welcome to episode number 52 this episode is brought to you by fresh books cloud accounting
Kathleen Shannon:so today we're talking about new year's resolutions what went well in 2015 what really sucked and what we're looking forward to accomplishing in 2016 and we decided to bring on our boss boyfriend's paul jarvis and jc to chat with us about this topic get your business together get yourself into what you do and see it through
Emily Thompson:being bosses hard blending work and life is messy making a dream job of your own
Kathleen Shannon:isn't easy but getting paid for it becoming known for it and finding purpose in it is so doable if you do
Emily Thompson:the work
Kathleen Shannon:being bosses a podcast for creative entrepreneurs brought to you by Emily Thompson and kathleen shannon check out our archives at love being boss calm so like i said in this episode we're talking about new year's resolutions and one of the things that is a great thing to make a resolution about is money i know it can be really uncomfortable to make projections or money goals but i have found the more specific i get about how much money i want to make the easier it is to achieve those goals so right now i want you guys to take out a blank checkbook and write yourself a check for how much do you want to make in 2016 and i want you guys to consider using fresh books to track that income freshbooks is the easy to use online cloud accounting designed specifically for creative entrepreneurs especially those of us who are not really super into tracking our money they make it so easy for you they are there to help you run your business and make you look like a pro while doing it you can track your income and expenses it is robust enough that you can really dig in but also simple enough that it is just easy to use try fresh books for free today go to freshbooks.com slash being boss and select being boss in the how did you hear about us section first off this is our 52nd episode podcasting our whole leader
Unknown:yeah
Jason Zook:hey congrats that's awesome yeah
Unknown:thank you
Emily Thompson:it's our first boss for some
Unknown:throwing that out there
Jason Zook:um i'm just glad that paul and i don't have to compete with each other anymore and now we just come out as one unit
Paul Jarvis:it's like the two boys holding hands emoji
Emily Thompson:and kathleen and i are the two girls dancing
Kathleen Shannon:yeah totally what it is
Emily Thompson:love it glad you're here
Kathleen Shannon:um so let's jump in i wanted to talk about new year's resolutions and of course you guys keep in mind because you're such goal setters
Emily Thompson:which was totally one of the reasons why i told bradley we need to do this because it would be funny making you guys set goals
Jason Zook:paul i want to know what i want to know paul's goals are because i don't even know
Kathleen Shannon:well first of all i want to know do you guys even do new year's resolutions do you believe in that
Paul Jarvis:no i don't so i'll even take it one step further and i don't even celebrate the holidays so all of this stuff that happens in like december in january i just kind of opt out of
Kathleen Shannon:and you're such a rebel is that like religious reasons or you're just anti or you
Emily Thompson:just didn't know
Paul Jarvis:exactly i'm the religion of dickheads and i am the like high priests
Emily Thompson:fun is the worst totally overrated so okay so you don't even do new year's you don't set goals why did we get you on this
Paul Jarvis:cuz that because i'm so pretty
Emily Thompson:gotcha oh yes so did you set a need for for podcast recording purposes what what are you going to be like focusing on what moods are you chasing after what fun do you hate the most this year
Paul Jarvis:wow yeah so are we going to be serious friends
Emily Thompson:yeah we'll each have three i'm looking at you
Unknown:alright yeah so serious
Paul Jarvis:yeah so for me it's more like a direction because i don't really care about goals in terms of specifics i just care that whatever it is that i'm doing kind of resonates with what like me My values are what I think I want to be doing. So I don't like launch, say a course and be like, okay, it needs to make $100,000 in six months, it's more like, I want to make a course that I believe in that I think is cool that my audience is telling me that they want. And obviously, it needs to do well enough to sustain me and the lavish, crazy rat life that I've created for myself, which actually isn't very lavish. But so it's more a direction for me, because I feel like goals can be limiting, in a weird way. Like, for example, a couple years ago, I didn't think that my goal was ever going to be to write a book, and then I wrote a bunch of books, and then I didn't think that my goals were going to be to start making products. And now that's pretty much my entire life. So I kind of just keep my options open. And I just kind of do the things that I want to do that even if they don't do well, I'm still gonna be stoked that I did them in the first place. And then if they work out, well, that's great. If they don't, then I got 50 other things that I can be working on.
Kathleen Shannon:I like that. I'm curious, are you going to take on any client work? Or are you not shutting yourself off to that either?
Paul Jarvis:Yeah, I'm not shutting myself off to that. But right now I make more money doing products than I do with clients. So I have a couple clients that I just I could never let go of like, I just liked them so much like working with Alexander friends. And like if she needs something on our website, she's awesome. Like, and I like working with her and the collaboration that we have. So there's a handful of clients, probably less than 10 that I would never want to stop being their like web person for but I'm not actively looking for projects. I haven't put any in my calendar. Everybody else I've told I'm not really taking them on and I send them elsewhere
Jason Zook:kind of thing. If anybody wants to send me hate mail, you can do that. Because I was the one who told Paul, Hey, man, you should make some products. You're pretty awesome. And he was like, Okay, I'll try that. And then bust out a$300,000 selling course that just has killed it. So you're welcome world.
Kathleen Shannon:I would like you, Jason, you and I, you know, I feel like I didn't even like clarify who you guys are because I just assume that everyone already knows. If you don't know Paul Jarvis and Jason's like, you should go to their online spaces. They are both geniuses when it comes to online marketing and selling and creating and just their general creative badasses. We'll include links to all their stuff in our show notes, but you can also listen to their podcast, invisible office hours. But yeah, if you've been listening and being bused for any amount of time, you've heard them both on our show. So Alright, let's keep going. Jason, do you do New Year's resolutions? Do you believe in them?
