#72 - Seasons of Creating with Nicole Antoinette

Writer and Real Talk Radio podcaster, Nicole Antionette, is joining us to talk about finding your voice, showing up as you are, seasons of creating, and the importance of sharing your stories.

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Transcript

Emily Thompson: 0:45

Hello and welcome to being boss episode number 72. This episode is brought to you by fresh books cloud accounting. Being boss and work and life is being in it.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:01

It's being who we are doing the work, breaking some rules. And even though we each have to do it on our own,

Emily Thompson: 1:08

being boss is knowing we're in it together.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:12

Today we are chatting with writer and podcaster Nicole Antoinette about finding your voice showing up as you are and really the importance of sharing your stories. I want to take a second to give a shout out to our sponsor fresh books cloud accounting, fresh books is an easy to use invoicing software designed to help creative entrepreneurs get organized, save time invoicing and get paid faster. One of the things I run into our side hustling creatives or creatives that haven't quite quit their day job, but are still freelancing on the side and making money feel like they aren't legit enough to have something like freshbooks yet, but you guys even if you have one client or 100 clients or 1000 clients freshbooks makes it easy at any size. So try fresh books for free today go to freshbooks comm slash being boss and enter being boss in the How did you hear about us section. You can try fresh books for 30 days for free on us. Now I first heard about Nicole through our mutual friend Sarah Vaughn bargain. And I have been bingeing on her podcasts and our newsletters ever since. And Nicole, we are so excited to have you on being boss. Thank you for joining us.

Nicole Antoinette: 2:23

I am so excited to thank you guys.

Kathleen Shannon: 2:27

So let's just jump in. Well, okay, actually, I do have a icebreaker. I was listening to your podcast and you had an icebreaker with a guest. And I was like, Oh, we should do that

Emily Thompson: 2:37

here.

Kathleen Shannon: 2:38

So here's my icebreaker question. If you could choose a different name for yourself, what would your name be?

Nicole Antoinette: 2:46

Like a different first name? You mean?

Unknown: 2:48

Yeah.

Nicole Antoinette: 2:49

Well, when I was in college, I had like a flashback. This kind of Alter Ego persona that I named Kiki, I don't think I've ever told this story before. That it that was kind of the alter ego that I would call on when I needed to do hard things like Kiki was this like complete and total badass that could just do anything. So anytime I was in a situation that it felt really hard and scary to do public speaking or you know, give a talk or do anything like that. I would say it's fine to call because you don't have to do it. Like you're off duty Kiki's in charge, he's gonna do it. So I don't know if that's what I would pick for my actual real name. But that's the first thing that came to my mind.

Unknown: 3:27

I love

Emily Thompson: 3:28

it. Good. Kiki, I feel like I feel like that's like the best stripper name.

Kathleen Shannon: 3:36

Hey, isn't there something like on Sex in the City about a Kiki?

Unknown: 3:41

I don't. I do not know.

Emily Thompson: 3:43

So there is a thing like in the I don't even know what community I guess you could say the LGBT community. But it's known as a Kiki is like a little like, get together. It's a little party that you have. There's a song called let's have a Kiki. That's probably one of my favorite songs ever. So love that name.

Nicole Antoinette: 4:07

That's so funny. I The other thing about like different names or different identities. And so this summer, I'm going to be going on a four week solo backpacking trip, which is the first time that I've ever done anything even remotely like that. And I've been bingeing on basically as many blogs and books and memoirs from people who have done you know, really long distance hikes, whether it's the Pacific Crest Trail, you know, the Appalachian Trail, all these things, and one of the common parts of the culture is that when you're out on the trail, you're kind of fellow people that you meet wind up giving you a trail name, so it's like usually some kind of silly nickname or something that has to do with that. So I've been thinking about that a lot too. Just not just the nickname aspect with the idea of like having almost like becoming a not a different identity, but sort of like you're bringing out this other part of yourself. So I don't know what my trail name will be. But I've been thinking about that as well. I love

Kathleen Shannon: 4:56

that. Okay, so aside from wild, which if you guys have not read wild yet, it's pretty good one. What other books are you reading on this?

Nicole Antoinette: 5:05

Yeah, I this is probably terrible to say I actually didn't love wild I love her and tiny beautiful things is probably one of if not my favorite book, but I didn't super love wild. I did love if we're talking about the trail stuff. A book by a woman named carat Quinn, I actually think that is her trail name. It's called the thru hiking will break your heart. It's such a wonderful book. This was actually the book that tipped me into, okay, like I'm going to do this for real. I'm going to take this trip and I read her book. The strongest recommendation I can ever give a book is I usually read everything on my Kindle first, either from the library or that I bought on Amazon. And I only own I mean probably fewer than 10 books and as soon as I finished reading it on Kindle I ordered I was like, I need to have this book that I can hold in my hands. And so it's one of a couple of books that I have a hard copy of. And I loved it.

Kathleen Shannon: 5:52

Alright, I'm going to read this. I'm obsessed with hiking and being on trails. It's one of my favorite things. I don't get nearly enough of it, though. And that brings me to like, Okay, well, we need to talk about this four week hike. But first, I want to ask a little bit about your journey, if you will, well, we'll use hiking as a metaphor through this whole podcast. But I would love to hear about your creative journey, because I was reading your about page and again, like I don't, I'm so excited to get to know you a little bit better on this podcast. Like I legit feel like we're having a coffee date here. And I want to know a little bit more about your creative journey. Like I know that you grew up in lots of different cities, and that you got a degree in food right in New York.

Unknown: 6:36

Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon: 6:38

Tell me more about your journey. And like how that led you to where you are today?

Nicole Antoinette: 6:41

And yeah, sure. I yeah, I was a food studies major at NYU, which is kind of this small program that I don't know if they even have it at any other schools, but it's which it this really has nothing to do with anything that I'm doing right now. So I guess we don't have to dig into that too much. Other than that, I love food and cooking. So it's more of kind of a passion thing. But creative journey kind of leading to where I am now. Actually, interestingly, this conversation would have been completely different. About seven months ago, I'm kind of in an interesting transitional pivot place creatively, which obviously, we can talk about. But if I go back and start at what feels like the beginning, I started blogging in July of 2007, which is like a million years ago in internet time, right?

