Authentically Detroit
Authentically Detroit is the leading podcast in the city for candid conversations, exchanging progressive ideas, and centering resident perspectives on current events.
Hosted by Donna Givens Davidson and Orlando P. Bailey.
Produced by Sarah Johnson and Engineered by Griffin Hutchings.
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Authentically Detroit
Black Detroit Democracy Podcast: From Congressional Race to Secretary of State with Adam Hollier
The Authentically Detroit Podcast Network in collaboration with Detroit One Million presents: The Black Detroit Democracy Podcast, hosted by Donna Givens Davidson and Sam Robinson!
Together, Donna and Sam illuminate the complexities of Detroit’s unique political landscape and give residents a resource for navigating civic engagement and election season.
On this episode, Adam Hollier joins Donna and Sam to discuss his decision to end his congressional race and instead join the race for Michigan Secretary of State. During the conversation Adam positions himself as uniquely qualified to protect Michigan’s electoral system against potential threats, highlighting his commitment to ensuring that votes will be counted fairly.
Together they dive into Detroit’s evolving political landscape through multiple lenses, including the possibility of Detroiters electing a woman as mayor for the first time. Adam also reveals his stance on the money out of politics movement and why he’s accepting donations from organizations like AIPAC during an ongoing genocide.
For more episodes of the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast, click here.
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Speaker 2:Detroit One Million is a journalism project started by Sam Robinson that centers a generation of Michiganders growing up in a state without a city with one million people. Support the only independent reporter covering the 2025 Detroit mayoral race through the lens of young people.
Speaker 3:Good journalism costs. Visit DetroitOneMillioncom to the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. Every week, we open this podcast with a reading of the preamble to the Detroit City Charter, read by the one and only Bryce Detroit. The City Charter is our constitution, which defines our rights and the way government should work. I'm Donna Givens-Davidson, president and CEO of Eastside Community Network.
Speaker 4:And I'm Sam Robinson, founder of Detroit. One Million.
Speaker 3:Thank you for listening in and supporting this expanded effort to build another platform of authentic voices for real people in the city of Detroit. We want you to like, rate and subscribe to our podcast on all platforms. The purpose of this podcast is to encourage Detroit citizens to stay vigilant in the fight for justice and equality. With a special call to action for Black Detroit, we seek to build awareness of our history as a gateway to freedom, a beacon for justice and a laboratory of liberation. This week, sam and I are joined by Adam Ollier to discuss his decision to run for Michigan Secretary of State and to not run for the 12th Congressional District. Adam, welcome to the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:Okay 13th right. Yes, I get the numbers wrong 13th, Maps are changed.
Speaker 5:Maps numbers are all difficult yeah they are.
Speaker 3:They are difficult, but hey, welcome. How are you today?
Speaker 5:I'm excellent. It's always good to be in a place where someone can pronounce my last name.
Speaker 3:Well, this is not your first time on an Authentically Detroit Podcast Network show, right? Hey, I appreciate it. So we got a little bit of practice here podcast network show right? Hey, I appreciate it. So we've got a little bit of practice here. But, Sam, how are you today?
Speaker 4:I'm good, it's a great day. My sub stack and my Twitter is going off about this core city story, this developer who has ties to Jeffrey Epstein, but it was a good morning today. I spent it at Cody High School with Suntiel Jenkins and Mary Sheffield. Suntiel endorsed Mary, you know, surprising, I guess a little bit.
Speaker 3:I'm not even a tiny bit surprised. It's expected. I mean, of course she did Suntil is a former president of Detroit City Council endorsing the current president of Detroit City Council and certainly they had differences of opinion and certainly personality differences.
Speaker 4:And I think that was it right, the policy they weren't far off.
Speaker 3:They weren't far off but the personality.
Speaker 4:We sort of understood that there was a contentious.
Speaker 3:And we'll talk with Adam about this. When you're running against somebody, you're not exactly praising them, like you know what Vote for me, but she's great too. Usually, we'll try to draw the distinction, and you don't run for office without believing you are the best representative for that office, and so I expect people to fight competitively and fiercely on the campaign battlefield, but when the battle is over, people who share a worldview can and should come together. What was really weird to me, though, was this quote from Mario Moro today. It really bothered me. I don't know why it bothered me so much, because I don't know why I really even pay attention to what he says but he basically said that. Let me see if I can find it.
Speaker 3:He said I would speculate to say that it was more of her advisors and supporters saying this is the route you need to go. Let's not sit on the fence, let's make a decision. In addition, this has to be very disappointing to Solomon Kinloch and his team. I think it is something they were hoping for either that Santill would endorse them or stay out of the race, he said. But that's politics Sometimes you endorse folks you really don't have passion for, but you do it because it's what you're being advised to do. That's such a weird statement.
Speaker 4:Especially because Greg Bowens is currently working for Kinloch period. And he was just working for Santil. So I mean, if you're going to say Colleen Robar is strong-arming Santil Jenkins, which I do not think, I'm putting that on the record because it's just ridiculous.
Speaker 3:I mean, these are paid advisors, but you're a more seasoned politician, adam, and it seems to me as though you're running against somebody for the same seat and you don't make it through the primaries. You endorse the person who best represents what you were trying to carry forward, don't you?
Speaker 5:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Or do you listen to your advisors and do things? I mean, if I'm running against you and I lose and I don't make it into the general election by a narrow margin, I'm not going to be passionate for anybody, I'm going to be pissed right. I mean, isn't that normal human?
Speaker 5:I think everybody responds differently. I'm grateful that folks like Santillo are willing to stay in the fight and do the right thing.
Speaker 3:Right, but what I mean folks like Santia are willing to stay in the fight and do the right thing. Yes, what I'm saying is that it's. Yes, I am grateful too, Let me say this. But I also don't think that it's reasonable to say that I don't know if she's passionate or this is what her advisors are telling her to do, as though somehow she cannot make an informed, professional, responsible decision all on her own, but she's being advised to do something against the grain, and that's what that kind of suggested to me. I didn't like that quote at all.
Speaker 4:I will say it was interesting. Today Dana Afan of the Detroit Free Press asked Santeel if she'd be interested in a cabinet position, a position within a Sheffield administration, and Santeel was pretty upfront in saying no, I'm not interested.
Speaker 4:I have not had time off to just spend with my family since I was 17 years old and I am really enjoying doing that now. And so I don't expect, you know, she's not going to be named the deputy mayor, she's not going to be, maybe not the head of the gun violence task force, and it's possible that she will.
Speaker 3:Sure, it's possible that she will. She just lost a competitive race. She needs time to deal with. What does that mean for me? You put all of your hopes and dreams, all of your money, all of your time into running for this seat and you did not make it to the next level. Let people heal. Don't expect people to be passionate for anybody but themselves. I was passionate for me to win and I didn't win. Why would I? I think the expectation is just weird. I think the whole presentation of that. I think that Durhall also is going to come out in the future?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think so. I think you have ESP. Yeah, but I will say it was quite the event today, with Mary wearing Santeel's signature purple, santeel wearing orange. They were coming together in the spirit of gun violence prevention and awareness, which obviously. Santeil has lost her brother by gun violence. At Cody High School, a tree that is now fully grown into this 20-something-year-old tree was planted in the name of her late brother, and so it was really kind of a wow scene to see her give compliment to Mary and say you know, this is an extension of what he would have wanted.
Speaker 3:I'm really really, really glad they came together, yeah. So yeah, we're going to talk about word on the street, and this is kind of the word.
