Authentically Detroit
Authentically Detroit is the leading podcast in the city for candid conversations, exchanging progressive ideas, and centering resident perspectives on current events.
Hosted by Donna Givens Davidson and Orlando P. Bailey.
Produced by Sarah Johnson and Engineered by Griffin Hutchings.
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Authentically Detroit
Data is Not Neutral: Beyond Redlining with Alex B. Hill
This week, Donna and Orlando sat down with Cartographer and founder of Detroitography, Alex B. Hill to discuss how data-driven neighborhood classification aids in the discrimination of Detroiters.
Detroitography is a project started by Alex to bring together Detroit cartographers and their work. In 2021, he wrote that although over the past decade, redlining has received increased attention in popular press and across academic disciplines, there’s a larger story of spatial racism before and after redlining.
Alex argues that spatial racism is not limited to a single set of maps, but is embedded within institutions. Now, he wants the long history of spatial racism teased out and examined as new data-driven practices have resulted in “orange lining” that generates inequitable opportunities for Detroiters.
To read Alex’s full write up of how spacial racism is impacting Detroit, click here.
FOR HOT TAKES:
DETROIT CHAMPION, FATHER, HUSBAND, DIES AFTER CORONAVIRUS DIAGNOSIS
DETROIT 67 EXHIBIT BECOMES PERMANENT, DEDICATED TO MARLOWE STOUDAMIRE
Up. Next, cartologist and founder of Detroitography, alex Hill, joins Authentically Detroit to discuss the history of redlining and how data-driven neighborhood classification masks spatial racism. But first a tribute to Marlo Stoudemire, honoring the life, legacy and impact of a friend and colleague gone too soon. Keep it locked. Authentically Detroit starts after these messages. Interested in renting space for corporate events, meetings, conferences, social events or resource fairs, the MassDetroit Small Business Hub is a 6,000 square feet space available for members, residents and businesses and organizations. To learn more about rental options at MassDetroit, contact Nicole Perry at nperry at ecn-detroitorg or 313-331-3485.
Speaker 1:Hey y'all, it's Orlando. We just want to let you know that the views and opinions expressed during this podcast episode are those of the co-hosts and guests and not their sponsoring institutions. Now let's and the world Welcome to another episode of Authentically Detroit broadcasting live from Detroit's Eastside at the Stoudemire inside of the Eastside Community Network headquarters. I'm Orlando Bailey and I'm Donna Gibbons-Davidson. Thank you for listening in and supporting our efforts to build a platform of authentic voices for real people in the city of Detroit. We want you to like, rate and subscribe to our podcast on all platforms. We want to thank you all for such a warm reception to the start of our candidate series. We've been doing it since we've been in existence, so stay tuned as we interview all of the candidates looking to replace Mayor Mike Duggan as the 76th mayor of Detroit.
Speaker 1:Today, donna and I are joined by Alex Hill, the founder of Detroitography, to discuss redlining and how data-driven neighborhood classification masks spatial racism. Alex, welcome back to Authentically Detroit. Thank you so much. It's great to be back. It's good to have you back. How's the day finding you? Pretty good. You got started at five o'clock this morning, very early yes, very early.
Speaker 2:It's a little dreary too. I'm looking forward for more sun, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Today was a little dreary too. I'm looking forward for more sun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, today was a little windy and gray. I saw some snow, but you know, were you in the office today? Mm-hmm, what I found out about today was that it was best that I was out in the world.
Speaker 1:I worked from Red Hook today and it was such a vibe I forgot how vibey Red Hook on the Greenway is. Oh yeah, I was going to say which red hook, the one on the Greenway. It was a vibe. I ran into funders and everything, oh good to see you. Can we set up a meeting, donna? Good to see you. Good to see you too. How's this blessed day finding?
Speaker 3:you it's good. It's good, I mean it's the first Harold Donna I said wait a minute, you look nice, thank you, thank you. You know, I don't think I have flat ironed my hair since I lost my mother. Oh, wow this is really a and I didn't connect it. Yeah yeah, I was like oh, you know, I'm going to flat iron my hair, so I had to order some, because I gave all my stuff away.
Speaker 1:It's more stuff. How are you feeling?
Speaker 3:I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 1:I cannot complain. It's been a good day, busy, but you know what else is new? I've really, like I said before, I really have been enjoying the sights from Red Hook over on the Greenway. It's been, you know, a pretty cool space. I'm like I like it in there. I never really sit in there.
Speaker 3:I'm always in and out when you say the Greenway, which one? The Dennis Archer Greenway? Oh yes, right there off Jefferson, next door to Brentless. Yes, well, I know where it is, I just was not sure which Greenway. I was like, is there one about the new sports academy that's coming to the Uniroyal site?
Speaker 1:Oh, I just saw that you just sent it. I'm so excited. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So do they have site control?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, I think the city has site control. I think the city has control over the site and if they're able to attract a WNBA team to Detroit, this is going to be their practice facility.
Speaker 1:We're going to have the Shock come back. Remember the Detroit Shock were a championship winning women's basketball team.
Speaker 3:That's before. Women's basketball was cool, blew up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now it's cool again. So is this the same site where Jerome Bettis also has some stuff?
Speaker 3:Yes, okay, yes, and you know, it's also the same site where the Riverwalk just opened up its new connector to that site last year. Absolutely beautiful. I hope they can get it done. You know I do too. I hope that remember the delays and everything was always environmental.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And there was something like 99 years of contamination. So, having to remediate all of that and or cap it and reuse that land has been the barrier for anybody trying to do housing. So hopefully there maybe you don't need a basement, a sports facility, different regulations, but it's also possible that they have done enough remediation and they have enough money that they're going to do it right.
Speaker 1:And I see that Pistons owner Tom Gores is a part of the local team of investors who put a bid in on this too.
Speaker 3:I really hope that happens.
Speaker 1:He knows how to get stuff done, even through laborious community benefits processes.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, for a womanist such as myself, having a women's basketball team in Detroit really means a lot. We need to always honor women in all that we do, and we don't always do that.