Jason Zook:Yeah, I so I used to be a resolution or I used to start off every year with some bold thing that I would do, I was going to lose weight, or I was going to stop drinking this or that or whatever. And I quickly realized that without making a lifestyle change, no one ever sticks to any of those things. And so two years ago, I decided that I wouldn't focus on resolutions, I would focus on reinvention. And so I wrote a post like this year focus on reinvention, not resolutions. And so for 2014, I kind of framed the entire year under the idea that I would do more writing, because I wanted to because I had told the world I was going to write a book a couple months before that. And I created a project for that called sponsor my book. And then I just really wanted to be consistently writing to see what came of that because I'd watched other people do it, Paul Jarvis being one of them. And I just was really introduced to this idea of I have a unique perspective with all the experiences I've had, why don't I share those on a consistent basis and see what comes of that. And so framing the year of 2014, as the year of writing was really interesting in what came out of that and the project and everything else. And so what 2015 started, I said, Okay, let's do this again, but this this year, I knew I was going to do a bunch of different projects. And I framed it as the year of experimentation. So kind of have just for the past two years. So it's not like I have 20 years of data to go off of but I've just picked a word that I've just said, this is the word This is what I want to do. And so, you know, last year I did 22 different projects, and I actually counted I did some homework before being on this podcast. I'm so I know I'm so prepared, but 22 different projects, that all made me some sort of revenue, so I probably did more than that. And they weren't on this like income report that I did for myself. Truthfully, my girlfriend made it I'm very bad at those types of organizational things. But I like framing the years as something that I can always just like pause and have a value that I can kind of go back on.
Emily Thompson:I love that I do that too. So a couple years ago, I started doing the exact same thing and I'm 2015 for me was the was the year of growth. And I actually have an Evernote that I opened it up because I couldn't remember what it was. And it says 2015 The year of motherfucking growth. Because that really wasn't playing around. And I think that I think that phrasing it that way, is really huge. Because I'm the same way whenever it comes to resolutions, like I've never been a resolution kind of person, like I love goals, and I will set goals all day long. But, but I hate the idea of like the clock turning to January 1, and all of a sudden you decide you're going to change for big things in your life. So a little less on that road, but totally on it for for thinking of like a general like path or mantra or whatever for the entire year that will guide just sort of whatever things you want to pick up and do.
Kathleen Shannon:So what's your what's your mantra? For? 2016?
Emily Thompson:I don't know. I don't know I need to figure mine out to growth is actually has definitely happened hugely.
Paul Jarvis:But but has motherfucking growth happened?
Emily Thompson:Yes, it is certainly. If I can grow Okay, good, like life and business have have grown hugely. And I don't know what I hadn't really even thought about what it would be for this year. I'd kind of forgotten that. That was the thing that I do until Jason said it. I barely didn't do as much homework as you did. But But I don't know maybe that's something that I figured out here today as well.
Kathleen Shannon:I'm a resolution are for sure. I love that the clock changes and boom, I'm a new person. I love it. This is surprise me at all. Definitely a resolution or and I tend to do actually resolutions, right on New Year's and then around my birthday, which is in May. So I have time between January and May to kind of reevaluate what's working about my resolutions and what's not working. But I you know, and sometimes I will have arbitrary days where I'm like, you know what, Today is a new day, I'm a new person. So I'm all about it. But I've actually, I would say in 2015 I was incredibly inspired by Jason and Paul. And so you guys, I've actually really informs my 2016 resolutions. But first, I'm going to tell you guys what I like about you. So what I like about you guys, is that you are incredibly creative, without drama, or at least I'm not seeing it. I feel like there's I don't know if it's I feel
Emily Thompson:like there's the ball drama behind the scenes. I'm not gonna play.
Paul Jarvis:Jason just yells at me that I cry. It's just It's crazy.
Kathleen Shannon:I mean, okay, like, Do you guys ever cry about Do you ever feel like anguish over your jobs? Or your creativity? or any of that?
Paul Jarvis:Yeah, I wanted to quit what I do, like 100 times this year?
Kathleen Shannon:Yeah, well, it's good to hear that my perception of you is that, like, you guys are just hammering away and no big deal. And then making bank.
Jason Zook:I think for me, it's interesting, because I do so many things that I don't put pressure on myself for any of them to be incredibly great. Or, you know, like nothing that I do hinges on just one thing working. So, you know, it's, it's interesting for me to look at, like the 22 different things I did make you money. I'm like, well, all of these added up to my income for the year. It's not just one was like, I mean, by my future was the biggest one obviously, be it. But even still, like the years couple years before that, it's I've always been focusing on one thing, and there's so much pressure and stress in that. And so I like having multiple things going, it really does take a lot of the pressure off of that and and it's actually really nice to have somebody else that you're doing stuff with I know you guys can relate to this, Paul and I totally relate to this often is that you get someone else who you can relate to who you can talk to and you know, we've we've found our our boss, boyfriends and girlfriends, which is cool. And I think that people listening this, you may not find them right away. But the more people that you can see who you align with, especially values wise, that can then direct some some business opportunities and things as well, where, okay, now you can make some money doing it.
Kathleen Shannon:And I think that's also what impresses me about you guys, is that you do you are really intentional about what you say yes to and what you say no to based on your values, and you don't seem to forget what those values are. So I guess ultimately, that really informed my resolution, which is I wrote it down my 2016 goal is to create without attachment to the outcome. So I know that this is definitely something that Paul, I've heard you talk about a lot is just really enjoying the process more than the desired outcome. But then I still feel like the money follows you guys and it and it has followed us like so. I also wanted to talk about what really went well in 2014 because I think that this is all a lot related. And so what went really well for me and for Emily is being boss. And it was a project that was born out of just us wanting to have fun. And it practically became a full time gig. And we, we made some money on it. So it's also turned into a business, we had to file an LLC together for having to hire a lawyer, you know, so that sort of thing. It's becoming a real, we opened a bank account. So it's a real deal. And I'm, I want to, here's my challenge. So I'm going to continue working on being boss throughout 2016 that I'm scared because we created it without attachment to the outcome. But now I want to get more intentional about the business growth behind it. I don't want to kill the spirit that it was conceived under. Does that make sense? It totally does.
Paul Jarvis:Because now there's like, now you got skin in the game. With this. Now there's question now it becomes Yeah, now there's added pressure. And it's interesting how there's like, I've noticed this too, it's like when you haven't done any, when you haven't done something that's done really, really well. And there's pressure to make something that does well, then when you make something that does well, it's like, oh, shit, like that. Second thing is almost more difficult. It's like if you write a book that blows up or build a course of blows up, and then the next thing is like, Was I a one hit wonder or one trick pony? Or am I going to continue to see similar things? I mean, I've noticed that too. Like, I've launched things I've done super, super well, I've launched things that have just been like, wow. And I just same with Jason like, I think we've I just like to have more than one thing going for me. And that's how my brain kind of handles that. is if Okay, if there's one thing because I launched some things that did shitty last year. But I had other things that were doing well, so for me, it was like, that thing did shitty, I'm gonna figure out to the best of my knowledge, why that didn't do well. Move forward, maybe just kill it completely, because I do that. And then but I also have these other things. So I think it's hot. And you guys do as well, like you guys obviously have this podcast, and it does really well. But you both have your other businesses, you're both doing different things, and launching products and services and all of that. So I think it's almost like insulation. So when you're doing multiple things, you're you're more insulated. It's like if you're an investor, it's like diversifying your investment strategy.