Speaker 3:I guess that we're talking about? Talking about Adam? When you ran for 13th Congressional District last year, you were endorsed by Warren Evans and a lot of his supporters who are now lining up to support Kinloch, and when you were endorsed the first time, I think there was a feeling among many women in our community that the Boys Club had come together and selected somebody without really giving fair you know, equal opportunity to women who are running. Did you ever hear anything like that from people in the community?
Speaker 5:I mean I don't know that. I heard it frequently from folks in community. It was certainly a growing narrative in that discussion piece. I will say that there were a number of folks at the table, but I didn't set the table, I just showed up. I wasn't suggesting you, did I?
Speaker 3:was just looking at the optics to a lot of women who are my peers who really had a response to that in private. And now you have some of the same people lining up behind Kinloch and for many people it looks like it's the same thing, that it's anti-woman and that may not be the issue. Of course, he is a pastor and a revered pastor in the community with a large following, but I think that when you have certain people lining up, there's this feeling of they don't want women in charge. Have you heard any sentiment like that in the streets?
Speaker 5:I haven't. I mean I don't know what. Detroit, where women haven't been in charge. The city council president has been a woman.
Speaker 3:We've never had a mayor who's been a woman. I mean, that's not a small thing.
Speaker 5:I mean the majority of our congresswomen have.
Speaker 3:Most big cities have had a woman mayor.
Speaker 5:And we're probably about to.
Speaker 3:We're probably about to, but for women who don't see that representation, it feels different.
Speaker 4:I think Certainly was a part of Suntil's reasoning for backing Mary today. You know that was a big deal and it is a big deal. I think I was obviously not a part of the endorsement from the Michigan Chronicle but a part of Jeremy Allen and I'm certain Hiram Jackson's thought going into that was let's have the race be between two women. They endorsed Antille Jenkins and Mary Sheffield.
Speaker 3:I think that they also probably thought that they were more qualified. You think there's a number of people who believe that People are starting to see the writing on the wall.
Speaker 4:52% is a margin that, unless you have a tidal wave and I'm not seeing the tidal wave for Kinloch he has his supporters, I think, to get past Santeel and Todd Perkins. I think that was a major victory for Triumph Church I really do. But it is going to take something that I just haven't seen yet to get them even back into a competitive space.
Speaker 3:I agree with that. I don't think it's going to happen. I think that Mary Sheffield is going to be the next mayor of the city of Detroit and I think that there are perspectives. Everybody has their own preferences and I can't tell people what to prefer. I hate to see the division between men and women in our community and I hate to see the division and the feeling that a lot of women have that there is opposition to women at the top job in the city.
Speaker 3:Understanding that we've been many other places, right. But you know, when Barack Obama became president, people didn't say well, you've had black congressmen and black senators. President, was that unique executive space that a black person had never occupied? Likewise, mayor, is that one space that a black woman has never occupied in a majority black city, in a city where most of the voters are women? And so it feels like maybe this is our time. I know that my mother, had my mother been alive right now, would be very excited to see a woman in that role because, you know, I think sometimes it feels like there's marginalization, and so to see Mary and Santil come together feels very affirming to a lot of young women and older women, Although I do know that Ken Leck has women in his corner as well.
Speaker 3:Brenda Lawrence for example, is supporting him and others. So I'm not suggesting that all of his supporters are men, but it does feel as though there is this division, to some extent, between men and women and who they're supporting publicly, at least on my Facebook feed.
Speaker 4:It's interesting too. I think there's a division between the supporters. Also, I see some really progressive Kinloch supporters that are taking the UAW language and really were excited about Sean Fain and thinking that maybe this campaign was going to go in a leftward direction and it hasn't. After the primary Kinloch, his first thing was to talk about the power of the prayer getting him past the primary and crime in Detroit. It was really a. Are you trying to pick up James Craig's voters?
Speaker 1:Who were those With a swing?
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:I don't know who those people are.
Speaker 3:That's what I tried to ask who were they.
Speaker 4:It was such a small percentage that I'm not sure why he would go for those voters?
Speaker 5:That's a great question. I don't know who those people are.
Speaker 4:But I asked on Teal today did you talk to ken lock? She said yes, I asked her. Did he ask you to endorse him? She did not answer that question.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, obviously she wasn't interested I love the fact that you ask all the questions. People want answers.
Speaker 4:She didn't answer that part, that's the news um, but we're gonna ask adam some questions today, one of the questions, but before we get to that, we have another word on the street item um trump right, trump's the other one.
Speaker 3:Why Trump isn't talking about enforcement in Detroit yet? Oh, yes, duggan was on CNN yesterday.
Speaker 4:Yes, duggan's on CNN, he was on CNN a couple times, the one time the MLive headline. That was kind of a terrible headline. The headline was Duggan credits Trump for crime decrease and he just didn't. He was asked a question that was why do you think Trump hasn't targeted Detroit? And he said well, the federal law enforcement agents are already here. We've been working hand-in-hand with them. Dpd works with ATF and the DEA. I think, this was earlier. The answer yesterday was a little different.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this wasn't, I think people felt he. The answer yesterday was a little different. This was yeah, this was. I think people felt.
Speaker 4:He was not crediting the Trump administration for the decrease in crime. He at no point did that in the first iteration, in the first iteration.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the point that a lot of people had was they wanted to see community violence intervention recognized as a significant contributor to crime decrease. I do agree that that was a distorted statement and that people are trying to run with things. I think there are actual things to disagree with Duggan about. You don't have to use those disagreements right. I think that sometimes it weakens your argument when you have gotchas like that and then the gotchas don't end up having substance behind them?
Speaker 4:I think it really does. Yeah, he said today and it is interesting talking to Gabby Santiago Romero over the course of just the last three months about whether or not the city should declare itself a sanctuary city. She has actually agreed with Mike Duggan in saying we shouldn't declare ourselves a sanctuary city to draw unneeded attention to us.
Speaker 3:So I think, beyond not declaring ourselves a sanctuary city, detroit police officers have been assisting ICE and other agents in their detainment or arrest of people who are undocumented in our community, and that's actually in violation of the ordinance an ordinance the city passed that the police would not participate and so I think that there are some other nuanced factors.
Speaker 3:I think that there are people that go after Trump. Trump has a very fragile ego, and so if you say things that directly attack Trump, then he comes at you, and I think that the governor and the mayor of Detroit have taken the stance of we're not going to directly attack him and we're not going to make ourselves the enemy. I mean, look what's happening in Illinois, and I'm not saying that he won't eventually be here, and I'm not saying that silence or the ability to get along with Trump is a smart strategy, because down the road, some people might say that the failure of big cities to come together and to resist them all at once is contributing to, you know, is somehow perpetuating some of the violence that happens, or enabling it. What are your thoughts, adam? It looks like you have something to say, I mean.
Speaker 5:I think that if I was a mayor, I would be doing all the things to make sure that the laws were enforced and that my constituents, my neighbors, were protected. And that does mean pushing back against Donald Trump in a real and meaningful way. Right, I'll take a little soundtrack. I mean, you look at it, the court said that his use of the National Guard in LA was illegal. Right, the more that we push back on these things, the more that it's going to be challenged.