Speaker 1:You know, I grew up going to girls' basketball games because my sister was a basketball player and she played basketball for Remus Robinson Middle School and she played for the Pal League and played for Martin Luther King Jr Senior High School as well. What a time.
Speaker 3:You know, I grew up when I went to high school Mercy High School where I went to school, we had a championship women's basketball team for girls. And then obviously for girls, since it's an all-girls school. I remember the one time there was a championship game between Mercy and Mumford and I had to try to decide whose side I was on.
Speaker 1:You were part of Murf, murf, murf, murf, murf. Amalgamation of both.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to be silly.
Speaker 1:Okay, she's looking at me like what. I have no idea what he's talking about. Murf, you know what my, my, my older?
Speaker 3:sister went to Mumford for a year and my grandmother used to teach at Montfort and it was in our community and so I felt this kinship with Montfort. Plus, the school was blue. Who else had a blue school right? But Mercy was where. I was in high school and had a couple of friends who played for that team. But you know, when Camille was in high school she ran track and many of her friends on the track team also played basketball.
Speaker 3:So, I went to all of the girls' basketball games. I went to see their championship game. It was great seeing them. You know they were tough and exciting.
Speaker 1:And exciting. It was always exciting.
Speaker 3:And somebody pointed out that, you know, for the NCAA, women's basketball can be so much more exciting because all of their great players play for four years, whereas in men's NCAA basketball.
Speaker 3:A lot of them get drafted after the first year, and so you have excellence at the table, and it's just a reminder, especially in a time such as this. Women can be excellent at many things and happen for some time, and so if it's right on the riverfront, just imagine how much fun that's going to be. That's going to be a blast. Light it up All right More to come.
Speaker 1:It's Marlo Day. Everybody Today marks the five-year anniversary of the death of Marlow Stoudemire, a vibrant man with a huge smile, known for his tireless dedication to Detroit, his kindness and his honesty. He truly saw others and dedicated his life to building Detroit community and creating opportunity for Detroit and Detroiters. The victim of the coronavirus outbreak, he was 43 and is survived by his wife, valencia, and two children. Stoudemire, who was project director of international business strategy at Henry Ford Health System before leaving to found a consultancy, butterfly Effect Detroit, which brought excellence and enthusiasm to his work.
Speaker 1:According to Bob Reine, who is the CEO of Henry Ford Health System, Stoudemire also had worked at the Skillman Foundation and led the Detroit Historical Museum's award-winning Detroit 67 project, along with our good friend Kalisha Davis, commemorating the 50th anniversary of the 1967 uprising. The exhibit earned national and international honors, winning a national medal for museum and library service and sharing second place as a project of influence at the 2019 Best in Heritage Conference, which recognizes best practices in museums and conservation around the globe. He was a graduate of Cass Technical High School, held a bachelor's degree from Wayne State University, a master's from Central Michigan University and attended Harvard's Business School's Young American Leaders Program. Those who knew Marlow said he was committed to restoring Detroit's glory through his various projects and relationships. He was a man of action. While it had been set to close at the end of 2020, detroit 67 perspective exhibit became permanent, dedicated in honor of the Marlo Stoudemire.
Speaker 3:And I wrote a little something that's also going to be posted on ECN's page. On this day five years ago, detroit lost a champion, community builder, collaborator and extraordinary leader in the person of Marlo Stoudemire, the 24th person in the state to pass away from COVID-19. Marlo inspired tens of thousands of Detroiters in commemorating the 1967 rebellion. He catalyzed redevelopment of Mack Avenue on Detroit's East Side and a partnership between Detroit and Grills Point neighborhoods through the opening of Mass Detroit in partnership with East Side Community Network. Merle was a thought leader, an advocate and a believer in the unique talents and gifts of Black Detroiters.
Speaker 3:Like everyone in his circle, we were shocked beyond measure at the sudden loss of this larger-than-life man in our midst, in the prime of his life and at the precipice of greatness beyond our community, by the loss of a husband to Valencia and father to Shelby and Ian, son, brother and friend to many.
Speaker 3:In evaluating the circumstances of his untimely death, we reflected on the social and structural determinants of health and the nine dimensions of wellness. The community where Marla was born, raised and then resided Detroit's East Side was vulnerable on many measures, from environmental health to walkability, social cohesion, access to creativity and fitness resources, and access to quality and continuous health care. These realizations gave birth to the construct of a wellness hub addressing nine dimensions of wellness that soon materialized as the Stoudemire Wellness Hub and the Butterfly Team Lounge, and in the renewal of the Mass Detroit Small Business Hub. Although Marlo has departed this physical realm, his brilliance, his vision and his impact live on through the work now performed in his name. His spirit continues to guide our growth and development as a beautiful hub with over 2,500 members, over 30 classes per week and our newest effort, the design and building out of a nine-acre wellness campus. Today we remember both the impermanence of life and the infinite impact of people like Marlo, who live and lead with love. We honor our friend, our partner and our forever inspiration.
Speaker 1:I said today that people like you, people like me, we would never let Detroit forget this man. We will never let Detroit forget Marlo Stoudemire. I had the opportunity to talk to Valencia today and we laughed on the phone and I'm like where are you? Are you on the island somewhere? She was like I wish. I said that would be great.
Speaker 1:And you know, I asked her the question. I said you know, I'm feeling love and joy today and she was like, absolutely. She was like it's a day of love and it's a day where we love on each other. And she was getting ready to go and hang out with the fam. I don't think she was working today and she was in the best of moods, laughing and joking with me. And I'm really glad that this day has transitioned from a day of immense grief, because it has been for a long time, to a day where we can laugh, to a day where we can joke, to a day where we can remember and a day where we can love on each other. So I send a text to some of my friends. It's like yo, if there are people in your life that you love, make sure they know you love them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because, Marlo was all about showing love.
Speaker 3:He was In 2022, we received this, you know, the check not the actual check, but the display check for our federal award for the Stoudemire Wellness Hub.