Jason Zook:Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing for me too, is that if you look at being boss, for you awesome, ladies, is that being boss didn't exist for you A while ago, right. And so your next opportunity is not going to be your last opportunity. And so for me, that's the piece of perspective that I look at with every project. Anything that I do, I'm like, Well, I'm gonna have another idea. Because when I was just the I wear your shirt guy, six years ago, I thought that was the only big idea I would ever have. And then when that project, you know, when I had the by my last name project that kind of came during I was like, Oh, now I have like, pasilla, I have a second idea. You know, this is interesting. And it didn't make like a ridiculous amount of money, it actually made a very small fraction of the amount of money that I reassure made. But it gave me the like permission for myself to say, I'm going to have more ideas, I don't have to put so much pressure on myself for every idea that I come up with. And I also don't have to try and like overly maximize and squeeze every dollar out of every project, because I'm going to have more projects. So the process, right, that's what you're getting back to is enjoy the process, you know, have fun with it, and really see where it takes you because you're probably going to come up with a couple more being bosses over the next couple years. But you're going to have a couple crappy projects that don't do anything there. You learn actually more from those than you do from the successful ones. Because that's where you learn stuff is when you mess up when you have mistakes and you have failures.
Emily Thompson:I agree and like I just want like pull this out and draw the parallel with every creative listening to this right now. Where you know, we all find that one client or have that one blog post or you know, whatever it is that is that like first thing or second theater thing or third thing that like does really well and if you start getting stressed about what comes next let it go. Basically because it's that was not your your first and only good idea there will be more in it's all about moving forward. I know that no being boss for Kathleen and I has been has been such a big a big thing in that sounds so lame, but it is. And it's something we talk about constantly in this. every conversation we have with each other. It's around, you know how much how much are we going to be putting into this coming up and and how diversify. Do we want to diversify what we're doing because we're both talking about you know, we have these separate businesses that we run. We have personal brands that we want to allow to flourish, as well as this combined effort of being boss and then all the things that it can do for us as well. So it's just it can be hugely overwhelming. Being in this place where you are your own boss, and you have say over the next projects that you take, and our creative minds go crazy with all the opportunities. And I find that like really invigorating and happy making, because that sort of freedom is, it's probably why all four of us are doing what we do this idea where we can we can act on on any will whim, though, we should be careful. And, and we have the opportunity to just sort of go and do the next project and make big ideas, bigger ideas, or learn from the big ideas that turn into crappy ideas. Because it is all just sort of like this step by step process of seeing what happens. And like we always say, we don't have this figured out, but we are enjoying the hell out of the process.
Kathleen Shannon:Well, and I think that my thing is that I'm always struggling the line between anxiety and anticipation. And on good days, I anticipate what's next. I can't wait for the next project. And on my not so good days. I'm like, Oh, my God, what's next? You're freaking out. And I have anxiety over it. So I don't know. It's just interesting to note that there is a fine line between anticipation and anxiety. And it's all the things that we've talked about on being boss that helps you stay in the anticipation mindset versus the anxiety mindset. And I just need to do that for myself. One thing I wanted to mention also speaking of a word and values, one word that I came up with a few years ago at New Year's was Wabi Sabi. And it's actually a word that my best friend introduced to me and it is the Japanese aesthetic of impermanence and imperfection. And but Okay, so some of the concepts behind Wabi Sabi
Emily Thompson:are read your notes in your cave, Catherine.
Kathleen Shannon:But his idea is that like, nothing lasts, nothing is forever, nothing is finished, and nothing is permanent. And so I think creating without worrying about the outcome, but also not being attached to perfection, is going to be huge for me in 2016. Hey, bosses, did you have a case of FOMO
Emily Thompson:that stands for the fear of missing out
Kathleen Shannon:when you saw all the being boss magic go down for our being boss vacation in New Orleans,
Emily Thompson:if you're not friends, because we are planning another boss vacation this spring in
Kathleen Shannon:Miami. So it was really hard to figure out what location to go to. But we've never been to Miami. And the reason why we do these boss vacations is to cultivate our creative pack, see different parts of the world, get some face time with each other, connect with each other and live the boss life. So to learn more details about this boss vacation, just go to love being boss, calm slash Miami.
Unknown:We hope to see you there.
Kathleen Shannon:But okay, I have a couple more questions for you guys, about creating and diversifying. But first, I want to know what what really sucked in 2015?
Paul Jarvis:Do you want to go first Jason,
Jason Zook:I need to look I literally have this document open? Because
Paul Jarvis:I should have made something like that. Well, I just had this paired. I feel like a pop quiz. No, I
Jason Zook:had this sheet that I can like keep track of all of our all my different income comes from? I don't know. So I have an interesting response to this. And that, how do you define what sucks. And I think part of that, for me is hard to say that something sucked, especially where I am now. Because I go into things with such low expectations. Because I don't want to have the anxiety, the anticipation. And I really try and hedge my bets on every project, I start knowing that something is going to do well enough that it covers what I'm doing. You know, I mean, I think like let's say tea tree, for example. So tea tree is an online learning platform that I started with a co founder over a year ago. And it has yet to make us like $10,000 recurring revenue truthfully, it makes us like $1,000 recurring revenue every month. And I know that I don't have the time to invest in that to build it to that that amount. But I also told myself when I started, this is a side project. This is something that I did to solve a problem on my own. And I said let's make it a little bit bigger for other people who might want to solve the same problem. And I'm not putting the pressure on myself that this has to be like all the other online course platforms or all the other SAS products that make X amount of monthly recurring revenue and I have to like compete with people on that. I just enjoy making it the way that is. So you could say that it's unsuccessful if $1,000 a month doesn't seem like a lot of money to you, but I look at as a success, because what I set out for to do it has done. Now there's there a lot of other opportunities that I could do with it, sure. But it's not the thing that excites me the most every day. So I'm not going to spend all my time on it, I'm just going to do enough that it keeps my co founder happy. And that keeps our customers happy. I don't, it's it's not like it can't happen. But it's almost like, I've done the research, I've done the customer validation, I've pre sold things. So I don't even get to a point where something is going to go wrong anymore. I mean, a couple years ago, sure, because I didn't know what I was doing. But now I really follow like minimum viable product, product validation stuff. And with any idea, any crazy idea, any small idea, just to make sure that it's worth what I'm doing. And again, like I just I don't put a lot of pressure on these projects. So even if something doesn't make a lot of money, that's not necessarily the outcome. For me, the outcome was, I want to learn a skill. So I'm going to do this project.
