Authentically Detroit
Authentically Detroit is the leading podcast in the city for candid conversations, exchanging progressive ideas, and centering resident perspectives on current events.
Hosted by Donna Givens Davidson and Orlando P. Bailey.
Produced by Sarah Johnson and Engineered by Griffin Hutchings.
Check us out on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter @AuthenticallyDetroit!
Authentically Detroit
Black Detroit Democracy Podcast: Endorsements, Divisions, and Democracy in Detroit Politics
The Authentically Detroit Podcast Network in collaboration with Detroit One Million presents: The Black Detroit Democracy Podcast, hosted by Donna Givens Davidson and Sam Robinson!
Together, Donna and Sam illuminate the complexities of Detroit’s unique political landscape and give residents a resource for navigating civic engagement and election season.
On this episode they discuss the importance of participating in Detroit’s August 5th primary election. They go over how political endorsements are creating interesting divisions, District 5’s diversity of interesting city council candidates, low projected voter turnout (13%-18%), and whether or not Zohran Mamdani’s victory for democratic socialists in NYC could have an impact on Detroit’s politics.
For more episodes of the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast, click here.
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Orlando Bailey:Detroit mayoral race through the lens of young people. Good journalism costs.
Donna Givens Davidson:Visit DetroitOneMillioncom to the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. Every week, we open this podcast with a reading of the preamble to the Detroit City Charter, read by the one and only Bryce Detroit. The City Charter is our constitution, which defines our rights and the way government should work. I'm Donna Gibbons-Davidson, president and CEO of the Eastside Community Network.
Sam Robinson:I'm Sam Robinson, founder of Detroit. One Million.
Donna Givens Davidson:Thank you for listening in and supporting our expanded effort to build another platform of authentic voices for real people in the city of Detroit. We want you to like, rate and subscribe to our podcast on all platforms. The purpose of this podcast is to encourage Detroit citizens to stay vigilant in the fight for justice and equality. With a special call to action for Black Detroit, we seek to build awareness of our history as a gateway to freedom, a beacon for justice and a laboratory of liberation. Welcome back to the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. How are you today, sam?
Sam Robinson:I'm good, I'm jumping around, ripping and running as they say.
Donna Givens Davidson:Oh jumping.
Sam Robinson:Jumping.
Donna Givens Davidson:Including getting your car jumped a little earlier.
Sam Robinson:Jumping up. I am yeah, you know, I have a 2012 Honda Civic that when you leave the light on sitting there as I did all of last night throughout until today this morning, it'll die and that's what happened. But we got good people in the city of Detroit that are able to help me out and that's why I'm sitting here today. Around 2 o'clock this afternoon was like, oh, my goodness, I'm going to be so late, I'm going to just get an Uber. And I was offered oh, I got cable jumpers, let's try to do it. And it worked after like 10 minutes of trying. So you know, problem solving plus two for the day, but timeliness and efficiency is like negative 10 right now. So much is going on, guys. We are right in the middle of a Detroit election. Yeah, yeah, I mean, absentee ballots are out. I think last Wednesday they were like halfway through getting out 97,000 absentee ballot. That is called the permanent AV list that the state of Michigan has. That was a part of the Prop 2 changes in 2022.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yep. So I like to go vote in person. I like to go to the polls I still haven't gotten out of the habit of that but I usually go early. So in person, but early, just to make sure my vote counts, and I'm always afraid I'm going to mail it in in person, but early, just to make sure my vote counts and I'm always afraid I'm going to mail it in. I remember in 2013, no 2014, I went to vote at at that time, east English Village Prep High School, and instead of feeding my ballot into a machine, they put it in a cardboard box because the machine was broken and it's like I have no confidence that my ballot is going to count. But anyway, I do like to know that it's going in the machine and that my vote counts every time.
Sam Robinson:Yeah, yeah. Daniel Baxter would tell you don't worry, guys, your vote's going to count, you know, regardless of what Christina Caramo tries or tried to do. Remember when she tried to invalidate all of our absentee mail ballots back in 2022?
Donna Givens Davidson:I mean Daniel's a friend. I'm not going to say anything bad about him. He left. Alabama and came back to Detroit and I think he does the best job he can during elections to administer a fair election and I really don't want to be one of those people who beats up on our election officials because that sounds too much like what Republicans are trying to do, invalidating our contests. And that's not to say that there's never been any mistakes made.
Sam Robinson:There have been.
Donna Givens Davidson:Or that we don't need to update our systems and modernize the way that we do things, but that does not mean that our voter results are inaccurate, and so I sort of stand by them and want to believe in the integrity of our vote.
Sam Robinson:The voter rolls issue is one that has been tackled by Janice Winfrey's office to a pretty substantial degree, to my understanding. You remember, back in 2020, that was a big issue. Republicans would try to take aim at the fact that our precincts were out of balance. And, again to reiterate what you just said, no, that does not mean that voter fraud is occurring. But we still hear that sentiment from Detroiters themselves, like Lorenzo Sewell or Ramon Jackson, who will speak in Lansing in front of elections integrity committees chaired by Republican lawmakers, or Melissa Love. Melissa is a weekly caller in her to Detroit City Public City Council public comment. Well, thank you, we're being handed some something something it looks like a smoothie or something.
Sam Robinson:Yep, it's a smoothie, oh wow.
Donna Givens Davidson:Great Little tiny smoothie. Yes.
Sam Robinson:Melissa Love will call in and she will accuse Jocelyn Benson and Janice Winfrey of creating her voter profile. She claims to not have voted ever, yet she is on the list to have had voted and I just don't understand, because Jocelyn Benson has sort of provided her information as to why this may have happened. In fact, she probably did vote. She is either forgetting or misrepresenting what she was doing.
