know, I look back and it's like I was it was just foreign to me. And it's because that was not my focus. My focus was being a stay-at-home mom. Sure. And so I really had the opportunity to go anywhere or travel anywhere by myself. And I really lacked the confidence that I could do it. But once I did it, I found that it was really quite fun and very liberating as far as um, you know, building confidence in myself. So uh, you know, look back on your successes, look back on your what you, you know, how you've moved forward, look back on um, you know, where you were even a year ago and where you're at now. Now, sometimes you might say, Well, I'm not any better off than I was a year ago, but actually, I think if you look closely, you probably are. You're not looking at the right thing. Yes, yes.

Judy Oskam 27:14

Well, that's fantastic. Well, Linda, thanks so much for chatting with us today. And again, we'll look forward to learning more about Pearl Habits. We'll put information in the show notes. Any last comments you have for the audience?

Linda Fogg-Phillips 27:27

The only last comment I have is believe in yourself and celebrate every single day.

Judy Oskam 27:32

Okay, you heard it here. Celebrate, celebrate every single day. You can find more about our guest in the show notes. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast player. And remember, if you've got a story to share or know someone who does, reach out to me at judyoskam.com. Thanks for listening.