Emily Thompson:I would like to rephrase. What have you done this year that you learned the most from? Hmm,
Jason Zook:I think I think I would have to say by my future only because it was such a big project, it had a lot of moving parts, something that no one has ever done before. And I did more writing and research in that project than I've done ever before. And I think I just really learned the power of talking to actual customers, like having actual conversations on the phone, not emails, not surveys, anything else, and listening to them and seeing what they say, and not just trying to like push an agenda on them. But to go, Okay, here's what I want to do with this project. I presented that now respond, like reply, like what are you afraid of? What do you what stands out to you? What do you want to know. And the things that people said, were the things that helped shaped what that opportunity became, the fact that there's a community for my future only exists because people mentioned it multiple times on the phone calls, the fact that there was a payment plan option only exists because people mentioned that the fact that I wrote about it every day for two months leading up to the project, sharing every detail that I could think of was a big selling point for like 30 people, project cost $1,000. So me writing about it every day made me at least $30,000. So there's a lot of things that I learned that just I had ideas for. And because I tried them, I could see direct outcomes from them. And so I think that project because of its size and scope, and it was a kind of a big leap for someone to try working out is it you know, had a profound impact for me?
Emily Thompson:Awesome.
Unknown:What about you, Paul, what
Emily Thompson:did you learn the most? Or what such or what's up?
Paul Jarvis:So Well, I guess the what sucked was attention. Because I don't know, I feel like I'm a tell people that I'm like cilantro. You either really, really like me or think I'm the worst thing that shouldn't exist in the world. So the more attention that I get some of its really good some of his bad today, I found I was like, holy shit. There's like 60 people concurrently on my website at one time. And then I looked and it was like, there's a whole message board of like, tons of people just bashing me. So I'm like, Okay, well, that kind of sucks. So things like that kind of suck. But it's like, those people aren't going to buy anything from me, and I'm going to be upset about it for today. Tomorrow, I'll find something else to be upset about or be happy about, I guess. because not everything in life is bad. But the learning thing is, for me, it's the keeping at things that I have launched. So typically, I'm like the consummate artists brain. So it's like, I launched something, and I don't like it. It's like I press publish. And then it's like, okay, I this is the worst thing ever. So I realized that if I can just kind of push past that a little bit and kind of keep at the things that I launch, they can do better. It's like with creative class I launched and it did fairly well. And then I kept at it, and then it did even better. And then I had better months than launch months, like six months after launching it because I stuck at it. So I think that's probably the biggest lesson for me this year is that it's not just enough to work at the pre launch and the validation and all of that and getting it out there and then letting it die a slow death because you're not paying attention to it. It's like, okay, that you can launch it, and then relaunch it and then relaunch it. And then I think I had like five or six launches of creative classes here. And I kind of kept at it. And it's kind of paid off for me because people like you keeps building they're like, Oh, yes, create a class. Yeah, creative class. I hear Paul talking about or other people talking about creative class again. So I think that, for me has been the biggest thing. It's the it's the keeping at things after they've been launched the first time.
Kathleen Shannon:So that's my question for you guys because you are a little bit more diversified. So just to be clear, Emily and I both have our businesses, so braid, creative and indicia typography and we have a couple of products and services with those things and then being bosses Big side project for us. That was enough for me. And in fact, my biggest failure in 2015, was agreeing to do a couple of projects that weren't aligned with my core purpose or my core values. And being kind of this personal branding and being who you are 100% of the time, I was starting to look to really become almost like a portfolio entrepreneur and do a few different things, get my hands in a couple different pies. And I ended up I think, disappointing myself and the people that I was working with on those projects, because I couldn't see them through. So and those were my really big failures for 2015. But what I really learned from it is that I have to be all in on a project in order to make it work. So being all in on braid, and being all in on being boss, even that almost makes me feel a little spread thin. So how do you guys keep from how do you balance kind of that being all in versus diversifying? Or do you kind of let them in launch and see what starts to stick and gain traction? Or how do you how do you manage that?
Paul Jarvis:For me, I'm all in for amounts of time. So like, if I'm doing like, there's, I'll go two or three months without doing anything with creative class. But then for two weeks, I'll be all in with creative class kind of thing. The only things that I'm all in consistently for is my newsletter, like, that's the one, I'm always gonna write in our elbow right now, I'm on a break, but when, whatever.
Unknown:But we're all in all the time,
Paul Jarvis:all in all the time except when I'm not all in. But yeah, so I'm all in for that. But then everything else, I'm all in for, like half a day here, or like two weeks straight here. And so I can kind of balance it out a bit and have a couple things, but never have more than like a handful of things on the go at any given time. Even with the podcast that Jason and I have, we're all in for a couple weeks to record 12 episodes, then we give that to our engineer that we don't even think about the podcast for like six months, eight months kind of thing. So I go all in and hyper focus and then move on to something else and then move on to something else.
Jason Zook:Yeah, I'm kind of the same way. I mean, I think the the only difference for me is that, I know that I'm very good at structuring my time. So and because I'm kind of juggling a couple more things than most people would, I kind of have to say, when I'm feeling like I'm in the zone on this project. Even if I had other things scheduled, I have to move them. And so instead of just saying like, let me stay focused, and let me get this thing done. I actually take the time to say, Well, let me block out other time that I you know, didn't have blocked out and like Google calendar is my saving grace will sunrise. But I wouldn't be able get anything done without that. Because I block off chunks of time for everything for going to the grocery store for taking breaks, for writing for working on projects. And then I move that time around, depending on how I'm feeling. You know, a lot of times I want to get my newsletter just like Paul written weeks in advance, but I just I start writing it, I can't sit down to get it done. And then my attention gets dragged to something else. But I make sure to replace that time somewhere else in advance so that I'm not just gonna go, Oh, well, like, you know, I'm not gonna do that anymore. Because I didn't want to do it. It's like, No, I have to force myself to get it done at this certain time. And blacking out of my calendar does that for me. So I think just being really conscious, again, like Paul was saying of, like, Listen to yourself, you know, don't force yourself to sit down and just work on something really hard. If you don't feel like it's gonna get done, right, because the last thing you want to do is put shit work out into the world. And you also don't want to shortchange yourself, your customers your brand, just because you had a deadline that was arbitrarily set by none other than you, you know, you kind of made that up as most of us especially entrepreneurs do. And then we stick to those things. And we forced ourselves to work when it's not the right time or not in the right headspace. Something else is going on in life, some other project is going on. So it's really about I think reevaluating how much time you're spending and where you're spending it.