Donna Givens Davidson:If you read history books, in the history of Detroit votes, whenever there was in the 1920s, 1930s, whenever there was an unpopular decision made, and when I say unpopular, unpopular with the establishment, political establishment, when voters went against the expectations of the political establishment, there was always a question of voter fraud Black voters were accused of. This is a longstanding accusation that black voters are somehow illegitimate. And so when people delegitimize our votes, even when we are locally saying and pointing out you know observable flaws in the process, I stand by our votes. I stand by our process and I refuse to be one of the people who says our process is fraudulent. I like to see my vote go into the machine because there can be mistakes that are made. No system is perfect. That does not mean that I think that our voting system is producing you know the kind of flawed results that you hear about everywhere, and every single political, every single voting precinct in America has flaws, not just Detroit, yeah.
Sam Robinson:There's mistakes and they're corrected the day of. I mean, a lot of times we hear about them and they'll work to resolve them. I personally believe that they're not. They would take a concerted, widespread effort to rig an election in Detroit and I don't think the people working at the elections department are, like all on the same team, willing to do that. I just think it would take something that is more difficult than administering a fair election to do that.
Donna Givens Davidson:I agree with you. And listen, I'm not one of those people who believes that Mike Duggan did not win the city council primary. I think he did. People did learn how to spell his name so he could make it to the general election. I honestly do. I think that when we're trying to understand how he was elected or nominated the first time and he made it through that hump when he didn't go on the primary ballot I don't know if you recall that happening you were just a little kid and you weren't here but you know he did help people spell his name out and I think he made the case at that time that Detroit was in emergency management and he had the strategies to get us out of emergency management and, let's face it, the guy is a heck of a salesman. If you know me, you know I'm no Mike Duggan apologist, but I don't believe that his vote and that he came into office based on fraudulent math, and I know other people strongly believe that. But let's talk about city council.
Sam Robinson:Yes, let's do it.
Donna Givens Davidson:We're interviewing some city council members. Oh my goodness.
Sam Robinson:They have a District 5 candidate forum. Tonight Bridge Detroit held one last week. It might have been two weeks ago now. Some interesting candidates. You got a singer, tijana Jackson. You got George Adams. He's been around that Virginia Park neighborhood I know George.
Donna Givens Davidson:George is a friend.
Sam Robinson:Yeah, he's a good guy. You got Esther Hogabook. She has decades of experience in government and currently works at HUD. Now.
Donna Givens Davidson:I've met Esther and I like her as well.
Sam Robinson:You got Willie Burton. He's a progressive spitfire board of police commissioner who you know. People have seen his name on a ballot and if you're in Detroit around politics and elections, people put a lot of value into candidates who have appeared on the ballot before. So there is a group you know that does believe Willie is going to have success in that primary. You got Michael Richard, longtime community guy. He actually received the endorsement from the 13th Congressional District Democratic Party, which I thought was interesting.
Donna Givens Davidson:I think it's interesting. I'm not sure those endorsements matter as much as other people do, but you also have there's some other people. I met one of the women who's campaigning while I was visiting my daughter. I actually live in District 5 as well, but one of my daughters lives in District 5.
Sam Robinson:Renata Miller. Renata Miller UAW retiree and she earned the UAW endorsement.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, she won the UAW endorsement you have you know.
Sam Robinson:Her daughter was on Baddies Jasmine Renee she was on Baddies Zeus Network Bad.
Bryce Detroit:She was on Baddies Jasmine Renee.
Sam Robinson:She was on Baddies Zeus Network Baddies Her daughter not Renata, but her daughter was on Zeus Network Baddies. So shout out to L'Oreal Plummer and all of that.
Donna Givens Davidson:She's a baddie, then I don't watch those shows, but I've never heard anything productive about the Zeus Network. We'll leave it there. You know, I think that we have some candidates who seem pretty strong. What I wonder about those?
Donna Givens Davidson:There's so many conflicting endorsements. There's some people who seem to sell through just about every district. You have, For example, Angela Whitfield. Calloway is Fannie Lou Hamer, Black Slate, 13th Congressional District. She seems to be supported by everybody but the Detroit Free Press and that's because she wouldn't interview for them. But then you have others where it seems like there's a divide between who is supporting Mary and who is supporting Jonathan Kinloch for mayor. I should say One of the surprising things I see is that Denzel McCampbell is showing up on everybody's endorsement list and we interviewed Denzel, as onebell is showing up on everybody's endorsement list and you know we interviewed Denzel as one of our first guests on this podcast. I love Denzel as a person and candidate. I just think he'll be great for city council if he makes it on, and it looks like he has a pretty good shot of doing so.
Sam Robinson:Yeah, you know. Voters there again with the line of we got to see your name before. They are familiar with Karen Whitsett, obviously, and Regina Ross. Regina came close to defeating Fred Durhall the last election. But voters have also seen Denzel McCampbell's name. You know he ran for city clerk.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, well, he did, and I think, in addition to that, people have seen Karen with Lexney, but not always in the most favorable way.
Donna Givens Davidson:There's some residual anger at Karen by many people who are politicos, including myself, right, I feel as though there were so many things on the legislative agenda that she just single handedly helped to kill, handedly helped to kill, and some of them are, you know, bigger and some of them are smaller. But I'm really disappointed in what I see as her leadership the entire time that she was in the state house, and not because of that, but because I am such a strong supporter of Denzel McCampbell I hope he makes it and I love the way the Free Press endorsed him and talked about his creative problem-solving capacity, because I do believe that that's a strength of his and we need creative problem-solvers on city council. But talk about your interviews, because you interviewed some folks.
Sam Robinson:What did you interview? Yeah well, I talked to Denzel is one. I talked to Gabby. Both of these individuals come from sort of a similar cloth of politic. Gabby, at a recent candidate forum with Tyrone Carter, sort of drew a line in the sand she is not going to take corporate PAC money. That's been a part of her whole political identity since it began. Tyrone Carter of course will, and sort of unapologetically justified doing so. After a question Malachi Barrett of Bridge, detroit, presented to both candidates which was from the audience, someone asking whether both of them will pledge not to take corporate PAC money, tyrone said it's insulting that voters will suggest candidates or electeds who take money from large corporations, owe them something which didn't really land well there in the Hispanic Development Corporation where we were on Trumbull.