Kathleen Shannon: 7:22

And it was just like on live journal, what platform were you on? And I know,

Nicole Antoinette: 7:25

right? Well, now in college, I did have a zanka, which was like live journals, kind of like week cousin. But no, it was it was just a free, like, you know, wordpress.com blog, and it was just a personal blog, I, you know, wanted an outlet for telling honest stories. And I didn't feel like I had a lot of in person relationships where we were having conversations about hard things, or just like true conversation. So I started this personal blog as a way to share our stories and just made the commitment to myself that I'm going to tell the truth about my life, that was really my kind of through line for all of all of the writing that I was doing. And that certainly I had no idea that it was going to morph into anything other than just like a little side thing, there was no, this is going to be a business, you know, anything like that. You know, so I just for years really Chronicle my life, wound up meeting a lot of wonderful friends, you know, other bloggers, it really became a big part of my social life. And at that time, I was living a really different lifestyle. That's back when I was drinking, and I had this like, very intense kind of party lifestyle, and the blog definitely reflected that. And in 2011, I went through a series of pretty big personal changes, I quit drinking, which was really a huge deal. And I did it very publicly, like I was blogging about it the whole time. And anyone who had been in my space, you know, for the years previous to that knew that this was a really big deal. And so, you know, I was kind of talking about the emotional side of that. And I started running at the same time, I quit drinking and started running on the same day, which could be a whole other podcast, I guess. But it, I had never been athletic. I mean, I could barely run two minutes when I first started. And, you know, it was really kind of the way out of the drinking hole for me. And I was very like, again, like very public and honest about that whole kind of transition process. And I think there was just something that sparked for other people that it's not like I had been an athlete since I was 12. And you know, was this kind of fitness inspiration like, not that those aren't real people, but it was a very kind of real girl makes change type of situation. And, you know, then wound up making some other changes transitioning to a plant based diet over a series of years, really just a bunch of things, my entire lifestyle changed. And through that I personally became really obsessed with the process of change the questions of how do we close the gap between what we say we want and what we actually do? Why are some people seemingly more able to change than others? Why is someone able to successfully make one change, but then struggles a lot with a different change? And you know, really kind of just boiling down to this idea of, okay, like in real life? How do we change our lives like that was personally like, definitely an obsession for me. And that started to leak out a lot through the writing that I was doing. And I found about maybe about a year, year and a half after I first quit drinking, that as I was exploring these questions myself, I was Cemil simultaneously getting inquiries from people who were interested in making changes of their own. And there was something about what I had done that I think felt more real or more approachable. You know, so I get these emails. What have you learned about change? Can you help me I want to do X thing, but I don't know how and I started think, okay, there's something here. You know, if you get a one off question, it's just a one off question. But then when you start getting kind of a ton of questions about the same thing, it's for me a little bit of a flag of Oh, interesting. Like, maybe this could be something so that's when i first started thinking of creating any kind of business or really drawing any kind of lines around what i was doing because up until then it had just you know i had a job it was kind of just like a side thing and the first program that i created was called the no bs run club and it was basically to help people like me who weren't actual actual beginners to kind of get off the couch and start running and i you know i partnered up with a running coach and it was this kind of really fun program that i just anyone who was interested in making the same changes you know so that was really the first thing that i did as a business and it was about running but it was really more about that change making process on a day to day basis and you know on the group calls we wound up talking less about the logistics of running and training and more about the emotional side of things motivation fear of what other people will think if you start to make changes how to keep going when it feels hard like all of that kind of stuff that was running was essentially like the arena in which we talked about it but the conversations were actually a lot more rich than that and that is what interested me the most and it led me to quitting my job and starting a goal setting and accountability coaching practice practice to help people really approach change and what i felt was a sane and realistic way that acknowledged that we're not robots and like things go wrong and kind of just like the hilarious absurd and often like very tough and unpredictable experience of being human and so i did that for about three three and a half years worked with tons of wonderful people and the thing that really got under my skin and lit me up the most during those years and that work wasn't necessarily the goals and the changes that were being made but the conversations we were having coaching sessions i don't know they quickly became less about accountability for specific action steps and more of a dialogue about deeper and more uncomfortable stuff like pain and you know fear and disappointment what happens when you set a goal and don't achieve it you know shame how our identity is linked into you know what we do on a day to day basis you know what it means that people like this photo on instagram more than this photo you know just that kind of stuff and i felt really inflow having these types of conversations where it was just two people or even a small group of people sharing what's true for them at any given moment no one's the teacher or the preacher no one's perfect it's just let's talk about stuff and you know kind of the comfort that comes from that me too moment where someone shares something and you're like oh my god me too right i'm not alone and that was really the common denominator when i was looking at my own life like all i want is to not feel alone right to not feel like i'm this like special snowflake that i'm the only one that ever experiences this or that's ever scared of that thing and you know so that's a lot of what came out of that and i remember thinking that you know after hanging up the phone with one particular coaching session i was like this this is the world that i want to live in i want to live in a world that's powered just by honest human conversations and saying that now that sounds really simple but for whatever reason that was really powerful for me and that question kind of asking yourself what world do you want to live in i have found to be incredibly powerful because it made me wonder what i was waiting for like if that's the world that i want to live in then it's up to me to do what i can do to build that and i so i wound up actually wrapping up my business towards the end of last year took a sabbatical did some deep thinking and started the real talk radio podcast and the whole idea behind the show was kind of exactly that just honest long form conversations about the kind of wonderful crazy mess of being human so as far as the creative journey goes i'm really in the early stages of the podcast right now really no idea of what the future looks like you know what the show but it feels really good to be creating kind of a body of work and a community of people who are committed to this idea of basically like a real talk revolution like we're not perfect life is hard and fantastic and you know we're not alone and so it's yeah it's kind of like i said an interesting time to be having this conversation because i don't really know what's next but it feels good to be in the baby stages of it

Kathleen Shannon: 14:47

amen to all of that i have so many questions i feel like i could probably talk to you for like i mean maybe i should just join you on the trail and we could talk for four weeks i'm okay so i have a few questions i'm not sure which one to go with first so i'll just go with this one i know that you've been in a lot of different places and the idea that you're obsessed with change and honest conversation i know that you recently did you recently moved from the city to bend oregon or when did that happen

Nicole Antoinette: 15:22

yeah my husband and i moved up to bend the very end of october 2014 so about a year and a half ago

Kathleen Shannon: 15:27

okay and where did you move from

Nicole Antoinette: 15:29

from los angeles

Kathleen Shannon: 15:31

okay so i've lived in oklahoma city my whole life and i've recently become obsessed with the idea of moving and that's got me thinking and especially thinking hearing you talk about change how How does his sense of place change who we are? and what doesn't it change? So I'd be so curious to hear you talk about that move a little bit, and maybe how it's facilitated change for you? Or maybe you know, what hasn't changed?