Paul Jarvis:To things quickly, can you actually juggle Jason? Because you said juggling if you tariff careful, I'm sorry, I'm gonna lie or be the type of person who could juggle no circus
Jason Zook:circus tricks here. I'm sorry, I can do a handstand. Does that
Paul Jarvis:count? And you have actually done a handstand at a toss? Or no, that was a cartwheel? Yes. All right. I know your life. So the second thing that I think is really important, which I should have brought up two, which Jason did bring up is the buffering, so not having it. Cuz as creatives I think we need space to be able to create. So the fact that Jason and I write our newsletters week, sometimes a month in advance. We don't feel like if I had a deadline, like if I had to write my newsletter for Sunday on Saturday, it would be the shittiest newsletter if it even got out. But the fact that I write it two weeks in advance three weeks in advance four weeks in advance, I know that if it's not working right now, go do something Else I can come back to it, I'm still not screwed if it doesn't get done at this specific moment. And I think that is probably the biggest thing for me is the fact that I, if I, the more that I buffer, the commitments that I have, the easier it is for those to get done with ease. Instead of just like, under the gun, holy shit, this has to get done. If it's good, bad, doesn't matter, it has to get done.
Kathleen Shannon:So the thing I'm noticing here is that, um, you guys are really self motivated to get things done not under a tight time crunch. And I find that a lot of creatives, myself included, it's us that takes the deadline to really get stuff done. So I think that that's interesting. So I'm actually going to take this again into my 2016 resolutions be more like Paul and Jason, and be a little bit more self motivated to get things done without a really tight deadline on my head. So, Emily,
Emily Thompson:I think I'm like the exact opposite of that, too. Like, I write my newsletter, the morning that it goes. Every week, and um, and like, I don't know, whenever Kathleen and I are launching things like I'll pull a deadline up two weeks more than a normal person probably would. Just because I know if I have a tight deadline, it's gonna get done. So um, that's funny, maybe
Paul Jarvis:I think it's funny. Like you had to figure you two had to figure that out, right? Like with the way that you work?
Emily Thompson:Oh, yeah. I'm trying to sit down and write a newsletter ahead of time. It's not coming out of me. Like I've certainly discovered in trying to plan better and to like, get these things done better, that, that if I try to write it ahead of time, it's just unless it's some sort of crazy divine intervention, it's not happening. But if I can wake up the morning of bright and early, sit down at my desk, write a badass newsletter. It's going to be on point.
Kathleen Shannon:I'm so excited about writing it that you want to hit Publish right away.
Emily Thompson:Yes,
Kathleen Shannon:that's how I feel about my newsletters. But I'm not as consistent as Paul Jarvis is with his newsletter. So 2016
Paul Jarvis:we all have to find what works for us. So like, you guys, you guys get shit done. And you're the total opposite. So I think it's not a matter of like, Oh, I have to do what Paul Jarvis said,
Unknown:No, I do have to do it, Paul.
Paul Jarvis:I'll make t shirts, they'll send them out
Kathleen Shannon:what with Paul Jarvis?
Jason Zook:Well, I think the the writing thing is interesting, though, because I was never a writer before two years ago. And it was always so hard for me to sit down and write anything. I mean, I really felt like I'm forcing myself to stare at my keys and my laptop blink cursor syndrome, like just blinking cursor syndrome. And I just couldn't get anything done. And through the process, and I wrote about this, of writing basically, like a million words in two years, that in itself gave me the habits, it gave me the permission to not put so much pressure on my writing. And that now I write so much stuff, that it just, I just, it comes out of me now I sit down, and I can just start writing about anything, if anybody gives me a topic at all, I can turn out 1500 to 2000 words in an hour without any problem whatsoever. But it's taken a year, it's taken a lot of work, it's taken a lot of throwing away of the writing, that wasn't any good. And I'd say 90% of my writing is maybe 95% of my writing is crap. So I might say 99% of writing is crap. But I do enough of it, that 1% of it, or 2%, or 5% is actually really good stuff. And that's all you need. You don't need all of it to be perfect. You don't need all of it to be great. And I think that's another thing that as entrepreneurs, as creatives, we put so much pressure on ourselves for like one thing to be amazing, or our next thing to be the best thing that we've ever done. That's not important. It's just important that it meets whatever value you have for whatever that thing is that you're trying to do. And then you move forward, and you let go of it. And you move on to the next thing and you don't think about the pressure. And so I think just like habits, you know, doing more iteration, Emily, like you were saying, if you've tried to do things weeks in advance, that doesn't work great. At least you're testing and iterating you're finding a process that works for you. Most people don't even do that. They just sit down and try it once and then they give up and then they're like I can't write? Well, no, you just can't write in the way that you tried that one time, try 10 other ways to write, see which one fits for you then keep doing that.
Kathleen Shannon:What I found, and I've done this myself is I see I see this, especially with fine artists and writers. They talk about how much they want to write and how much they want to create fine art. And they're talking about it and talking about it and talking about it and never actually doing it. So if you took some of the time that you're like talking about creating and some of that anxiety and that energy and put into actually doing, you get some stuff done so for me, the battle is really just showing up and I've just started writing in my personal blog again. And I'm really excited to do that, that I've, my my writing muscle has atrophied whenever it comes to personal writing. And so I'm kind of having to exercise that again. So we should do a whole episode on just writing because I think it's something that is so valuable for all creatives. Even if you're not technically a writer. It's just a great exercise in kind of figuring out who you are and who you want to be.
Emily Thompson:One of the characteristics of a boss
Unknown:is that you get paid to do what you love.
Emily Thompson:And if you're in the business of having clients pay you for meetings, whether you're a coach or service provider, or just don't want to have another free consultation
Unknown:for a potential client,
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Kathleen Shannon:Is there anything else that you guys want to say about 2015 wrapping it up going into 2016?
