Authentically Detroit
Authentically Detroit is the leading podcast in the city for candid conversations, exchanging progressive ideas, and centering resident perspectives on current events.
Hosted by Donna Givens Davidson and Orlando P. Bailey.
Produced by Sarah Johnson and Engineered by Griffin Hutchings.
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Authentically Detroit
Black Detroit Democracy Podcast: Inside The Detroit Mayoral Showdown And The Battle For Progressive Power
The Authentically Detroit Podcast Network in collaboration with Detroit One Million presents: The Black Detroit Democracy Podcast, hosted by Donna Givens Davidson and Sam Robinson!
Together, Donna and Sam illuminate the complexities of Detroit’s unique political landscape and give residents a resource for navigating civic engagement and election season.
In this episode, they dig into the contrast between rhetoric and results, what power should look like and who it should serve. The conversation gives a preview into this week’s mayoral debate between Council President Mary Sheffield and Rev. Solomon Kinloch Jr. Immigration reform, environmental justice, and fair housing all take center stage in this deep dive on how to build a credible record through community impact and structural results.
For more episodes of the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast, click here.
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SPEAKER_02:Detroit 1 Million is a journalism project started by Sam Robinson that centers a generation of Michiganders growing up in a state without a city with 1 million people. Support the only independent reporter covering the 2025 Detroit mayoral race through the lens of young people. Good journalism costs. Visit Detroit One Million.com to support black independent reporting.
SPEAKER_05:The City Charter is our constitution, which defines our rights and the way government should work. I'm Donna Givens-Davidson, President and CEO of the East Side Community Network.
SPEAKER_04:And I'm Sam Robinson, founder of Detroit One Million.
SPEAKER_05:Thank you for listening in and supporting this expanded effort to build another platform of authentic voices for real people in the city of Detroit. We want you to like, rate, and subscribe to our podcast on all platforms. The purpose of this podcast is to encourage Detroit citizens to stay vigilant in the fight for justice and equality with a special call to action for Black Detroit. We seek to build awareness of our history as a gateway to freedom, a beacon for justice, and a laboratory of liberation. Welcome back to the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. It's time for Word on the Street where we break down everyone what everyone's been saying behind the scenes. Sam, what have you heard?
SPEAKER_04:Well, we have today, as we are recording this, uh the first debate between mayoral candidates, Solomon Kinlock and Mary Sheffield. We saw, what is it, four of them on the stage? I think that was James Craig Santiel, Mary, and Solomon back in July. Well, we hosted one at ECN. Right. But the televised debate, so we probably should have more than just this one between the two candidates. It is in Southfield, so it's not even happening in the city of Detroit. The WIDIV debate, uh the local four, they held theirs at Wayne State at the uh Gretchen Villet Jazz Center. That was a good venue. I'd never been in there before. Um, I am anxious, patiently anticipating what this layout is gonna look like because, to my understanding, uh both campaigns sort of agreed not to have a live audience.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Which I think is interesting. Um, I think that's how most gubernatorial debates happen. I think about the one between Gretchen and Tudor Dixon a few years ago. I do believe that was um no uh audience. And I don't know, maybe it helps the candidates focus.
SPEAKER_05:I think it's fine to help the candidates focus. Um, you know, I think the debate will be interesting. I'm actually going to be busy during the debate, so I'm going to have to record it so I can watch it when I get home.
SPEAKER_04:What are you looking for?
SPEAKER_05:Um, nothing. To be honest with you, um, I've been so disgusted by this campaign season. I'm ready looking for it to be over. Um I had such an open mind in January um regarding candidates. You did. Yeah, you did. And um actually had really high hopes that um Solomon Kinlock would bring something different to the race, that he would bring an outsider's voice. And he does. Um, I just don't like the way he's been using it, to be honest with you. I follow you on Twitter, as you know, and sometimes we communicate that way. And one of the Twitter stories you had up recently was um him talking to um 50 men, um, and we were supposed to imagine it was about a thousand, but you know, about 50 black men for Kenlock. And he was really criticizing Mary Sheffield for liking concerts and liking going to the club and to a bunch of men. And it's like these dudes are like, ooh, she should stay at home, which is cook, watch babies. What are we upset about her liking concerts for? I like concerts, and sometimes I even like going to parties. I was at a party on Saturday and had a good time, right? Um, is that a realistic criticism of somebody who will be mayor that they have recreational things that they enjoy? Um, it felt sexist to me.