Nicole Antoinette: 15:58

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, not that this is unique to just me, I'm not the only one that has experienced this. But since I've moved so much, you know, I can't really speak to what it would be like to have lived in the same city almost my whole life to have all my friends and family in the same place and then decide to move like, obviously, I think that that comes with its own set of, you know, challenges are positives and negatives. That was never my story, this house that we're living in now is the 21st house or apartment I've lived in, in my life. And I'm only 30. So, I mean, I've moved a ton both with my family when I was a child, and as an adult as well. So that change as far as like, actually, physical geographical change has been a really constant part of my story. So you know, and it's interesting. Now, having made a move, not that anything's permanent, but the idea behind this move was a lot more permanent. So I'm actually finding that the change and the uprooting and moving to a new place, like that was a very safe feeling, for me a very safe space, especially during more self destructive periods of my life, a lot of that corresponding with drinking, when it would just be Oh, I've kind of burnt my life to the ground, okay, I'll just like pick up and move somewhere else. Like it was a very much an escapism tactic for me. So this time around, having made this decision to move here, really intentionally, having made this decision with a partner, as opposed to on my own, which was pretty much all of my other moving scenarios, it's actually been really uncomfortable to try to put down roots. So that's definitely something that I'm still navigating this idea of, I mean, we live in a house, we bought a house, I've only lived in basically tiny apartments in big cities my whole life. So there's that change. Obviously, bend is really small compared to I grew up in Manhattan, and in London, you know, and then have lived in San Francisco and LA. And so living in a smaller city, where just the culture is really very different. And there's been more kind of culture shock than I expected. But yeah, it's, it's really brought up for me this question of what makes a home. And I think for some people, it's, you know, being rooted in the place that they grew up where their families are that kind of thing, but all my friends and family are pretty much spread out, you know, all over the country and or all over the world. And so this idea of, you know, being 30, and wanting to feel a sense of home, and some put down some kind of roots for the very first time and not having had any childhood roadmap of how to do that has been really interesting. I have no wisdom at all to share. But it's been it's been tough, it's been tougher than I thought it was gonna be.

Unknown: 18:28

Wow, I find that

Emily Thompson: 18:32

I find that so interesting in so many ways. And let me like back up, like as someone who I have lived in probably six different places in the past 15 years or so. So like, lived in the same house, pretty much my entire life childhood and then the moment I turned 18, like just moving every couple of years, and we just did the same things as seven, eight months ago, we bought a house. And so for the first time in a really, really long time, like intentionally setting down roots somewhere because same thing, like not even moving from house to house moving from like, state to state. So I totally get that. I also want to touch on what Kathleen was talking about there with this idea of sense of place. Because as someone who has like education and geography, like that's, that's so ingrained in me and is something that like I look at in terms of what I've experienced from being in all of these different places over the past couple of years, and especially as I've like, culminated this AI for like what a place is and, and I think I look forward, I want to talk to you about this again in like a year and sort of hear what it is that you have to say after sort of stopping and being in this place for so long. And see sort of what comes up for you in terms of how a place can mold you. Because living in especially moving from big cities like that and then settling into somewhere that's a little more world though bend oregon isn't really like the middle of nowhere too bad. Because a place can can absolutely mold you in ways that that I think few people really expect and whenever we moved, we intentionally moved to a place like we chose a place that we wanted to live because of where it was in terms of like climate and where it was in terms of proximity to water and the sort of foliage that would be surrounding us. And by all those things like the people that are shaped by all those things being around those things as well. So I don't you do have a really awesome perspective, I think of what it's like to just sort of move around and be in all these different places and experience all these different places, but I also Wonder what you're going to feel? Once you give yourself some time to experience a place fully?

Nicole Antoinette: 20:51

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I love your perspective, I love everything you just said. And this, this is the first time that I've ever moved somewhere for the place. Other moves have been for school or for work, or you know, because of someone else or that type of thing. So, I mean, we, I had never been to bend before we came here to buy our house, we didn't know, we didn't have any friends and family here and that we really wanted a different lifestyle than what we had in Los Angeles. And our number one thing was really easy access to nature, and just kind of like a quieter pace of life. And obviously, that could have been a bunch of different places, it wound up being banned for any number of reasons. But so for all of that, like those boxes are totally ticked, like as far as the place goes, I really love it. And I feel like it's definitely was the right choice, at least for right now. The things that have been harder, are more of the community aspect of things, especially, you know, my husband and I both work from home. So I think it's different if you move to a place and you have an office to go into and you meet people that way. It's kind of this idea, which sounds kind of funny to say, but like, how do you make friends as an adult, which is kind of which that's what's come up for me of this question of I realized, so many of the friends that I've made have been through situational convenience, you know, you're in school together, or you're in this place. And so it's more that it's more the community aspect of it, that I'm finding challenging, but I mean, everything that I've heard, it takes, you know, 123 years minimum for a place to feel like home in that regard. So I feel like I have a lot of patience with it, because this isn't a short term decision, because we know that we do want to stay here. You know, it's it's going to take as long as it takes. And to be honest, I could try a little harder, you know, to not be such a homebody. But the place itself. Yeah, is is wonderful.

Kathleen Shannon: 22:29

Well, I grew, I've grown up, I've been in the same place my whole life. So craving, and I mean, Oklahoma City, which is not a place that people go for a destination very often. But we do have a solid sense of community here. And there's a lot of creatives here who are kind of making something out of nothing, if you will, but I'm ready to live in a place where that that community is nurtured and fostered and celebrated Even so, I've got my eyes on Seattle right now, I definitely think that Pacific Northwest, I'm curious about living in a city, but with access to nature. So anyway, it's just something that I will continue to obsess over. And I'm interested on your perspective of change, and how a sense of place might change me as well. Okay, so I have kind of a logistical question. I'm really curious about it. So I bet some of our listeners will be curious about it. You started your own business, doing coaching, and that was probably quite a leap. And then coming out of that, and starting a business doing podcasting. And and you don't have to answer this, and we can even edit it out if it makes you uncomfortable. But I'm curious, like, how do you make money doing that?

Nicole Antoinette: 23:43

Oh, no, I'm totally comfortable talking about okay. I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find something I'm not comfortable talking about?

Unknown: 23:48

Awesome.

