#4 - How to Be Boss When You're Afraid of Failing

In this episode of Being Boss Emily and Kathleen discuss the fear of failure, not having enough experience, leaping from the day job to the self-made dream job, and bridging the gap between where you are and where you want to be.

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Kathleen Shannon: 0:04

Get your business together, get yourself into what you do, and see it through.

Emily Thompson: 0:10

Because being boss is hard when you work and life is messy, making your dream job of your own isn't easy.

Kathleen Shannon: 0:18

But getting paid for it, becoming known for it. And finding purpose in it is so doable. If you do the work,

Emily Thompson: 0:28

being bossed a podcast for creative entrepreneurs, from Emily Thompson,

Kathleen Shannon: 0:34

and Kathleen Shannon,

Emily Thompson: 0:36

welcome to Episode Four.

Unknown: 0:37

How

Emily Thompson: 0:38

to be boss when you're afraid of failing. Thank you guys so much for joining us today. I can't believe that we're a month into being boss. All of you, our listeners have been blowing our minds with all of your sharing and gushing, and emails and tweets you seriously Rob, one of the biggest to dues on our list of podcast things to do when Kathleen and I were planning what this podcast would be was that we wanted to be really real with you. We wanted to talk about specific things that you want to hear about, not just the stuff that we wanted to gab about

Kathleen Shannon: 1:11

though we like gabbing don't we and we do a lot.

Emily Thompson: 1:16

So we put a form on our website so that you can ask us questions that we'll try to answer and some listener question episodes. And if that makes you all itchy to submit a question, you can find a form on our site at love being bossed calm,

Kathleen Shannon: 1:31

and it's also I love getting questions and responses on our Instagrams. So be sure to follow our Instagrams mine is at and Kathleen. And we're also doing the hashtag love being boss. No, I'm sorry, we're doing the hashtag being boss podcast. them I think

Emily Thompson: 1:50

people are doing love being boss, just being boss and being boss podcast. Yeah, my Instagram is Emily m underscore Thompson. And we are we're sharing lots of fun stuff over there. So please come visit. But we've been getting a lot of questions on our forum on our site from listeners, more than I thought we would ever get in our first month. And people are wanting to dig deeper on certain topics. So that's exactly what we're going to be doing today. But first, if you've been listening to being boss, and you like what you hear, we invite you to take a moment to rate us on iTunes. We know that that's where most of you're listening to us as we're still totally in the obsessive number checking phase. And we need your love. We have a goal to get featured on iTunes, and your support is what's going to help us get there. Also, if you hate us, that's where you can go listen to cereal.

Kathleen Shannon: 2:50

Listening to cereal, because I'm obsessed. I'm ready for a follow up. But whatever. Oh, yeah, I

Emily Thompson: 2:55

agree. I agree. I'm trying to finish it, trying to finish it. So um, shameless plug over Kathleen, have at it.

Kathleen Shannon: 3:03

Okay, so to On today's episode, we got an email from Olivia. And Olivia is a PR professional who wants to quit her job to do her own thing. But she's coming up against naysayers and her own fear of failure, as well as her perceived lack of experience. So I'm going to go ahead and read her email through us to you. So here's what Olivia said. She said, Hi, ladies. I just discovered your podcast and I am in love. My heart is seriously so full from listening to your advice and experience, and has me really excited about my creative goals. Well, thanks Olivia.

Emily Thompson: 3:41

That makes me blush.

Kathleen Shannon: 3:44

She says I'm a PR professional slash writer. And it's my dream to launch a PR firm someday. A few months ago, I sat down wrote a business plan and got serious about making this dream a reality. However, after talking to multiple professionals who've been working in the industry for five to 10 years, basically told me that I'm too young and inexperienced to launch my own business right after college, and to wait until I've held a senior role before I consider going solo. Basically, all of them told me not to follow the stream. Olivia says, I know I have the talent, experience and hustle to make this dream happen. Unfortunately, I think it's the fear of failure, comparison to others. And my in quotes, lack of experience that's holding me back from taking small steps to turn my goal into a reality. Now this is a broad question, but do you have any advice for someone like me who is trying to make their entrepreneurial dreams happen right after college? Any steps I should take or words of wisdom you have to offer. Thank you so much for taking the time to read my story. I'm truly in love with my PR career and it's my dream to be my own boss. Every day. I see myself being the president of a PR agency I built from the bottom up. It's just a matter of getting started and having a support system. That's which is Olivia. Okay, Olivia. First off, whenever you do your own thing, there will be naysayers. There will be the people who don't believe in you. And then there will also be those people who love you and support you like your friends and your family. But they're really scared by the thought of you doing your own thing. Now, when it appears that someone doesn't believe in you, it means that they're putting themselves in your shoes. And they are scared, not just for you, but for themselves. But guess why? Being an entrepreneur, it's not for everyone. So I'm going to share a little bit more later in the episode on how to turn your well meaning but scared friends and family into your number one fans. But first, I want to talk to you, Emily, I want to hear your experience. So Emily, I know that you started your entrepreneurial journey right out of college, right? And, like, tell me a little bit or tell our audience about your experience. Did you encounter any of these naysayers? Were you scared? Did you feel like Olivia?