Speaker 3:Check for our federal award for the Stoudemire Wellness Hub on March 24th of 2022, exactly two years following the passing of Marlo Stoudemire and three days after I lost my mother, and so the grief I felt that day. I reflected on how much grief I was in as I was standing here trying to be okay, trying to honor what's happening here and also deal with the sudden loss of my mother, to wake up this morning and feel whole again and to realize that time heals in ways that you don't expect. You know I'll always. You know, sometimes I feel like I'm grieving my mother now more than when I first lost her because some of the numbness is wearing off and the reality of the loss sets in, and so sometimes I'm just, you know, stopping my tracks. I can't listen to certain songs. For her memorial, I played the song Way Over Yonder by Carole King, because my mother loved tapestry and the key of the tapestry album, and so we played all the time, and so I was on a plane somewhere.
Speaker 1:That album, first of all, is a classic. It is a classic From cover to cover.
Speaker 3:And Way Over Yonder is a beautiful song. So I'm on the plane listening to music and I put that song on almost fell out the seat. Oh, my goodness, this gets me going, and I say that to say that you can both love and celebrate, honor and still, you know, hold precious memories of loss and it all your feelings just change and shift that you know, wow, this person, we've lost him.
Speaker 3:And look what we're doing. People period. We honor people. We should be honoring people because you know, every day somebody great departs this, you know this realm and they go wherever they go and I want to hold on to them, you know, and then I hope and pray, as I get older and older, that somebody's going to hold on to me, you know, and remember me. And I think that's what we all try to do is we try to leave a legacy. But leaving that kind of legacy at 43 years of age is just amazing.
Speaker 3:I don't think anybody had any idea that this was going to be the last time we saw him. He was supposed to be here at ECN that day and the day he went into the hospital, the day he was diagnosed with pneumonia, he had set up a meeting for us to meet with Nate Wiles, who was then the director of the Knight Foundation in Detroit, and he sent Orlando and myself a text and he said oh guys, I can't make it here. I was diagnosed with pneumonia and this was March 12th. We had no idea what that meant, or at least I had no idea what that meant. I was like pneumonia is a young guy, that's no big deal. You know, walking pneumonia is a thing.
Speaker 3:And so, maybe about seven days later, orlando sends me a text, marlo with crying faces, I'm like what's going on? He said he has COVID, what he has, covid. And then I started to track it and then I realized he was on the vent and I was on the phone with Kim Trent when we found out that he had passed and we cried on that phone for an hour, didn't speak, just cried the shock of it. So I'm glad we can smile today and honor him in ways that he needs to be honored and that there's enough healing to do it, and let's never stop honoring him, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, and that man is still walking around in many of us, donna and myself included, brown, in many of us, donna and myself included, but also in Valencia. Valencia carries such a tremendous amount of strength and even joy when it comes to remembering her husband, and I had the opportunity to hang out with Shelby and Ian after the Teen Hype play the other week and my good Ian, oh my God, looks just like his father.
Speaker 3:So Marlo is here and Shelby looks like her mom.
Speaker 1:It's so funny but you know they are doing well, valencia is doing well and it was really good to just chop it up with her and hear her voice today, my good friend, our relationship crystallized after Marlo passed away. I guess the final thing I want to say is Donna, I think you're spot on about holding all kinds of memories and tears and joy, and all of it in one space. I went back to listen to the episode dedicated to Marlo on Authentically Detroit that we released, and Marlo was a habitual guest on this podcast, and so our producer at the time, jonathan Galloway JG, did his best work and just putting together a bunch of Marlo-isms into one episode where it's just his voice for the entire hour. And so if you guys are feeling nostalgic, if you need to hear his voice, we have it on Wax. Go back and listen to it and with that we're going to be right back with Alex Hill.
Speaker 1:Detroit One Million is a journalism project started by Sam Robinson that centers a generation of Michiganders growing up in a state without a city with one million people. Support the only independent reporter covering the 2025 Detroit mayoral race through the lens of young people. Good journalism costs. Visit DetroitOneMillioncom to support Black independent. Welcome back everyone.
Speaker 1:Alex Hill is the founder and principal of Detroitography, a project he started in an attempt to bring together Detroit photographers and their work. In 2021, he wrote that, although, over the past decade, redlining has received increased attention in popular press and across academic disciplines, there is a larger story of spatial racism before and after redlining. He argues that spatial racism is not limited to a single set of maps, but is embedded within institutions. He wants for the long history of spatial racism teased out and examined as new data driven practices generate an equitable opportunity in cities. Alex, really, really excited to talk to you about this. We know that the renowned Dr Peter Hammer at Wayne State University also does a presentation on spatial racism. My first question to you is tell us a story that hasn't been told.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think we always look to these maps from the Homeowners Loan Corporation as redlining, but redlining practices were already happening within financial institutions and within the FHA, the Federal Housing Administration.
Speaker 1:Insurance companies.
Speaker 2:Insurance companies and I often talk to people and I say do you know about blue lining? And blue lining was happening even before red lining. And it was so the Curtis Publishing Company they're best known for, like the Saturday Evening Post, and they had a whole host of publications. But they mapped out 24, I think, of the largest cities in the US and said their salespeople were not allowed to go into these blue-colored areas and it was because it was largely foreign or African-American folks who were living in those zones. And obviously that's not the first time that people have been either blocked from opportunity or retail or where they could live, based on their race or ethnicity.
Speaker 3:You know it's interesting because we look at data as this pure thing.
Speaker 3:right, right it's somehow skin color is impure, but data is pure. But if you look at things like standardized test scores, academic achievement levels, credit scores, wealth, housing values, there's a correlation between all of those metrics and race. And all of that correlation has to do with all of these historical things that have been done that have contributed to these disparities. It's not like they are inherent, but then what we do is we apply this lens that say, people with good credit are good people and people with bad credit are bad people. People with high test scores are hardworking and people with low test scores are not. People with high homeowner values are good, responsible homeowners and people with low homeowner values are people without.