Nicole Antoinette: 23:49

So yeah, so that's an interesting question. And kind of what I meant about being in a period of transition. So starting the business the first time, it actually didn't feel that hard and didn't feel like a leap because it was so organic. Like I never sat down one day and said, Okay, I want to start a business. What am I good at? What do I want to do like it because it grew out of the blogs, so organically, it was actually a pretty smooth transition, you know, people were asking for this, and I created the running program, and it did really well. And so it was kind of just like one thing into another thing. So that element of it was great. And, you know, especially coupled with the fact that I've never had a quote, normal job, like I've never gone into an office and worked nine to five, ever, I've always had kind of these, like strange, either self employment type of situations, or seasonal jobs, I was the director of children's summer day camp for five years. So that was, you know, super intense during the summer, and then not so much the rest of the year. So even there wasn't as big of a transition as I think there might be for someone who has years or even decades of maybe a more structured or traditional experience to then work for themselves. So in that regard, you know, it the transition, I think maybe wasn't as dramatic as it might sound. But when it was, you know, when I decided that I wanted to wrap up the business, and there were a couple of different reasons. But you know, we can get into this. But one of the, one of the driving forces for me to stop coaching was in no, I loved it. I worked with great people. But I feel that my strongest work comes from honestly sharing my own stories kind of what's going on in my real life in real time. And that's often very messy. Like I've talked very publicly about alcohol. I've talked very publicly about struggles with depression. And I think that that's kind of what my most powerful impact can be. And I was starting to find a little bit through coaching, that I was censoring myself a little bit in ways that I think were actually quite Smart because, you know, we say that we want an average just using coaching as an example. But it's the same thing with someone you know, who's a writer or designer, anything. You know, we say that we want people to be real. And I think we do, but only to a point, like, if I'm hiring someone to do a service for me, whatever that is, I don't want to know that their life is falling apart, essentially, whether that's wrong or not, I don't know. But that's just the most honest thing I can say. And I had one instance, in particular, when I was coaching, that, you know, my depression had just flared up and I was really struggling a lot. And I was about to write something about it. I was still blogging at that time. I'm not anymore, but I was about to write something about it that day. And I but I had a coaching call scheduled with, you know, a long term client that afternoon at 3pm. And I thought, you know, what, if I were a client of someone that happened to read that this person was having a really hard time, and then I was getting on the phone with them, like that would make me feel weird as a client. And so I didn't publish that post, which when in kind of that service focus thing, I think, was the right choice. But that was really the first time that I was like, okay, Nicole, you say that your work. And your strongest thing is to share the truth of your own life. And now your business is getting in the way of that. And that was really kind of a point of reevaluation, for me. So that's just one example. But it happened a couple of times, to the point where I was like, Yeah, I think it's time for me to wrap this up and move a little bit in a different direction, obviously, to your point about money. There was I had a lot of fear, because the type of work that I want to create, I didn't see the direct money link, right? Like it's different when you're creating programs or products or having clients. Like that's a very clear exchange of product or service for money, and the type of stuff that I wanted to do even the podcast, you know, the type of writing that I really love, there isn't that clear link? And that's one of the reasons that I took a sabbatical. And even at that time, I wrote pretty publicly about, you know, the reason that I'm able to do this is because I mean, with all of my magic privilege, beans as Javi Brooks, one of my favorite bloggers says, like, I have plenty of magic privilege means my partner makes enough money, that it's fine if I don't make money for some months. And I know that's not everyone's position. But I wanted to be really upfront about that when I was taking the sabbatical. Because I didn't want anyone to look at my situation and say, you know, what magic secrets she had that I don't have, you know, it wasn't a secret, you know. And so I decided to take basically to take some time off for making money and decide what's next. And even now, in this current iteration that I'm starting to build the type of work that I want to do, it hasn't morphed into something that does more than a little better than breakeven at this point. And I'm in kind of an interesting, I don't know, conundrum isn't the right word. But I'm kind of at a fork in the road of deciding, do I want it to like, Do I want this to be a hobby, and just kind of a side project, you know, making art and let's say, for lack of a better word, that I'm not going to make into a business. And that's a totally fine choice. Like, I think that I don't know, I have a lot of feelings about kind of entrepreneurship, and there's so much greatness there. But I also think that we glorify it a little bit too much that kind of, you know, if you work a nine to five, like, that's the wrong choice, or, you know, every side project has to be monetized. And I got really sucked into that to the point where I couldn't even let myself do anything for fun. Because anytime I had like, Oh, this is a hobby, I enjoy this. Okay, well, how can I turn that into something that could make money and I was honestly miserable. And so for me, I don't really know like, what's going to happen right now, again, like, we are in the situation where I don't have to be pulling in a lot of money, which is great. And I know that that's not everyone's story. And I know, this won't be my situation forever. But I haven't yet decided if I'm going to try to grow this into something that's more than kind of a break even self detain self sustaining situation, or not. And that might mean, getting a job, it might mean doing something else part time, I don't really know. I'm lucky that I have the space to kind of figure that out. But yeah, that's another thing. I certainly wouldn't want anyone to look at what I'm doing and think there's some magical way, you know, that I'm making$100,000 from doing this, and I'm certainly not so thanks for sharing that. I

Kathleen Shannon: 29:50

think that um, I think it's really interesting that you censored yourself in your coaching practice. And again, I'm with you on feeling like maybe that was the right choice. And I'm curious how I'm curious if a lot of creatives feel like there is a sort of censorship that comes into place whenever money is being exchanged. So for example, I've been listening to your podcast and I know that you have a different sponsor each season. So I'm curious if even having sponsors ever makes you feel like censoring yourself at all.

Nicole Antoinette: 30:24

censorship No. So and I mean, like I said, the podcast is in kind of the baby seasons, the first couple seasons, I didn't have a sponsor, the third and fourth seasons I did. And that was a very easy decision to make because they're basically products and services that I actually use and love for real in my everyday life, right. So season four, the season that came On April 1, I partnered with this company called picky bars. They're these totally delicious real food energy bars that are the companies based here in Bend. And I'm friends with the owners of the company. Like it's something that I feel, not only. It's not that I feel neutral about promoting it, like, I'm totally stoked, like, I love them. I eat these things basically every day, and I want them to do really well. The issue that has come up since then is that was, you know, such a fun, natural, organic, successful partnership for me. And I'm about to at the time of this recording head into recording season five, and I realized, hmm, there really aren't any other brands, maybe one or two that I feel that way about. And for me, and that kind of called into question. Okay, what are you trying to do here? Because of course, sponsorship ads, like it pays the bills, right? But it really made me kind of go back to Okay, Nicole, what's your vision here? Because my like, if I go back to originally, like my vision, was to have these really honest conversations that weren't directed by any kind of agenda, you know, which, as soon as someone else is paying for something that does potentially get in the way. And, you know, I had to clarify that my vision for this is really to have a self supporting community, this like a collective group of people who also want to live in a world where we have more honest conversations, and when we all feel less alone. And in order to do that, I actually don't know that sponsorship, going forward is going to be the right fit for me, just because there aren't that many companies that I like, want to stand on my soapbox for. Because I don't feel personally like within the vein of what I'm doing great about promoting something that I don't use on a daily basis. And so again, you know, I something that I started experimenting with a couple months ago was Patreon. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that. So basically, for anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's basically a way for creatives of any kind, to have their community sort of fund what they're doing. So you set up essentially, like a pledge system. So you know, someone can say, I'll pledge, you know, $2 for every podcast episode, or every season release, or that kind of thing. And, you know, you can set up different reward systems. So the way that I've set it up, because my podcast releases on a seasonal basis, so it's a full eight episode season, every other month. So there's different so basically, people who pledge $8 or more for the season, they get bonus content during the in between month, so they're extra interviews, just like other audio content that I'm creating, that's not getting shared publicly. So I'm kind of starting to pivot into thinking that that really might be the way to go for me to make this like a community of people that really self support these types of conversations. And so there's some ideas that I'm toying with of essentially higher level rewards for lack of a better word to use for people but I don't know so yeah, I mean, you definitely raise an interesting question for whatever reason it doesn't feel super great to me the sponsorship model unless it was a company you know, like picky bars that I am really aligned with but again, it takes a lot of time and you know, I pay someone to do my audio editing and he's fantastic and that type of stuff. It's you know, the money doesn't grow on trees. So it needs to at least be a self supporting endeavor. You know, I don't want this to be a really expensive hobby podcast. So yeah, I at least want to get it to the point where whatever path I choose to do that it at least supports itself and then you know, kind of see from there if there's kind of other things that I want to grow into.