Emily Thompson: 6:09

I absolutely. I absolutely did. Period. So I started I started the business that became in digital biography. The week after I graduated from college with a geography degree. So.

Kathleen Shannon: 6:24

So love sounds relevant to your industry.

Emily Thompson: 6:27

I know. Right? So if you want to talk about talking about starting a business with big dreams, or actually at that point, the real big dream

Kathleen Shannon: 6:34

wasn't your business. Didn't you do jewelry first?

Emily Thompson: 6:38

I did. I did. So I been a maker forever. I actually have been a business owner in one way or the other since I was 18. And that's going to totally be another story for another episode. But I did I bought a tanning salon when I was 18. And I ran it for a couple of years. And then I sold it. And

Kathleen Shannon: 6:58

I'm like dying at the thought of you owning a tanning salon. Like I feel like right there should be a movie of your life. And it starts with you only like wiping down a tanning bed.

Emily Thompson: 7:08

It should because that was my life for a couple of years. Like when I was 1819 That's exactly what I did.

Kathleen Shannon: 7:15

That was my anyone ever like cook from the inside out in a tanning bed?

Emily Thompson: 7:18

No, but I said another girl fall asleep in one way. And I had to like go in and get her like I think she was probably on drugs.

Kathleen Shannon: 7:27

or anything like ever Grote. Like Did anyone ever pee in the tanning bed? Or?

Emily Thompson: 7:31

No? No, we never had anything gross. It's just like the general gross ness of tanning beds.

Kathleen Shannon: 7:38

Okay, so moving on from tanning beds. But I'm like so fascinated by this. I want to dominate our podcast,

Emily Thompson: 7:45

talk. I could talk all day about 10 years we'll have to do a personal meeting to talk about that. No, I've been a business owner one way or the other since I was 18. More or less. I did some retail management for a while I started making jewelry in college. Actually no I started making jewelry when I owned the tanning salon. And because I would sit there in the back like during the slow seasons and just make myself jewelry. It was ridiculous. And I started selling them like people would come in and see what I was doing and they would buy them. I sold the sayings. I sold the tanning salon, I moved back to Florence. And I started officially selling my jewelry on Etsy. And that's that's where that began. And I built a website for myself trying to get off of Etsy for lots of reasons. I built a web set for myself. I taught myself how to code websites. When I was I don't know, 14 and 15 before I could drive that's what I did. I sat at home and like would redesign my like online journal. So um, so yeah, the week after the week after I graduated college, I was wrapping up my jewelry business because it was Christmas. I graduated December It was Christmas. I just had the most insane holiday season ever for my jewelry and I was done. I was done doing jewelry period. So I decided to I decided to start selling my website services because I had built this website for myself. And people were contacting me just as much about this website as they were the jewelry that I was making and selling on it. And so people were asking me to build their websites. So anyway, long story long story shorter. I did I started I started selling my web design services the week after I graduated college with my geography degree, because that's what I was going to school for. And I remember in some of the last weeks of school, I had a professor who told me, he told the whole class that we were all going to graduate and become GIS weenies and GIS geographic information systems, and it is as lame as it sounds. To me at least there are lots of people who do it and love it. But I did not want to be a GIS weenie. I wanted to do something for myself. So, um, so I did I launched the business that is now in the shop Wagner.

Kathleen Shannon: 10:04

Okay, when did you realize like, while you were getting your degree in geography that this was not what you wanted to do. I mean, yeah, why didn't you change courses in college?

Emily Thompson: 10:15

Um, because I realized it way too late. Like about a month before graduation, I almost quit. Like I really because I knew I wasn't going to do it, but I was a month away. And so I just finished it. Okay, so

Kathleen Shannon: 10:29

were you ever scared after you graduated and you're going down this path? Or were you just kind of in it?

Emily Thompson: 10:36

I think I was in it. I mean, I remember being scared. But also remember not not knowing what to be scared of. Like, I was really just in it. Like, I just dove into it without really worrying about

Unknown: 10:46

Yeah, it's like you need a certain level of I think, how do you say it now? Your

Emily Thompson: 10:51

horrible ignorant night

Kathleen Shannon: 10:53

night, mate? Why can I never say this word? neat. Wait, yeah, right. It's an impossible word to say. Okay, so adorable ignorance. Yes. Adorable. You need a certain level of adorable ignorance to do some things scary.

Emily Thompson: 11:09

Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon: 11:10

Like start your own business or jump out of a plane or right whatever it is

Emily Thompson: 11:14

that you do you have to you have to just go for it. Okay, but

Kathleen Shannon: 11:19

now how many years later? Like, how long has it been since you started down that path?

Emily Thompson: 11:23

It was a little over five years ago.

Kathleen Shannon: 11:25

And now you have a bangin business.

Emily Thompson: 11:27

Now Now I have a six figure business. I have a total boss or employees total Boss Lady, and I'm not stopping there. So Olivia, if you need a story about someone who graduated college start a business with absolutely no experience. There you go.