Donna Givens Davidson:I mean, why should it land? Well, the reality is that people give campaign contributions to people who either make promises or align with their values. And when you look at the values or the promises that are extracted from some of these corporate entities, including PACs, let's be really honest. Pacs are not shy about making demands right. If I'm giving you money, I expect something in return. That's a part of the American political system and a lot of us want to see money out of politics, and so when you're running races, sometimes it's absolutely unavoidable. If you're running for president, try you know, you're going to have a PAC. If you're running for governor, you're going to have a PAC.
Sam Robinson:Unless you're Bernie.
Donna Givens Davidson:Sanders, I guess. Well, bernie Sanders has PACs, right, bernie Sanders has, he has a PAC and his PAC has actually endorsed certain people for office.
Sam Robinson:Let's talk about corporate PACs, and Mary actually got in trouble with MLL recently about saying on campaign literature that she wasn't taking money from corporate PACs, despite having taken money from corporate PACs.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, she did. Her campaign literature did say that and it's an unforced error.
Sam Robinson:It was a fundraising email.
Donna Givens Davidson:It was a fundraising email. I think that you know whether Mary or the people that she hired made that mistake. It's the kind of error that is unnecessary. People know she has back money. All you have to do is go on the Wayne County Clerk's website, which of course I do because of the kind of person I am. I'm always curious who's getting money from whom, and I think it's safe to say that Mary has corporate money.
Sam Robinson:Yes, and if you guys want to look that up, waynecountymigov, and then you'll go to the clerk subhead section within government elected officials clerk and then you'll click on campaign finance website.
Donna Givens Davidson:You can look it all up. We can just put it on our Facebook page or share it with people. Yes, you know we're going to do.
Bryce Detroit:We can just put it on our Facebook page or share it with people.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yes, you should, because the process of trying to find that.
Donna Givens Davidson:Like it is not for beginners okay, it is not you have to figure out how to answer all of the questions and which reports to look for. There's good information there. If you're giving money, people have the right to know that you gave. I think people have the right to look at the trends of who's giving to whom and hold people accountable for whether or not they are how they're accepting money. I mean nobody very few people are going to turn away money, right, so I'm not suggesting that people should turn away money, but my question is the percentage of small donations versus large donations, the percentage of people who live in Detroit making donations, who is giving? And there's some interesting trends. Now, the only people I've been able to find out finance information for are Mary Sheffield and Sontiel Jenkins, and they have a very different group of supporters.
Sam Robinson:Yeah, they very much do is mostly coming from small donors, where Suntil is getting a lot of her support, at least in the most recent campaign filing that was posted yeah, that was some months ago. We're going to actually get a new one this month. So we're going to find out Solomon Kinloch. We're going to find out James Craig. Who's what Republicans are supporting James Craig's run for mayor? Do they have a stake in the state of Detroit elections?
Sam Robinson:But Gabby Santiago Romero and Denzel McCampbell both of these individuals are self-described Democratic socialists. I talked to both of them about what that means this week. I talked to both of them about the history of Democratic socialists in Detroit, which there is one, we know, the history of democratic socialists in Detroit, which there is one, and really, whether or not the New York City mayor's election that just officially ended yesterday. Last week we learned that the presumptive nominee in that race was going to be a democratic socialist, Zoran Memdani. Zoran is making a lot of people across the country excited because after the presidential election, Democrats were sort of told that you cannot be progressive to win and obviously Zoran is throwing a wrench in that.
Donna Givens Davidson:I can't wait to have that discussion. We're going to pick that one up in a few minutes because that's a really rich conversation to have. Who was a democraticist? And was Martin Luther King Jr a Democratic Socialist? Because many people say that he was. And so, as we see how things have played out across the nation in terms of how people are responding to Mondemi's election, it's kind of crazy to me, not necessarily unexpected, but very disappointing to me based on where I stand. But anyway, talking back about the candidates, I do think that Denzel and Gabby represent Democratic Socialist wing of the party, which is also going to be one that is supported by Abdul El-Sayed, also supported by I don't know if Garland Gilchrist is going to try to take on that mantle.
Sam Robinson:That would be really something, wouldn't it? And he is certainly I think he used the phrase different tone when I asked him. He's breaking away from the governor.
Donna Givens Davidson:He is. He is. I think. We interviewed him a couple weeks ago. It was a great interview, and I'm just really proud of him for his voice and the way that he's using it to make his case, so I'm interested in seeing how these things play out. I think that there's great things ahead. Now let's talk about the details of the positions, though, because you've actually interviewed some of these candidates and gotten a better understanding of where they come from. Have you interviewed all of the District 5 or many of the District 5 candidates, and if so, what are you hearing?
Sam Robinson:I have. It's interesting. I think a lot of people assume George Adams was going to get help from outsiders. Because of his work on 360 Detroit and already having a development background, george is someone who is very focused in on his community and what development that occurred around that Virginia Park. He's very proud of that and I'm not sure if other candidates are going to be able to say I did this. I put this here in the same way that George Adams will. To say I did this. I put this here in the same way that George Adams will.
Sam Robinson:Esther Hagebuch and certainly Renata Miller have their own sort of personal accomplishments. But you know, renata is a really interesting candidate. She is sort of taking some of the Sean Fain playbook about a rig system, about we need to really maybe not dissolve but restructure completely the Detroit land bank. Talks about how we need to be better negotiators for incentives for large scale projects Not that we need to do away with tax abatements or incentives to spur developers and large businesses to come and build here, but she thinks that we could do a lot better job giving something back for the public and she's very passionate about that. Esther Hagebuch she's at HUD and when you talk to her you really sense a maturity that I'm not sure that I sense from the other candidates, not to say that they're immature, but her seniority, her age. I actually don't know how old she is, but she has decades of experience working in government that some of these folks don't have.
Sam Robinson:Tijana Jackson is interesting. She is a part of a group, um group um of singers, her and her sisters, and, um, she currently is the president of her neighborhood association. Uh, michael Richard of course has a lot of friends. I think we felt that when he got the 13th district endorsement which was sort of random, I didn't, I didn't wasn't expecting, uh, that 13th district democratic party to endorse him, but, um, I've been speaking to him and his team for a while now. Willie burton is a guy that I see at desert oasis downtown, um, in capitol park almost every week. Willie is again. He's another interesting guy. He's very passionate about police accountability. Obviously, in his role in the Board of Police Commissioners he has upset and made uncomfortable some of his colleagues that he works with.