Speaker 3:And none of this is true, right. The reality is that all of these things are rooted in racism. So we have decided that race can no longer be the factor. We have decided to be colorblind, and what colorblind does is almost makes permanent these disparities, Because if we're unwilling to look at people in their fullness and unwilling to look beyond that. So I think you I appreciate you doing this you know you and I had a conversation about a different type of map that has been used in the city of Detroit and I want you to share some of what we were talking about and your findings. Because I called it orange lining? Because the other thing is you can't use red on maps anymore that separate, but you can use different colors and orange is one of these cool colors. It looks almost red. Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's part of the. You know, we try to look at redlining. We say, oh well, here's the time point and it was done. Then, yeah, and it stopped.
Speaker 3:Right, no. That's when racism ended, though, Alex Right, oh right, yes. And when redlining was made illegal, it was like okay, that's it. No more racism guys. Now everything's fair.
Speaker 2:Right. But you know, when people in Detroit look to redlining I often say you know, you really got to look at urban renewal. Urban renewal projects had some of the most significant racial impacts on the development of the city and have the most kind of, you know, connections to present day development than redlining.
Speaker 1:And I don't think people understand just how violent this practice was and continues to be Right, right.
Speaker 3:So talk about, but I want to talk about this other. Oh yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:So the other through line is this so the reinvestment fund does the it's called market value assessments and they've done them. I want to say some of the earliest were done in Detroit, but they've also done them in other cities like Baltimore and Philadelphia et cetera, but they use this as a way to demonstrate areas of cities that are better investments.
Speaker 3:For the city to invest city resources. Right For HUD to invest its resources. It's not just for private investment. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly Yep, but it's used by both.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Because they make this publicly available. Except, interestingly, the reinvestment fund no longer publishes the public data for Detroit. I don't know why I never got an answer, but in Detroit we see we had these market value assessments. That happened in about 2008, 2009. And then Detroit Future City came up with their framework and they're basically a one-to-one comparison. Basically, all of the areas that are colored orange on the market value assessment are areas in the Detroit Future City plan that are strategically well. In the strategic renewal zones they're set as replace, repurpose or decommission.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so orange is unworthy of investment, right, not red anymore, now it's orange, and that's also playing a significant role in strategic neighborhoods. The 10 strategic neighborhoods are neighborhoods that were able to accomplish a higher level of, you know, value. And so here you have the city government and we went to DC last year and you know I was speaking to some people at HUD and I talked about the fact the federal government was doing that and one of the men who was sitting on the panel was saying well, the cities can't waste their money. I was like hit dogs will holler right, because he was one of the people who was involved in constructing the map in Detroit and now he's at HUD. Investment to places where people have more privilege. It's not better than redlining, it might even be worse because it's invisible. At least redlining people knew what was happening With this. It's sort of like oh, everything's equal, and if this person is doing better than that person.
Speaker 2:It's probably because that person is unequal. So Right yeah, that it's a colorblind way to help people invest better or to rebuild cities, but it's really just perpetuating the same institutions and the same institutional racism that we've experienced for decades.
Speaker 1:What was the impetus for you in particular, to take this up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think for me it was that I just kept seeing people hang their hat on redlining and throw that data variable into their analyses of present-day conditions and you know, it just constantly looked at kind of a single point in time as kind of the crux of everything and I was like whoa you know this is a long story and there are threads that connect. You know, further back than the 1930s and well until today connect.
Speaker 1:You know, further back than the 1930s and well, until today, yeah, and you know, I have conversations with all kinds of people and there is a segment of people that I've talked to before about things like this and they have said well, this is, this was your grandfather's problem. This has no bearing on the opportunity that is presented to you today, really adding a harmful narrative of personal responsibility to Black folks, which irritates me to no end. Can you talk about the reverberating effects up until now, into 2025, of this practice of blue lining, red lining, orange lining and how that shows up in household income and wealth generation and equitable opportunity?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and that's where you know in. I guess COVID is a good example. You know there's a well-known practice of retail redlining, where certain retailers will just not enter a certain community or, in Detroit's case, usually a certain city. There are retailers who won't cross that borderline at all and you know we saw during the Great Recession the problem was reverse redlining, where where-.
Speaker 1:Predatory inclusion Exactly, exactly, keonga Taylor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. So Detroit was specifically targeted for these subprime mortgage products and the ACLU settled a lawsuit with a subsidiary of Morgan Stanley because they identified 6,000 Detroit homeownersers had been targeted because they were black homeowners. Go ahead, I'm sorry. And then the COVID connection here is you know, during well, the vaccine was being distributed, the state of Michigan selected Kroger, cvs and, I believe, rite Aid as their like go-to distribution sites, I believe Rite Aid as their go-to distribution sites. And when you looked at a map of the city, there's all these locations in the metro Detroit area and Detroit has maybe three Because there's no Kroger stores within the city limits.
Speaker 2:And CVS has been closing their doors and it was a stark example of that retail redlining having an even larger effect on health of the population.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'd love to move away from that.
Speaker 3:I had a great conversation with somebody, some folks from the city today about the way we correlate commercial grocery stores with health and wellness, and you know, a lot of times we aren't even looking at fresh foods and vegetables when you're there. And so how do we take, you know, having food sovereignty away from a Kroger, away from a Meijer or another entity? But that means that we have to create and construct different ways of looking at health and wellness that don't depend on the kinds of things that will always disadvantage low-income populations, because they're always going to base their sense of value on money. And you know, we used to have neighborhood grocery stores and before urban renewal, in Black Bottom you had, you know, fish stores. You had so many Black businesses that catered to a community that was embedded in that area and a lot of that went away through integration, through this idea that you know we don't have to just shop where we are, we can go other places, and I think it's time for Through integration, through massacres, through fires, through raising.
Speaker 1:I mean, like you know all of that.
Speaker 3:Well, yes, when I say integration, I shouldn't even use that term. I should say forced relocation.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, because the forced relocation from communities all over the United States of high achieving black communities is a thing right, Whether it's Black Wall Street in Tulsa or whether it's in Roseville, Rosewood, rather, in East St Louis, Illinois, in Detroit and in places big and small. All over the place you had people who came together and created sustainable businesses that were burned to the ground.
