#54 - Managing Clients

Today we're jamming on client relationships for creative entrepreneurs – everything from firing a client from hell to keeping the dream clients well … dreamy. This episode is going to be great for any of you service-based creatives who rely on clients for a paycheck, and for any creative entrepreneurs who are struggling with defining their process, laying out their contracts, and creating expectations.

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Emily Thompson: 0:05

Hello, and welcome to being boss number 54. Brought to you by fresh books

Unknown: 0:10

cloud accounting. All right, you

Kathleen Shannon: 0:13

guys, Emily and I have just wrapped up a ton of client work to close out all things client, so client relationships, everything from firing and client from hell to keeping the dream clients well, dreamy. So this episode is going to be great for any of you service based leaders who rely on clients for

Emily Thompson: 0:36

a paycheck. Also, I think it's gonna be really great for all the people who want to be great clients. Right?

Unknown: 0:49

Get your business together, get yourself into what you do, and see it through.

Emily Thompson: 0:54

Being bosses hard. Winning work in life is messy. Making a dream job of your own

Kathleen Shannon: 0:59

isn't easy, but getting paid for it, becoming known for it. And finding purpose in it is so doable. If you do the work, being bosses, a podcast for creative entrepreneurs, brought to you by Emily Thompson and Kathleen Shannon. Check out our archives at love being boss calm. Okay, you guys. First off, it's that time of year again, where it is time to get your receipts together. So one of the things that I love about fresh books, Emily's give me a big thumbs down right there. But really, one of the reasons why I love using fresh books is because they make expenses and tracking expenses. So, so easy. Everything from whenever you enter your expenses, it automatically puts it into tax friendly categories. You can sync up fresh books with your bank account now. So if you use a debit or credit card, it will automatically import your expenses from your bank account so you're not missing a dime. freshbooks is easy to use online cloud accounting system designed specifically for creative entrepreneurs who did not major in financing. They're there to help you run your business and make you look like a total pro while doing it. Try fresh books for free today go to freshbooks.com slash being boss. It's like being boss in the How did you hear about us section? Alright, so today is all about clients. I'm so excited to talk about this one because I feel like it's a topic that I talked about a lot whenever I first started freelancing and working for myself. But now I kind of take it for granted. That said, my main designer list has been on maternity leave for the past eight weeks, I've been doing a lot more client work that typically she takes on so it's given me a whole fresh perspective on client work.

Emily Thompson: 2:51

Welcome back to it, Katherine,

Unknown: 2:53

welcome back.

Kathleen Shannon: 2:54

And you know, and I love it. I love my clients, it has been so fun being able to work on their branding projects and taking them through the braid method. It really is dreamy. But it's not always dreamy.

Unknown: 3:11

No, I

Kathleen Shannon: 3:11

can go south fast.

Emily Thompson: 3:13

I know. And I'm gonna. So if we're recording this mid December, you're totally going to get transparent on this. And Kathleen and I are both This is our last day of doing client work for the year. So like, we're really just like coming to an end of all the client projects we've been working on all year. And I'll have to tell you, I'm going to have to try really hard not to just spiral into bitch fest today. Because this is always the hardest part of the year for us wrapping up. But like I like to wrap up all of my client projects before the end of the year. And we've had, I've had a couple snack foods that have made it clear that I think my time of working one on one with clients is coming to an end. It's It's bittersweet because I have certainly met some of the most amazing people and absolutely enjoy doing one on work with some really awesome bosses. But doing client work is really hard. Like it's really super draining working one on one with clients. And there's a reason why after a couple years and in business, most of us stop doing one on one work. I mean, it really keeps us from being able to move forward and a lot of ways. But

Kathleen Shannon: 4:30

I also I want to jump in though and mention that I think part of why it's draining is because you're getting so much client work. You're doing websites, which is a whole other ball of wax, like maybe you're doing someone's website, you're basically doing their business, which is why you launched in the boom. But you have also grown your team in the past couple of years. So you're not just managing clients, you're managing a team and it's really hard to do both and you're doing all this, what we've been calling one to many outreach where you've got the power podcasts, you've got the newsletter, you you're just doing a lot of stuff like you're probably spread thin.

Emily Thompson: 5:05

Oh, well, I am. And I also have to like have to say that having the team has been has made a world of a difference. I mean this time last year I was frazzled and like, Oh, I can't even Actually, I remember being on a coaching call with Brooke Castillo, which we interviewed months ago. And like she was doing some like one on one quickfire coaching with some people that were in a group that I was in, and I got on and I was like, I'm about done. I was like, I have like four sites to launch in the next two weeks so that I can enjoy my Christmas holiday, like, talk me off the cliff.

Unknown: 5:46

What did she say?

Emily Thompson: 5:48

Well, she pretty much told me she was like, Well, are you actually going to not be able to enjoy your holidays if you don't launch these projects? And I was like, Well, no. And she was like, right. So it's just one of those things where she just, I don't know, perspective. I know exactly, exactly, which is exactly what I needed. And but between talking to her and experiencing last year, especially because it was our first year of indie booms. And again, it's really important for me to launch all one on one projects, by the end of the year, just so like, I can close the books on those things and get fresh in the new year. It really made it important for me to prep my team this year to take that load off of me, which they have, they say you will still be taking clients, you're just not as hands on with them. Exactly, exactly. So so I am much less spread then this year than I was last year hugely. But even then, like working one on working one on one with clients is is a draining experience, you are one on one giving a client all you've got. And if you have more than one client at a time, and most of us do, unless we have a client who's like paying all of our bills, which is rare, then then you're giving lots of people all you've got at any given time and then compound that with holidays, or like tax season. You're right. It's like we're whenever this launches is to be right in the middle of it. And if you are gathering your own receipts, God bless you. I'm glad I have David for that. But um, but working one on one club with clients is can be really draining work. And one of the things that we have found and one things you want to talk about today is how to manage clients. Because managing your clients is what can be the difference between super frazzled, you hate your job, and having really dreamy experiences, even with not dreamy clients, management makes all the difference in the world. Yeah,

Kathleen Shannon: 7:45

I mean, I feel like whenever I first started working for myself, my goal was to become best friends with all of my clients. And that's not the case anymore, right? I'm not that I don't want to get along. But I've always been really turned off by that funny website clients from hell. I mean,

Unknown: 8:01

don't get me wrong. Websites

Kathleen Shannon: 8:04

I use is so true. But But I think that the idea of, I think that there's something that happens in a creative industry, and I saw it a lot whenever I was working in advertising, where you walk into a meeting and your client already hates you, it's like, for some reason, you're the enemy. And I swore that that would not happen. Whenever I work for myself, my client will not be my enemy. Even if we're not best friends, you're not going to be my enemy. And I just don't want there to be any defensiveness or questioning in motives whenever it comes to how I work with my clients. And I feel like it really begins from knowing yourself first. So knowing your own positioning your own expertise and your own offering, you have to know what it is that you do so that you can tell clients whether or not they're dreaming or not, that you can do it. So one thing that I see happen a lot with creatives is a client will come to them and they'll say, hey, um, I want to hire you. I really like everything that you're putting out there, I want to hire you. And then you say, Okay, well, what do you need? And they're like, I don't know.