Kathleen Shannon: 11:45

All right, well, I'm going to jump in and say that I think that there is some validity to gaming experience first. And so my own path is that I graduated college with a degree in graphic design, I got a job right out of college, excuse me. I got a job right out of college working on a alternative weekly newspaper. And I was there for a year before I started working at a small advertising agency with my sister who's now my business partner. And she had been there for, I don't know, maybe 10 years, and then I was there for she was there for 13 years total total before she left to start braid with me. And I was there for about five years. And I did work my way up to senior art director. And I just felt like the face of advertising was changing. And I have been blogging and creating traction there. So I felt like I was in a really good place, I was getting enough work on the side designing things like wedding invitations and logos for solopreneurs. So I was getting enough work on the side that I felt like I could make the leap, it was still a scary leap to even quit my job and have so much experience. So maybe that's just saying that no matter when you decide to start your own thing, whether it's right out of college or with a lot of experience under your belt, it can be a scary thing. I don't think you will ever feel like you're, you know what you're doing entirely. And so, I like to think of it almost as renting versus owning. And so whenever you rent a house, it's awesome, because you have a landlord who can fix your things for you. And if things go wrong, you just pick up the phone, you don't have to pay for a new furnace, or plumbing and all of that stuff. But again, you can't really make it your own because you're renting from someone else. Whereas like whenever you own your own house, you can paint the walls, whatever color you want. You can knock down walls, you can do whatever you want to this space, but it's yours, you're responsible for everything that happens. And so it's the same with a business. And I think that whenever you work for someone else first, basically, you are getting paid to continue to learn your craft, and you're getting paid or you can basically make mistakes on someone else's dime. And you don't graduate knowing at all and I'm sure that you know that Olivia, I'm sure that you are probably a lifelong learner. But it's cool if you can learn and make mistakes on someone else's dime. Because here's the deal. Like if you quit your job and you launch your own thing and you feel like you don't know what you're doing, like nothing kills creativity, like desperation, being afraid of having to pay your bills of getting clients. It really squashes the dream of being the president of your own business really fast. So I think that there is something to say for getting experience under other people. So yeah, that's kind of like my initial thoughts on it. Now. I don't really know That, like your particular situation, I mean, maybe you're a lot more bold and brave than I was, maybe you can just launch this thing. And also the internet is much more like the world is just much more accessible now than it was whenever I even three years ago, whenever I started braid, that's where I'm at with like, gaining experience can be a really good thing and creating a side hustle. You know, while you're getting paid to learn on the job, is a really good place to be like, I will never be one to downplay the importance of a day job for like finding your mentors. That said, like, if you're working a day job that's not in your industry, or the industry that you want to be in or the path that you want to go down. start going down the path, you want to go by maybe getting a different day job with mentors and people that you really like.

Emily Thompson: 15:53

I agree. And

Kathleen Shannon: 15:54

are you ever there writing an email? Emily? No.

Emily Thompson: 15:57

I'm writing notes so that I can respond to what you're saying to me. Don't call me out No. You saying that made made me think about something. And I agree, I think whenever you think about the beginning of my business, I know that it would have been so much faster. If I wasn't piecing together my pieces of experience from owning a tanning salon and multiple or whatever businesses, those were the design skills that I learned in map classes in geography, and the web design skills that I learned myself, you know, eight years prior. So whenever I think about that, you know, there's a lot to be said about having that experience before you go at it. But there's also a lot to be said about, about the amount of hustle that you do when you have no other option than to succeed.

Kathleen Shannon: 16:51

That's true. And it's even if you are doing a side hustle while you work a day job there, you can't close the gap until you make that full leap. Because there are only so many hours in the day. And so it is still an act of faith. Whenever you quit your job to do your own thing, or you graduate school and decide to do your own thing. I also want to mention, whenever I was working in an agency, I learned a lot of stuff about client relationships, email management, trafficking, my jobs, all the things that go into accounting, I remember one time I made a, I was really a print designer. And I made a$5,000 mistake, I had run I had sent a direct mail piece to print with like the wrong phone number or maybe a typo or something on it. And it was a$5,000 mistake, and I made myself sick over it, I felt so bad. And so even though I didn't have to pay for it, I didn't count on my paycheck, I remember going to our accountant and saying I will, I will figure out a way to make up the money for this mistake. And I did and I by hustling, you know within the walls of this advertising agency that I was working at. And so I learned a lot I just I learned a lot about kind of more of the admin side of things and the strategy side of things. And then I was able to create a six figure business from the get go from day one, with Well, probably from like, three months in, at three months in, we were at a six figure or on our way to a six figure business. And so, Emily, and for you It took about five years. And for us it took three months. But that's because we had spent a lot of time making a lot less than that at our agency jobs. So like building it up and gaining that experience and experience is compensation, too.

Emily Thompson: 18:47

It is it is and I think it's also I think it's just important to know that whether you have experience going into being you know, an entrepreneur, or you go into it with with what I was actually making notes for this podcast last night elevate David and I go, I just realized that I'm street smart. Like on this really cool kind of badass level where all of my business experience all of my client relationship, like all the things that I know, and I coach my clients on now, it's stuff that I had to learn the hard way. I mean, and it's so it's complete and utter like business street smarts that I have. But I want to note that, that I think that being an amateur just means that it's going to be really messy, and you're going to mess up a lot. Period, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. It just means that you're going to go through a lot of trial and error. But that's what makes you learn periods. So Kathleen, you know your story about making that $5,000 mistake that it happened whether you were in an agency or not like there's going to be mistakes. It's just if they're going to be on your own dime or someone else's.