Speaker 3:But it is time, I think, for us to take that back up and take the power back from people who use data to drive what we have, because it's just racism in another name. Right? If you can use data to supplant justice, then we're in trouble. And what data never measures is justice? Right? It never says let's see how many of the people living in this community have been subject to these forms of oppression, because you would call that reparations. Right? We're not going to do reparations. Reparations, right, we're not going to do reparations. So the only thing we do is we look at the evidence of the harm we cause and then blame people for being harmed and decide that you no longer qualify for what we receive because you've been harmed. And now, of course, under this new presidential administration, the hatred is more naked and they're taking the gloves off. They're like hey, that's DEI, you are DEI if you're Black in this space. Colin Powell is somehow now DEI. We got to take him off of the recognition, which is insane to me.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, can I ask you this question, even just from a data perspective and all that you study, have you been able to find a time where the United States government wasn't assailing Black people and people of color? No, this is a real question. This is a real question because I don't think. I don't think. I think there are people, there are black people who have made it to the cream of society, who will say that this isn't a thing, that Donna and Orlando are always trying to poke a bear that doesn't exist anymore, that this was the problem of our ancestors. And somebody said on Twitter the other day Rosa Parks was able to see both Shreks. Like this isn't. We aren't removed so far from this struggle. Just so, I guess my question remains the same from all that you've been studying and your background and data, has there ever been a time, and do you think we can see a time, where government, local and national, is not assailing Black people and other people of color?
Speaker 2:I have not ever been able to identify a time. I have not ever been able to identify a time and I don't. Unfortunately, we're in a major systems change era right now, which I don't think is for the better, but we need a major systems change. We operate in white supremacist institutions. That's how they were built.
Speaker 3:You know, the one thing I can say is that this current Trump administration has silenced those fools, right, because they're seeing their heroes taken down from walls. It's like oh, wait a minute. Oh my goodness, how could this be happening to me? We've arrived so far. People are like this is not America. What do you think America is if this is not America? This has always been America. What do you think America is if this is not America? This has always been America. But, like you said, alex, and I really appreciate you saying that the institutions that are being torn apart have never really worked for everybody. You know, hud didn't house homeless people, right, right, the Department of Education did not educate everybody on an equal footing, right, department of Education did not educate everybody on an equal footing, right, all right. And so we have these systems that have always failed. But the collapse of these systems is scary and the question is you know, this is me, all right, I was in.
Speaker 1:That's such a word, though. Before you let's, can we park there for a minute? Donna Givis-Davidson, these systems you said these systems haven't always worked on our behalf, but the collapse of these systems are also scary, right, and so I think a lot of justice-oriented folks are holding two things in one hand, and that is what, if we just do nothing and let them destroy these systems? We just do nothing and let these, let them destroy these systems. But they're also holding this in the other hand. In the meantime, how much harm would the destruction of these systems cause the communities that we serve, love and care for?
Speaker 3:I mean those are really important questions. I think I've heard many people say well, our ancestors survived worse than this, and true, they did, but our ancestors went to that local fish shop in Black Bottom right. Our ancestors had the black hospital down the street from them. Our ancestors had things in Detroit not everywhere that have been dismantled, and so the question is do we have enough infrastructure in our communities to sustain this and if not, what are we going to rebuild? But I think the loss of the systems. You know everything that I've been. You know we've been in this fight for environmental justice, not forever at ECM, but definitely for the past eight, nine, ten years, right yeah, the past decade for sure.
Speaker 3:And so you know, here's the fight. You're fighting the EPA, You're fighting EGLE and you're saying you're not doing enough. You know there's disproportional impact and all of these kinds of things, and all of a sudden there's no EPA to fight anymore and there's no EGLE to fight anymore. So now, what do we do? We move away from the pretense that the fight is going to really change things substantively in our community around air quality, and it's not right, because the way we're currently structured, letting it fall apart, is something that we can't stop. You can get in the way of a fast moving train and you will be run over. So the question is what do we do? I don't think that protest is our only thing to do.
Speaker 1:Something that somebody reminded me of was I think a lot of people agree with that, because there's this sentiment on the internet like black people right now, we Y'all trying to make us act up and hit the streets and we just you know, and that bothers me, I'll be honest with you that sentiment bothers me. Yeah, that's funny to me.
Speaker 3:It's the kind of thing that privileged people say.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep.
Speaker 3:I think that the reality is we have to do something, but the something we have to do is not necessarily protest. If we do nothing, some of us might be okay.
Speaker 1:But our cousins won't be, a lot of us won't, and our neighbors won't be.
Speaker 3:And so to what extent do we have to move away from the unhealthy Western construct of individualism? And go back to collective impact and go back to seeing the connection between us as long as we hold on to individually. My family's okay, my kids are okay. I got my home great.
Speaker 1:That's really unhealthy to me and I refuse to and it's not intrinsic to who we are as black people. It doesn't make me feel powerful and a part of the diaspora, yeah.
Speaker 3:I've had dear friends say things like that and they pride themselves on being part of the 92%, and as a black woman, I can say I'm 92% because 92% of black women who voted voted for Kamala Harris. Right, but the reality is that 92% is an exaggeration because there's a whole lot of people who didn't vote, a whole lot of people who couldn't vote and a whole lot of people who did not feel like their needs were going to be met even if they did vote. And so this self-righteousness, you know, is unhealthy. I think that we should all ask ourselves how do we get here and what can we do better to avoid staying here? That's where I am, but I want to go also back to this comment about these institutions, and I was going to make a point.
Speaker 3:I'm trying to think, if I can remember what the point was, because I think it's important as well. But why don't we ask you some questions about what you've seen in terms of the data? Is there like a breakdown of voting patterns in these neighborhoods based on these maps? Like, do people in orange neighborhoods vote as frequently as people in green neighborhoods? And if there isn't one, you know, as a friend, I always ask you, alice, can you produce a map for me, because I think we really should take a look at how these realities impact. You know the vote.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and whenever anyone asks me if there's a map for something, I say, well, if there's not, I'll make it. So I don't know what those voting patents look like, but we can definitely put the data together and see what it looks like.