Unknown: 9:12

And then the creative,

Kathleen Shannon: 9:14

I just start with coffee. And the creatives like, well, I can do anything I can do, I can do anything you want. Because a lot of creatives can do a lot of stuff. But that doesn't mean that you should and it doesn't mean that you should take on every client that has cash, or and especially you don't take on every client that doesn't have cash. So I really do think it is about knowing your own positioning, knowing your own expertise and knowing what it is that you offer is the first step in having a really good client relationships.

Emily Thompson: 9:43

I agree. And I think the next step in that is knowing how it is that you're going to offer what you offer. So one of the things that I am, my team gets entertained by me and how it is that that i i have to superstructure how i manage clients and how i manage projects because website projects are huge like they are absolutely huge there are tons of moving parts and i have to know how it is that i do what i do to a tee or else is going to derail and be a nightmare so for me one of the one of the key points of managing a client is knowing what that means so you know if you're working one on one with them do they have your cell phone number or are you communicating only via email or are using project management software and if so for what so knowing what

Kathleen Shannon: 10:39

to say like even before that like let's talk process like so i knowing your own process so you have the nb boom process where you can tell your clients okay first we do this then we do this then we'll be here then you'll pay me here and then we'll do this right

Emily Thompson: 10:55

so it's very organized and reassuring and it is how you deliver what you do and the same thing with braid creative we have our braid method so our clients know before they ever hire us that we're going to have three meetings and two coaching sessions and this is what you'll get it's very clearly outlined when these things are going to happen exactly which for me one of the one of the there are two key points i think whenever it comes to managing clients one of them is set expectations so whether it's what it is that you're going to do or how it is that you're going to do what being your process or how it is you're going to do it in terms of like the finite like who's doing what and when and how are you communicating about it setting expectations and not going into projects where you're like okay let's do it even like high five and then run into a brick wall

Kathleen Shannon: 11:48

okay but before we even that part before setting expectations i still want to talk a little bit about positioning yourself so that you're attracting dream clients and i think another way to do that is to show only your best work and only the work that you want more of i see too many creatives populating their portfolios with half assed projects just because it's something i would rather see one of your very best than 10 of your mediocre and so show only your best work and the work that you want more of

Emily Thompson: 12:21

right well and like on the flip side of that if you are looking for someone to work with look at their portfolio

Kathleen Shannon: 12:29

okay i have to say i just hired a contractor without looking at her portfolio

Emily Thompson: 12:34

i know that you did this but you also met her and knew her

Unknown: 12:38

i know and i loved her

Emily Thompson: 12:39

yes this that was a little bit of a different scenario don't get it uh

Kathleen Shannon: 12:42

yeah kathleen no no that's a good point because even our clients that hire us sometimes they'll come to us on referral and someone loved working with us and they'll tell their friend you have to work with braid and they will not have even looked at our website and so we in part of our before a client ever works with us whenever we're just emailing back and forth one of the things that we say in our email is take a minute to look at your to look at our website if you haven't already we explain a lot of how we work there you can also see samples of our portfolio work here with a link to our portfolio then we literally say if our style you know vibes with your style let's talk so one of the things that we're doing is self selecting out if if our style does not resonate don't hire us

Emily Thompson: 13:30

yeah i completely agree and for me that's also kind of always like almost red flag like if someone is just coming at you which and red flags let's talk about red flags

Unknown: 13:41

yeah i really want to talk about red flags so red

Emily Thompson: 13:44

i love that we call them red flags red flags are when you are talking to a potential client and it doesn't matter what you do whether you are a designer or a developer or a coach or you know it doesn't matter a red flag is when you're talking to a client and then something doesn't seem quite right so either they don't know your name or they haven't looked at your portfolio or they don't care about your portfolio or they all they immediately start talking about how they don't have a budget

Kathleen Shannon: 14:17

or i don't know what are some of your red flags my red flags or if it's a dude that's that's one of my i know this is awful but like if a guy emails me i'm instantly suspicious

Emily Thompson: 14:32

i completely agree so i've worked with a couple of men in my time and this is this is not to like i don't work with men thing because i definitely have some male clients and some of them are fantastic but most of my worst clients have been men because men's way with communicating especially with women is a little messed up

Kathleen Shannon: 14:56

and i mean we're just getting really honest here but i think that our brands attract a lot of women, including being boss. But we also attract guys, or people who are a little more gender fluid. Like,

Unknown: 15:06

you know, I've

Kathleen Shannon: 15:07

worked with a lot of people and on their branding, and I won't say that I don't work with guys because I do, but we're talking red flags and red flags are just warnings. They're not necessarily a make or break, they're not deal breakers, red flags and deal breakers are not the same.

Emily Thompson: 15:25

I've had red flags before that ended up being really great clients. So it's definitely it's definitely not a make or break thing. And but man is definitely one of mine, too. That's really funny that you said that. So

Kathleen Shannon: 15:37

yeah, so men is one of my red flags. But again, like I'd love for you guys. Anyway, um, contact another another red flag. Another red flag is we specifically like working with people who have personal brands, so solopreneurs, and that sort of thing. Um, so we have found that a red flag is someone who comes from the corporate world, they have a really hard time embracing their personal brand, because they always want to bend back into this, like corporate conditioning of being everything to everyone or being professional, I put that in air quotes. Um, so that's definitely a red flag. But then recently, I figured out over the last year, another red flag is solopreneurs, or creative entrepreneurs who service corporations. So even though they work for themselves, if their dream client is a corporation, that is also a red flag, because again, they're trying to conform to what that culture deems as professional. And so that's another red flag, another red flag is probably I mean, again, like the referrals, and we're definitely an industry based on referrals. It's great getting referrals, that's huge. But sometimes, just because someone else loves us doesn't mean that their best friend will. And there's something about going through the braid method process that makes our clients feel really heard. They're seen, they get a lot of confidence out of it. But you can't sell someone on confidence. So that's what they're trying to sell their friend. But that's not what we're trying to sell them. We're trying to sell them a brand and business vision. So if they don't need a brand and business vision, we're not a good fit. But sometimes they want to hire us anyway, because our friend loves us so much. So like that's kind of a red flag. And then other ones or maybe if someone emails us, and they give way too much background, or they have like 20 years worth of content under their belt, and it's just like a lot to dig into. Or another red flag is not having enough information. Like they might just email and say, how much does it cost?