Paul Jarvis:I can't think of anything else. Paul, I
Jason Zook:would say the only thing maybe we could bring up is finish your damn book. Because I think that's a great illustration of we kind of thought that project was dead in the water. And then Yeah, true.
Paul Jarvis:Yeah. So Jason, I launched a course called finish your damn book. I'm just gonna take the reins from you right now. Yeah. I think you're muted anyways, though, whatever. But yeah, so we created a course finish your damn book to help people get to the end of writing a book, which is the best part. And we launched it and it didn't do super well. Like we sold some not a ton of courses. Jason's gone. Now he doesn't even want to talk about this. I'm sure he'll join again. There he is. But so yeah, we created a course called finish your damn book. And we launched it to our audiences didn't do super well. So we were like, Okay, what can we do with this course, because we felt like this is a good course, it just, it didn't work out for our audience in the way that we launched it. So we pitched it to a few of our friends that run things like app Sumo and a few sites like that. And then we put the course on there. And then it just went like nuts. And it did as well as some of our good lunches. And this was a product that we thought was dead in the water, we pulled out all of the tricks that we knew to get a course out there didn't work. So we just tried something different. And then it did work. And if we just kind of left it at that if we left it at, well, this course we launched it to our audience, and it didn't do really good, then maybe we'll just leave it at that that we wouldn't have made the money that we made, we wouldn't have like the hundreds and hundreds even know how many students are in the course there's like, maybe 1000, maybe 2000 students in the course now like it's just ridiculous how many people have signed up for this course. And if we hadn't tried different things, because I think a lot of creators put all of this work into making something, then they try to launch it one time. And they'll spend like 100 hours making something and then they'll send out one email in one tweet or one Facebook if you're into that. And then if it doesn't work out, then like, well, I tried. It's like, No, you didn't try. You did one thing, it one instance in time, and it didn't work out. Maybe spend as much time as you spent creating it, trying to get it out there and try to do something with it. And we Yeah, we definitely that was a good point. Jason, we definitely learned that this year is that if something doesn't work the first time you can try to launch it in a different way to different audience or partner with other people to try to get it out there and then maybe it will work really, really well.
Kathleen Shannon:I have a metaphor that I want to share. So I started boxing, I've been boxing since April. And I suck at boxing. Like I'm terrible at it, but I'm proud of myself for just showing up every single day. Right. And so I've started sparring and the coaches have noticed that I suck at boxing, but I have really long arms. So what they told me to do is to kind of stand I'm trying not to back away from my mic to show you guys. Hi bugs. Anyway, um, so. So anyway, he told me to stand further away. From my opponent because I have long arms and just to jab at them since you really just annoy the shit out of my opponent by Jab, Jab, Jab, Jab, Jab, and just wear them out. And so I think that's kind of how, how launching and continued promote is and now that I'm saying this, I'm like, Oh my god, Gary Vaynerchuk has book Jab, Jab, Jab, cross. Right Hook kind of right. Oh, sorry, right. So this is not a new metaphor, but, um, but it makes sense here.
Paul Jarvis:So that's it. I think you could take Gary Vee just FYI. Like maybe 2016 bucks, Gary Vee, and you just crush him.
Kathleen Shannon:Jerry, are you ready?
Emily Thompson:I'm down for that. I'll be front row. I love how also though, you guys are saying that one of the things, you know, that really kind of sucked for you guys was this this course launch. But it ended up being something that was really fantastic. And I feel like a lot of times, like, especially creatives who put all of their like soul and emotions and all the things into the work that they're doing, whenever they get that first, like, thumbs down. And however the universe gives it to them, they're done. And how, you know, if you take your ego out of it and just do a bit more work, sometimes that's all that needs to be done to make something that would be dumb down into two thumbs.
Paul Jarvis:I've actually got a review, that was just the emoji thumbs down. Which I thought was the best I kind of wanted to print that email out, just like stick it up on the wall. It is
Emily Thompson:it's pretty funny. as some people, no words.
Kathleen Shannon:Can we talk about haters for a second?
Unknown:Sure.
Kathleen Shannon:I mean, Paul, I've seen you write about haters. And then today, you mentioned it, like getting some attention from an online forum. And the same thing has happened to me. Actually, one of the first things I got a ton of traffic, I was like, Whoa, and then I noticed it was from a very toxic website, where there was an entire forum dedicated to hating me. So it really super hurt my feelings. And but I saw a bumper sticker on a truck the other day that said, Have you ever met a hater doing better than you? Right? Not so much. Not so much thumbs down?
Paul Jarvis:Yes, exactly. And I think that's just the the way that the world in the internet works is that people can't it's like what Bernie Brown says it's like the person in the ring is the only the person that actually gets in the ring is the only person that fucking matters, all the other people that just sit in the stands. If they're gonna criticize, then, yeah, yeah, we'll browse a bit more eloquent than
Kathleen Shannon:but uh, you know, it's interesting, because when it comes to the critics, it's hard to know when to stick up for yourself, when to ignore it, when to actually take some of the criticism to heart. It's just a complicated thing. And maybe there should be a whole topic on haters, though. I don't want to give haters that much attention. I think it's just, it's interesting. It's,
Emily Thompson:I still think it's something that needs to be discussed. And not even in terms of like giving the haters any sort of space. But just helping people who have a harder time dealing with it than we do. Because I feel like I mean, we've been in this enough and Catholic thing about the first two, I remember the first time that you that that happened to you, I remember talking to you after that event, and like you were so heartbroken and pissed off. And like, I don't know, I think we can be the people who can help talk people off the ledge, in a sense, from you know, quitting their creative endeavor, whatever, because some assholes decide to say some shit, that doesn't matter, then then high five, I'm fine with doing that.
Kathleen Shannon:But you know, what's even worse, too, is I think, the inner critic. And so I knew that haters get to me the most whenever it's something I've thought about myself. And then they just kind of like jab the wound a little bit more. And I'm like, ah, are they validating my worst thought about myself? Is this true? And so that's also what I would like to touch on whenever it comes to haters, because I know the inner critic doesn't have a place where it comes to being creative. And so again, back to goals for 2016 is to just create without drama
Emily Thompson:from inside or outside.