Speaker 5:But I also think it's important to call them to grips on what they're using things. Right, like I'm an Army reservist. Right Like the cost of sending folks onto active duty is not insignificant. And if you are going to deploy the National Guard to a country, to a place in the US, right like there are real requirements that that entails. There are real issues that it presents for their service members. But also, what are you getting out of it? Right, in DC, they're like they're doing lawn care after federal workers were fired to do that work. Right, like those are the most expensive lawn maintenance teams that we have. Right, those are the most expensive lawn maintenance teams that we have. If you're going to allow those kind of things to happen. I think you have to call out not only what are they doing, why are they there, but the fact that they're going into black cities.
Speaker 3:And not just cities that are primarily black but led by black people, are you suggesting? Well, I hear two things there. One of them is the fact that Detroit is not led by a black person. May be one of the things that is protecting Detroit. The other thing I'm hearing Explicitly saying You're explicitly saying that. Ok, yes, thank you for being explicit, and the other thing I think you're saying is that the mayor has a responsibility to speak out on behalf of its constituents.
Speaker 5:A hundred percent and again, I don't second guess how they speak out, just that they do Right, and we all have different feedbacks and opinions on how these things are run. But if the National Guard were coming to Detroit, I think there are a lot of real challenges that that presents. I know that the mayor was very hesitant about National Guard troops being deployed to the city of Detroit during the COVID-19 pandemic for a variety of reasons deployed to the city of Detroit during the COVID-19 pandemic for a variety of reasons and so I would be shocked if he wasn't in outrage if the same thing were happening right now.
Speaker 3:Right, but he is not speaking out and that is not his way. He's actually running for governor, I think, on the idea that people are tired of extremes on both the right and the left, and he's going to be the broker of peace between MAGA and progressives.
Speaker 4:It's about the issues. Instead of answering some of these questions that he's getting posed by us or by CNN, he's deferring to. Well, this isn't what my supporters and voters are asking of me. They're not asking me to answer these questions. They're asking me to keep my lights on or to do this or that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I understand that. And yet, if you look at the budget bill, at the state right now, you have the house that is determined to do a whole lot of things, along with Karen Whitsitt, that would be very harmful to everything he says he cares about, and you have the Senate I don't know trying to figure, find its way.
Speaker 4:I don't know. It's very easy for him to blame both sides.
Speaker 3:It's very easy to blame both sides, but one side has a very radical bill that would be very harmful to the way of life of Detroiters and actually Detroit itself, and one is really struggling to move its agenda forward. And so this both sides argument is, though, what you're doing is brokering peace between people who are doing the same thing. And so this both sides argument is, though, what you're doing is brokering peace between people who are doing the same thing, and somehow they're both being obstinate, is not true. In fact, it feels as though even on the House side and you were in the state Senate right, and so at the state, in the House side, though, when you were a state legislator the state legislature has never been really, really radically left, has it? Certainly not in my lifetime.
Speaker 5:Donna, let's level set here. The state Senate has only had a Democratic majority leader one time for any day that I've been alive, and that's right now, right. So in the almost 40 years that I've been alive, winnie Brinks has been the only Democratic majority leader. So this is as far left, as far progressive, as far Democratic as the state Senate has been in the last 40 years.
Speaker 3:But the narrative and the rhetoric is that the left is going too far and I'm like where is it going? Can I follow it? Because I don't see anything.
Speaker 5:I certainly am not saying that with our state legislature.
Speaker 3:I feel like our state legislature is very centrist. I feel like the Democrats are very centrist in our state legislature. Not all of the people, but the functioning of the body itself, when it's led by Democrats, is a centrist.
Speaker 4:The reason why you had that narrative is because they needed Dylan Weigler and Emily Dievendorf on specific bills that they couldn't get them along with. And Duggan has, on CNN on the phone with me, has started to say publicly that during that time he was advising Joe Tate to stop working with Dylan and Emily. Dylan and Emily told me that they would try to contact Governor Whitmer and the governor wouldn't even answer their calls. I mean, let me say this I'm sorry, donna, go on.
Speaker 5:Joe Tate has been maligned as a speaker in a way that I think is fundamentally unfair, because he was a black man right, you look at what Matt Hall has done as the speaker and how dysfunctional our government has been since then.
Speaker 5:Joe Tate had a one seat majority and was able to get all kinds of things done in two years. You look at the federal government and the Republican speakers that they've had. None of them have been able to get anywhere near as much done, and so I just have to take this moment to say that and bring that up as we talk about this moment. It's also unfair to demonize, you know, Dylan and Emily and some of these other folks. They were fighting for their beliefs. What we've got to do is figure out a way to get the policies that matter most to us done and across the French line.
Speaker 3:Here's the thing about Joe Tate. I'm going to say this, right, and I hear you and I appreciate what you're saying. Joe Tate, when he was first running, I got to ECN and we talked and he asked me my opinions and, as you know, I share them freely, really.
Speaker 5:Yes, you know, I really thought that that was not really your thing. You like to hold it close to your chest.
Speaker 3:Very close, very close. I don't like for people to know what I think, because you and I have had conversations right.
Speaker 3:Yes we have. When you were in the state Senate, even if I disagreed with you, you'd pick up the phone if I called you. I better Joe Tate never did. And the problem with Joe Tate is that his Black constituency, his progressive constituency, felt abandoned by him. When I saw him in Mackinac at the policy conference, in a reception that was organized by a Black woman, he was surrounded by white men and he waved at me from afar and then walked in the other direction. His people kept trying to put me with him. So the fact that he's being maligned is not just his behavior as Speaker of the House, it's behavior as representative of people, because he has, throughout that entire time, been my representative. And my representative should be willing to speak to me. And if he's not willing to speak to me, I run a nonprofit. He knows who I am. What about?
Speaker 5:Everybody knows who you are, donna, especially on the east side, like if they don't know who you are, they do not live over here, right?
Speaker 3:So if you're not speaking to me, what about Mrs Jones over here? Where is the feeling of representation? I over here. Where is the feeling of representation? I think that's where Democratic leaders have sometimes fallen off. Things that are of great concern to people were sometimes sidelined on the agenda. That said, because we know that he has not been a radical left winger, it doesn't make sense to suggest that a moderate, centrist human being can go to Lansing and just make nice with everybody. I think Duggan is overselling his capacity to work with MAGA and not bend the knee to Donald Trump. Even Republicans who run for office cannot work with MAGA without bending the knee to Donald.
Speaker 4:Trump. I just wonder if they could both come to agree that if he were to somehow get in office which I say somehow, but it's sort of becoming more realistic as the weeks go on If he were to get in office, could both parties sort of conspire together just to say we're not going to let this guy succeed? And I think you perhaps have seen that in other. I'm not as old.
Speaker 3:We saw that with. We saw. There was independent governors in the past that have been stymied Democrats will never do that, because Democrats will always try to do the right thing.
Speaker 4:Will they let's just be honest.
Speaker 3:Are you sure when I say I?
Speaker 5:mean I'm certainly going to try and do the right thing. The responsibility to Donna's point. We got too many people who need to eat. They need to get their kids to school.
Speaker 3:I don't mean that as a compliment, though, Adam. So I want to be really clear when I say try to do the right thing. Sometimes Democrats do not do the courageous thing to appear to be good or nice or balanced. There's times when I'm on a national level when we talked about filibuster rules. Well, we don't want to do that, because what if Republicans get in charge?
Speaker 4:Well, can I just bring something up? Can I just bring something up?
Speaker 3:can I just?
Speaker 5:bring something. You don't hear anybody talking about getting rid of filibuster today. They don't need it 2022.