Emily Thompson: 17:47

Right? So okay, one of mine is and I want to also specify these red flags, again, are not making break, and also are pretty specific to us. Like, obviously, you might not have the red flags. And just because you're in a group that we would red flag, it just means that you're not our dream customer. Not that you're not a fantastic person. But one of my red flags is people over 40

Unknown: 18:11

Oh,

Emily Thompson: 18:13

I know. Again, not that that is like a bad thing. But one of the things that I have discovered in the fact that I am that I work online with people and all of our conversations, except for coaching calls are going to be in project management software or in emails. If people are over really over about 50, they have a really hard time communicating via written format and need to get on the phone to get anything across. And we don't work that way.

Kathleen Shannon: 18:43

I think also, maybe that's a red flag for you. Okay, like my dad is almost 70. And he's very tech minded, like he wants to be in the world of Twitter. And I think that that's great, and Instagram and Facebook and all of that. But at the same time, it is a new world that it's hard to navigate. And it's something that I'm that I'm really trying to be compassionate about. Because I'm starting to get to an age I'm not old by any means. But when new technology is coming out, like I don't even know what Snapchat is or how to use it. And so then I imagine that's how my dad feels about everything. Like I'm curious about it, but I don't know how to use it. And it's intimidating. So I think that for for you being a web developer who is helping people build online businesses, we grew up on the internet, essentially. And for people that didn't grew up on the internet, there's not that same kind of shorthand that you really like having with your clients. So it's not necessarily just that you're over 40 I don't like you, but that there's this lack of shorthand so obviously again, red flag,

Unknown: 19:50

not a breaker. I

Emily Thompson: 19:52

just launched a couple of websites for really fantastic creative entrepreneurs over over 50 but it is one of those Whenever they first contacted us, it was something I had to wade the waters really well, like, how are they communicating in these first emails, which is a whole part of the of the client management process, you have to know how to feel people out. It's really, really important. So I know that if someone contacts me, and they they are older, then that's something where we're going to have some very careful conversations via email to begin, because if you can't communicate with me in a way that is going to be effective for me to get the job done, then I'm not going to be able to effectively get the job done. So just for us, red flags are how you very narrowly define who your dream customer is. And if people fall outside of that you simply Wade the waters a little more carefully, not mean, they won't be great clients, because I have really great men clients over 50, that has totally been a thing. But it is something where if you want to have dreamy engagements with your clients, know what your red flags are, and how to deal with them to correctly tell if they're going to be a dream client or not.

Kathleen Shannon: 21:09

Okay, so let's say someone gets through the whole process of like onboarding, and you do decide that they're a good fit, because their needs and wants and overall vibe aligns with your expertise and offering an overall vibe.

Unknown: 21:25

So

Kathleen Shannon: 21:26

then what like what are the next steps to guaranteeing a good client engagement. And for me, the next step is just, I mean, I guess the onboarding process in general, which exhausts me right now to think about getting into

Emily Thompson: 21:39

recording is where you set those expectations. I mean, we have like a getting started PDF, or we say, Alright, you know, we may have had a sales call with you. But outside of coaching calls, we're strictly doing email for like whatever communications and project management software for project specific communications, it's where we set that expectation of here's how we work, we have these systems in place. And if you want us to do our job for you, at the best way possible, you're going to follow our systems. And if you don't want to follow our systems, we can't guarantee that we can give you the best, the best product, for example, for example, we recently had a client and through through some mistakes made on our team side, the client ended up with one of our cell phone numbers. And so the client ended up texting content for a website, to Chris's cell phone. And I didn't have that kinda like it's my job to load the content, but because it's not being loaded into our project management software, and it's being sent to Chris's phone, instead, there was this little bit of a snafu, where what the hell is going on. And I had to reset expectations immediately sent her an email where I'm like, you know what, like, I understand this is probably easier for you. But it's not easier for us. And if you want us to do our job, you have to send us content in a way

Unknown: 23:03

and so is she just like typing out her website content or phone she was sending product photos,

Emily Thompson: 23:10

and like titles and descriptions and pricing,

Kathleen Shannon: 23:13

okay, I can't bash that. Because I'm, I'm a big fan, you

Emily Thompson: 23:16

are a user in that like, and this is again, where you sort you set your own expectations and boundaries, like I will not give a client my cell phone number, that is something that I will not do. I don't know me, I've done it a couple of times in the past and all but maybe once it has been abused. So like, for me that is like if a client asked for my cell phone number, red flag, really big red flag. So setting those expectations during the onboarding process, though, is one way that you begin the client management or no, that's how you continue the client management process. I also think that having the process for booking a client is how you like show that professionalism that you just continue carrying on through the onboarding process, where you set clear expectations and you absolutely stick to them. Like this is a client management thing. This is the parenting thing. You set expectations and it is your job as the parent relationship feel

Unknown: 24:14

like you're talking to me right now.

Emily Thompson: 24:17

I'm not but do you feel guilty Catholic?

Unknown: 24:21

Feeling judged right now?

Emily Thompson: 24:23

No, but maybe we should talk about that later. Um, but it's about setting expectations and sticking to them. And it's not even like, like, I'm kind of known for being the tough love Get your shit together person and it's because like, I create expectations and boundaries. And I absolutely expect the people that I set them for to follow along and if they don't, I will tell them and redirect immediately. And like having these really great processes how I keep that super professional relationship and manage client In a way that gets really big projects done.

Kathleen Shannon: 25:06

Hey, bosses Did you have a case of FOMO

Emily Thompson: 25:09

that stands for the fear of missing out when you

Unknown: 25:11

saw all the being boss magic go down for our being boss vacation in New Orleans, if you're

Emily Thompson: 25:17

not friends, because we are planning another boss vacation this spring in

Unknown: 25:22

Miami.

Kathleen Shannon: 25:25

So it was really hard to figure out what location to go to. But we've never been to Miami. And the reason why we do these boss vacations is to cultivate our creative pack, see different parts of the world, get some face time with each other, connect with each other and live the boss life. So to learn more details about this boss vacation, just go to love being boss, calm slash Miami.

Unknown: 25:49

We hope to see you there.