Unknown:Agreed,
Emily Thompson:I like that one. I may adopt in a way I think I think one of the things that I want to focus on this year is balance. So like I love the for me this year has been One about solidifying my business both in D, as well as like creating being boss into something that, you know, is something that I see myself doing for a long time, but also building a life that I've kind of been ignoring, because I've been too busy growing businesses. So for me, it's balancing life and work, which is something we talk about a lot, but also balancing the work that I do splitting my time between India and being boss and going where my energy needs me to go. And just being mindful of all of that, I know that like entrepreneurs in general struggle with balance endlessly, like most of the emails in my inbox that are replies to like, questionnaires and things, it's balance, it's balancing life and work. That is such a huge struggle. So I think for me, it's it's balance. And one of those things I think, is balancing, like, what I read about myself online. And being okay, with not reading those things. I don't know, I think that's one of the things that I want to focus on is all around Life and Work balance.
Kathleen Shannon:One of the things that I had written down in my notes was this concept of narrowing in and expanding out. And it is kind of like the ocean, right? And that tides and you have big waves, and you're calm waves, and you're completely still ocean sometimes. So I kind of like to think of balance in that way a little bit, that there, there are times to expand and there are times to contract. And for me, I always want to just be expanding and going and doing and making but there is a certain amount of validity to be said for that kind of contrasting in. So I guess that's what I would like to find balance around is like finding that rhythm I guess.
Paul Jarvis:That's why I forced myself to kind of go off the grid for November and December, because I would just do that I would just be Go go go. But so if I'm taking a break from social take a break from writing newsletters, not doing it and interviews, although I guess they're doing this, but I said that I would do this, but this is this is like it for two months. Whereas typically, it's like an interview every day or an interview every other day. So I forced myself to, like get to that contraction, because it's important, I think. And if I didn't like schedule it, it wouldn't happen. Just like Jason scheduling, going to the grocery store. It's like sometimes you need to schedule the things. You don't need to you don't think you need to schedule. Because a lot of these things are important. It's just not like a call with somebody else. If you make yourself important, then you can put yourself in your calendar and then not feel guilty that you're putting yourself in your calendar for doing things like taking a break or getting groceries or going for a walk or that sort of thing.
Kathleen Shannon:You forget you're missing out. Take a break.
Paul Jarvis:No, I was so happy like the whatever day that I stopped socialize like, this is the best ever as like, I don't even know if and then I always get that feeling. And Jason, I've talked about this on our podcast a lot. I think we did like a couple episodes on social media and sabbaticals. It's like, when I'm not online on social media, it's like I never want to come back. And then it's like, oh, I kind of said I would I guess my businesses maybe helped because I'm on social media? I don't think it is, but maybe it is. So I don't know. No, I was like, I guess last Wednesday was the day that I stopped going on Twitter for a couple months. I was like, this is the best? Yeah, I
Jason Zook:think I don't know, balance, for me is such an interesting thing. Because there's just, we're so connected, right? Like everything is so connected like our especially as creative and entrepreneurial people. You feel like you need every social account, you feel like you need to be sending a newsletter every week, you feel like you need to be doing every interview can. And I think there's a time and a place for some of that when you're getting started. You know, I think that's the one thing that I've heard from a lot of people who reply to a lot of my newsletters is, well, it's easy for you because you are who you are. You're where you are now. And like Yeah, but I also had years where I struggled. I had you know, it's like the classic like overnight success. Like it only took me 20 years to become an overnight success, whatever. It's really interesting for me to listen to people complain about these things, but not be willing to make sacrifices, not be willing to sacrifice. You're watching TV or getting off of Twitter and seeing what happens or Facebook more. So Facebook, I think people are just like ridiculously addicted to Facebook, and people aren't willing to make those sacrifices, then you don't deserve the results. And I think that that's the big thing that I've realized is that I deserve the results because I'm always willing to make the sacrifices for the balance in my life for the success that I have for, you know, the not having I don't miss out on anything like, you know, it's like, I think the only thing truthfully and honestly, the only thing that I have fear of missing out on is my Instagram feed. And it's only because it's such a positive place for me. There's never any political rants. No one's ever said. Post like terrible photos of awful things. It's Paul's owl that's in his backyard. It's Kathleen's amazing hair, you know, it's like, it's all these things that I really enjoy looking at, like I truthfully, so maybe I do have fear of missing out on that. I'll get over it right, I can always go back and look at those photos later on in life. But it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, because I've kind of aligned everything else in my life to work.
Emily Thompson:I want to know, or how do we want to do this, Kathleen? Do we want to go a goal or a mantra?
Kathleen Shannon:Let's do a mantra, since already decided that the word thing values is a good thing to chase. And,
Emily Thompson:sure, so mine, I've decided as balance, I'm going to go for balance and work in life and what I'm working on and what I'm doing in my life and all the things in between. I think 2016 for me is the year of balance. Who is next?
Kathleen Shannon:I'll go mine is Wabi Sabi. Nothing lasts, nothing is finished. Nothing is permanent. and applying that to how I create and how I live. And yeah, I'm just excited to enjoy the process of Wabi Sabi my way through it.
Unknown:High five,
Emily Thompson:I'm glad that Wabi Sabi your way through it with you.
Jason Zook:I'm gonna go with wasabi. So 2016 is a year of just eating things. I'm sure people, people listening at home or like someone gonna do this, like waiting for it? Yeah, I don't know, even even doing this, you know, this chat with you guys. For the past hour ish. There's nothing that immediately jumps to mind. But the one thing that I have said that I want to do more, is to give back more. And, you know, I think I give a lot in just the replying to emails and trying to help people and the articles and all that stuff. But that's not like a tangible thing that makes an impact. And you know, like Paul, and I, with every project that we do, we donate five to 10% of the income to this rat rescue that's in Ottawa. And I think I just would like to do more. My girlfriend, Karolina and I have talked about doing like, 20% of our income to be donated to organizations where it can actually make an impact, you know, like donating that to Red Cross. Okay, I'm glad to help out with these big disasters, but I actually want to, like, see a tangible impact with my dollars, because I don't make enough that I can, like, you know, Bill Gates, somebody. It's much smaller than that. And but I would like to help the people who a couple 1000 bucks here and there can make such an incredible impact. So maybe the year of 2016 is the year of giving back for me for the first time. In a like, I'm focused on it, you know, like, I'm really setting the goal of who there's a goal Oh, Paul, is that, you know, 20% of my income for the year of 2016, I'm going to try and give back. And that doesn't need to be public water, where it goes or whatever, it's more for me and for you know, our family and what we do. But yeah, I think that would be something that I'm, I want to do more of, and it does scare me to do that. Because it's 20% of my income. That's a good amount of money. But I think that it could do more for other people than it could for me. And that's something that a lot of us don't think about not saying us on this thing, but just in general, as a society. I'm looping everybody in on that one.