Kathleen Shannon: 19:55

Exactly. And I've made I'm sure I've made mistakes. I have called cost me money since then it's not as clear cut because it's not a typo on a print piece. But maybe not closing a client deal because I didn't follow up.

Emily Thompson: 20:11

Yeah, you learn those things. You just learn those things one way or the other, whether they're on your dime or someone else's. You just get to chiefs.

Kathleen Shannon: 20:19

I want to talk a little bit about the naysayers again, and I still encounter like, really well being naysayers. One being my dad, who's actually my biggest, he's one of the biggest, supportive people of my sister and I, we own our business together, and he just really is proud of us. But whenever we're I don't know, at like Halloween time, my sister makes her kids really elaborate costumes from scratch. And they're really neat, or she'll make them really cool cakes on their birthday. Or maybe we'll work on a project together like a, like a holiday craftsy project. And my dad always says, if this braid thing doesn't work out, you too, should design Halloween costumes for a living. And it's just so funny, because we're doing really well. But there's still that we'll have this spray thing doesn't work out. And so, again, I think it's just those people in your life that are scared for you, they want you to do well, but they can't imagine doing it themselves. And I did not come from a family of creative entrepreneurs. So I want to just bust the myth that you have to come from a family of entrepreneurs to be one yourself. That's not true at all.

Emily Thompson: 21:33

Yeah, no, I definitely didn't either. I am I am the weird, not black sheep, because it's not a negative thing. But I'm definitely the only one in my family that is one of like, stepped out of the traditional workforce. And then, you know, sort of doing something on my own. So no, you don't have to come from a mom and dad who who are just as crazy as we are.

Kathleen Shannon: 21:53

And I think that in Olivia's case, some of her naysayers are other creative colleagues or professionals that do want the best for her. And I want to say something else about some of the naysayers, especially whenever it comes to being a creative entrepreneur, is that a lot of us are creating business models that have never been done before. Yeah, exactly. And so it's hard to describe what you want to do and how you want to do it differently to people who are old school, or more traditional in the way that they work. So whenever Tara and I told some of our creative colleagues that we wanted to specialize in doing branding and business visioning for creative entrepreneurs, and do graphic design and writing for other creatives. They were like, yeah, good luck. Good luck making any money doing that. And we had a lot of luck, because we're doing it and we're doing it well. And we have a lot of people who are really disappointed whenever we say sorry, you're not a right fit for us, because you're a government agency, or you're like a university that just needs some graphic design. And that's not what we do. And they're like, well, you would think good luck, good luck to you like they're offended. And they don't understand why anyone would ever turn down work, because they come from this old school game of like hustling and taking on anything and everything. So that's just like a if you're a naysayer is old school or traditional like you just don't worry. Don't worry about them not believing in you.

Emily Thompson: 23:23

Right. And they're going to be naysayers either way. And the one thing that you just have to remember is like one, they usually do have your best interests in mind. And to use that to empower you to just prove them wrong.

Kathleen Shannon: 23:35

Period. Well, so this is like if you want to start your own thing, one of the things that you should do is establish a support system, you find your tribe, get your family and friends on your side by sharing your vision and asking for help. So this is for like, the more well meaning naysayers are the people who are scared for you. And that can even be Olivia, your creative colleagues is how can you get these PR professionals on your side. So maybe it is by you know, you spent all that time mapping out your business plan, and you're excited and you have this vision, we'll share that with the people you trust and love. And ask them how they can help you whether that's by eye so like for me, and my husband is an electrical engineer. And so but he's really good at spreadsheets, and I suck at that sort of thing. And so I can ask him to create a spreadsheet for me and help me build really technical systems for tracking data. And that makes him feel good. But then there's also asking my parents, you know, just even sharing the little victories with them. Anytime we get a new client letting them know my dad every week, so I hang out with my parents every weekend like a big dork, and it's awesome. I every week my dad will be like, Did you get new businesses week We're like, Yeah, we got one new client or two new clients, or we're launching a new product or I started a podcast. So sharing the little victories is a really good way to get people that love you, to support you.

Emily Thompson: 25:15

I agree, I one of my big things for sort of conquering the scariness of starting your own business is to just cultivate your pack, and which is the same thing like, create that support support system of people who understand what you do, or who don't understand what you do and just simply care about you. Because, because those are the people who are everything I know, you know, for me, and growing this business from little to no knowledge, basically, and to where it is now. It was, it was my pack of people that kept me from just stopping Kathleen, you, for me was a huge one, whenever I started following your blog, and then you went freelance as well, I will never forget that blog post that you did. That was about, about how you manage your client projects. Like and and I remember at that point, I think, you know, I reached out, and we're kind of starting to talk at that point. But I do remember those sorts of things. Like finding people who are in the same boat as you, or a little bit ahead, or wherever that may be finding those people and just becoming their friends. Yes.