Donna Givens Davidson:I mean, he's alienated himself. Yes, and my question is always are you able to move the needle in terms of legislative practice? Because when it comes to some of these candidates and I don't know, are you done? Because I want to wait until you're done.
Sam Robinson:No, go ahead yeah.
Donna Givens Davidson:You know, george is a friend and I remember he got into the race very late, kind of at the last minute, but he's there and he's done some work that other people haven't. I'm not necessarily. This is a legislative role, this is not an executive role, and in the legislative role I want to know what your opinions are about things that matter to average traders, things that matter to average Detroiters. And so do you have anything beyond development experience? Do you have experience looking at the needs of various people? And I'm not saying he does or doesn't, but I think that from candidates that's what I'm looking for.
Donna Givens Davidson:In her role at HUD, I had one conversation. I met Esther one time. I know a family member. I've known a family member, terrence Hogg Books, since I was in college, and so I just kind of connected the fact that they might be related. I think they might be cousins, but at any rate, or maybe through marriage, I'm not certain but Esther was really a compelling person even when I met her. And I think when you talk about maturity, you're really thinking about bringing wisdom into spaces that don't necessarily have wisdom, because we need not just ideas, but we need people who have the kind of wisdom where they can balance things and you kind of get that from her.
Sam Robinson:She's very comfortable talking about the issues and she, on every issue, has an example of how her work at either HUD or in the past could work too Well, that's work to.
Donna Givens Davidson:Well, that's certainly awesome to hear that, that we have Candace like that. Renata is very personable, you know, I met her. She's very personable. She told me at the time that she was a cousin to Angela Brown Wilson, who you know is the heart of this organization in so many ways, who we just lost, and I, you know I don't know the extent to which they were close, but she told me that Angela was encouraging her run and that certainly was a connector at that point. Ultimately, I'm going to be looking at your stories and other stories to determine who I vote for. I have not delved into the candidate profiles and what they're saying. When are you going to publish this?
Sam Robinson:Oh, we're going to be publishing stuff on Michigan Chronicle this next week into the week after next, really up until August 5, you guys are going to get a look inside a lot of these candidates Not just candidates, but voters who are voters looking for. I personally am looking to talk to a number of individuals who are willing to have me take a picture of them, about why they voted for, who they voted for. If you've already voted, obviously I'm starting to get messages saying that I voted my absentee for Santeel. I voted my absentee for Mary, for Solomon or Fred. I haven't heard anybody for James Craig yet. They might not believe in absentee voting for Solomon or Fred. I haven't heard anybody for James Craig yet. Wow, they might not believe in absentee voting.
Donna Givens Davidson:Oh, you know it'd be interesting. So what I really want to also contrast is ages of people, ethnicities, how long they've been in Detroit. So the greater that you can tease that information out of people, I think, the more informative it's going to be. We're going to talk about in our next segment the issue of Zoran Mondani black and progressive ethnic and generational divides, because one of the things that has emerged as a theme has been the resistance to his candidacy by many black people yes, including voters in New York, but also nationally. I think 50 Cent was going to pay him to get out of the race. There's a concern there about the way that it's being presented and perceived and some truth there. So we're going to take a break and we'll be back in a couple minutes. And let's dive into Mondami. What's happening there?
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Donna Givens Davidson:And we're back talking about Zoramandami and I have listen so many people say that let's start with who he is. Masala, which is a Denzel Washington movie that speaks to, I think it was the relationship between a black man and an Indian woman, and so, learning about that, I was like wow, that's like a movie I watched. Somebody said, have you ever seen that? And I was like Denzel was in it. Are you kidding me?
Donna Givens Davidson:But he's the son of this very creative person who, very long ago, really imagined this relationship between a black and Indian person. He's the son of a father who is distinguished in his own right and he has been in the city of New York working really hard on some issues that matter to me around housing and wages and environmental justice matter to me, around housing and wages and environmental justice and yet there are many black people who say that he is not acting on black issues and so he got the minority of the black vote in the city of New York, based on some of the post-election polling that I've seen. What are your thoughts on that, sam, and can you round out my understanding of this man and what happened?
Sam Robinson:I talked to Abraham Ayyash. He was the former state representative out of Hamtramck. He was in New York City for a week supporting Zoran Mamdani Really interesting. I think you can sort of draw parallels to, uh, the black political establishment class of Detroit and the um supporters, um for Eric Adams or Andrew Cuomo, um, and it really is a generational divide. I think I did see the age number like under 36 or 34.
Sam Robinson:He actually did win according to exit polls, with young black voters, but older black voters went to Cuomo and you know really yeah, really, despite Zoran in his campaign, addressing their needs in a way that now Cuomo was saying he did a pretty good job. Talking about affordability, affordability in the economy is the reason I think that we saw 8,000 more people vote for Trump in Detroit in 2024. There was 19,667 voters in the city of Detroit that voted for Trump. Kamala won Detroit by 90%, but that group of people there are very loud and it included. You know, it was more than just the 19,000. It was the people who didn't show up to vote for her, and that was the thing and Zoran getting those people. He literally flipped the voting demographics and I think, when we talk about how do you inspire young people, which the Democrats are obsessed with because they haven't been unable to do it, it's a, it's a template for them.
Donna Givens Davidson:Is it not? It is I'm going to say this and or much older than 36. Really, this data is embarrassing. It's really upsetting to me and I feel like I'm on an island and I'm trying to figure out how to find my way off of the island. I don't understand it. And I do understand it all at the same time.