Kathleen Shannon: 25:56

Okay, so I have a tactic for our listeners right now, whenever it comes to your onboarding process. Because again, the idea of outlining our onboarding processes, I feel like we've done it before, like we both have these conversation slides that we attach to our emails that make our process very visual. We use canned responses in Gmail and have systems outlined in our, for me, it's in my Google Drive a system outline so that my virtual assistant can send emails set up meetings, and it's the same process every time. But what I would recommend for our listeners is if you want to create a really good onboarding, process or system, start to write down just on a piece of notebook paper, everything that you do from the time a client contacts you to signing a contract, like what are all the exchanges of conversations, emails, phone calls, just write down everything that you do, and start to figure out systems around each step or where you can consolidate steps, that is a really great way to create an onboarding process that is really authentic, and matches your own style. Because Emily, and I can tell you all day what we do, but it might not necessarily be the right process for you. So yes, do that. write it all down, figure it out. Yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about contracts and payments for a minute because I feel like contracts. So one thing that you know, we both do is attach that PDF to our emails. And it kind of sets the expectations in a very visual, friendly, casual way. But then there's also contracts, which is really the legally binding document that says here is what I'm doing for you, here is what you will get, here's how it works. So a lot of the information that is in my process email that's very friendly. And visual is repeated in my contract, again, in a very friendly way, I actually took all the legal jargon out of my contract except for the stuff that makes it possible for me to sue if I have to, or vice versa. And so that it's just very friendly so that people can actually read it and use that document to know when we're meeting exactly what they're getting. And so I want to talk a little bit about that contracts. If you don't have a contract, you need to have one.

Emily Thompson: 28:12

I agree. And I want to get back to this just second, I also want to go back to that onboarding process. If you are hiring someone who doesn't have a good onboarding process, you can pretty much guarantee that the rest of your project is going to go about the same way.

Kathleen Shannon: 28:28

And I would say like, that's not always the case. But what a good onboarding process does, it starts before they ever send you their first paycheck and a good onboarding process really reassures your client, and you can start charging a premium for your expertise, because you're being professional about it.

Emily Thompson: 28:46

Right?

Unknown: 28:46

Yeah. So really, it just makes you more professional, right.

Emily Thompson: 28:49

And people want to pay you more, and will take you more seriously. So back onboard and

Kathleen Shannon: 28:54

yeah, and they'll take you more seriously through the whole process, they'll trust you and feel more reassured through the whole process, they will be less likely to second guess you. So that's a really good point, Emily. And but contracts, I see too many people getting into business with acquaintances or friends, or even just other creatives that they really like, and not outlining a contract,

Emily Thompson: 29:17

I do a contract for everything. I don't care what it is, I don't care if it's free or for trade, or if you're my best friend or my sister. I've never worked with my sister. So that doesn't really count. But like there is a contract involved. I think that actually whenever you and I have worked together there we do contracts like if it's a big project

Kathleen Shannon: 29:37

Yeah, I feel like I'm now I feel like maybe what we did is sign one major contract at some point saying all in the boom braid projects follow these rules. Yeah, and I think now it's just when we exchange money it's I think that's how we did it.

Emily Thompson: 29:53

Oh, no, I want to say even now like with clients do it every time I do a contract for every thing

Kathleen Shannon: 30:00

Oh, it see. So I actually delegated my contract systems down to our virtual assistant. So I don't even know when we have contracts on any day, I

Emily Thompson: 30:07

think David's on them. So I don't really know either. I think that we still do

Kathleen Shannon: 30:12

whenever we did contracts, and we still do do them, but I'm outlining and it can be simple. You guys, like don't let contracts and all of that stuff overwhelm you, you can find templates online, just ask another creative friend to like, Hey, can I see what you typically include in your contract. And here's the deal about contracts too, is that you can never guess everything that's going to go wrong. So there are standard things that you can include, like cancellation fees, revision fees, if they don't pay what happens. But basically, what you want to do is think through every worst case scenario, and your contract should outline the exit strategy there. What do they owe you for what percentage amount of work is done? Like, that's my big thing. If I've already taken you through half my process, and you decide you don't want to work with me anymore, you're still paying me 50%. Or, you know, sometimes it's even more like, let's say, you front load your deliverable. And you just don't finish at the very end. But like your deliverable, you do all the work at the beginning, maybe, even though they've only spent 25% of their time with you, you're still charging them 75% for your work done. So just kind of figure out what that looks like along the way. And it's also never a bad idea to hire a lawyer to look over your contract. And that's something that just now five years, six years into business, I'm really starting to get more serious about, especially when it comes to intellectual property and trademarking and copywriting and all of that stuff. But for simple client contracts, basically outlining what are they getting, what are you doing, how much does it cost, and that's going to be really good for covering all bases.

Emily Thompson: 31:55

Agreed, um, you know, my first contract I got from like, I actually have a book over here, it's called business and legal forms for graphic designers. It's goes on and I went through, and I copied and pasted multiple parts of multiple contracts into a contract that I also that I combined with one that I got online, or something like that, like you can totally bootstrap a contract. We hired a lawyer to do a contract, and we launched in the boom, so because it was such a high price long engagement with our clients, we decided to get legit, and get a custom contract drawn up. And we still use that one for indie booms. And then we just sort of tweaked it for, for our one off website projects. And again, we do i do contracts for everything. And, and not even because I'm afraid something's going to happen, or I'm expecting it. But because of that, like professional level, like even if it's a free thing, that you are just, you know, working for trade with someone, having a contract will hold you both accountable to actually doing what you're saying you're going to do. And it'll make you look like the super professional that we know you want it to be. And again, like I love it, whenever people do really plain language, contracts, like I feel like that's so approachable, like so much more approachable, ours is not because it is such a big engagement that I don't care if it's approachable, you're signing my contract.

Unknown: 33:18

But you also want them to read it.

Emily Thompson: 33:19

Yes, yes. Okay. So even though it's a big one, like my contract isn't longer than two pages, like it's not like an 18 page document, where I'm asking for your first child is just, it's just like, it's just covering both of our asses in case something, something happens, or, you know, having an act of God clause, like if an earthquake happens, what happens or this is something I want to add to my contract. And Dave and I have talked about, we haven't added it yet. But I recently heard of a pause clause, which will allow either party to pause a project if say, one of the biggest pain points we have with websites is clients not getting as content in time to actually launch a website. So if a client isn't going to get us content, then either party can ask for a pause in the contract for however long with the understanding that whenever you're ready to come back, it's you know, with our schedule, and not just all willy nilly. But I think a pause clause is a really cool thing to add and something I want to add love chat.