Kathleen Shannon: 26:25

And a great way to do that is to invest in conferences. If you're a graphic designer, one of my favorite is called designer vaycay. And it's every fall in Palm Springs, it is a great way to just kick it in a bikini with hundreds of other boss, Lady designers. But even if you're not a graphic designer, whatever your industry is, you know, maybe hit up a conference or small workshops or retreats, find your tribe, make friends, because those people will support you collaborate with you and lift you up whenever you need it. So Emily, like you're in my tribe, for sure. And since day one, and now we're we have this podcast together, we have big dreams for what's next right together. And so it's really, it's, it's cool. And some of my very first, as one of the first people that ever commented on my blog, went on to do really cool creative things and tapped me for help and vice versa. So yes, find your tribe cultivate your pack. One thing I wanted to say to Olivia is, or anyone else who is still working a day job is to freelance on the side, and to do the side hustle. But to only take on people that you want to take on it's like only take on dream customers only work on projects that you want to share and show off. only do the stuff that you want to be known for like that is imperative, like you have the benefit of the security of a steady paycheck. So you don't need to be hustling on the side. Unless you're trying to support some kind of crazy, expensive lifestyle. That's a whole other issue. That'll be another episode. But that's another that's another thing that you can do. If you want to do your own thing is to only take on the work that you want, especially if you're doing a side hustle.

Emily Thompson: 28:20

Yes, I agree with that one.

Kathleen Shannon: 28:22

Okay, so like if you want to do your own thing, and you need like so one of Olivia's things was feeling like she lacked the experience. So like, what are some good ways to gain experience? Even if you want to quit your job? Like what are some other things that creative entrepreneurs or aspiring creative entrepreneurs can do to gain experience?

Emily Thompson: 28:44

The Internet makes entrepreneurial ism in 20. What is this 2015? with this? Yes. So I guess easy. I don't want to say easy because it is not easy, but easy.

Kathleen Shannon: 28:55

You can Google it.

Emily Thompson: 28:57

Yes, exactly. You can totally Google it. So for me, doing you know, for five years, this five years have been growing experience period. That is simply all I've been doing. And you can do that whether you're in school, or whether you have an agency job or a job anywhere or not. It's just about learning how to find opportunities, and take them even if in some cases, even if you don't want them like generally gaining experience and embracing opportunities to learn practical skills is imperative for doing this entrepreneurial thing. And you can do that in lots of ways. For me in the beginning, you know, totally bootstrap my business. It was things like blogging, like finding blogs that talked about things that helped me so kathlynn years for me whenever you were freelancing was huge. And how you did like how I freelance, the cute little blog series you did so those things are really helpful for me, finding finding newsletter lists that you can sign up for

Kathleen Shannon: 30:01

I mean, so many people are out there sharing their gifts and knowledge for free. I think also doing e courses and workshops, and even stuff like lynda.com. And I'll include that in the show notes. But that's like, if you need to literally learn how to use Photoshop.

Emily Thompson: 30:20

That's how I learned how to use like Photoshop and Illustrator and InDesign was lynda.com, I and I still have subscriptions. I use Adobe Business Catalyst to do our website development as well we put our clients and I still have a subscription to a place called Chi Hugo calm, that simply has video tutorials on like how to use the system. And like I know how to use it, but they have really great things for, for how to make sites like extra cool, like adding new features that that aren't easily built into BC, but it makes me a better and more viable web developer because I take the time to like, soak up these ridiculous tutorials is the nerdiest thing that I do. But it's it's about getting that experience.

Kathleen Shannon: 31:04

And I think that there's like this really cool phase of researching and planning and learning and practicing. But at some point, you have to actually get in the you have to get in the game to gain experience. So make sure that you don't get stuck in the loop of researching and learning. I've seen so many potential creative entrepreneurs never make that leap. Because they never feel as if they have enough credentials, or they don't have the right knowledge to really pull the trigger on it. And so at some point, you have to just get out there and do and if that whether that's for like maybe your first client who's maybe not so dreamy, or if you do get a dreamy client, even if you're scared, you've just got to do it. And if you don't have that dream client doing it for yourself. And so for like Emily, you, for example, you built a website for yourself. And I know so many web designers and developers, that's how it started is that they did it for themselves first. Whenever I first started freelancing it was because I designed a wedding invitation for myself and it went not viral. But like it got featured on a really cool popular blog. And then other people wanted me to design their wedding invitations for them. And creating my own personal brand or not creating it because I but cultivating cultivating it and sharing, capturing and shaping and sharing who I am online, made other people want to know more about how they can do that for themselves. So gain experience by researching, planning, learning, practicing, but then also doing and sharing.

Emily Thompson: 32:47

Amen.

Kathleen Shannon: 32:48

And what about I feel like there's a lot of talk about like mentorship and I, every time I hear the word mentor, I think of Tina Fey and jack Donaghy on 30 rock, right? And I don't even know like how does a mentor work? Like do you? Do you hire someone. And I recently read an article that was saying you don't, you don't really find a mentor, you don't really go out and hire a mentor. It's this thing that happens. And it can also be people that you don't even know but that you follow. So authors that maybe you learn a lot from just follow their work. Most people have blogs out there, just pick a couple of people and stick with them. Because I find that you can also diffuse where you're learning and gaining information from and sometimes it can be conflicting information that can be really confusing whenever you want to launch and do your own thing. It's like pick a couple of people that you admire, and stick to them.