Emily Thompson: 34:05

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Nicole Antoinette: 35:33

Yeah, that's a great question. I think that I'm in the process right now of answering that question. So it's not like I can say well, first estimate in five years this you know, like that's, that's not really the way that my brain works. Really all Have is kind of that overarching vision of, you know, bringing together people that really find value in these types of conversations that are in a lot of ways, like seemingly meaningless. So like using my podcast as an example. It's not a topic specific show, right? Like, it's not something where they're going to learn, you know, these five things about nutrition, not that there's anything wrong with that there's some great podcasts that I listened to, that are all about kind of like health and fitness and nutrition and that type of stuff. But because they're, they're long, you know, the episodes are like two hours each. And they're so wide ranging. And it's really just, let's talk about stuff. And you know, whether that's fears or regrets, or how someone started their business, or you know, how they went on this five month hike, or it's really just like real conversations. And so what I'm interested in is kind of bringing together people that believe that there's value in that even if it's not always easy to see on the surface, what the value is, because it's really hard to place like a price tag on those like me two moments, like I said before, but there have been times where I've read or listened to a podcast or, you know, read an article or a blog post that someone wrote or a book. And I mean, you know, that feeling when you read something, and you're like, I want to send this to every single person that I know, right? Like, there's so much truth in this, it makes me feel less alone. I feel not crazy. I like that feeling that I have gotten as a consumer of other people's art and other people's stuff. Like I want to participate in that. And I think that it's hard sometimes. Because how do you put a tangible value amount on that type of thing? Like, how much do you charge to feel less alone? Right like that there? It's like an interesting question. So if I kind of project forward into my vision, I would actually love to take this, or to expand it into offline, I have this dream of doing a real talk radio road trip that goes through, you know, a bunch of different cities, where there live events, where it is just kind of like a real talk powwow. You know, maybe I'll share some stories or do some kind of good questions like icebreaker a community type things, but to just basically, you know, let's say it were to go to Seattle, and you know, bring together a small group of people that they all live there. And the fact that they're coming to this event, means that they probably share these values, we can spend like two or three awesome hours together kind of part meetup apart, workshop type of situation. And then when I leave, they've all made these connections of people who live in their same city that share at least like this similar desire for kind of honesty, and like living our messy lives out loud, because I think that there's a lot of that going on online, which is great. But there's really no substitute for in person connection. And I have had such a so many rich relationships that have started online that you know, then when they move offline, pretty much all of my best friends I at some point met from the internet. And so I see there being like a potential future for that. If I'm looking at the vision, which I don't know, that's not like a business model answer necessarily. But I want to make this more than me speaking to people kind of like a one to many type of thing. I really want this to be a community where the other people who are kind of believers in this real talk revolution, let's say can speak to and interact with each other, if that makes sense.

Kathleen Shannon: 38:54

It makes total sense, Emily, and I actually accidentally created a community like that offline whenever we started our being boss vacations. So we were like, hey, let's go to New Orleans together and have a vacation. And hey, how about we invite some of our listeners, and 75 other bosses showed up, and we just wrapped up our vacation. And that was in New Orleans last October. And then we just wrapped up our vacation in Miami last week, actually. And more and more, I'm realizing that connections and relationships are everything. It is the meaning of life and forgetting about business model. And I mean, of course that stuff is so important because we have to pay our bills, and this is the world that we live in. But if you strip all of that stuff away, whenever it comes down to it, the energy that you get from conversations and from friendships, and just like you said those moments where you know that you're not alone. It's everything. It's truly magic. I love it so much.

Nicole Antoinette: 39:56

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I something that I used to tell clients all the time that I tell myself is, you know, this idea this kind of sounds negative, but isn't like you're not that special. And it's like the best relief ever to be like, Oh, you're not the only one who you know, is worried about whether or not people will be disappointed or that wants to be liked. And you know that what like, all of these things, all of our fears like it's so cute that we think we're the only ones you know, I'm the only one who's ever felt imposter syndrome you know, in my work No, that's literally how everyone feels. So like just starting to open up the dialogue of this kind of stuff. I feel like and of course it can happen online but exactly like you said, like sharing space with someone in person. I don't know. Like there's something really really special about that I I started this event. This is kind of going back into my quote old life but I started an event in 2009 called blog. In Sin City, which was a meetup in Vegas that ran for five years, that was aimed at personal bloggers, because a lot of kind of when I started blogging, the events, and the conferences and stuff that I saw were topic specific, you know, there was stuff for food bloggers, and there was stuff for people who, you know, were making a business out of it. But there wasn't an event for people who were really just using the internet for fun and as an expression of them in order to get them together. And it was this incredible event that brought people from all over the country, you know, kind of all over the world to Vegas for a long weekend, every year to just basically form friendships. So like, I have that kind of in my history between that and running camp, like I, I love kind of being the person who creates and hold space in which other people can have a really wonderful experience that it's not really about me, but I like facilitating that type of experience for other people. And I see there being kind of down the line, a way to do that with this new, you know, not Let's all go to Vegas and get super drunk, which was my old life, you know that. But there is something there about, like, I like that idea of kind of creating the safe, fun welcoming space for people to come and just be who they are. And to sit together and be like, awesome, none of us have any wisdom, like no one's in charge here. There's no magic answers, and no one has their shit together. And that's awesome. You know, so

Kathleen Shannon: 42:05

you know, I love the online world. And I'm never going to bash I mean, at least I shouldn't say never. But I don't want to bash social media, I don't believe that it's evil, or that people are just sharing the highlight reels because at least the people I'm surrounding myself with in social media are all very real, and sharing all the complexities of who they are as a human being. But I wonder with, with the Internet, and where it's going, and with the upswing of it, if there is going to be kind of a backlash where there is this, where we do start to crave in person interactions more and more, I see so much stuff going. And maybe that's just the world that I've surrounded myself in things going from brick and mortar to online business. But I wonder if there's going to be like kind of a backswing into real life, things that you can touch and hold and see and smell and use all your senses with? What do you guys think about that?