Kathleen Shannon:Oh, I think that okay, two points on giving back one budgeted in, like put it in your mint. So that's something that my husband and I do we have kind of our giving back fund. So if it's low for the month, and we haven't fulfilled that, like we know that we have X amount of dollars to give back to and is I'm pretty sure it was Jessica hische did a project that was something around like 52 weeks of giving, and it's every week a different charity that she's kind of giving to you. So I had to look into that if I can find it, I'll include it in the show notes, but I thought it was really fascinating. I like the idea of diversifying my giving back. Though right now, I want to give everything I have planned parenthood for 2016 just because they need as much help and support as they can get. Anyway, so giving back and I love that.
Emily Thompson:Yeah, giving back is huge whenever whenever we built toolkits like in in the idea of structuring a way to do it whenever in these epigraphy launch toolkits. We structured that into like the price of it is that 25% of all toolkits, subscriptions go to go to nonprofits, and and we've done tons of research on smaller organizations where it counts so if we need to chat it out, let me know.
Jason Zook:Cool, thank you. All right, Paul, you're on the hot seat.
Paul Jarvis:Shit. I think for me, it's just more of the it's like it has to be a Fuck yes or hell no. And I feel like I got really really good at that with doing client work with people and then I move more into products and a psycho products are new. I can't and it's this thing. This this like this bad word of opportunity it's like this could be an opportunity oh man maybe i should say yes to this and it's like
Unknown:yeah iphone magazine says fomo fomo mu wait why what's fomo
Jason Zook:fear of missing out on opportunities many
Paul Jarvis:oh god yeah yeah so i just need to focus more on the things that i wouldn't 100% want to do and just like opportunity there other opportunities are gonna come up or everything that i've ever thought in my entire life is going to be like this make or break opportunity has been has done absolutely nothing for me so i think i just need to keep reminding myself of that moving forward in the direction that i want to go is that there isn't just one opportunity if that was everybody's life then it would suck it's opportunities there's like compounded a gazillion little things that can happen to build up to something good it's not just like oh one thing changed it's like oprah doesn't even have a tv show anymore so it's not like going on oprah not like that would be my goal anyways
Kathleen Shannon:yeah she has an entire network now
Paul Jarvis:yeah so like i yeah if it didn't make sense if oprah was like hey paul you want to come on so sunday she's a podcast yeah it'd be like i don't know because i would need to see first if that would that that would be something that i want to do and not just for the opportunity but for something more it can't just be the opportunity it has to be more than that opportunity so
Kathleen Shannon:i'm martha beck who is a life coach like she's the life coach ball like coaches she's amazing and i did my training through her she's getting this game right now called integrity cleanse and it is kind of that whole no or yes but how do you get to the place where you kind of know how to listen to those feelings it's kind of like being a little listen to your body but if your body's telling you to eat cupcakes and wine like your body is deceiving you so i'm not but i
Paul Jarvis:wait is there a problem with
Unknown:backup
Kathleen Shannon:you know so anyway she actually use oprah as an example a friend of mine just went out who's going to do the training went out to this big market that meet and greet and martha beck was saying yeah i had an opportunity to go to one of oprah's parties this weekend and i had to ask myself do i really want to do it and she and oprah are friends they like each other but she didn't want to go like she don't want to get on the plane she didn't feel like socializing so she said no and not many people say no to oprah or maybe they do i don't know so it is this idea of like integrity cleansing and i was so inspired by that story too so i'm with you paul i want to be able to kind of really be able to identify the fuck yeses so speaking of a funk yes i want to briefly touch on the fact that the four of us are going to be collaborating on a project i guess we might be talking about it more on a very special invisible office our podcast episode now you guys are committed
Unknown:legally bind
Kathleen Shannon:but stay tuned because we are planning that out as we speak i don't know how much really i should share it's going to be around the topic of podcasting we know that for sure so stay tuned and join all of our newsletters to stay tuned on what is going to happen there and we'll be sure to keep you guys updated but i think we're all pretty excited i know i am so
Paul Jarvis:we're gonna travel the name for that was an instant like it is an opportunity to work with the boss ladies obviously but it's more than that like i honestly i want to do a project with you guys and i think it would be something that would be super valuable to all of our audiences so that was the more than just the opportunity of doing something with the boss ladies it's like boss ladies
Kathleen Shannon:wow so i'm super excited about today because i think it's a project where i'm going to be overly focused on the process more than the outcome like i'm not worried about making a ton of money off of it i'm not worried about hitting a certain amount of numbers i'm just really excited about working with you guys on a project so i think it's going to be awesome anyway let's wrap this gig up is as everyone said their piece for 2015 and 2016
Emily Thompson:so happy new years guys and paul happy new year
Kathleen Shannon:for you fighting words right until next time bye y'all thank you for listening to being boss fight Show Notes for this episode at love being boss calm. Listen to past episodes and subscribe to new episodes on our website on iTunes, SoundCloud or Stitcher.
Emily Thompson:Did you like this episode? Head on over to our Facebook group by searching being boss on facebook and join in on the conversation with other bosses are share it with their friends. Do the work. Be boss? I will see you next week.
Kathleen Shannon:We have a little team building exercise for our sound engineer. Do you guys remember this? Okay, so here's what we do. It's like doing the shgs for podcasters. So I'm going to say one. Emily's going to say to Jason's gonna save three. Paul is going to say four. And we're going to keep going around in a circle. We usually go to seven but I think with four people we should go to 12
Unknown:All right, 1-234-567-8910 1112 13. How is it three, seven?
Jason Zook:That doesn't make sense in my brain.
Kathleen Shannon:Sorry, Cory. You just you're gonna get what you get. Yeah,
Emily Thompson:this is gonna have so many bloopers that can only imagine.
Unknown:I don't think so.
Kathleen Shannon:All right. So, Emily, I have an agenda in our Evernote.
Jason Zook:Oh, I have an agenda in my mind for you.
Paul Jarvis:I'm reading it right now.
Unknown:Good.
Kathleen Shannon:Alright, so Emily, I just want to go into it. I was inspired, of course by Paul and Jason, and their podcast. And then I was actually listening to our podcast and it takes like five minutes. It's so really well
Emily Thompson:done, basically, that we weed out the non believers.
Jason Zook:That's a good that sounds like you're doing it right.
Emily Thompson:Yep.