Emily Thompson: 33:48

Yeah, that's exactly what I did. I mean, I can, I can probably pick out a couple of people that I followed for the first couple of years. And it was just random, not really random blogs, but blogs that I enjoyed. And businesses that I liked. And I never talked to any of them like we weren't official mentoree and mentor. But I definitely see those people as like people who helped me build my business because they were sharing these free gifts of knowledge. You can find a mentor without actually paying for someone, you just have to follow someone closely enough to see what they're doing, and emulate it. But you also have to make it your own.

Kathleen Shannon: 34:27

So two people that I followed from the beginning and basically I consider their books, my business Bibles, is Rene Brown. Her book Daring Greatly, was huge in just being brave enough to show up and be seen and to do this thing. And then also the book rework by 37 signals. I still revisit that one regularly and then I I still read other stuff, but whenever I'm starting to feel scared or confused and what I'm doing, I always Go back to those two books, and they help align me on my path again. And I'll include those books in the show notes. Are there any specific resources, Emily, that you follow?

Emily Thompson: 35:11

there? There are very let's see, one, I guess early in my business was that blog Inc. and mom Inc. And there was another one like joy Chico wrote them, like in the very early days, like those are really huge for me, because it was very practical knowledge on like, how to do a proposal for a client like things that I had never done before. They were very nicely laid out. Those were my Bibles for the first probably a year or two.

Kathleen Shannon: 35:38

It's cool that years or more, like practical advice, because I learned all that agency. And then minor, more like philosophical, yeah, cuz that's what I was lacking from a lot of my practical experience is this new journey of creative entrepreneurship, and kind of I needed like that rallying cry,

Emily Thompson: 35:56

right? Well, and I definitely did both, like rework for me was is definitely one of those like, I actually have, I think four copies at the studio like is the kind of thing that I give to people, whenever they come in, and like just need to, like, get their shit together in general, and like, what they're going to do with their business. I give that book to people. So that rework is a really good one. But yeah, the ink books by by was a joy Joe, and someone else I can't remember, I'm horrible with names. And yeah, they were just they were a couple of things like that. I love like the graphic designers like Handbook, like the designer guild Handbook, I bought one of those a couple of years ago, that I looked at tons to figure out like, how I should be pricing my products and, and what what I should be doing, like what a web design project should include. So yeah, very practical things. There are tons of resources out there when they book B books, podcasts. These days, whenever Kathleen and I were starting this podcast, I listened to a podcast about how to start a podcast that, you know, helped us sort of do the work that helped us create this thing that neither of us had any experience doing.

Kathleen Shannon: 37:08

Other resources. Good point is like maybe even partner up with someone and I, I has a really tricky subject for me partnering with people because I partnered with my sister, so I can trust that we have each other's best interests in mind that we're never going to really try and screw each other over. Right? So it was, it's been really easy. And there's also that shorthand of knowing each other our whole lives, like she's always been the boss of me. So it's really easy to standardize. together. We trade we trade being boss, though, sometimes I'm the boss of her. But um, but so even like for us, Emily with his podcast and partnering up on that. And we mentioned this in the last podcast is we asked each other tough questions like, Okay, what do we want with this, and it was really easy. But what I love about working with you is that I don't know how to edit together a podcast, but you're really good at figuring that stuff out. And then the I bring different skills to the table, like writing down our show notes, or setting our agendas, designing our marketing materials, stuff like that. And so I think it's finding a partner that complements your strengths and weaknesses is a really great way to gain confidence, like just not going it alone.

Emily Thompson: 38:24

Yeah, well, in that cultivating your pack thing, I think that that comes right back to that, like, you'll find that that pack people, whatever you want to call it. I heard it called a pack recently. And it's just in my head. I don't know if I love it or not yet. But But yeah, like, I

Kathleen Shannon: 38:37

think it's like a wolf pack.

Emily Thompson: 38:38

I know. And that's kind of like aggressive, but I don't hate that. So So yeah, cultivating a pack of people who can help you. But that means actually becoming friends with them is like just reaching out to people and say, Hey, I see you do brand designer, many logo one day,

Kathleen Shannon: 38:51

let's be friends. It's not like trading, trading business cards and leaving it at that No, definitely not. It's

Emily Thompson: 38:57

about cultivating relationships that will help you grow. And I have so many of those at this point in my business that and I could not be more grateful for them. So really, when it gets down to it, you will find that you have everything you need skills that you don't have, you don't have time to because you need to focus on what you're doing and just become friends with people who are going to help you. But you can also help them do it because it magical things could happen.