Kathleen Shannon: 34:16

And I know right, I was going to say that I will I mean, I don't love that for me, I would never do a plus clause, I would kind of be like, what's going on? Because our well, because our method is not as long term engagement, right? So we're six to eight weeks. So if there's a pause, it's probably because something pretty dramatic happened either personally or professionally. But I do really love having a timeline built into how I manage my clients. So I think that a timeline and even for how I manage my own projects, like even whenever you and I are launching things for being boss. Getting a timeline in place, keeps everyone really accountable to doing their part and also sets again my expectation of knowing when everything is going to be done. So for me timelines are huge just as far as hitting my own benchmarks and hitting my own milestones and hitting my own deadlines. And I include a timeline in my contract, but also in an email. So one of the things that I do is set up every single client meeting, because I know how long it takes me to do the work that I do from start to finish. So we have five meetings total. But I'm scheduling them all out from the beginning. And one of the things that that does for me is it allows me to see my schedule in advance, it allows me to book out 12 clients at a time without feeling too much of a squeeze or knowing how I'm going to be able to handle it. And so that's huge. For me, it's just that timeline. You guys all know that I love my Google Calendar. I use it for everything. So I include my client meetings in my Google Calendar. So one thing that I experimented with that I'll actually share here as far as project management and working with clients, is I and Val Geisler talks about this too, but I filled out my dream week, and even a dream quarter of what it would look like to have X amount of clients, and to space out all the meetings in my calendar before I ever even close the clients. So like one, this is kind of like chalkboard effect. So if you don't know about the chalkboard magic, it's basically getting a chalkboard and drawing blank spaces to fill with future clients. And listen to episode number. I think it's 48. with Jay, prior, we talked about the magic chalkboard there. But I think that creating space in your Google calendar is kind of the same thing where maybe you schedule out all of your client meetings in advance, and then you start to fill those up with clients as they come. It's a really great way to stay accountable to how much time you want to spend working. So let's say you start to get more clients. And you're already booked up. It's good problem to have. But you might say no for your own work like sanity, sometimes it's just hard to say no, whenever you don't know what your calendar actually looks like, you might think that you can take on more than you can't. And I'm totally guilty of this. I said yes to far too many things in 2015. Because I had no like landscape of my calendar. So

Emily Thompson: 37:17

I agree with that. I I actually found a new app yesterday. No, earlier this week, hold on, I have to it's called timeline. It was 299 in the app store for my Mac, and it works with your like iCal and it's really spectacular allowed me to like actually mapped out all of like our indie typography projects, as well as like boys development projects, as well as the big boss projects. And it's all just like out there. So I know like what sort of client client bulk I can take. It was pretty magical. Wow.

Kathleen Shannon: 37:49

Okay, so I got your Evernote where you were like I booked everything out for the next four months or you know, scheduled it all out. I was like, What the hell Emily? Like, how are you? I got a new app. But now I know it's because you've got have an app going out for that.

Emily Thompson: 38:03

So no, yeah, bugging things out is really, really important. I want to like mention, you're going back to timelines, you timeline out your payments as well. And I mean, we do as well, we have monthly payments for indie moon, which makes it really easy. But you include payments as part of that project timeline, which ensures that you get yourself paid on time.

Kathleen Shannon: 38:23

Why and it takes the money conversation out of the picture. So it's not awkward. We're just saying Okay, and then you pay me at this point. So that's really nice. So

Emily Thompson: 38:34

let's talk about managing clients when it comes to them not paying.

Unknown: 38:38

I've never had that.

Emily Thompson: 38:41

Awesome. Well, okay. Since Since launching indie boom, especially we haven't had that happen until recently. Yes, well in, I want to talk about how I manage that situation. But okay, I am a client management like badass. Like, I have a way of managing, going south. moments with such

Unknown: 39:07

panache

Emily Thompson: 39:11

that my clients love me even whenever things start getting sticky. So I recently had this happen. And David had told me, you know, we had a client or we had a payment that had not come through and I was like, well wait a couple days, it's fine. Like, we'll see what happens and it still hadn't come through. So I told my entire team to stop working on this project. And we like this is like the week before potential launch of this project. So stopping work on it was kind of a big deal. And I wrote an email to the client where it was like first and foremost, I've told the team to stop the project. Let's talk about payment. And I outlined to her like, you know, money was due on this day. You guys have been really great paying so far. i'm pretty sure it's just a little a little snafu we need to get this taken care of or nothing else is happening on your project it was paid within two hours so i know that a lot of people struggle with having clients not pay for things and this is also one of the reasons why i built in the boom because as a service provider who who works with clients and you know gets paid in payments and especially sometimes those last couple of payments may not come through the reason why i structured in the boom the way i have and the reason why i've restructured our one off projects in a similar way is that i am never working for free ever so i'm not getting paid at the beginning in the end of a project i'm getting paid at the beginning in the middle of a project or every month during a six or 12 month project so that if for some reason i'm not getting paid i stopped working i'm not out anything and this structure is a little like weird for our community of people and not when that has to be adopted by everyone but just because it's not the norm doesn't mean that it's not bad ass because being able to hold ransom my time and the time of my team for for payment for things that people want puts the power back in my wheelhouse because as the professional it is our power i think to keep but also writing very clear video i said there like two points that i have in terms of managing clients one of those is setting expectations and the other of those is say what you mean whenever

Unknown: 41:38

you thank you say what you mean

Emily Thompson: 41:41

yeah so whenever it comes to asking for payments or whenever it comes to dealing with a bad situation which i know we'll get to in a minute it's not about flowering up your language with with lots of metaphors and nonsense it's about being a boss and saying what you mean and if you aren't going to continue working because you haven't gotten payment say i've stopped working until i've gotten payment or whatever it needs that needs to be said i think the most boss you can be comes whenever you just say what you mean

Unknown: 42:13

and i think the longest saying that mean is telling them what you want like what is it that you want them to do

Emily Thompson: 42:21

yeah that is such a huge one so often i get in like middle of well not even me anymore but long time ago whenever i was learning like how to do this it was you know client saying well i don't know what you need for me well let me tell you what i need

Unknown: 42:38

in very plain language can i use this for lack of better words but it may have been your fault that they were saying i don't know what you need absolutely

Kathleen Shannon: 42:48

i guess they didn't understand what content or they didn't understand that they need to hire a photographer to take their photos that you weren't going to do for them until you launched

Emily Thompson: 42:57

right well and that all comes into you know saying what you mean and telling them what you need and at some point i didn't know that i needed to tell people what i needed like i expected them to know and so i'm telling you the lessons that i've learned over my last six years is good tell them what you need and say what you mean i'm really here to talk about running an efficient online business doing business online is all about solutions

Unknown: 43:32

solutions we're

Emily Thompson: 43:33

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Kathleen Shannon: 44:34

so um one of the things i think that we both like right now which is awesome and we talked before about the emails really concise you and i even send each other emails like this that are all that headline bulleted highlighted and mean my sister