Speaker 4:Republicans wanted to do one thing and democrats wanted to do the other, and you guys blamed each other for the issues both sides cared about you. Remember this one issue sam I, we could have gotten a reduction on our gas.
Speaker 5:I was very clear. I was like I'll introduce that tomorrow I'm in. But you know what I'm saying it's gamesmanship that goes on. It's about having people, to Donna's point, who are willing to be courageous and do the work Right. Like everybody don't love me.
Speaker 4:But in these moments, we have to elevate people who are going to do their work.
Speaker 3:People would criticize you for just that, though People would criticize you for doing just that Acknowledge that your first vote when you made it to the Michigan Senate I did not love.
Speaker 5:No, you didn't.
Speaker 3:And I told you that.
Speaker 5:Yes, you did and you knew it.
Speaker 3:But you still answered my phone calls and you still came here today.
Speaker 5:And I came and talked about it and will continue to do.
Speaker 3:We're not going to talk about that today because we have other things to talk about.
Speaker 4:I admire politicians that will do that. Because a lot of them now just hide behind the glass ceiling I do want to honor you for always being a politician who's willing to listen to criticism.
Speaker 3:I don't believe leadership be thin skinned. If you're elected to office, you're supposed to hear from constituents and not just people who like you. But I think my critique is I just got done reading these books by David Daly, and he talks about how there has been some real intentionality after Barack Obama was elected in 2008. The Republican Party decided what we're going to do is we're going to focus on races in these few states so that we can turn the state legislatures Republican in advance of the 2010 census, because then, during the census years, they're going to have to redistrict and when they redistrict, the Republican legislatures will be in charge of this redistricting and they will wipe out any type of democratic progress that's being made in these states. And so, while Barack Obama in 2012 won with similar margins to 2008. The legislative votes went completely different ways and people blamed him and said well, he did not spend enough time investing in—.
Speaker 5:Well, he's a black man. They blame him because he was wearing a tan suit. He woke up that day. They were like man?
Speaker 3:Well, absolutely, but also Democrats blamed him, saying he did not invest enough in helping support legislative people, the legislators.
Speaker 3:What they didn't understand and I don't think most people understood is that by the time 2012 came along actually in 2010, it started the state legislatures had been redrawn in such a way, the legislative seats have been gerrymandered in such a way and you see Donald Trump doing that now to prevent a win that it's not just what's on the airwaves, it's not just, you know, stupid Republicans and all of this other kind of stuff that people try to put out there people voting against their interests. It is that people who share interest around some justice issues have been packed into districts in such a way that their voices have been marginalized at the state level. So we're going to take a break and come back and talk about this congressional seat. I want to talk about something else, though, with you, and I want to talk about redistricting in Michigan and the fight that you had against redistricting. In light of this information that I just talked about, because it gave me a whole new perspective on the redistricting fight, we're going to take a break and be right back.
Speaker 2:Have you ever dreamed of being on the airwaves? Well, the Authentically Detroit Podcast Network is here to make those dreams come true. Formerly known as the Deep Network and located inside the Stoudemire, the Authentically Detroit Podcast Network offers studio space and production staff. To help get your idea off of the ground, just visit authenticallydetcom and send a request through the contact page.
Speaker 3:And we're back with Adam Ollier once again talking about politics and democratic politics in Michigan. And who knows better than Adam, who has served as a state senator and who's run for congressional office a couple of times? The criticisms that happened after redistricting happened in the state of Michigan was people felt like there was an intentional act to reduce the number of blacks-only districts there was.
Speaker 3:And that that was harming black people. It did, but in reality, when Republicans want to gerrymander and reduce black voices, they create black districts, and the creation of blacks only districts is what's called packing these districts with black folks with the intent of marginalizing their voices at the state level. So we saw two things happen with redistricting. One, we saw that for the first time in 40 years, you had a Democratic majority in the House and Senate as well as a governor right, and we saw less Black representation. And so my question is if you have a few Black people in Lansing who don't have the power to really move a vote, is that representation? Or is representation when you have people who are elected to represent your district and who are there in enough numbers to move a vote?
Speaker 5:I think that's a false choice. So when we have this thing, the idea that you're discussing is there are two kind of technical terms for that. So there's packing, so that's when you put all of one demographic into the smallest number of districts. So that's what they're proposing to do in.
Speaker 3:Texas. That's what Michigan had done, though. So that's what they're proposing to do in Texas. Well, that's what Michigan had done, though, Under previous legislatures. Can we acknowledge that the Michigan state legislature had packed black people into the smallest number of districts possible?
Speaker 5:So again, there's some real challenges with what that looks like Because of some of the things that we've talked about in the past, like housing discrimination. Black voters live in the same spaces when we traditionally talk about what packing looks like. It's a very intentional thing where you are going out of your way to decrease the number Like connecting the 13th congressional district.
Speaker 3:Hold on Let me get there District. Going from Detroit to Pontiac is not packing.
Speaker 5:No, okay, no. So in many ways it would be the opposite. So when you start talking about packing, it would have been trying to get all of those black voters into one district. So the way that they extended to make the old 13th and 14th would have been pretty normal. Now, the shape is a balancing act. So when you draw maps, there is this idea that maps should look neat and clean, like boxes and rectangles, but that's not how cities look, that's not how people look. And clean like boxes and rectangles, but that's not how cities look, that's not how people look, right. So do you want the districts to be representative of people or do you want them to be representative of easy geometric designs or to go along?
Speaker 3:naturally, of course, we wanted to be representative of people, but when you have lines and there were demographers who pointed out that gerrymandering took place in Michigan it did Prior to this voters not voting 100%. That gerrymandering marginalized Democratic voters at the state level for decades.
Speaker 5:It did, and so and they blame the idea that they are trying to make majority minority districts, and that is just not true. You can do both of those things, and so when you look at the state legislative maps, the House and the Senate maps, you could have drawn districts that both had a representative number of black legislators and a balanced Democratic fold. That was very much so doable. What the commission did the first time was called cracking. So you know my old state Senate seat, right Like I represented, from Grosse Pointe above 94, back to Boston Edison, all the way down in southwest Detroit. That was kind of a weird shape. But my Senate district right now has Kevin Hertel, stephanie Chang, paul Voino, veronica Kleinfeld, mallory McMorrow, erica Geis and maybe a tiny bit of Sylvia Sande, erica Geis and maybe a tiny bit of Sylvia Sandeep, right Like we're talking about five or we're talking about six members of the state Senate that now represent a portion of the district that I represent.
Speaker 3:And I ask you a question about that those six senators, how many of them are Republicans?
Speaker 3:None of them, ok, but how many of them live in Detroit? Well, I'm not saying they do I'm, you know I'm getting at something and I'm not. Yeah, well, I'm not saying they do. I'm, you know I'm getting at something and I'm not defending it. I'm getting at the fact that you're balancing those two things right, because you ended up having, say, six people replacing one person in a single geography, and I know it's not as simple as that, but we did get more Democrats into the state.
Speaker 5:But the majority was not made by any of the Detroit seats, so the majority in the Senate was made by Midland in Saginaw Bay City. It was made in Ann Arbor.
Speaker 3:So we had a similar majority beforehand.
Speaker 5:I'm saying when they redrew these Senate maps, the current Senate maps that are going to be this, that are going to go into effect in this next election, will still allow for Democrats to take a majority, because the majority was not made in the city of Detroit. Right the house maps. None of those majorities were made in the city of Detroit. None of those competitive districts included the city of Detroit. They just put Democratic voters in South Oakland County and South Macomb into Detroit.