Kathleen Shannon: 39:22

So here's something I learned recently that I pass along to one of my own coaching clients is to create a list of 200 people. And so start an Excel spreadsheet or Google Doc spreadsheet, and start a list of 200 people that you admire, that you would like to work with or collaborate with that you would like to be your client. And so on the first column, you know, list the person in the next column list their URL and maybe their Twitter handle places where you can reach them. And then in the third column, and fourth column and all the columns After that, use those remaining columns to add notes of when you made points of contact with them. So even just like subscribing to their newsletter, or tweeting at them, or commenting on their blog posts, like that's a really good way to cultivate your tribe and to make sure that you're staying in contact with these people. And then assume the people who are like your soul sisters, or you know, the people who you're, you you're you're meant to do business with or to create friendships with, they will rise to the top, and you won't have to, like have a spreadsheet to remember to stay in contact. I like that though. It's so cool. Like, once you start the spreadsheet, it helps you really measure and stay on top of those relationships and how, how they get you places. And so like, let's say I started list of 203 years ago, I could go back and look and say, oh, wow, that person became my client. And that person became like, I collaborated with them on this piece. And that person ended up interviewing me for their podcast. So started list of 200 people that you want to work with or collaborate with. And that's a, it's just a good way to stay in touch. And to do that,

Emily Thompson: 41:16

yeah, start doing the work. I love that I love the idea of tracking those relationships to time I have to do that now. We'll see what I'll let you know how it goes.

Kathleen Shannon: 41:24

I know. And, you know, this is one of those things where I like shell out some advice. And I've got my list of 200 right now I started one this summer. And I've got about eight people in but one of those eight became a client really fast. So it works. Okay, so every creative entrepreneur, or aspiring creative entrepreneur is afraid of failing. And so Emily and I want to give you a few tips on how to be boss, even whenever you're feeling afraid, or your confidence is a little shaky. So Emily, share what what do you know about this? What do you know about the fear of failure?

Emily Thompson: 42:01

And get over it? No, only

Unknown: 42:05

it were that easy. No,

Emily Thompson: 42:06

realistically, though, um, Olivia, you mentioned something about about, you know, worrying about comparing yourself to others and seeing, seeing, seeing what people do and knowing that what you're doing isn't there yet, or whatever that may be. So yeah, in an ideal world, who cares, do what you do. But realistically, just simply know that the do the work phase of any business is not pretty. It's not always the most fun. And it's not usually immediately rewarding. But it will be it absolutely will be a know that all the businesses that you see that are already there, had the do the work phase, they had to go through the grind. And that's what you're going through now. And once you get through that, you'll be where they are or bigger or wherever that may be for you. Kathleen, I know you were at circle's conference this past what was it summer? Were you there the summer?

Kathleen Shannon: 43:04

Whenever Yeah, it was like June or July.

Emily Thompson: 43:07

It was a long time ago. But um, I love the illustration you had of like setting down What was it like having these planks that go to another. So here's

Kathleen Shannon: 43:18

how it works is that if you guys haven't heard the Ira Glass quote about the gap, which is like what gets you into wanting to be a creative, whether that's a writer or a designer or a PR professional, is you see other people doing it, and you have really great taste, and you want to be like them, but you don't have the skills yet. And also, I'll post the quote in our show notes, because it's a really good one, and I'm always referencing it. But anyway, so there's this gap between where you are and where you want to be. And the way that I see filling the gap is literally building your bridge as you go. And so putting down one plank at a time. And that's just the doing the work stuff, which we have talked about in our previous episodes. And we'll continue to talk about in future episodes, like what it means to do the work. But basically, you're putting down one plank at a time. And finally, over time you get to the other side. But every time you get to the other side, there's always a new gap. Right? And there's always people ahead of you, but there will also always be people behind you. And so just staying aware of that sometimes makes you feel a little less alone. We're all in this together. And one thing that I've started working out, like pretty seriously lately, I want to be a bodybuilder and sometimes I want to it's things like just don't want to go to the gym or I don't want to eat, you know, the stuff that supports some mad booty games. Anyway, so sometimes, and I read these cheesy quotes on Instagram, and one of them was that like time is going to pass anyway, so you might as well do the stuff that helps move you forward. And so like really Just like creating habits that are good habits because time is going to pass anyway. And so relating that not from like bodybuilding to creative entrepreneur is a friend of mine. And her name is Claire, and she has she's a cleansing coach. And she started her website a couple of years ago and just felt in over her head. And we're on a walk the other day. And she is like, I have so much content now, like two years later, one blog post at a time. She has a library of content that now she needs to hire someone to like help her reorganize and manage because there's just so much of it. So anyway, all that to say the little steps, they really do add up.

Emily Thompson: 45:45

I completely agree. And I think just the fear of failing in general failing comes when you don't do the work.

Kathleen Shannon: 45:51

So one of the things that I'm one of my favorite life coaches when said to me, and her name is Tammy Faulds, and she has a coaching program called inner travel coaching, I'll be sure to include her in the show notes if you're looking for a good life coach. But one of the things that she said to me one time was vision pools. And that if you know what you want that vision, like it just is, it's like a magnet like it just pulls you toward it. But I would like to add on to that by saying that you have to get really specific about what you want. And Olivia, it sounds like you have gotten specific about this vision of being the president and from the bottom up. And it sounds like you know what the work looks like, but but if you don't know what the end game looks like, it'll be really hard to get there. It'll be hard to take the baby steps to get there because you don't even know where you're going. Another thing I work with a ton of creative entrepreneurs who are afraid of failing. And whenever you are afraid of that is to look at the worst case scenario, like shine a light on the boogeyman and say okay, what is the worst that can? What is the worst thing that can happen?