Speaker 3:And then we'll have you back on to talk about that, because I think it's important for us to correlate voting, I think, with privilege. I think the most privileged people in society vote the most often. The most underprivileged people feel like this is not my fight, you know, I mean we can look at turnout in the city of Detroit.
Speaker 1:Now that's data that we have. We can look at turnout in the city of Detroit based on neighborhood and zip code and really easily tease out that zip codes that are doing very well economically are turning out in numbers that are not the same for zip codes that are not doing as well economically and systematically. And that's a part of the electoral process in the city of Detroit that I think a lot of politicians running for office take for granted, because they they don't have to speak to the entire city Right, they have to satisfy their needs Almost always. That is ignorant or ignoring poor folks, folks who are contending on the margins and folks who don't have access to resources, or these folks who are running for office, and that is a practice that I hope we can figure out how to bust up. I mean, it's data that is used, but it's also data that should be really really made public to hold these people who are running for office accountable. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I think so. I think that you know. I bet you, 100% of people in Indian Village voted. Maybe it's only 98%, but when your interests are at stake and you perceive your interests, it's not even how you vote, it it's just the fact that we do. It's the fact that we do believe government is on our side. Government is on your side. If government is making social policy on your behalf and that makes you what A customer of government You're, somebody who government intentionally serves, and then if you're a person who government either seeks to contain or ignore, then you are really a subject. How do we restore citizenship rights and this belief that I am a citizen of Detroit? And I know I'm a citizen because the government responds to me? So a quick question $600 million overtaxed Detroiters? If gross pointers were overtaxed by $6 million, what is the likelihood?
Speaker 1:that they would not be demanding repayment reimbursement.
Speaker 3:You overtax me. What is the likelihood that the city manager or mayor girls point would be like you know what? That happened in the past. That's over with. It's not fair to the people who didn't get overtaxed. They have to pay you back. It's, it's just it. These things only happen in places where people, their rights and their needs are suppressed. And these maps, this mapping is like this concretization of all of these concepts. Right, Because the maps. Really, in a sense, if you're in the orange space, what does that say about your value to the city?
Speaker 2:Right, and when they made those maps that was 137,000 people.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So like, if you have no value to the city, should you have to pay taxes, or can you pay lower taxes? If I'm not going to fix sidewalks in your neighborhood, should you have to pay the same taxes as somebody whose sidewalks get fixed?
Speaker 2:Oh, you're going to pay Right.
Speaker 3:It's not as though you have a graduate. Remember the concept of a graduate income? As though you have a graduate. Remember the concept of graduated income tax. We have a flat tax in Michigan. Imagine a graduated property tax. Well, if you're paying more in property tax and you're worth more, you're going to get more services. Well, that makes sense, right? It's still not right, but at least it makes some kind of sense. There's no logic to poor people paying a higher percentage of their income because the tax rate is flat and getting fewer services. Right, yeah, you get some performance tax If the government performs, you pay.
Speaker 1:I want to ask you this question about data that the chambers of power ignores right power ignores right. We just talked about turnout data. That already exists and we could really tell where folks are coming from when they vote. But are there also other data sets that have been presented that get no traction? I'm thinking about the Kerner Commission report like that cited very specific incidents and data economic inequity, social unrest that pointed really bravely at the time to root causes that gave the Johnson administration really a layout, you know, to address some of those root causes and that report was shelved right.
Speaker 3:Well, parts of it were shelved.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:The part that came out was that Black women were the problem. Strong Black dominating Black women and weak Black men, and so that's the part we want to highlight is.
Speaker 1:Have you ever dreamed of being on the airwaves? Well, the Authentically Detroit Podcast Network is here to make those dreams come true. Formerly known as the Deep Network and located inside the Stoudemire, the Authentically Detroit Podcast Network offers studio space and production staff. To help get your idea off of the ground, just visit authenticallydetcom and send a request through the contact page. And so how do we get power to pay attention?
Speaker 2:Yeah, with data, that's always the difficult part too, because all data is produced Like there's no such thing as raw data. All data has politics in it. Same way that every map has politics in it, so every map that I'm making has you know it's reflecting my views, my biases, whatever. And the same is true for the data behind those maps too. And very often, you know, places of power don't want to see the data on XYZ, so they don't capture it on purpose. And so I mean, I think part of it is you know, we need to find good ways to capture.
Speaker 3:I want to go break down what you were saying, though, because I think that's really important. So a test score is data, but who designed the test? What is the test measuring? Is the test accurate? Is the test racially biased? Is it biased based on income and privilege? All of those things go into it. So the score doesn't mean that somebody is smarter or harder working or knows more. It simply means that this person performs better on this test created by people who are more like them than like the people who do poorly on those tests. And the test was created for one reason and became something else. And the test was created for one reason and became something else.
Speaker 3:A credit score does not mean you pay your rent on time, you pay your bills, you go to the store, you buy your groceries and you use coupons and you are using well, within the construct of performance metrics that are designed by companies that benefit from having you do certain things like taking out a credit card is evidence of responsibility. Why? Because that's what they say. And in the city of Detroit, with the data measures, when we look at the bond rating, they're not measuring is the city performing well? They're not saying hey, are people being treated like they should be, as outlined in the city charter. No, they're saying, are test scores. I mean, are property values going up? Is poverty going down? Are there new jobs coming to the community?
Speaker 3:And when all those things are true, even when the truth of those things is evidence of injustice, it gets seen as good. You can increase property values by pushing poor people out or gentrifying a community. You can increase average incomes by pushing poor people out and attracting wealthier people in, and you can attract at new jobs by creating opportunities for people who live outside the city to come inside the city and work. There's no measure of equity, even what is it? The ESG, what is that? The environment, sustainability and gee, I don't remember what. The governance? Even those measures do not really measure those things and it seems like what gets measured because measures themselves, I don't think, are biased. It's just we choose to measure certain things based on our bias.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 3:Like you, either make $10,000 or you don't, but how we interpret that $10,000 becomes the problem and it feels like people in the city of Detroit have bought into some really distorted thinking around these data points. And when's the State of the City Tomorrow?