Donna Givens Davidson:I feel as though we look at black issues as being separate from human rights issues, as being somehow separate. I think the way the conversations we have about civil rights are in silos, and so we don't see ourselves as in our needs and our beings and our history as being connected to that of any other people. We, and we alone in our imaginations, were enslaved, not people in Latin America, who were also enslaved in many instances. Not people in places like India, where you had colonialism and all of the oppressions that went along with that. Not people in China. Only black people have experienced this racial devastation. And when people come to the United States, you know we have this tendency to look at the fact that they adopt Eurocentric viewpoints that exclude black people as evidence that we're not the same, Notwithstanding the fact that many people coming from the continent of Africa have also incorporated those few points because and many people in the United States have incorporated that you know, white supremacy is like a drug okay, it's highly addictive, it's worse than crack, it's hard to get rid of. Let's, you know, we need some of us just need treatment facilities for white supremacy so that we can understand how damaging it is.
Donna Givens Davidson:And I should say white cis, hetero, male supremacy right, Because all of these systems are acting in behavior of white men who are the primary beneficiaries of everything that happened under Trump, except that so many white men are also the victims of everything that happened under Trump.
Donna Givens Davidson:They may not know it yet, but if this big bloated budget passes, they'll find out soon, because black women are not the only people on Medicaid. But I say all of that to say that we have become so fragmented and so nationalistic in our thinking that we forget that we're connected to other people. Housing justice should not be a black issue, a white issue, a Hispanic issue or an Asian issue. Housing justice is justice. Environmental justice is justice. Wage justice is justice. Do you also have to fight within those systems of justice against racism and colorism that influences things? Yes, but to believe that somehow the pathway to freedom for black people is separate from the pathway to freedom and justice for all other people is to misunderstand American history. In my point of view, People who I love and admire and respect coming out and saying well, he did not cultivate the black voter.
Sam Robinson:He did not do things for the black vote, as though the black vote sits on an island somewhere away from every other voter, is offensive to me and I just I don't understand why. I mean, andrew Cuomo is not calling for reparations. You used to think that calling for defunding the police which Zoran did in 2020, you used to think that being as vocally pro-Pal months ago, that those were disqualifiers for Democrats. And now it is sort of you know, putting the Overton window, pushing it a bit, and we're seeing Democrats across the country. You know, left of the Democratic Party, they're taking real hope.
Donna Givens Davidson:It's been like this for some time, though right In the 2016 elections, when Bernie Sanders was running I think that was 2016,. It was Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton right, and Bernie Sanders was making waves throughout the nation and Hillary Clinton came along and she was not doing as well, and many people felt as though the elections were rigged by the Democratic establishment because they wanted to see Bernie Sanders and I may have the history wrong and I may get the names wrong, so excuse me in advance if I do, but, as I recall, there was a senior representative from the House of Representatives in South Carolina who supported Hillary Clinton, despite all of the concerns many people had for Hillary Clinton, and it changed the race. It was the black vote that changed the race. Likewise, when Biden was running against Bernie Sanders, it was the black vote that changed the race. People say, oh, these Eastern votes don't really matter, wait until you get into the deep South, where the black people have a lot of sway.
Donna Givens Davidson:The allegiance to the Democratic Party is really strong, the trust is really strong, even though there has been mistrust, and I think there's a lot of fear that if we don't support these people who we know better, the devil we know the devil. We don't, that we'll be in trouble. I think there's also a feeling of being displaced. I've heard people talk about the browning of black political power, that a lot of younger politicians, be they Denzel McCampbell or others, are functioning in multiracial coalitions which are not just black. The black caucus does not drive their idealism. Instead, you have groups of people who are driven by some policy issues that transcend racial identity and it's threatening. If you look at the group of people that Gabrielle Sante you know I'm going to get her name Denzel McCampbell, donovan McKinney and others belong to, there's some black representation, for sure, but most black politicians in the state of Michigan, most black politicians in the state of New York, do not belong to these coalitions.
Sam Robinson:Yeah, sherry Gadegnago, she had a press conference at KMAC last year when Karen Witsett was doing her boycotts of House session and really you know, in conversations, kind of making it clear that a lot of longtime black electeds feel like the Democratic Party in Michigan, instead of centering their needs and issues and focusing on what they had to say, began focusing on Ann Arbor Democrats, who some of which are gay men like Jason Morgan or whoever, but that was an issue that I heard all the time of. Oh, they got Elliot Larson through Jeremy Moss.
Donna Givens Davidson:Jason Hoskins. They don't want to do anything for black people. I just came back from LA and visiting my son. It's his 30th birthday party and he's gay. And he had a 30th birthday party and he invited his friends and there were about four women that he invited and the rest of them were all gay black men. It was an amazing situation because they were all partying and free and I thought, listen, he lives in an apartment building, he's got a rooftop pool, but these are black men. My son is a black man, he does not need to disqualify himself because he is also gay. And the way that people like Sherry want to put people in boxes, as though gay rights are not black rights, as though somehow you can oppress one group of people without other people being oppressed. One of the ways you oppress people is you play them against each other Gays versus blacks, blacks versus Hispanics, hispanics versus Asians. And the more you do that the more Arabs versus Jews.
Donna Givens Davidson:Oh, my Arabs versus Jews, Blacks versus Arabs, right, and growing up in Detroit, I grew up so close to a lot of Chaldeans. I used to live across what were from what they call Little Beirut, just to give you a sense of my neighborhood, and we never had issues right and you had a whole lot of intermarrying or I don't know if they were married, but a whole lot of babies who were born, you know, biracial in that community. But this mindset that all Arab people hate black people gives rise to mindsets where we don't care about what's happening in Palestine because those people don't care about us and we don't have to look at the reality that when people are trying to liberate South Africa from apartheid, Palestine stood with South Africa and Israel stood with I mean with black folks in South Africa and Israel stood with the apartheid system, which makes sense because Israel is an apartheid state. But if we look at the history books, we're told to hate these people because they hate us and the reality is much different.
Donna Givens Davidson:There may be trust issues between groups and I think there are a lot of black people who are justifiably hurt that there are people who would not vote for Kamala Harris because she was a black woman, I get the hurt, but the reality is that there's going to be people who are hurt that the black, older black community at least voted against Mondami Okay. So at some point it's like tit for tat, tat for tit, and who wins? Because Cuomo has never been a friend to black folks.