Emily Thompson: 44:53

and then a final call to action

Kathleen Shannon: 44:54

and then a final call to action and i love so like one of the things i do whenever i'm using to make plays When sending the emails as I only asked them one, maybe two questions at a time, so that way they answer the question and I bold it. So whether it's deleting time, even setting up our podcast interviews, I don't send everybody everything at once because it's information overload. So and that's really hard for me to not overload someone with information, because my process is so in depth. So again, that's part of visual hopping on Skype, I have a few different forms of communication that, that really humanize everything that we're doing. So I Okay, so let's just get into this communication, I will not so one of the things that you said you won't work with a client, if they won't work within the systems, I will work as a client if they want, like, we need to get face to face time. Because what I feel it does is it makes us also much more human, and where people working as people. And I also think that it helps me do my best work because I can really feel their energy or their vibe around their brand. And I can see what's really rising to the top because they get excited about it. I can ask them more questions about that. So I really like getting on Skype with my clients, um, but also about communication. Well, this might be a little bit further, but I'm going to talk a little bit about like what to do with that. So like you send that client things didn't go bad yet, right? Because they just thought there were only two days late on their payments that you said, I stopped working. And so you can pay, here's what you need to do pay this amount here, right. And for me, I recently had a comment, and she's super lovely, great person, but a little bit tricky. Whenever it came to the literal graphic design of the project. They just very specific and secure. And one of the ways I got really say what you mean, was in an email, I was like, Hi. I just don't know, I honestly don't know what to do, like, you know, and I got really vulnerable. And I was scared that maybe it would make me not look like an expert. But at the same time, I wasn't really understanding what she was asking for. So I said that I'm not understanding what you're asking for. I'm honestly sorry, you feel a little frustrated around, you know, this is like our eighth round of revisions. And then I said, Can we hop on Skype and just talk about this. So that was the way that I really wanted to turn it around. I wanted to humanize the situation again, and not make it into a US against them kind of situation, which is easy to do. It's easy to villainize our client whenever you're frustrated or scared that you're not doing a good job. And that's what happened to me. I felt like I wasn't doing a good job. And I got scared. And I wanted to blame my client. But then whenever I took a step back, I realize, no, no, this is the person who's paying a lot of money. To get what she wants out of this, I just need to better understand what she wants. And I also want to better say what I mean, by getting more creative rationale by brainstorming with her by getting her in on the process a little bit more by collaborating rather than acting like I know it all or that she doesn't know anything.

Emily Thompson: 48:15

Yeah, I completely agree. I think I love that you touch on that humanizing piece because I feel like that's a lot of times where people stop, like, that's the part where everyone just throws up their hands and says, I'm done. Like, this person is emailing me, you know, talking to me like a badge or like or whatever it may be, and then you just throw up your hands. But I found this to whenever things get really tough and and I agree, like I want as much of my communication written as possible. Because whenever you talk to me on the phone, I'm gonna forget shit like that is absolutely going to happen. I'm gonna forget what we talked about or forget what I told you to do, unless I'm like writing it down in the process. And even then, having that stuff in writing is very important to my process is something I've discovered over the years, and something I don't move on very often. But there are times when things start going south, when the best thing that you can do is re humanize each of yourself. So the other because whenever you're talking online to someone you're sending email after email, you're not talking to a person you're writing letters to the computer.

Unknown: 49:20

I mean, even when I'm texting my husband, I'm like, are you a real person? Are you an emoji?

Kathleen Shannon: 49:28

No, actually, I tell him to send me emojis. I'm like whenever you say okay, period, it makes me feel like you're mad at me I need or you might need a monkey emoji. I need a heart emoji. I need a kissy face emoji.

Emily Thompson: 49:43

Can like your little hotmail to watch the way I text you. I think I'm pissed all the time. I'm very much okay period person.

Kathleen Shannon: 49:52

Whatever you're texting me emojis have crystal balls and scar like sparkling stars.

Emily Thompson: 50:01

I have learned to enjoy the emojis quite a lot lately. But that is that's a fairly recent, this is me getting old, like I just discovered emojis. But going back to humanizing though I think that's really important. And I know that a lot of us who hide behind their computers to do the work that we do, we're all introverts or whatever it may be, get on the phone, like that kids sometimes can be one of the most professional, best things you can do, I have saved many a project, because websites are hard. Like whenever we're dent, like, deep into a website, and a client is like, why can't this move six pixels to the left? And it's because coding doesn't work that way, like

Unknown: 50:42

sometimes that client for you,

Emily Thompson: 50:45

I have to get on Skype and look at Kathleen and go look, honey. But know that sometimes getting on the phone and hearing each other's voice and hearing the frustration in each other's voice and like and finding that common calming place and explaining yourself in the moment or whatever it may be, or having them explain themselves. Because clients you know, clients are not always right. Is it can it can be the difference between a project that literally just ends and everyone's pissed and shit hits the fan, or things continue on and launch happens and everyone has a great day.

Kathleen Shannon: 51:20

Oh, yeah, I have a couple other client management tips that I want to share is I always invite them to tell me what they don't like. Yeah, I think yeah, I think that our biggest fear as creatives is that rejection, and I get it. I mean, I've been kind of not a rag for the last eight weeks, but but I've been doing so much design work. And I think it's so personal. I mean, I really love doing branding design, I love it. Whenever I'm in it, I'm in it. And then whenever I'm presenting it, I'm like, Oh my god, what if they don't like it. And so the morning before, I mean, Jeremy doesn't even want to be around me, because I'm so nervous leading into a meeting, I almost have stage fright about it. But one of the great things about our process is one, we have a mid checkpoint, where I put together a mood board, and I invite them to tell me what they like and don't like. So one, it makes them feel really heard, too, I'm getting a lot of really good information. Three, it's just not as personal whenever you're inviting the rejection, right. So one of the things that I present a final brand platform that I like to do, and that me and my sister both like to do is ask them to take a few days to look at it and to think on it. And if they have any questions, or if they want to tweak anything and 99% of the time, they don't really want to change much at all. But we tell them you don't have if you're if something feels sticky or isn't quite right. You don't have to solve the problem. That is our job. You just need to explain to us kind of more direction of like, what you're going for what you don't like about it. So in some ways, we ask our client to kind of skirt around the problem by describing the perimeter of the problem. And then we can get to the core and actually do the problem solving, if that makes sense.

Emily Thompson: 53:10

Sure. Yes, I think I think that getting your clients to tell you what they don't like about something is really important. And I I love having clients like doing that about my process as a whole. Like, whether it's what I'm delivering them or simply how it is that we work together as part of the feedback process of like, tell us what it is that didn't work. I think it's very important. And I want to bring up. We did we did a joint project of Brenda Mangalore has a braid in the boom project. And I remember and one of her branding meetings her talking about. She's a fine artist. And she was talking about how whenever she shows a painting to a client, it doesn't bother her if they don't like it because it's not, they're not telling her that they don't like her. It's just their views are a little different from her. And that's not judgment on her bar in a bad way. It's simply his opinion. It's

Kathleen Shannon: 54:06

so amazing. I take that shit so personal.

Unknown: 54:09

I know you did call my baby ugly.