Speaker 1:Tuesday.
Speaker 3:I don't get invited anymore. It's cool because I was just watching it on TV. But when the State of the City comes out, you see what happened. Last week they came out with this metric that Detroiters have gained an average of 700 billion whatever the number is in housing values in the past, however many years. And that's what you get to Moody's and Standard Poor's. Now we're trying to sell homes in a neighborhood where it looks like the housing values might be $88,000. And I'm just trying to figure out what's the starting point for these billions of dollars, because for a newly renovated home, $88,000 is the magic number and so it feels like it's still. You know, you have the $88,000 home on the east side and you have the milliondollar home in Corktown and when you average that out it ends up somewhere around what $500,000 each. But the reality is kind of concealed with that and I think that's maybe me trying to synthesize what you're saying or just break down what you were saying about data being political. Do you want to speak on that a little bit more, though?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the you know. When you think about authoritative data sets, things that come in from city government, those are produced in the same way that you know if ECN's doing a survey of neighbors on the east side. But you know the way, the narrative is built is where those differences in looking at the data come to light.
Speaker 3:They get U of M to produce those studies, though.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:They get U of M, somebody from the social research at U of M to do it. And it's like and I asked somebody who produced one of those studies this makes no sense. How did you do it? Well, why didn't you measure this? Oh, we didn't have time to measure that. Well, what researcher produces reports without taking the time to make sure they're accurate? That shouldn't even be, you know, sanctioned by the university. But then somebody said well, you know, they're getting pressure from the city to do this and that's the reason they do it. They expedite it. So this is not real data, but it's produced by people who seem to have much better credentials than ECN. And that's what makes it scary, because you put your stamp of U of M on it and all of a sudden this becomes authoritative.
Speaker 1:There's a legitimacy there. Yeah, you know, alex, I want to ask you a personal question, like I'm sitting here. We've known you for years. We love you, thank you. I mean, you belong socially in one of the most privileged groups in America. You don't have to care about this. You don't have to stand on your soapbox and talk about this stuff. Why, where did it come from?
Speaker 2:Why do you feel like?
Speaker 1:you have to talk about it.
Speaker 2:That's a great, deep question. I don't know, but I do feel a responsibility and you know, I always say I grew up in a white suburb of Flint. It was literally called Grand Blank, Great White.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Thank you, it is Great White.
Speaker 2:But you know, my family, my grandparents, they were all in Flint so I was constantly kind of going back and forth over this border of. You know, my family, my grandparents, they were all in Flint so I was constantly kind of going back and forth over this border of you know.
Speaker 2:Flint wasn't really great when I was growing up. I was always, you know, driving through blighted neighborhoods and then going home and everything was fine. So I don't know, I guess I kind of grew up understanding this leap between different worlds and, you know, I really dove into trying to understand why.
Speaker 3:So are you an outlier in your family, or is this kind of your family ethic?
Speaker 2:I'd say it fits with my family's ethic. For sure I often think to my grandfather. Actually grew up in Detroit. His father was the first property manager for the Penebscot building, which was right in the middle of the Great Depression. And I always think back to he. On his street in Flint he had a black neighbor and he was always, always, always so friendly to his neighbors, always kind, and you know, I never really realized how much of an anomaly that may have been that I got to grow up and see my grandparents interacting in.
Speaker 2:I guess what I assume had to have been an integrated neighborhood by the time that I would be visiting in Flint. So yeah, and I guess for me it really does just come back to responsibility. I benefit so greatly from the systems that exist in our world and it doesn't take that much off of me to be able to stand up every once in a while and say this is wrong, or there's white supremacist systems, or the data is showing the wrong things, because at the end of the day I'll be fine because I'm still benefiting from these systems.
Speaker 3:But you know what? I think we should always honor people who are allies, and I think that we are not going to get out of this without building a whole lot of allies in this world.
Speaker 1:Your liberation is tied to mine all the time, exactly.
Speaker 3:And you know, I think there's what's her name, the, the. Explain it, Don't let me help Intergenerational trauma, the post-traumatic slavery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, disorder.
Speaker 3:Disorder what's? Her name I can't think of her name.
Speaker 1:Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 3:But what she speaks about is that racism and the history of slavery.
Speaker 1:Joy.
Speaker 3:Joy DeGruy. Yeah, the history of slavery. Thank you, orlando. The history of slavery is traumatizing, not just to the black people who are enslaved, but to the children of the people who enslaved and the descendants, the descendants that somehow the dehumanization hits on both sides and we have to decide to not dehumanize, we have to decide to love.
Speaker 3:And I see so much dehumanization going on right now, even a self-protective anger, and I think when we get to the point of understanding that you know, I mean we honored Myron Stoudemire and he was the 24th person in the state of Michigan to pass away from COVID he was a black man while he was living and we all end up in the same place. You know what I mean. It's like, well, maybe we don't go to the same place, but you know what I mean Like we all, we're all mortal and we share that. And when we understand that as mortals we can live differently, then we can have more joy. I think that we um, there's peace, there's peace. I would imagine it brings you to know I'm doing something and even to quote marlo.
Speaker 1:I remember marlo was on this panel at the detroit policy conference and talking about uneven growth within 139 square miles of the city and he was very vocal about that Right. And a white person, I think a white guy, raised his hand and asked him a question, donna, I remember this so vividly and he was like what can I do as a white man? And Marlo said come along with me and roll up your sleeves. He was like I don't need your tears.
Speaker 1:I don't even need your empathy. I need your hands, and what you've been doing is using your hands right and using your brainpower and your expertise to fuel justice for communities who need it most. And I want to tell you thank you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, listen, like I said, every time I need a map, I was like hey, alex, can you get me a map that helps to what is it to reconcile the data from redlining to this MVA data? And he got me the map and there's some interesting findings that we didn't have a chance to talk about.
Speaker 1:Alex makes like digestible maps for everybody. Everybody's able to use it.