Sam Robinson:Right and you see Governor Hochul out there in New York talking about it and several assembly members in the New York legislature talking about how they're not going to endorse Mandani. Very kind of similar to what we saw here in Dearborn of the uncommitted movement. Similar to, you know, what we saw here in Dearborn of the uncommitted movement, rashida never you know sort of fully committing to backing Kamala Harris. And the response then at the time was, you know, vote blue, no matter who. And now you have a democratic socialist that the conservative Democrats are like no, we're not going to endorse him. We got to see what he's going to say and if he's going to, you know, bend his knee to our needs.
Donna Givens Davidson:And so I think really what we're talking about is a generational change, where younger generations this is my hope is in the future is that younger people have a more broadened understanding of what justice looks like than a lot of people my age and that's, you know, kind of a stereotype as well, because you have young Trumpsters walking around with MAGA hats and Elon Musk had a whole bunch of young white guys Gen Z 1.0 versus Gen Z 2.0.
Donna Givens Davidson:Well, whatever you know, I think that I don't want to stereotype, but I do think that there are people within a younger generation. I think that's always true. I think that there are people within younger generation who have more open minds. One of the two things happens as you get older, from my experience either your mind opens up or it closes. And so I know some people who are a lot more progressive at this age, at their ripened ages, and they were young and they were afraid of losing their homes and they had all the fears around their children and I was sort of like now what do I have to lose? Or people who have life experiences that have led them to the left.
Donna Givens Davidson:I am certainly further left and more progressive than I was when I was in my thirties because I know more, because I understand systems more. My values didn't necessarily change, but I'm also more vocal about some things because I feel more free to be vocal than I did when I was young and afraid of losing grants and you know other kinds of things. So I think that the younger generation is going to be matched by some people. Now. Did you see Al Sharpton came out and supported him? Yes, and that was a surprise, because he broke ranks with other establishment.
Sam Robinson:You know he, zoran, used a Al Sharpton quote in front of him and that went pretty far. It's interesting, I think. And just my question talking about all this stuff is like does a democratic socialist ever play in Detroit? Obviously, we have one on city council, we have one in the state legislature, antonio Myers Phillips. Sure, could it ever play like as a mayoral candidate? I?
Donna Givens Davidson:mean, I think if you had somebody who was running on those ideals, yes, but I think that we haven't gotten there yet. We are such a conservative, politically conservative city.
Sam Robinson:Who's the closest right now, the closest candidate, to a democratic socialist?
Donna Givens Davidson:I don't think we have one. You know, we were in Mackinac. We were both in Mackinac. We heard the answers when they talked about the business community and people were lamenting tax cuts for businesses running out. I didn't hear anybody speak to a democratic socialist ideal?
Sam Robinson:I didn't either, and the closest I got was I asked, after the debate, all the candidates who are the business community we're here on Mackinac Island Name them, talk about them. And the only person that didn't name anybody's name is Solomon Kinloch. You know what he said to me. He said well, you know the capitalists.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, he says that and that's great, but I don't think that makes him into a democratic socialist.
Sam Robinson:I don't think so either. I don't think it does either.
Donna Givens Davidson:I think that I have yet to see, and I was actually hopeful that he would be different than what I've seen happen on the campaign trail. What I've seen is this strain of black conservatism that continues to maintain outdated notions of what justice looks like. I think that of the candidates, each of them has aspects of a better vision of Detroit than what we have right now, except for Craig, but I think all of them have some aspects of that vision. Democratic socialism is not something that is being promoted. We don't have a real strong base for that. If Denzel McCampbell makes it onto Detroit City Council, he'll bring us closer, and I think we also have to remember that we've had people on City Council, like you know, marianne Mahaffey and Irma Henderson and Kwame Kenyatta and others who really were about those values, even though they may not have used those labels, and so and Joanne Watson, the late, great Joanne Watson as well. So I want to honor some of the ancestors who were here doing that.
Donna Givens Davidson:I think Detroit's politics are really shaped around. Fear of bankruptcy, fear of emergency management, fear of business abandonment and fear-based politics stop you from being innovative. Hopefully we can begin to see some changes moving forward. I've heard really promising things from city council, some sitting city council members who will be reelected and some people who are actually running for office. I want to call out especially some differences in focus. I've heard from Letitia Johnson and some conversations I've had with Angela Whitfield Calloway, who's actually fighting for her seat, but in Gabrielle I've seen some strands of improvements there. So if we can have a democratic, socialist controlled city council at some point, it won't be this cycle, but at some point from moving in that direction it does open the door for somebody to step into a mirror seat, hopefully in the future. What do you think?
Sam Robinson:Well, I think you know, as time goes on, people who are in their 30s and 20s will grow old and will probably either get more conservative or remain where they are. I think when I see the democratic socialist groups or when I go to their events, it is mostly white, and so that's where I would start. I would start the black outreach if I was Detroit DSA.
Donna Givens Davidson:I mean, the one thing democratic socialists have to do a better job of is understanding racism or acknowledging racism as something other than class. Classism and racism are two systems that sometimes intersect, but don't have to. You can have people who are poor white people who are part of a racist party simply because they really do hate black people. They want to feel better than black people and to deny the reality of race hatred, to deny the reality of racism within unions. You know union violence. You know, when you look at Bloody Summer 1918, those were white union workers fighting black folks, white workers.
Donna Givens Davidson:So this idea that it's wage, you know concerns when you had people burned out of their homes and people who were attacked and killed because they were wearing army uniforms while returning from World War II, to omit racism as part of the conversation is problematic. And it's not just racism against Black people, because Black people are not the only people who experience racism, but there are bigoted hatred belief systems that allow for Palestinian children to be killed and Palestinian people to be trying to get food and kill while they're trying to get food, and it just barely makes the news, whereas if there were white people who, in some similar circumstances, it would be, you know news cycle on repeat. I think we have to acknowledge it and I think that's a weakness of the Democratic Socialist Party. I think also we have to keep in mind.
Sam Robinson:Are the Democrats doing a better job at that than them, though?
Donna Givens Davidson:I think Democrats are doing a better job at symbolic, symbolic allyship not necessarily allyship, but there's a symbolic allyship.