Nicole Antoinette: 43:02

Yeah, I mean, is, I definitely agree with you. I feel like I feel like that's already happening. Because, you know, and I agree with you, I'm not one to kind of bash the internet and social media, like I said, everyone who's important to me, basically, except for like, maybe one or two people I met through the internet. So like, I'm very grateful for everything that it has given me. But I think it's just everything is a piece of the puzzle, that if my entire of all of my relationships, and all of my business, and all of everything is happening online, I'm super lonely. And believe me, I've been there, like I've been in that place. And on the other side, if my entire world is limited to the six people that live within easy driving distance, that also isn't necessarily quite as fulfilling as I want. Because the great thing about the internet is that you're able to form relationships and be exposed to ideas that maybe aren't held by the six people that live around you. Right. So there's definitely a benefit to not having those geographic boundaries. But I think we need both like I that's why I like the internet as like a paving the way for them, those people to come together offline. And it can of course, work the other way as well. But, you know, I think I know, I it's it's even in terms of business model, like, you know, when you were asking that before, part of my question to was do I want to continue to create like e courses or that type of stuff, because again, like, just like social media, I think there's nothing inherently good or bad about any of these things. They're all neutral. It's all like our relationship to them. But I started to feel even as a consumer that like that market was so super saturated. And I noticed myself like falling into the pattern of, you know, I had I had this folder on my desktop where I had downloaded, you know, the 50 or 60. ebooks or courses are things that I've purchased, or someone's free bonus that like, I'm going to get to quote sometime, no, not all it does is sit on my desktop and like make me feel guilty for the fact that I'm not doing it. And so part of the questioning process for me of the world that I want to live in, do I want to contribute to that? I don't know. But like these types of questions, there is something to me that's if I as a consumer, I'm really craving like powerful in person connections, slowing down, not everything being available at such a fast pace. I don't know maybe that's what you know. So I think that it's kind of a question everyone has to answer for themselves. Like what are you drawn to, like as a consumer and then to kind of create from that space? Yeah, I

Emily Thompson: 45:15

agree with all of those things. I was actually talking to some ladies in Miami this past week about this exact same thing, this idea that, you know, we're all building especially like these online businesses where you know, we live online, we work online, we're sharing on Instagram, we're hanging out on Pinterest, we're doing all of these things connected to tag. And I mean, most are some of us have been in this like 510 years for some of us at this point. And I've seen this pattern of people getting pretty tired of being connected. To the internet, I also see plenty of people who have no desire to put their phone down at all. So I don't know, I doubt it's gonna be like this wide sweeping movement of everyone like letting go of tech. But I do think that there are some of us who, who are missing having some of those offline connections. I mean, the vacations that we do are just like prime example of that. But it's also something that I'm feeling in terms of even how I work. And like, whenever I am working, I am on my computer. And whenever I'm not working, I walk away. Like I couldn't tell you the last time that I just hung out on my computer and browse the internet. I don't even know what that looks like.

Kathleen Shannon: 46:23

And I don't you guys read blogs anymore? I'm curious. No,

Nicole Antoinette: 46:27

either I do. There's I mean, well, there's a couple that I super, super love. And I get them in my inbox.

Kathleen Shannon: 46:34

So yeah, and that's what so I am reading stuff that's coming to my inbox. But I don't have an RSS feed anymore. I still blame like once Google got rid of it. Yes. Feed I was done.

Nicole Antoinette: 46:44

Yeah, that was the same thing for me. So yeah, no, I don't read them that way. But that they're, you know, our small handful of people whose blog posts, I do get to my email, which essentially is like no different than subscribing to someone's email, depending upon how they use their email list. And that's the argument that can be made for me, like, while I'm not blogging anymore, I mean, I still send the series is called notes of grit and grace. And so I every Friday, I basically send what could essentially be considered a blog post, but it's more just like a letter that I'm writing to kind of my people of what's on my mind that week in terms of kind of living with grit and grace, which is my overall kind of like life theme and intention. So I mean, newsletters, blog posts, like it's, it's all right there, just like slightly different versions of I think a lot of times the same thing.

Kathleen Shannon: 47:25

So that I you know, I was wanting to talk about your newsletter. And I love that you share the good stuff and the bad stuff. As you're in it. I know that whenever I first started subscribing to your newsletter, it may have been like your very first email that goes up. But it's one of the things that you stated in it is that you are sharing what you're going through as you're going through it. And I thought that that was so cool, and honestly brave one of my policies for what I share, and I am very much an open book, but I like to process things first, before I share it, especially the harder stuff that I'm going through, I just want to make sure that the stuff that I'm sharing that if someone were to respond negatively, for example, to something that I haven't fully processed that it wouldn't break me. Right. So I'm curious for you, because you are sharing the grit and grace as you're going through it. I'm curious if you have any sort of boundaries around what you will and will not share?

Nicole Antoinette: 48:23

Yeah, I mean, this I love this topic is such a great. And, you know, to your point, I think that, yeah, there's a time and a place to share some things and not others. And it's a very, very personal decision. Like sometimes when I have these conversations with people, I almost feel like they're looking for, you know, what are the golden rules of how much to share or not share. And I don't think that that exists, I think that certain people are more comfortable with different levels of sharing than others. And I also think, you know, kind of back to what we were talking about before, it's a lot easier for me to do that. Because this really isn't a business, you know, so it's not like, like, I can share something that's like really hard, but I'm not then turning around and like trying to get someone to buy something. So and again, of course you can be real while also selling and I know some people who do that, in a way, to me that feels like very organic and wonderful. But so I think that it's a very individual question. Also the question of why am I sharing this. So for me, I find, especially with writing, that the only way that I really understand myself is through writing about something like that's the only way that I know how I really feel, it's the way that I can get to the heart of what's true. And it's hopefully the way that I can get to the heart of what's true without judgment, which is always my goal is just let's just identify what's true, and not make it bad or good or whatever. And so you know, the process of doing that. I for whatever reason, I feel like my life purpose, if we're going to use kind of a cliche phrase, is to heal myself out loud. And I don't know, I for whatever reason that works for me. And you can't do that if you don't do that, right. So like that it doesn't work for me to not write about something for three years, that doesn't really fit that mission for me, in terms of drawing boundaries. In the early days, when I started my blog, really my only boundary was that I wasn't going to write about people that I was dating. And that was more because I didn't want someone to be hesitant to date me for fear of winding up on the internet. And I was also very aware of the fact that I had made this decision to share stories and live my life out loud, but that's my choice. And I it's not my place to make that choice for somebody else. So any boundaries that I still even do have are related to that. I mean, it's a little bit different now, you know, being married, having a constant partner, but if there's ever a time where I'm writing more than just kind of a passing thing, let's say about my husband, he has read it first you know beforehand because that's important to me. You know, I don't want someone you know a best friend or your husband some I bet to be like Wait, what what did you say? don't mean the internet right other than that though i've really never had strict boundaries and you know this idea of to heal myself out loud that requires sharing that's often uncomfortable and you know it's for me it just tends to be more of a gut feeling and even sending out you know one piece of writing a week yes i'm whatever i'm writing about is real and true sometimes it's hard but you can't share all of who you are i mean i could essentially be like live blogging all day long all the time and it still wouldn't encapsulate you know all of who i am so of course there's stuff that happens that doesn't get shared and the choice for me there's a couple of guiding questions you know for when i sit down that's the other thing is i don't write my like weekly notes in advance like it is a friday morning open up what do i want to share today type of thing so there's no editorial calendar there's no because like i need there to be like current moment heat behind it like this is on my mind this is on my heart and it's sometimes what do i feel needs to be said and oftentimes the question is what do i not want to share but i probably should right so like that that and that's those are probably gonna be the opposite questions for other people so for me and then the only other boundaries i don't know if boundaries is the right word but is looking at the intention behind sharing it you know am i sharing this because like i want people to think that i'm awesome right like a very ego way okay that's probably not a good thing for me to share like what's my intention like if my intention is just here's what's true for me right now if you feel the same you're not alone like that for me is like okay yes stamp of approval that can go out into the world but you know right even with social media like i try to be alright nicole like who you trying to be with this like if it's just an honest expression of this is this cake that i just baked and it's delicious and i'm shoving it in my face awesome post if it's i want people to think that my life is you know that kind of stuff doesn't get posted so it's more like a self check for my own ego than it is what am i comfortable or not comfortable sharing online and i