Speaker 3:But this map was confusing.
Speaker 2:Can you quickly summarize what you?
Speaker 3:found in the map. Alex, it took me a minute.
Speaker 2:It is very confusing, but I think it's because they tried to break down everything by census tract and then they used I don't know, you know, at least redlining. They just used four letters and here they used like eight. It was just a little bit too much.
Speaker 3:But I think we found that injustice does not sit in one geographical space necessarily, that people move, and we know that because we've been relocated all over the place. If you look at the former Black Bottom, you're not going to see a lot of poverty there, right? In fact, that's one of the wealthiest areas of the city. I think about this as I'm driving down Woodward all of these beautiful brick homes that are just derelict now. But at one point Woodward Avenue was the. It was lined to both sides of the street with brick, beautiful homes, victorian homes and Brush Park.
Speaker 3:And then when you go through North End and Boston, edison and all of those neighborhoods, you're seeing what is it? You're seeing these gorgeous homes, but in a lot of instances the homes no longer look gorgeous. Even in Highland Park, right, highland Park used to be. It was not just a suburb and name only, it was a really fancy place, and what you're seeing is the relocation of people or the forced migration of people into other spaces. And that map kind of shows that people didn't stay in the same place, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah, you know the really thinking about how policies and institutions hollowed out parts of the city to build. What they want is very clear.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm looking at a story right now that Glee in Jefferson Chalmers. Glee was building a pump station right in the middle of a residential neighborhood to the dismay of so many people who live around there, the black folks who live around there. This is something that continues to reverberate present day.
Speaker 3:And that outlier media broke this story Planet Detroit.
Speaker 1:Planet Detroit, our partners, one of your partners.
Speaker 3:And you know. Then, when they do that, you know they say, oh my bad, we should have done a better job, maybe we didn't talk to enough people. And by the time they give half apologies, the damage is done. It's done, it's done, it's done. And that's so often what our public policy is. I wonder, 50 years from now, what people will say about this era where we have torn down so many homes or we have taken so many homes for tax foreclosure, where we have invested unevenly in neighborhoods. I wonder if people are going to get standing ovations for the progress we're making, because we call it progress, even if it comes at the expense of the most vulnerable people in our city. But we can't challenge that. I think it's on us to write that.
Speaker 1:I think it's on us to write the right version of what is going on, because he who gets to write the story always positions himself to win. And you know, I think in this situation, particularly what you're describing, there are clear losers. In this situation there are clear winners, and I think we have to be very honest about that as we continue to document the observation as storytellers, as journalists, as book writers, as data analysts. Alex, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:It's always a joy you got to come back. I appreciate you both. Yeah, we appreciate you If you have topics that you want discussed on Authentically Detroit. We didn't even take a break, so we're gonna have to ask Griffin to insert a break because the conversation was so good. You can hit us up on our socials at Authentically Detroit, on Facebook, instagram and Twitter, or you can email us at authenticallydetroit at gmailcom. All right, it is time for shout-outs. Donna, you have any shout-outs?
Speaker 3:I do. I'm going to shout-out Valencia Stoudemire. She is one of the most outstanding women that I know yes, all day. In all ways. Here you have this woman who lost her husband and was a parent to two children, who is a vice president of Henry Ford Health Systems and carries that. Who carries being a mother and does it with such grace.
Speaker 3:And is still a real member of our community, a beautiful, brilliant woman who acts with humility at all times. I just actually love being in her presence and I can't think of a person who could carry what she's carried as well as she does, because you know, you see her and she doesn't feel sorry for herself. In the space of these five years, she not only lost her husband. She lost her mother and then her father, and yet still she smiles. So, valencia, we love you and we admire you and respect you. Marlo was blessed to have you as his wife.
Speaker 1:No doubt Alex do you have any shout outs.
Speaker 2:You know, I feel like, based on our discussion of allies, it's good to shout out the government workers who are allies.
Speaker 1:Those of you in the belly of the beast.
Speaker 2:We see y'all, because that's often, you know, we often have a negative view of people who are working in government, I feel like, or in a certain city department. But there's definitely people there that are trying to, you know, change the way things are done and make them, make those improvements for residents. So shout out if you're, and also shout out if you lost your recent federal job and you're coming back to Michigan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would like to shout out the Black Detroit Democracy podcast. There is an episode live on the authentically. You can find it in the authentically Detroit library of episodes. Future episodes will be streamed on its own channel, but for now the first episode is live. The hosts are Donna Gavis-Davidson and Sam Robertson. The Black Detroit Democracy podcast. The first episode is live. The hosts are Donna Gavis-Davidson and Sam Robertson. The Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. The first episode is live with Reverend Larry Simmons of Brightmoor, all the way from Brightmoor on the west side.
Speaker 1:The other shout out I have is for the amazing staff at Outlier Media. So we have taken on this Windfalls Project where we are making sure that folks who are owed money from the county because the county sold their homes at auction for a. So I talked to a family that's owed that much. It's about 2,700 folks on the list. Some folks are now dead and so we are trying to figure out and suss out how to get this to heirs of those properties. I just want to shout out Alire and the Detroit Justice Center and Central Detroit Christian and Cody Rouge Action Alliance, as well as Bridging Communities, phyllis Edwards and the folks over there and One Detroit Credit Union for being our partners in this process. I mean, it sort of just happened and then folks just sort of was like yo, can we help? It wasn't like, oh, we're going to build out partnerships. People just came on board and the deadline to submit your claim for this money owed is March 3-1. Again, you got until the end of the week. Let's do it, let's make it. We have some events happening.
Speaker 1:Visit outliermediaorg to see where you can come and fill out this claim and get some help and a notary on site. All right, free help, free help. We're not charging for this. There are scammers who are trying to charge people To do this work out there. We are not those people. We are not charging for this service. Right? This is journalism in action. Alright, alright, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Join us next week At the Stoudemire For a live podcast With Yodit Mesfin-Johnson. Get the full details on our website, authenticallydetroitcom. Love on your neighbor. We'll see you next time. Outro Music.