Sam Robinson:I think you're right yeah there's.
Donna Givens Davidson:There's a really poor job, but what I hear is Democrats and Democratic socialists openly rejecting identity politics as though somehow black person in order to be a member of your group, then that is oppressive. So I'm not saying I think any party has a right. I think that racism is across every political party. I think white supremacy is the operating system of America and that we have to be very intentional when we fight against it. I do want to acknowledge one other thing, though.
Donna Givens Davidson:Many, many people who are in politics today, many people in the Democratic Party, had to fight very hard for their positions in the party. There are many people working in corporations corporations who had to fight very, very hard to assimilate into those spaces, and there was a belief system that being included would get you to freedom Right, and I think younger people are seeing and rejecting that narrative and many of them are saying no, I don't want to be included in these racist, supremacist systems. I want justice and freedom, but if you spent your entire life fighting for inclusion, the idea that somehow you're going to step outside of that inclusive space that you fought to be in and be able to create the same impact.
Sam Robinson:Is that it?
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, I think it's to create the same impact. I think it's also, you know, Because the resources aren't there.
Sam Robinson:With what you're doing in a smaller level.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah. And also, when you get into those spaces, what do you become? You become one of the privileged right Political systems sort of reward, political privilege. If I'm part of a politically privileged class of people, I'm going to fight to maintain my privilege, whether it's because of my race, and I think that people who sit outside of there, a lot of younger people we're seeing ageism in America play out in our politics right Younger voters themselves are a threat.
Donna Givens Davidson:I've heard people talk about the browning of black power, this feeling that we're going to be marginalized, this lack of trust that we can continue fighting and we don't need these systems to prop us up. So I want to acknowledge how people got to be this way. But also, if we're telling white women you need to hold your sisters accountable, you need to hold other white women accountable, then to what extent do black people need to talk to our friends and our family members and say you're not being accountable? To what extent do we need to hold ourselves accountable to a justice narrative? To what extent do we need to look at Cuomo's record and compare it to Mondami's record? To what extent do we need to look at history and also values and political campaign speeches so that we can compare and contrast them and say which one hews closer to justice.
Sam Robinson:I would say, you know, just I would say Zoran went way further than Cuomo and every aspect of his campaign was just done better. I mean from having the background of a filmmaker as your mother to know. You know, all of Zoran's friends are probably people with thousands of dollars. Cameras, equipment and certainly his staff or whoever he put together, were probably the best video team to create those stories. In the campaign logo you saw was a bodega. Like they crafted it after what the storefronts of New York look like and what the bus tickets of New York look like. It was just such a well thought out operation.
Donna Givens Davidson:But it's looked at by many of the voters in black communities, as privileged white people did this. These are people of privilege. I don't know that the certainly there were people of privilege, but not just people of privilege. Am I correct in that?
Sam Robinson:No, yeah, yeah, you're, you're absolutely correct. Um, I mean Zoran won big, so I mean he, he won um, brad Lander got 13%. Um, and Brad Lander did a. Really, you know he is the um uh comptroller of the city of New York. Yeah, the person that cross endorsed Zoran and Brad Lander really owes Zoran, owes Lander, a lot of credit for doing that. Brad Lander is a Jewish official who sort of gave Zoran legitimacy within that community to people who disagree with them. Brad Lander saying you know, if you vote for me, one vote for Zoran. Two. Zoran know if you vote for me, one vote for Zoran, two. Zoran saying if you vote for me, one vote for Zoran, two. You know Brad had to take a lot of heat from people that he's, you know, in tight with.
Donna Givens Davidson:And I want to bring up something else connected to this. Yeah, ranked choice voting, oh yeah, this is a different type of voting. There is a ballot initiative for ranked choice voting in Michigan and some people are saying, hey, wait a minute, we have to watch this system because it helps Zora get to this role, and I don't know if that's true, but that's what I'm hearing from some people.
Sam Robinson:Yeah, A lot of Republicans are spending a lot of money. Devos against this Just got approved by the State Board of Canvassers this past week. Rank my Vote is the ballot initiative. This is what the campaign is calling themselves, in hopes that voters are going to adopt a ballot proposal to bring ranked choice voting to Michigan for federal and statewide offices. This would not, to my understanding, affect local municipal elections Not yet.
Donna Givens Davidson:But if we get it in the state, there's a possibility. It will, you know, at some point come down to the municipal level. I think each city would have to adopt its own election system in order to make it happen in that way. We have one more issue before we close out, and that is Mary Sheffield on the UAW.
Sam Robinson:Oh, my goodness, what a day it was. Earlier this week, mary Sheffield, on her Instagram story, posted a flyer which included the UAW pinwheel UAW for Mary Sheffield. You can't do that because it's unauthorized. The UAW has endorsed Solomon Kinloch. Did the flyer with the UAW logo come from Mary Sheffield's campaign?
Sam Robinson:Mary Sheffield's campaign says no, we did not create this, despite it having two of the email contacts on the bottom of the QR code there of her campaign and a woman named Linda Jackson. She is of UAW 7, local 7. She told me UAW Local 7 and UAW Local 51 members are mostly supporting Mary Sheffield. I've spoken to several members. They told me that they came up with the flyer and LaShawn English sent a scorching letter to press a statement, gave us a statement the other day saying Mary Sheffield should know better than to confuse and to attempt to confuse voters over where the UAW stands. The campaign didn't really appreciate that, seeing that they say they did not create the flyer and that they just merely shared it. But it was an interesting. You know, these quotes on the Michigan or the comments on the Facebook page of the Michigan Chronicle are just something else and you'll see members.
Sam Robinson:People are saying that the screening process was illegitimate. People are saying all kinds of stuff. To my understanding, about 25 to 30 UAW members were a part of the endorsement process that wound up giving the endorsement to Solomon Kinloch process that wound up giving the endorsement to Solomon Kinloch. Whether all the ratio of how many of those people were Detroit residents is that issue.
Donna Givens Davidson:What percentage were it? I don't know.
Sam Robinson:I've asked the UAW, I've asked the members there. They obviously don't know because it was a secret, anonymous ballot. But they ranked everybody and Solomon Kinloch received the highest.