Kathleen Shannon: 52:42

love the idea of just using truth as a guide post you know for what to publish and what not to publish

Nicole Antoinette: 52:49

when especially because that's my if we're gonna say an agenda like this with the things that i'm writing don't need to support the sale of anything and it's not that that couldn't happen but that's takes off a lot of the pressure of this decision making process because i don't have to think is someone going to want to hire me to be their coach based on what i shared here and since that's not in the equation like really the agenda is is this really true and kind of does this need to be shared and does this need to be shared by me yes okay publish

Kathleen Shannon: 53:22

i'm definitely a share out loud live out loud kind of person and even writing about my husband i feel like i could without his review first but what really threw me for a loop in the past couple years is having a kid and that's where i don't even know what my boundaries around that are yet and i'm still kind of working through it but i love that idea of writing as a way to process but i want to bring up something that you were talking about earlier as writing as a way to like organically figure out what it is that you want to do i think that whenever we're naturally sharing the stuff that we're curious about we almost accidentally end up positioning ourselves as experts in that thing so it's like you weren't an expert in running but a little bit later you were having you had a course in running right so this is just me wanting to share with our listeners to start writing about the things that you're interested in and that you're curious about that you don't have to be an expert first to start writing and sharing

Nicole Antoinette: 54:21

absolutely that's i mean i love that the other thing too for me and i don't know if anyone else can relate to this i tend to be like an a very in it i don't think it's a bad thing but a very obsessive person like my brain is a light switch i either like i'm so obsessed with something whether this is like a business idea or a tv show or whatever i'm so obsessed or i don't care at all like there's really no middle ground and the thing that i found challenging with my business because it was such like a personal lifestyle brand that it's you know so great it was so great for me to kind of teach and host this program about running when i was super super obsessed with running but i'm not really anymore and so for me i could never really figure out how to have kind of the sustainability and the longevity of a business when i only want to kind of create things that i'm currently interested in if that makes sense so and i started to feel with my business that i was getting locked into a like a public persona or an identity like nicole's the one who's sober and runs and is vegan or whatever and i felt for better or worse whether this is true or whether i just projected this onto myself like i felt like i couldn't change they felt like i was really boxed in and last year i went through a period of time where i really i don't know fell out of love with running is the right word but i definitely had some changes happen in my relationship with running and i stopped running for six months and during that period of time It was challenging to continue to run that program. Right. So it's for me that's another piece of this puzzle too, is that it's not like I sat down to start a business that was separate from myself, it was always so much a personal brand. And I was so tied into it, that I could never really find the right balance between, like, my personal life, like I didn't want it, I don't want my source of income to be tied to my, like, personal hobbies, if that makes sense. Like I, I started to feel like, I couldn't stop running and still make money. And that felt really icky to me. So like, Whatever happens kind of with the podcast, or who knows, if I'm gonna start another business or do something else, I want kind of the, the monetization stream to be enough at arm's length from who I am as a person, that if at any day, I decided to make, essentially a big life change, you know, kind of like what I did before, that it wouldn't affect my business.

Kathleen Shannon: 56:42

That's so interesting. Um, and I have, I mean, I think that any of us who have had a personal brand have experienced this, I always talk about how recently I cut off all my hair. And I was almost worried that it would make me an hireable. Yeah, like, because I've been known as this girl with the long blonde dreadlocks. And now I have, you know, very, very short hair, because I had to cut them all off. I mean, I didn't have to, I chose to, and I think I was in that scene. I mean, I know his hair. So that sounds a little more superficial than maybe getting sober or running. But for me, it felt huge. But at the same time, I really love blending who I am with what I do, and finding ways to monetize the stuff that I love. But it does start to get to the point where it can kind of pigeonhole you. But Okay, so here's something I want to ask you about. And Emily and I were talking about this just this morning, how there are these kinds of lols that happen in business, but probably also in blogging, and I come from a background of personal blogging also, where once it became a business, I found that I was hustling so hard in business, that writing about business is the only thing I had anymore. And so this is why this four week hike of yours really piques my interest. I also love hiking, I feel like part of what really launched my whole career working for myself as a hike up to Mount Everest base camp. And I feel like they're these things where you have to almost take the risk or the challenge or the leap to go live life so that you can then write about it. And not not in a way that's like, Oh, I need to go do this thing, just so I have content to write about, but that there are these kinds of waves that we have to write out of hustling, and then of living. So I would love to hear more about that. Like, do you ever feel like you're living the work so much that you don't have anything to write about anymore? Other than the work itself? Is this part of like, maybe why you're taking this four week hike? Tell me more about that?