Speaker 5:Right, if they had wanted to do what we're talking about in balancing some of those kinds of things, you could have brought Republicans in Northern Oakland County down into districts in the southern Oakland County.
Speaker 5:That is the way that you'd get some actual balance, because Republicans don't live across the state in any real populations near primarily black communities In between. Every primarily black community is a set of white voters, a set of white communities, whether that's Ferndale, royal Oak in Oakland County, that's Warren and East Point and all those kind of things. In Macomb is the entire Down River community, before you get into some of those Republican communities. It was doing things like splitting Redford and Livonia into three state rep districts that all ended up with white members. That's what the commission did because the advice they were told was this idea that they had to unpack black voters and packing was originally done when there could have been two or three seats that would have been black or whatever and they made 80 percent black seat. They made they could make two 45 to 50 percent seats. And that's not what they did here in Detroit when they drew those state House and state Senate districts. They made a bunch of 35 percent black.
Speaker 3:But now we don't have those 35 percent black districts.
Speaker 5:And we also don't have those members Right. So the the new state rep maps didn't. We didn't lose any Detroiters and more of them were able to get elected.
Speaker 3:So let me, let me we'll talk about that a little bit more, because I think the other challenge is that black people running for office have to learn how to run and win in white communities, and I think that Donovan McKinney is an example of somebody who could and did, somebody who could and did. I think that you know, although she's not black, rashida Tlaib is somebody who has been able to cross over because of the ways and the issues that she's taken up. I think that we have got to change our politics in order to be competitive in these races, as opposed to assuming that, because, also, black people don't live together anymore like we used to. 20 years ago, we all lived in the same communities. Now we are so spread out that the majority of black people in Metro Detroit don't live inside the city of Detroit, and I think that's impacted some of these conversations. But let's talk about you.
Speaker 4:You're not running anymore. I stole it from you.
Speaker 3:Pardon me.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you go ahead.
Speaker 3:Oh, go on, you say it no.
Speaker 4:Well, I got the scoop first, thanks to you. Oh okay, yeah, it was, and I delivered that to his phone that same day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, yeah. So when I saw you I had to tell Sam, because we had just talked about this race last week on Black Detroit Democracy Project. We talked about the fact that one of the people may be leaving the race and then you told me it was you, and that was a surprise to me. I didn't think that was going to happen. I had also heard that Mary Waters is considering entering that race Was Mary Waters consideration one of the reasons you decided to step aside?
Speaker 5:No, I think this was the right fit for me, so I guess we should be clear I'm Adam Olia.
Speaker 5:And today I announced that I'm running for secretary of state, for anybody that doesn't know, not running for Congress in the 13th congressional district? I'm running because when I was talking to voters time and time again they were like are we even going to have an election? Is that really going to happen? Right, this is not about Donovan, it's not about the 13th. This was about being where the right fight is, as we have talked about who is going to push back, who is going to exercise the kind of courage and backbone necessary to step up and say to the Trump administration no, we're not going to do that. Yes, we're going to have elections. Yes, your ballot is going to be counted, and honestly, as what would be the only veteran on the statewide ticket, I think it's important to have people who can speak up with expertise and knowledge about some of the things that the federal government is talking about doing, from all of those things, because, yes, the Secretary of State has a specific set of requirements, but, as you've seen from Jocelyn, a big part of that is also representing the state, and I think I would be doing a great job, especially as we talk about some of these things, as the president continues to push back and say oh, yeah, we're just going to deploy the National Guard in crazy ways.
Speaker 3:So let's talk about this for a minute. I want to talk about the 13th Congressional District and the fact that we do have a couple of people at least one person that we know of is running against Shreve Anadar, and that is Donovan McKinney, and we also have the possibility of Mary Watchers entering the race. Do you see yourself making an endorsement in that district?
Speaker 5:What I'd like to do is to kind of support the kind of efforts to bring folks together. I don't think that it happened in 22 in a real and meaningful way, as we started this conversation in 24. And the best way to do that is to come together with some of these leaders and say, hey, look, what do we need to do to organize and get people back in the same page. Because I think I can also say that I would be maybe the only person who's been willing to say, hey, we do need to have a black member of Congress, and it doesn't necessarily have to be me.
Speaker 4:Right but you don't have a preference. That was an interesting part of your statement yesterday.
Speaker 3:Right, you don't have a preference at this point. You don't believe that Donovan McKinney is that person?
Speaker 5:I'm certainly not saying that, okay. I'm saying that the best way to get a process done is for people to feel like it is not already baked, that people can come into a room and give everybody who wants to do this an opportunity to compete for it. Now, if you're asking me how I personally feel about Donovan, I supported him every time he's been on the ballot. He's a good friend of mine and I wish him the absolute best. If you're talking about who is the right person in the 13th congressional district, it is the person that we can get to win, that we as a community can come together and support, and I'm hopeful that we'll be able to do that sooner rather than later.
Speaker 3:So there's other people who also may enter the race. I've heard rumors. That's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing a lot of rumors.
Speaker 5:I don't talk about what other people are going to do or can't do.
Speaker 3:I've heard rumors. I got a question for you.
Speaker 4:One of the biggest differences I mean the main difference really in the sort of race that you've ended. Obviously, agogo and Barb are standing there attempting to seek the nomination. Of course, for our listeners, explain how you're nominated to be Secretary of State.
Speaker 5:This is a convention thing. So next April you have to be a member of the Democratic Party, you have to show up to nominating convention and stay long enough to vote.
Speaker 4:I'm seeing part of what separated you and Donovan in a go-go's campaign website this morning and just my conversations with him talking about he's not accepting corporate PAC money. The biggest difference was Donovan's position on the war in Gaza and yours, and I guess at this point, what is your position and how do you feel about the criticism that you've received for your position on that issue? Rephrase Well what is your position on the war Gaza? Is it a genocide?
Speaker 5:No, I think I'm a captain in the army, right? Genocide is a very technical term, right? I come to this from a very different-.
Speaker 3:So if you just kill all the Palestinians, isn't that genocide, unless it's done in a certain way?
Speaker 5:I think words matter and how we use words matter. If you're asking me, donna. If you're asking me if I think that there should be stopped. Yes, if you're asking, should we be doing more for Palestinian children, parents? Yes, that does not require using a word that is super loaded and means very different things to very different people, right, and I think that, as we use terminology, it matters.
Speaker 3:I think you know. I've talked to some people who are Jewish who say that you can't use words like concentration camps or genocide. But this is what genocide is considered it's the intentional and systematic destruction of a national, ethnic, racial or religious group in whole or in part. That is the legal definition the intentional and systematic destruction of a national, ethnic, racial or religious group in whole or in part. So are you saying that you do not believe that Israel is intentionally destroying a national, ethnic, racial or religious group in whole or in part in Palestine?
Speaker 3:I do not Okay and I think that right now, I think-.
Speaker 4:People get stuck on that issue, Adam, and then it eliminates their ability to vote for you.
Speaker 3:And I told you that. I told you that I think that-.
Speaker 4:And it's going to be up to you to figure out whether there's enough people. There's no way you're bombing hospitals.
Speaker 3:There's no way you're cutting off food supplies. There's no way that you're letting people starve. There's no way that 60, how can people trust you to have justice, values whose lives matter to you?
Speaker 5:I think I've been very clear with how I believe and how I talk about protecting people, and I think again as you get into hey, are we using this word or not? That is not about action, that is not about guns? No, it's not.