Emily Thompson: 54:17

Everything I make is ugly. I do a little bit I'm I feel like I've grown out of that a little more, a little more as I've gotten older and really as I detach myself from web design, because even though I'm damn good at what I do, I don't see myself as a web designer in the capacity that I know you see yourself as a graphic designer, like I just don't it was something I fell into not something I went after purpose. So in that case, I find myself detaching from it a little bit more easily, but at the same time, it pisses me off when a client doesn't like what I send them

Kathleen Shannon: 55:00

So one of the things that I feel like I'm a good coin for you is that I rely on you for your expertise, not just around design strategy. So again, with this, like problem solving part, I will come to you and say, Okay, here's what I want to accomplish, here's what I want to be able to do. What is the best way to structure that, like, I'm asking you for what you see. And then at the same time, I come to you with my ideas, like, Hey, I'm thinking this and it really does feel more collaborative. And obviously, that's our relationship that we've built over, I think years. And now we have a shorthand around it. But at the same time, like, for example, we're about to redo being boss, like the being boss website, it's going to be probably a lot of me relying on you or me saying, hey, I've got this idea. Like, what if, if we're doing a blog, but we still want our podcasts in the sidebar? And then you might be like, okay, but let's try it this way. Right?

Emily Thompson: 55:54

Well, and I think that's a really great point to bring up. And I think, all everyone listening, this is going to be somewhere on the spectrum of starting out and being an expert. And if you're starting out, your clients are going to give you a lot of direction, because you're starting out and you need it. But if you are someone out there who's paying an expert, if you are paying high dollar expert to do what they do best for you, trust them, or hire someone who's starting out, like nothing grinds my gears more than being hired by someone who doesn't bother trusting me, because I'm damn good at what I do. And more times than I can count whenever like Cory goes to develop, if a client has been very difficult for me, in terms of design, Cory will come back and say, What is this that I'm looking because the first couple mock ups were mine, and were fantastic. The last couple were theirs. And like this is getting into a really deep, scary place. But really, it's one of those things, if you're going to bother hiring an expert and paying the high dollar for it, trust them to do what they do well for you, or go pay less for someone who's not that as much of an expert, I

Kathleen Shannon: 57:14

find that whenever I start to get most frustrated in a client relationship is whenever I go from being, you know, respected, authentic expert to pixel pusher. So I love do graphic design. Again, I do see it more as a tool in my tool belt now, and I love doing it probably, I love doing it for myself and for being boss and for braid. And for clients on occasion. I'm and I love creative, direct, creative directing my team. But I get the most frustrated Yeah, whenever I feel like I've just become a pixel pusher. And so like recently, for example, this is a good client management thing is, and being willing to say no to a project, I was referred to a potential client by someone that I really respect who's really great. And she knows a guy who needs an E book done. And so one red flag, he's a guy, again, like, he might be great, but it was. And too, it's the winter, things are a little slow. So I was like, okay, like, let's chat. And obviously, I'm not gonna turn someone off just because they're a guy, but let's chat about what he needs. He literally just needs layout and design. He already has a branding team, he already has all these things in place. So if he just needs an ebook laid out, I'm not the girl for him. Like he's gonna be paying a premium for that. Whenever there's so many other designers that could do that. So I actually even gotten the being boss, Facebook group went to our files where it says, what do you do, and I went to the designer section, and a few of the bosses that have been more active in the group that I kind of know or recognize, I copied and pasted their information to him. And I said, contact these people, you know, they might be able to do it and do a really great job. And again, I'm not saying that they're not experts, because they're doing it. They're just on a different place in their scale, or they might need some money. Okay, and so then let's say this, let's say they take on this job. They don't necessarily want jobs like that, but they could use a paycheck. Don't put it in your portfolio. So that's like circles all the way back around.

Emily Thompson: 59:21

Yeah, absolutely. I've done a couple. I've done a couple of ebook projects like that in the past that like, they're not my portfolio anymore. They got removed a long time ago. Because sometimes you just want to do things like that. And I enjoy doing things like that occasionally. But yeah, I think are we talking about? client community? Okay, I have a question. We got derailed.

Kathleen Shannon: 59:44

Have you ever had a fire client?

Emily Thompson: 59:46

Absolutely. meet you. Good. I think we should all do it. I'm actually in a place right now. Where I kind of want to fire a couple of

Kathleen Shannon: 59:57

I hate doing it and again, I will do everything I can to make that never happened. So that's we we started from the beginning with your own positioning and your own offering and red flags and all of that. But whenever it does come to firing a client, and even now I don't feel like it feels like firing anymore like it used to. Now it feels like hey, you know what, it turns out, we're not the best fit. And I think that there's someone who could do a better job for you. And that's the god honest truth. Whenever things aren't working out,

Emily Thompson: 1:00:24

you're actually doing them a favor, like, like when you get if you're at a place where you need to fire a client, you're doing both of you a favor. So So this is one of the reasons why I decided to build indie boom. So I had been doing one off projects for a really long time and was really sick of being used honestly, as a web designer who just knew skills. And I'd become official picks that up, I can even say a pixel pusher. I was designing and developing websites that weren't launching because the clients weren't actually serious about it. And so I was pouring my heart and soul into things that just got deleted a couple months later, and I mean shit like that. I was sick of it. So I decided to build in the boom, which you know, long term engagement so that I can actually get into businesses and help them build websites and actually work for them and all that jazz. But I also wanted to elevate myself to coach because no longer Am I pixel pusher like developer do what I say. But I'm actually going to help you get along and something that I found and websites are huge projects like I cannot say that enough times. And like, you need to be a coach almost to get through these big projects and a lot of our indie booms, not all of them. We've had some of the most dreamy engagements Lindsay Kluge from Ginger tannic, or ginger tonic botanicals that we had on couple episodes, Brenda that I brought up a minute ago, ideal clients, like I just want to hug them right now. But most of our clients have had what I call and what we call in the studio, the moment of reckoning where I literally have to send them an email to tell them to get their shit together.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:02:05

Okay, but you feel like, if you're having a moment of reckoning with a majority of your clients, does it make you reassess your process? Because whenever I get a stream of time, whenever I get a stream of clients, where like things just aren't going as smoothly as they could, I always not to blame myself or to flog myself or anything like that, but it is looking at Okay, what am I doing? Like? What is my positioning? Why am I attracting this? What and my process? Where in my process? Are there holes that can be filled with more productive or efficient systems?

Emily Thompson: 1:02:39

Right? So yes, absolutely. And that's one of the reasons why, you know, we hired Val this year to help us with our system that we were having some, and again, not bad problems, because we continue, they were not like firing clients, we weren't firing anyone. And it wasn't even that we were attracting the wrong clients. It's just that whenever you're working six to 12 months with someone, they're, they're become or they're we come to like the peak in the mountain, where they just need help getting over the top. And as the coach, that's my job. And so that's kind of been a, a side effect of going into these indie booms where I found myself like, at some point during many projects, and usually this is like, they can't decide on the direction their website needs to go in. Well, I'm not here to help you figure out your business model. I'm here to help you build a bit of website around your business.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:03:35

Okay, so they can't figure out the direction their website, but I think you meant business.