Donna Givens Davidson:Now he says he was a union member.
Sam Robinson:He was for about a couple of years before he became?
Donna Givens Davidson:What did? He do At.
Sam Robinson:Axel, american Axel. At the Detroit Axel. Oh, detroit Axel Well is it the same one, and they changed the name.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, no, it's a different one. Detroit Axel Is it the same one and they changed the name? Yeah, no, it's a different one. Detroit Axle is on 8 Mile, american Axle is on the-. I think it's Detroit Axle, but I could be incorrect.
Sam Robinson:Correct me if I'm wrong. Solomon Kinloch, but he did work there and he actually on stage at a UAW rally with Sean Fain and LaShawn English and Laura Dickerson said that it was because of the union that he was able to study to become a pastor. He said that they allowed him to take time off when he was a young man. This was 30 years ago.
Donna Givens Davidson:I think that sounds like a great political ad. I think the challenge I have and we're going to have to wrap this up but the challenge I have with that whole narrative is why is the UAW endorsing Detroit elections? Does the UAW have the kind of standing in our community? Are they trying to—do they represent the will of voters? And so in the feedback that you've seen, have you seen a lot of UAW members angry at Mary or angry with the process, or is it mixed?
Sam Robinson:It's mixed. I see a lot of folks upset that Mary Sheffield's campaign would post this to her Instagram account using the pinwheel logo, knowing that that is not allowed. You are not allowed to use their logo unauthorized, without expressed consent written by the UAW and its leadership, who have all endorsed her competitors. So they are like why would you do this? Obviously there are people that are coming up out of their you know Facebook's accounts to say, hey, I'm a local 51 member, hey, I'm a local seven member. I just heard today from somebody at Local 51 who told me that he believes a majority of their members there Local 51 and Local 7 are in Detroit.
Sam Robinson:Local 900 is in Wayne. A big part of Sean Fain and Solomon's remarks were about Kinloch's support of the stand-up strike. He actually said that it motivated him to run for mayor. Sean Fain's aggressive negotiation tactics, which resulted in higher wages for UAW workers, was behind one of the reasons why he wanted to run for mayor. And I mean I'm told that there were local 900 members there who were a part of the screening process. Local 900 is located in Wayne, michigan, the city of Wayne. They have no stake in the Detroit election.
Donna Givens Davidson:So I think it's an interesting question. I think endorsements is going to be really interesting. Whose endorsements matter? There's a battle between Fannie Lou Hamer and the Black Slate.
Sam Robinson:Yeah, they endorsed Kinloch.
Donna Givens Davidson:I know the Black Slate endorsed Kinloch and Fannie Lou Hamer, which is, you know, really controlled by Pastor Wendell Anthony. Yes, and the NAACP endorsed Mary Sheffield. So we're seeing some divisions here. I wonder if endorsements matter. I wonder if, when people go to vote, they're saying what does this person think? Because there's enough information out there, especially when you have high visibility races where people's names are already known and things are already known. But we'll be able to see more of this in August, right?
Sam Robinson:We are getting so close, guys, to this August 5 primary, get out there and register. If you guys have not yet, you can hop on the State of Michigan website. There Jocelyn Benson makes it so easy for us to register to vote online. There's a deadline that I can't remember off the top of my head to do that, but I believe you still can. But if you miss that deadline, go to your nearest place. There's a number of different ways to find out where you can go and sign up to register to vote. If you're on election day and you say, oh my gosh, I haven't changed my address, I'm not registered to vote, go to the clerk's office, go to one of those polling locations and you'll be able to register to vote on the spot. Michigan is one of several states that allows same-day registration. So take advantage, guys, because again, the whole purpose of us doing this show is to get people out and vote. It's get you to vote we got such a low turnout and get you to think about elections.
Sam Robinson:And to get you to think that you have power. 13% to 18% is not good enough.
Donna Givens Davidson:And I do have a request for Mayor Sheffield's campaign and the people who are leading the press Stop the unforced errors. You don't need to be in the news with the pinwheel on things you could have. And if these are not your flyers, don't allow people to use your email addresses of your campaign folks. You need more discipline in the campaigning process because it'll harm you. It's sort of one of those things where I think it impacts trust in the campaigning process because it'll harm you. It's sort of one of those things where I think it impacts trust in the candidate.
Donna Givens Davidson:When you see this kind of action, even if you can disagree with the UAW being here, it's like why do this? And then the question arises as mayor, how will you be accountable for a clean and transparent process? And I kind of saw that in the free press endorsement of Mary. They gave kind of a full-throated endorsement of Mary and then said listen, there's some transparency concerns and some other errors that we need you to address.
Donna Givens Davidson:It may be too late during this section. We expect her to go through to the general election and if you are in the general election, which I think everybody expects, there's time to clean it up and be more disciplined. Your team needs to be more disciplined. I won't imagine that she is looking at every post or scrutinizing everything before it goes out, but your team represents you and I think we can agree that these kind of errors are just shedding more heat than light. All right, so thank you for listening to the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. We do once again hope that you show up and vote in the general election and in this primary election, where the expectation for voter turnout is going to be really low 13 to 18 percent.
Sam Robinson:Daniel Baxter told me this week that's not good enough guys.
Donna Givens Davidson:I'm hoping it's going to be much greater than that. My hope is that, with so many changes underway, with so many options, people are going to be motivated to show up. Please prove me right and show up, because if you don't show up, then the few people who do show up are more likely to be political elites and their voices will matter when yours don't. It's not just a matter of form and you can't say Tweedledee and Tweedledum. Each choice makes a difference, and when people see that people on your block in your community of your demographic are not voting, they feel less compelled to support you.
Sam Robinson:Yeah, elections should not be decided by 80% of eligible voters who do not show up.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yes, so thank you so much for listening to the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. Be sure to like, rate and subscribe to our podcast on all platforms and, of course, support Black independent reporting on Detroit1millioncom because good journalism costs and, during this election cycle, support Sam in the Michigan Chronicle. You're doing an excellent job reporting there no-transcript.