Speaker 3:If you can't call something, something, see, if you don't call it genocide and you call it warfare, but only one side is fighting really and has the ability to fight and the other side is being wiped out, then it permits certain things to happen. If you don't call a thing, a thing like, if you don't say this is racism, then racism can contribute, then racism can contribute. I believe all people should be people who consider themselves colorblind to racism and say well, I believe all people should be treated differently, but that's not racism. That's how you get the voting rights dismantled, because voting racism doesn't exist, and I don't have to use that word, and I've heard Mike Duggan say on several different occasions he does not use the word racism because it's provocative. And so I guess my question is what is your personal definition of genocide?
Speaker 5:I don't use a personal definition of genocide. I'm a military officer. We have definitions for these things.
Speaker 3:What is a military officer definition for genocide?
Speaker 5:I mean, I'm not going to. I'd have to pull it up so that I could read it to you verbatim. It is not what is going on in Gaza side. I mean, I'm not going to. I'd have to pull it up so that I could read it to you verbatim. It is not what is going on in Gaza.
Speaker 4:And I guess what is going on in Gaza, because we see it on our phones every day. Right, I don't know that. The right kids starving and their bones are sticking out of their skin. Right, you see the people on the fences clanging the pots for food, right, is it Hamas that's stealing their food? Is that what you?
Speaker 5:believe. I don't think that I am the arbiter for what this is or is not. I just want to.
Speaker 3:I'm running for secretary we can move on, but I just want to point out that the US military definition has two parts Special intent the perpetrator must intend to destroy an entirely or partially national, ethnic, racial or religious group. Victims are targeted based on their actual perceived group membership. And two the perpetrator must commit at least one of five actions killing group members. Causing serious physical or mental harm to group members. Creating conditions of life intended to cause the group's physical destruction in whole or in part. Implementing measures to prevent bursts within the group or forcibly moving children from the group to another group.
Speaker 3:Now, it is impossible for me to watch the news and not see that as genocide. And there are many people who believe that the reason that you have taken up the definitions you take up is because you have been supported by AIPAC and that that has compromised your vision. I'm not sure that that matters in a state electoral thing, because I think, ultimately, what's going to happen at the state convention is that Democratic voters are going to show up and have to decide who best represents us. But I think that there is a growing movement among many people to say that people who are, you know, not taking a stance, that this is, you know, horrible and needs to stop.
Speaker 4:There's a real growing divide, and that's something that I had reported on on my website back in February During the Michigan Democratic Convention, I think later next year how many Michiganders feel the same way that you do, Donna, on the issue? We will learn more about that in the US Senate race between Haley and Abdul and Mallory McMurrow. I think all sides of that issue are represented in every nuance of it.
Speaker 3:I just want to close out this discussion by saying training emphasizes the specific intent to destroy or protect a group is key, and the acts are not limited to mass killings, but include imposing destructive conditions. Their prohibition applies universally and individuals are accountable regardless of rank, so it's a universal definition, not just for Jewish people or other people. We've decided to protect, Not just for Jewish people or other people. We've decided to protect. Moving on, though, about the Secretary of State position you have said that you're interested in helping to protect the right to vote and that people's rights feel very threatened right now. We have also got Igogo. Is that how you pronounce his name?
Speaker 4:Igogo Adebie. Adebie who is currently working as the Deputy Secretary of State.
Speaker 3:Why would you be better than Igogo in this position.
Speaker 5:I have real experience as a legislator, as an administrator in a statewide position, having run the Michigan Veterans Affairs Agency, and have been in these fights for years, which fights as we start talking about both redistricting when we were talking about the voter reforms on 2020, when Donald Trump was pushing hard to stop votes counting and all those kind of things. I was down at the TCF Center when we were talking about the reforms to our voter program, how we do all those kind of things. I was a sponsor and co-sponsor on those legislative packages and worked really hard to get the changes that were needed.
Speaker 4:Why are you better than Barb? That's my next question. I spent time in Lansing to know.
Speaker 4:Barb as the Ingham County prosecutor that makes a lot of noise and goes viral on Twitter, and she has certainly for a number of years been sort of looked at in Lansing as, oh, she's going to be the Democrat's choice, why not her? There's a lot of question marks about some of her background. If she were to be in front of a Republican candidate, what would be said about Barb? Obviously, the story about her son is what I'm referring to.
Speaker 5:Again, I think, as you talk about it, I think my military service plays a huge role when we start talking about pushing back, being able to speak up on the big fights, but also my ability as a legislator and the relationships that I've had and the ability to get things done in a bipartisan fashion, which we have seen is becoming increasingly important, because Michigan voters have, over the last couple cycles, passed a number of ballot initiatives that have been really important, and the implementation on those require a lot of legislative fixes, things that I know that I'll be able to do really well as a Secretary of State, also one of the things that is unique to me, as I said on the Transportation Committee both the appropriation side and the Policy Committee I worked with the Secretary of State's office on a number of things as we start talking about licensing and IDs, and so I know it's easy to think about the Secretary of State as only the election space, but most people interact primarily with the DMV functions and that, as Donna, you and I have talked about many a times, having a license is your key to be able to do just about anything right and being able to have good plates, being able to do all the things necessary to participate as a human in this state is going to be critical over the coming years, especially as we continue to see the federal government push back and pull people over and ask them where their papers are.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think about your relationship with Tom Barrett in the legislature which was sort of publicized in Lansing as the you know. Oh, these counterparts Republican and Democrats, you would have never thought that they'd be buddies, but they're, you know, got army background. You know you were talking earlier about just the application of National Guardsmen to US cities. I wonder, you know, when you were there, was that ever a topic? Obviously there's so many situations in which that could happen.
Speaker 5:No one has ever thought about using the National Guard the way the president is talking about using the National Guard.
Speaker 4:Really as a political tool.
Speaker 5:Right. This has never happened. God willing, it'll never happen again. You'll remember Republicans in the legislature were saying that Joe Biden was politicizing the National Guard when they deployed National Guard members after January 6th, after they were deployed in a real and meaningful way across the country to combat the COVID-19 pandemic. Never in my lifetime, in our lifetimes, has a National Guard ever been used as a political whipping stick.
Speaker 3:No, I mean, I think in my childhood, when you had the rebellions in big cities, the National Guard was here and it was a pretty terrifying memory. The National Guard in the city of Detroit is like. One of my first memories was tanks rolling down the street and they stopped my dad. They stopped my dad, had a you know shotgun up to his head or whatever. And where are you going? And he said I'm taking my family out of the city One of my first memories. And so the idea of the National Guard descending on Detroit is horrifying to me.
Speaker 4:It's not something-. Yeah, it's interesting that you bring up the COVID-19 pandemic and the use of the National Guard which I was there at these huge mass vaccination clinics. Remember I covered when I was at the Ann Arbor News at the time in Jackson Michigan. It was a huge one and they had hundreds of people every day coming there and it was, you know, in there. You know it was like National Guard's people giving people shots, you know. Oh really, yeah, it was like in their fatigues and everything yeah, they just weren't in Detroit and they weren't in.
Speaker 5:Detroit because the mayor had deep concerns about how people were going to perceive the National Guard in Detroit right, and you know they were talking about well, maybe we just don't have them in uniform and you know those are the kind of things, but the National Guard were deployed all across the state and all across the country.