Nicole Antoinette: 58:40

Yeah, no, I mean, that's, that's such a great point. And, to your point about lols. I also think, and this, what I'm about to say like this is the truth that I don't want to be true. But the truth is that there are seasons for everything, right. And like this is kind of what I mean, when I say that we're not robots. And yet we have these like productivity expectations of ourselves, you know, we should be able to put out the same mat every day. And I think about this with you know, with fitness or running to like you should be able to perform at a high level every day, I had these crazy expectations for myself. And it took really understanding that there are seasons for things in order to create wonderful work in whatever kind of medium or genre you can't be creating all the time, or I think most people can't be creating all the time. It's the same thing with like farming, right, like the land hesta, lie fallow, or whatever, you know, like it did, it's there are periods of time for kind of like letting ideas percolate. There's phases of time for research, there's phases of time for doing that, like really hardcore business, hustle and like think all of these things play into something that is more sustainable. And I don't want that to be true. Like, I want it to be true that I can just push myself to max level all the time, and like, I'm going to be totally fine. But, yes, I mean, that the hike thing, I don't know, I see it as pretty separate from anything that I'm doing kind of business wise, it's not like I'm going on this trip so as to figure out what's next. I think that will maybe be an inevitable consequence. I don't think that you can do something completely new. And I'm completely new to the world of, you know, backpacking, this kind of stuff. I don't think I could do this and not be changed by it somehow. So who knows? Like maybe we can talk again after that. And we'll see what what came out of it for me. But yeah, I do think that if you are creating art, however you want to define that, you know, if we're going to use writing as an example, you have to be kind of filling up your inspiration tank somehow. And so one of the reasons One of the things that I'm actually most excited about about this trip is keeping a daily trail journal like essentially going back to like a blogging format. I don't know how I'm going to do that if it'll just be a section of my existing But I'm super excited about that to write about it. So that's not why I'm doing it. But yeah, I agree with you that sometimes we can get so stuck in like the day to day tactical parts of our business or whatever it is that we're creating, that we don't leave room for these other things that again, are more intangible, but that can be really impactful. And I think, again, a lot of this conversation, I think, is based in a lot of privilege, right? Like this, this specific thing, being like the fact that I can take four weeks out of my life, like that's, that's incredible, right? Like, that's not something growing up that like my parents would have been able to do or anything like that. So, you know, I think there's a little bit of like a grain of salt with this, like, I could see someone listening and rolling their eyes and saying, well, that's great. But you know, I have three kids, my husband, and I don't have kids, we're choosing not to have kids, right? Like, we've made some pretty intentional lifestyle choices that allow for more freedom, more disposable income, like that type of stuff. So I think it's, it doesn't have to be a four week backpacking trip or nothing. But I do think that there are ways even on a much smaller scale to, like, leave some more space for spontaneity, and like pushing yourself and just like putting yourself in situations that are unfamiliar, because that's how you learn and grow like we the other truth that I don't want to be true is, we don't learn when we're comfortable. Like we learn through discomfort, like discomfort sucks. So obviously, I don't want that to be true. But it is, like all the growth that I've gone through has at one point been very uncomfortable.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:02:13

Totally. And, and you know, I don't know, the whole, like, feeling bad about being privileged. I've had to process through a lot of that, like, literally go to therapy, because once I had a baby, I was struggling with things like depression and like I have it so good. Why am I sad kind of stuff. And so I don't know, I, I see where you're coming from there. But I just don't want it to be too much of a concern, because this is your experience, and it is your choices that have gotten you there. And of course, there's like a certain amount of privilege, but um,

Nicole Antoinette: 1:02:46

yeah, no, I mean, just one more thing on that. I, I certainly don't mean to sound like, Oh, I feel bad. I feel guilty. And I've had to work through that as well. Really, we all had our own things. It's more that I think it's an important part of the conversation because one of the things that I'm the most turned off by if we're talking about online business, or you know, people who are, you know, really popular on Instagram or whatever. When I look at someone's, let's say, lifestyle, that's maybe it's someone who's like traveling all the time, and I'm like, okay, but how do you make that happen? Like, even the very practical question that you asked about, okay, well, where's the money coming from? Like, I think that I much I would love for any of those people. They don't owe me anything. Of course, like, it's their choice, what they reveal, but I love knowing how people make things happen. Like when I took a sabbatical last year, it was really important to me to be able to say, you know, it's not like I my business was so unbelievably successful that I like, have this million dollars saved, it was, here's the reality of how I'm making this happen. The same thing, you know, however, many years ago, in a previous relationship, you know, I was making more money than my partner at the time, he had gone back to school, you know, and so I was paying for more than he was, and it's like, there's no right or wrong, but I think for me with like, my pursuit of honesty, like, I think it's just important to acknowledge that especially like, I see this a lot and kind of, you know, being vegan, and in that space as well. It's like, well, just like buy all 100% like local organic food, like, okay, that's a great to aspire to, but not everyone can do that. So I just think like injecting a little bit of perspective, and I certainly don't mean to sound like I feel guilty or you know, negative, but I just think it's part of the conversation. It's an I don't want anyone to use it as an excuse, because I think I do that as well, like, Oh, well, this person has this thing that I don't have. So excuse excuse excuse, but you know, that kind of thing.

Kathleen Shannon: 1:04:28

Right and and the one thing that I kind of want to say just to wrap this up is not only spending time with like bogged down in the tactical stuff of your business, but even just kind of the obsessing over it and getting out and Emily and I talk about this all the time with travel and getting in nature and just spending time to clear your mind and to not obsess so much on the hustle. But to think about you know, hustling out life to it's even on a recent episode, Emily, after we wrapped up Emily was like, if you need to spend some time getting your life hustle on like, let's, let's take a month off of the podcast. And so just making that point, I think that you are doing like what I'm really seeing rise to the top here out of our conversation is that there is this work life blend, and that maybe you're starting to experiment with somewhat of a separation. And I just think it's really interesting. And thank you so much for just coming on the show and sharing your story. Can you tell our listeners where they can learn more about you where they can sign up for your newsletter where they can listen to your podcast?

Nicole Antoinette: 1:05:32

Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, first of all, thank you. These are all my favorite topics to talk about. I feel like I could talk to you guys for like six hours, right?

Unknown: 1:05:38

Like we got to wrap it up.

Nicole Antoinette: 1:05:41

But yeah, Nicole internet.com is really where everything lives. the real talk radio a season comes out every other month so the next season will be coming out june 1 and yeah i mean everything that they want they can find there i have the small i guess if we're going to talk about monetization or whatever i have a small section of my site called the $4 shop where it's basically a collection of tiny books of stories or workbooks basically it's like my personal toolbox here's everything that's been like life changing and helpful for me and i don't think that those resources should be bank breaking for people so everything in the shop is for dollars and i have a new a new little tiny book that i will be adding probably in the next month called everything i know about change real talk raw truth and blunt encouragement to help you close the gap between what you say you want and what you actually do so that's what i'm working on right now is just kind of digging more into sharing these lessons of change

Kathleen Shannon: 1:06:31

nice i love that i will definitely be checking that out and we will link to everything on your site at being boss club in our show notes thank you so much for joining us it's been so great talking to you nicole

Nicole Antoinette: 1:06:43

thank you guys too

Kathleen Shannon: 1:06:45

thank you for listening to being boss please be sure to visit our website at being boss club where you can find show notes for this episode listen to past episodes and discover more of our content that will help you be boss in work and life did you like this episode please share it with a friend and show us some love by leaving a rating and review on itunes

Emily Thompson: 1:07:05

and if you're looking for a community of bosses to help take your creative business to the next level be sure to check out our exclusive community at being boss clubs slash clubhouse where you get access to our closed and very vibrant slack group monthly q&a calls with kathleen and myself a book club and more cultivate your tribe and find your wolf pack at being boss dot club slash clubhouse do the work be boss and we'll see you next week