Emily Thompson: 1:03:39

Oh, yes. I meant

Kathleen Shannon: 1:03:40

or like, yeah, that's, that's a big thing that I see happen a lot in website. whenever it comes to building your website. Like that's whenever the rubber meets the road, like, what is it that you're doing? How are you making money? And I feel like that's where a lot of questioning comes up. So I do feel like that gets taken out on the website designer, developer coach,

Emily Thompson: 1:04:00

right. So the moment of reckoning is usually the place where I tell them to start making decisions basically, or like we currently have a project and again, it's not like in a firing scenario, but like coaching capacity. She was late for multiple deadlines, missed multiple meetings, and then her website's not gonna launch on time. Not my fault, not my team's fault moment of reckoning came where I sent an email, like, you know, we still have nine months left on this project. If you want this to work, you're going to meet your deadlines. And I think that comes like that place where making crystal clear expectations and saying absolutely What you mean is where is where you make a living doing what you're doing, working one on one with people, and certainly like, I could have done it better years ago, and I have to do it harder now because they're such engaging, engaged. But it's absolutely required on any part of the spectrum.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:05:04

Have you ever had a moment of reckoning with me? That I didn't know about?

Emily Thompson: 1:05:12

No, no, you have been dream.

Unknown: 1:05:14

Oh, thank you.

Emily Thompson: 1:05:17

Well, and it's not everyone you would know, you would not be a question. Because it's usually one of those emails where there are a couple of like bolded sections, and like a very clear call to action, which usually,

Kathleen Shannon: 1:05:31

okay, so my moment of reckoning with you, as we're starting a podcast.

Emily Thompson: 1:05:37

Right, the moment of reckoning with you, you need to make a decision, are we doing this or not? Because, like, really, that's where it is. And that goes back to multiple episodes that we have done. where, you know, we talked about focusing and making decisions. Like as coach, it's my job to help build better entrepreneurs, and help them launch websites and do what they say and want to do. And, like, I don't know, that is obviously the very far extreme of having to manage clients, but it's something that I'm damn good at, like, I had to do when recently, Cory, Cory, on slack said something to me about, like, it's kind of eerie, like, how it is that you can make people do what you need them to do. And I've thought about that a lot. Like, I struggle with writing for my blog and things. And it's because I have to write crazy emails all the time. Like, I am a writer, I'm an email,

Unknown: 1:06:34

email writer.

Emily Thompson: 1:06:36

I am. But it's really important. And it makes me like I, again, I manage huge projects, and I manage clients on a scale that would probably make most people listening to this barf. Like, my brain is tired at the end of the day because of the things that I have to manage. But I also love what I do. And I love these one on one projects, and I do in the bones, because I believe in what they are. But I couldn't do them if I didn't manage clients like a boss.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:07:03

That's exactly right. And I think that one thing I want to say like the client love, I love my clients, even the ones where it starts to go a little sticky. At the end of the day, I'm so proud of them. I'm so proud of what they've created. I'm so honored that I get to be a part of that. And I think that that goes back to that higher purpose part of really knowing why you do what you do, so that you don't become resentful, whenever things get tough, because things are going to get tough. They just are absolutely. And so we spend a lot of the time on this podcast talking about clients that were it's a little bit harder, but I wouldn't say that even the dreamiest clients that become your best friends. Um, they also deserve a professional level of management, just like everyone else. So Absolutely.

Emily Thompson: 1:07:55

Well, and I think that just goes along with like, looking as a professional or looking. Yeah, looking like a perfect being being a professional. Right? Because dreamy clients are dreamy, because you manage them perfectly. Because even the dreamiest clients, if mismanaged, are going to have a shit time with you. 100% Yes. So like client management is everything. And it is how it is how you build relationships. I mean, I have clients that I've worked with for years, and I'm the hard ass that I am with them as I am with everyone else. And it's like that, that level of management that makes them trust me to build their online business. So you know, you may not be building websites, you may just be you know, it doesn't matter what if you're coaching people on their health, or if you are designing their living room, or if you are, I don't know designing their brand or designing an E book. Like, you have to manage them so that they see you as the expert so that you can do your job the best way you can. And whenever both whenever all the things like come together and magical synchronicity, and you have found the right client and they are you know, they're being well managed. They're allowing you to manage them, and your management is impeccable. Then you end up with the dreamiest client scenarios. And those those client relationships are why I keep doing what I do.

Unknown: 1:09:29

Amen. Hey, man. Oh,

Emily Thompson: 1:09:34

I love them. Appreciate the hell outta me.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:09:38

Thank you to all my clients, but also thank you to all of our listeners. Because even though being bosses, I have clients, we cannot do what we're doing without our listener. So I hope that you guys are getting some value out of our podcast.

Emily Thompson: 1:09:52

Right? And so now it's time to manage you. You should absolutely go sign up for our newsletter. Being boss Facebook group. Do what I say

Unknown: 1:10:01

and come hang out with us and and come hang out with us in Miami. Yes,

Emily Thompson: 1:10:06

let's talk about and I'll show you how sweet I actually.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:10:10

So we are having another being boss vacation in Miami we've already launched it to our Nola bosses, the bosses who came with us to New Orleans. Then we launched it to our newsletter list. So again, another reason to sign up for our newsletter is that

Unknown: 1:10:26

you

Kathleen Shannon: 1:10:26

get earlybird access to things like our vacation. You're the first No, we have unlimited spots, Nola sold out really fast, unsuspecting Miami, especially after January is going to be filling up fast.

Emily Thompson: 1:10:42

know if you're sitting there in the cold right now just close your eyes. Think about palm trees and the sun on your skin and then go buy a ticket to my

Kathleen Shannon: 1:10:55

so this is another vacation we're limiting it to 75 bosses. We're going to be doing a masterclass structured workshops, a live podcast recording and then a lot of free time this is first and foremost a vacation for fellow bosses to connect with each other and hang out and just have a really good time. Nola was magical I suspect that Miami is going to be a blast. So we hope to see you guys there. Just go to love being boss calm slash Miami to learn more. Thank you for listening to being boss. Find Show Notes for this episode at love being boss calm. Listen to past episodes and subscribe to new episodes on our website on iTunes, SoundCloud

Unknown: 1:11:39

or Stitcher.

Emily Thompson: 1:11:40

Did you like this episode? Head on over to our Facebook group by searching being boss on facebook and join in on the conversation with other bosses or share it with your friends. Do the work be boss? I will see you next week.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:12:11

turning up my game just one more notch because my little sound thing is like little

Unknown: 1:12:18

Oh, you're loud my ears. I mean, I'm trying to put my face right up in it. Just for you, Cory There you go. That's his job.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:12:39

How could he know I gotta make it worthwhile somehow. Right?