Speaker 3:You know, I mean, I have family members who were part of the Michigan Guard, right, and so they're good people. You know, one of them is—both of them actually are in health care. One of them is a nurse, anesthetist and the other one is a dentist. But they're also members of the Michigan Guard. I don't know if they're still—I don't know if they're active but you have people from all walks of life who are from the community, who can do those things. But that's a lot different than what the mayor is proposing, right. I mean the president is proposing. I want to talk about ballot initiatives, because you mentioned them. We already talked about one and that was the redistricting nonpartisan redistricting. There's a couple that are coming up. They're really near and dear to me. One of them is Invest in Michigan's Kids. Are you familiar with that one?
Speaker 5:I signed it.
Speaker 3:Oh, did you, hey? What about that? And the other one is Money Out of Politics and that is through, among other people, organizations, voters, not politicians is endorsing that. Are you going to sign that one as well, Probably. What do you think about it?
Speaker 5:I think we should be doing everything we can to make our elections more accountable, and, as long as we have an even playing field, I want us to do that. It would be great, as a candidate, to have to spend less time trying to raise money. It would be great for people to be able to go to one simple place and find information about who's given and who's not given, and I would support any level of transparency. I think that if we can make Michigan a bastion for that, it's going to be impactful and would love to see it.
Speaker 4:You know that Michigan is currently not a bastion for that. It is the worst transparency state.
Speaker 5:A lot of those functions I think can and should fall under the Secretary of State.
Speaker 4:They do in normal places. Would you subject the governor and the legislature? I was a sponsor.
Speaker 5:With Jeremy, I was a sponsor of that legislation.
Speaker 3:What legislation were you a?
Speaker 5:sponsor of. It was part of the Sunshine Package to make the governor and the legislature fouriable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, everybody wants for office, I know, and everybody wants for office and they say, hey, when I get in this office I'm going to be transparent. And they get in the office and they discover that the it's a lot easier not to be the powers of opacity, right, like, oh, I don't have to tell people stuff.
Speaker 5:You can take that to the bank. You know that's never been me. You have never called and not gotten a call back.
Speaker 3:I've acknowledged that we are still having this conversation.
Speaker 4:Keep that going, man Like forever Keep, keep that. My number hasn't changed.
Speaker 3:That's what people need. People need to be able to have you know. I really think that the ideal nation is one where people have debates over everything. When you debate things and you have discussions with people, that's how things change. That's how they improve. If we are all just in our little bubbles only talking to each other, things don't get better. One of the things, though, about the Michigan bill is that it would stop people DTE, regulated monopolies, utilities, state utilities from participating in elections. No more campaign giving by them and also their top employees. What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 5:I don't see any value in adding specific cutouts to this group or that group. I think it's important for us to have very clear and simple rules. So if the goal is to get rid of corporate donations, then get rid of corporate donations. If the goal is to make it clear, make it clear, but every time we make a small carve out to this industry or that industry, it just Well it's not just an industry, though Keep in mind that we're not saying we're going to do the automotive industry.
Speaker 4:There's a Supreme Court ruling that will give credence to these corporations as individuals. That's in their defense, but we're talking about something very specific. Sure, but I guess it could just get litigated away.
Speaker 3:Well, it could, but let me finish what I'm saying. Okay, and then we can argue it. Dte is a publicly traded corporation that also has monopoly rights over energy in a section of the state. It's regulated by the Michigan Public Service Commission. It is the most expensive and we have the highest rates in the nation and some of the least reliability in the nation, and we also are very slow to adopt green practices, and part of that is because regulators are very lax on DTE. So in 2023, dte distributes $700 plus million to shareholders and a few months later, comes back and demands a rate increase of about $400 million in order to meet its responsibilities.
Speaker 3:Well, let's do the math. Why didn't you distribute $300 million to your shareholders so that you would have that $400 million? And we can't. You know, dte sends out these surveys and they ask a lot of questions about service, and one of the questions is would you recommend DTE to other people? And that always makes me laugh, because what choice do I have? This is a monopoly. Either we stop giving energy producers a monopoly over production services and we create competition, or we stop letting them pay off the people who are going to hold them accountable, so that there is no accountability for our really um for for our um utilities in this state and that's not true in other states?
Speaker 3:there are 13 other states that have adopted very similar legislation because of the potential for abuse. So it's not a carve out. They got a carve out when they were allowed monopoly rights. If you don't want them to have a carve out, when I was a kid, michigan Bell had monopoly rights. It was the only telephone company and now you can purchase from everybody. When you have monopoly, is there a duty or responsibility that monopoly to operate within the law?
Speaker 5:To operate within the law.
Speaker 3:To operate differently than when you don't have monopoly.
Speaker 5:I think so, and I think we have laws that do that. I think we're constantly refining the laws.
Speaker 3:What are the laws that restrict? What are the laws?
Speaker 5:The laws that restrict monopoly.
Speaker 3:The laws that restrict DTE from paying out $700 million in October and demanding a rate increase the next March. What are the laws that stop?
Speaker 5:The laws that create the Public Service Commission, but again the.
Speaker 3:Public Service Commission has been completely compromised, and so we can say well, you know, let's just change.
Speaker 5:It sounds like you want to fix the Public Service Commission, which.
Speaker 3:No, I want to fix the state legislature so the state legislature is not paid for by DTE, so that the state legislature does not depend on DTE contributions in order to make it into office and DTE does not have an outsized influence over its regulators, which is what's happening right now, because if you can have political influence over your regulators, you are not being regulated.
Speaker 5:All I'm saying is I think we should have systems that make sense, that are fair and equitable across the board.
Speaker 3:So is that system? Is that equitable?
Speaker 5:Let me finish Right. So that means the same rules that apply to DTE apply to Blue Cross, applied to Henry Ford, applied to all the other entities.
Speaker 3:Is Blue Cross or Henry Ford? Are they state monopolies?
Speaker 5:Henry Ford? No, but Henry Ford is now the largest employer in the state.
Speaker 3:I'm not talking about the size of the employer. Blue.
Speaker 5:Cross was basically a monopoly for many years, but it's not a monopoly.
Speaker 3:Now I'm saying do you believe that monopolies that are allowed by the state should have the same rules as non-monopolies?
Speaker 5:I'm saying that I believe strongly that we should have the same kind of laws across the board and if you want laws which I do that decrease the impact that any of these entities have, particularly from an ability to give and the time that it spends doing that they're not support dollars, I'm not.
Speaker 3:You don't have the across the board policies, because Blue Cross is not a monopoly, henry Ford is not a monopoly. They are organizations that have to face competition and ideally they have to face price competition, which is, and quality competition, which is what is the American way, right. You're supposed to be able to have that competition. If you have no competition, what is the pressure to improve? And so the pressure to improve is the regulator. If the regulator is not free of political influence, then there is absolutely nothing. You can't compare DTE or consumers' energy to a non-regulated monopoly. But we're going to move on because there are other questions.
Speaker 4:Can I ask? Tyrone Carter once said at a it was at the Hispanic Development Corporation, at a candidate forum with Gabby a couple months ago he said it's insulting to insinuate that politicians who take corporate money owe those corporations something in return. People did laugh at him. He said who you accept money from means you're bought and paid for. That's an insult to almost anyone running. The biggest contributor to any campaign that I've ever had was me. How do you represent the poorest district? You're not rich. He's asking gabby, how do you represent southwest? How, how do you represent without taking their money? And gabby says well, there are rich people in southwest. It's Corktown, you know, it's Woodbridge, and Midtown are a part of our district too, aren't there rich people? Um, I ask you, know, why is there no pressure on the, on the progressives that take money from Doug or Ned Stabler, which both of those people I very much like, but they also have agendas as well where me but I guess I want to ask Adam the question.