Emily Thompson: 47:04

Yeah, actually the worst not your made up worst thing that can happen actually, worst thing.

Kathleen Shannon: 47:09

So like, for me, it's okay. For example, right now, Emily, like I'm supposed to send out some emails to some potential guests. Yeah, on this podcast. And they're really big deals, and I'm afraid of failure, or I'm afraid of rejection. But if I look at the worst case scenario, the worst case scenario is that they don't email me back. Or they email me back and say, Hey, now's not the right time. That's the worst that can that's not that. That's the worst case scenario. Okay, so like, in my business, the worst case scenario is that maybe we stopped getting any clients ever. And I have to go back to a day job. Like, that's the worst case scenario, which isn't like being a bag lady on the side of the street. Like, I guess the worst case scenario is losing my house and becoming a bag lady. And there would have to be a lot of feeling for that to actually happen. Like, I can just go get a day job. So define what your worst case scenario is. And think about, like, what are all the steps that you would have to take to get to that worst case scenario, like a lot of feeling would have to happen, and you can always re navigate like, one little failure at a time.

Emily Thompson: 48:20

Yeah, and that's not going to happen like this. Well, it could. And I'm not gonna say it's not because it could look really bad things could happen. But if you're doing the work, and you know, as time is passing, you can either just sit there and look around and then yes, you're going to fail, or as time has passed, and you can do the work and you're going to get somewhere, period,

Kathleen Shannon: 48:38

and you're learning along the way.

Emily Thompson: 48:40

Yes. And that is not

Kathleen Shannon: 48:42

free navigating. So I was coaching. I think I told you about this after it happened, Emily, we were having one of our weekly powwows and I was coaching a client who was paralyzed with the fear of failure. And I was like, we're all gonna die. I mean, YOLO you only live once. So just do it. And I remember telling you this Emily, Isaac, oh my god, I'm the shittiest coach ever. I told one of my clients that we're all going to die she might as well just do this thing.

Emily Thompson: 49:17

I remember you telling me that images laughing because that's that's kind of how I tend to talk to my clients who are especially around the studio, maybe not the clients but in the studio whenever I'm like having a freakout moment about things. I love watching Cosmos actually you told me to watch Cosmos love you hasn't seen Cosmos on Netflix yet watch it because there's a black hole in the middle of our of our solar and not our solar system, our universe. Not our universe. What is it? Our galaxy there's a galaxy made to work on my hierarchy of like stellar beings. But yeah, in the military galaxies, black hole. So if you really want to put things in perspective, we're going to get sucked into a black hole anyway.

Unknown: 49:57

Just do what you got to do.

Emily Thompson: 49:59

So that may be Worse than your, your you're gonna die anyway, but it should help put things in

Kathleen Shannon: 50:04

about how small and insignificant you are in the grand scheme of the universe, right? And that you got to do once your PR business, that's fine.

Emily Thompson: 50:15

We need to work on our advice giving. No, really they'll put things into that perspective. Like you have naysayers. You have this fear of failing. But really what is the worst case scenario, Olivia, you sound smart as hell, you have so much, so much. I think just gumption to do it, you sound so positive about your own skills, and you have this vision of what you want to do. That's what you need. That's called entrepreneurship right there. Your

Unknown: 50:43

worst case scenario is probably not living up to your potential.

Emily Thompson: 50:47

Right, and in which In which case, you go find a job that you love, and you rock that out, which is not going to be that's not

Kathleen Shannon: 50:55

died without having tried. You die without you having tried to do this thing. And that's the worst. That's the worst case scenario.

Emily Thompson: 51:03

It is. So do it. You know, Olivia and anyone else that's that's feeling this topic. No, you just you simply have to believe in yourself, period, and you have to do the work. You can rock a business right out of college, it is not impossible. It's hard. And it's messy. And you're going to do things that make you cry. And people are going to say things to you that make you cry. There's about bucking up and doing it. Because from someone who has done it, it won't be easy, but it will definitely be worth it.

Kathleen Shannon: 51:37

Yeah, and it won't be easy at any point on your path either. So even if you get five more years of experience, which is totally legit. And cool, too, is still not going to be easy to launch and do your own thing. It will always be scary. So I think it's about finding the confidence that you need to launch and do it. So if that's listening to this podcast, and you feel so inclined to put in your notice today and just do this thing or not.

Emily Thompson: 52:10

You choose to simply do something and believe in it wholeheartedly because if you believe in it, it will happen. Are we done rambling about this yet?

Kathleen Shannon: 52:18

Yeah. Yes. Thank you for listening to being boss from Emily Thompson and Kathleen Shannon. Find Show Notes for this episode at love being boss calm. Listen to past episodes, and subscribe to new episodes on our website at iTunes and on SoundCloud. If you like our podcast, show us some love by reviewing being boss on iTunes and sharing it with a friend. Do the work. Be boss, and we'll see you next week.

Unknown: 52:52

All right 123. We got this