Speaker 3:Is Ned Stabler giving away?
Speaker 4:He's giving away money, how much A lot he's giving.
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know, actually, isn't he a private individual? Ned? Yeah, I thought he was an individual. He's a.
Speaker 4:Democratic donor.
Speaker 3:I mean, but he's a private individual, not a corporation, right?
Speaker 4:No, he of those individuals are corporations. Those are just individual rich people. Who do you accept money from? You've accepted money from George Roberts, my old landlord who kicked me out. Oh yeah, oh my God, I got to do still a years-long story on that. This guy, rene Hagen suing him.
Speaker 5:I will say this I do not, when I am making decisions from a policy standpoint, have a list or in any way shape or form. Am I thinking has this person given me money or not? Before I make that decision. I don't do that. Most especially, corporations give money to the people that they think are going to win, whether they are super aligned or unaligned.
Speaker 4:Do you think it makes sense to assume that when you're giving a candidate, $500 versus $83, $25, that there's a different relationship.
Speaker 3:Let's be real honest when the insurance reform, when you're telling me that you were supported by people who supported insurance reform right and people who didn't. You were on a billboard paid for by the people who supported insurance reform which I had no involvement in. Yeah, I'm not saying you did, but what I'm saying to you is, if you're telling me that the people who are sponsoring insurance reform were not in your ear, pushing legislation and trying to influence your vote, I'm going to call that a lie.
Speaker 5:I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is I cared about insurance reform and so people supported me because they knew that I cared about insurance reform the same way.
Speaker 5:people do that on any host of things. But there are lots of things and lots of people who supported me, who did not agree with me on a number of votes that I've taken, who have given before and after and between A good friend of mine went to Congress years ago, keith Ellison, when he went to Congress and we talked afterwards and he talked to me about the impact of money on politics.
Speaker 3:He talked about all of the receptions that were given and the money that was raised and you put on these committees.
Speaker 3:I think it's safe to say that the way money functions in politics is it does influence political behavior on a number of levels, whether it is helping to support ads, helping to build visibility, but also most corporate donors have a set of priorities that they use and they lobby politicians to adopt their policies. And if somebody is donated to you, you're not going to close the door and not listen to them, and if you are hearing from their lobbyist, you're going to hear some things and we see that maybe all of these entities doesn't do. Maybe people aren't thinking to themselves hey, you know what? I'm going to vote for this because I got money from this, but I'm going to vote for this because these are my friends, these are the people I've been surrounded by. I've heard from these people. We know that's how money operates in politics and so, whether or not, individual legislators always vote along the lines of what people want. Maybe not, but we can't ignore the influence of money in politics, can we?
Speaker 5:I don't know that anybody is trying to.
Speaker 3:Well, right, so you were saying that when you were elected-.
Speaker 5:I think Sam asked me a specific question about me, so I answered specifically as it related to me.
Speaker 3:Right, ok, all right, but I think he was talking about Tyrone and he was saying that Tyrone said that I can't speak about Tyrone.
Speaker 5:He asked me how I respond to those kind of things, and I think if you look at folks who have given to me. There are folks who have given to me who agree with me on some things and disagree on others.
Speaker 3:Some people vehemently agree and disagree on a lot of things, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 5:I think, as we talk about these things. That is why I think it's so critically important that our campaign finance laws are clear and simple, because the more ambiguity, the more special carve-outs they have, the more technical they get in nature, the easier it is for people to abuse them and the more often we see mismatches. Right Like the federal government and the Supreme Court that we have, have made a bunch of rulings about what is or is not, and no one feels good about the system.
Speaker 3:Here's a carve-out. I'm president and CEO of Eastside Community Network. I work for a nonprofit community development corporation. Carvot. I'm president and CEO of Eastside Community Network. I work for a non-profit community development corporation. I cannot Vanguard. I mean ECN cannot contribute money to campaigns. Ecn cannot endorse candidates.
Speaker 5:I don't know if that's the case anymore.
Speaker 3:It is absolutely the case. The 501c3 organizations are prohibited from participating.
Speaker 5:The new IRS rules would be those for churches.
Speaker 3:Those for churches. This is not a church. The 501c3 laws have specifically banned participation since 1957 or thereabouts, and so, yes, we already have carve-outs. The only suggestion is that a regulated monopoly should also be a carve-out. It's not a suggestion that it's an industry If DTE is here, and it's not a regulated monopoly. We are trying to make sure that regulated monopolies have their own rules, regardless of who they are. It's not a carve-out of an entity, it's a carve-out of a type of entity, and the same thing happens to me every single day Foundations, 501c3 foundations, cannot do the same thing. We're prohibited the only people, we're the only corporations that don't have free speech.
Speaker 5:And I'm not saying that that's wrong. I'm just saying that what we need is more simple rules, and I think that's what you should be expecting from me to advocate for as a secretary of state that they are simple, that they are clear and that they are executed fairly, Something that I don't think is happening right now.
Speaker 3:Well, it's going to be interesting to see what's happening with the Michigan Democratic Party. I think right now we don't know. We're about to close out. We don't know. We know that Mamdami is well ahead in New York City on a very progressive agenda that's being resisted by a lot of traditional Democrats. It's going to be interesting to see whether the Democratic Party changes and maintains these sort of centrist, neutral values or whether it becomes a more activist party in response to what we see as a very activist Republican Party.
Speaker 4:It is Breaking news right here Charlie Kirk, political commentator and activist, key Trump ally and propagandist, has been shot at an event in Utah Political violence is not.
Speaker 5:It's not acceptable, it's not okay and we should not feel good about it, no matter who it happens to, and we should be doing everything we can to make sure that people know that it's unacceptable across the board well, I mean, who's not doing that?
Speaker 3:I think that there's. Whoever has shot him is going to pay a big price. I think that trump is not even allowing political speech to have much less political violence. The only violence that is allowed or permitted is on the right. So, um, you know, you have a whole dc police force.
Speaker 4:That has been, you know, totally charlie kirk has been the subject of you know he. You have a whole DC police force. That has been, you know totally. Charlie Kirk has been the subject of you know he is not a well-liked person on that same online right. Obviously there is a feud currently between the Fuentes and the Charlie Kirk sort of right and I'm not.
Speaker 4:Kirk represents the establishment Trump of the party, whereas the other younger, groper, more racist sect of it is going in a different direction, whereas the other younger, groper, more racist sect of it is going in a different direction.
Speaker 3:I believe there's only one president in recent history who has advocated for political violence and he is the current president of the United States. I believe everybody else has said we don't believe in violence, has fought against violence. Every other political party and most political leaders have fought against violence. Violence begets violence and I think that's what you see happening here. I hope they get it under control because it's scary, I think, to all of us, and I'm not in any way supporting the shooting of anybody because I'm a pacifist. I don't own a gun and I shouldn't tell people that because now I can't defend myself, just in case they can't.
Speaker 3:But anyway, I want to thank you for joining us, Adam. I know that you have a busy day. Thank you for taking the time out and always being willing to engage in a vigorous debate. I'm going to wish you well in your run for Secretary of State. I know that it's going to happen behind Democratic convention doors and again there is a real battle for the heart and soul of the Democratic Party right now all over the nation and it's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Speaker 5:I hope everybody will come out, Thanks.
Speaker 4:Adam so much no-transcript.