SPEAKER_04:Well, we've heard a lot about the campaign on Solomon Kinloch and not wanting to go after Mary personally because of the perception that it could be created that you know he a man going after this young woman. Um and yeah, you know, I think a lot of the comments on that tweet, um, just you know, scrolling it up, one said, LMAO, this man is so out of touch. Um somebody said their hashtag noticing the crowd. LOL, I ain't heard one of his plans for the city. I haven't heard him say he'll step down from being a pastor if elected. I don't understand how he has a large following. John. Shout out to John. He said Sug Knight at the Source Awards in 1995. Um, and you know, it's it's just so interesting. This uh style is not being received well by um undecided folks. I don't think it's being received well by people who have made up their mind. And even some folks that I hear from who support him say, you know, I was surprised, they were surprised to hear this is from uh last weekend. I think my tweet was from October 11th, and he what he said was um you know, referring to Detroit City Council President Mary Sheffield, who's the polling front runner to become Detroit's next mayor. Uh, he didn't name her by name, but he said, You ain't in this seat for yourself. I know you like concerts, I know you like the clubs, I know you like the attention in the media. He went on to say his campaign isn't for attention for himself, he wants to bring attention to the issues uh that plague uh people at the bottom, the most vulnerable residents of Detroit. And when you listen to um his rhetoric, a lot of it is centered on um, you know, this direct action that he's been doing through his church. He hasn't needed the city's intervention. He talks about how he hasn't needed any city money, he doesn't need to um what did what was the line that he said at the debate? Kiss the ring of these other organizations that need city help.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Um, I mean, it's disgusting to me. First of all, um, there are churches that build shopping centers, schools, housing, homeless shelters, orphanages. Churches do all kinds of things when they are interested in meeting the needs of the public. And, you know, as somebody pointed out to me, redistributing forgotten harvest meals is not necessarily church philanthropy. And I'm not saying that he has not purchased gifts for kids and computers and other things that are really nice and that he's gotten a lot of positive feedback for. I'm not saying the church has not also helped pay people's electricity bills and helped people out in emergencies. But what I'm saying is that the structural fixes that he says Mary Sheffield has not been involved in, um, I don't see them coming out of there. Um, one of the things I'm most proud of that I um did when I was running a church-based nonprofit was building housing two blocks from his church, which is affordable housing, which remains affordable for people in need of housing. And that was a faith-based nonprofit. Another thing that we did was we started the Milwaukee Junction Small Business Center, helping small business owners in the church and in the community find pathways to doing really well. And there's some small business owners who are millionaires right now, who, when they see me, thank me for giving them the opportunity to build their business case and to grow and develop. There's ways that you can leverage your role when you have a congregation and also when you're seated inside of a community to improve the community and improve the economic well-being of your congregation. So rather than him taking his time, taking pot shots at Mary Sheffield, it would be useful for him to describe his record at changing the economic conditions of the neighborhoods where his churches are located, and also of helping to elevate the well-being of the people inside of his church, not through gifts and giveaways, but through structural interventions.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think I'm looking to hear some of that perhaps at the debate tonight. Um, you know, we understand that um, you know, Mary's going to come with policy. Violet Iconamova just penned a, I think, over 1,500-word profile on Mary on her accomplishments and things that she couldn't get past the finish line because of the sort of conservative forces working against her um within the mayor's office administration. I read it and I learned a few things. Um you know, kudos to Violet. I had ran into her and actually gave her a ride back to her car the day that she had followed Mary around all day talking about how impressed she was that uh the council president gets up very early in the morning to go. Um, I won't say where, but she goes and works out people that I know know where she goes. And um it's very early in the morning, and then just a blitz. She won't eat until the afternoon. I mean, it's very impressive. And Violet was just wondering you know, how the hell are you awake and this focused and able to stay on message? Because imagine, you know, every day, pretty much of the weekday, getting up from 7 in the morning to really like 9, 10, 11 p.m. about what you're doing every day, about the you know, your her position on council, constantly talking about it, like having to have that language ready to go from the morning to way beyond 5 p.m. I mean, it's go, I mean, she's door knocking and repeating the spiel over and over and over again. It's like it's a very quite impressive um Violet. You know, they have the same flavor vape is what she was talking about. And so Violet, um, I think really well was able to sort of uh give us a version of Mary that we hadn't seen. And a lot of the forces working against her putting it in that context of a story like that. You know, I hadn't read anything like that.
SPEAKER_05:So yeah, I thought she did a nice job. And she's been critical of Mary in the past. Oh, yeah, she has been. And so I think we're not talking about somebody who's been in Mary's pocket, but as somebody who has been working with City Council to try to move certain things forward, Mary has always been the voice in the room who at least consider um a balance a more balanced, you know, leadership. And keep in mind, you know, Mike Ducan did not endorse Mary until the last minute. Right. Um, he didn't endorse her during the primary, and he did not give a full-throated um support for her until I think it became clear that she was going to be the last real politician standing. And I want to say something.
SPEAKER_04:He did tell us that she that he knew he was going to endorse her from the day that she launched her campaign.
SPEAKER_05:That's what I would say too. I would say that too. If I know I'm going to endorse somebody and I'm mayor and I think that I can actually put my finger on the scale and move the scale, and I don't, then it tells me that my I'm holding out my hopes and I'm not sure where I'm going to go. But perhaps he knew it was going to be Mary. I think probably what I heard him saying, or my interpretation of what I heard him saying, is he knew she was going to be the front runner from the moment that she announced, um, even if he, you know, withheld his endorsement. But regardless, um, I think it's important to look at Mary's record, not look at the mayor's record, to acknowledge the difference between legislative and um strong mayor roles. And I thought Violet did a really good job of that, and it really made me um satisfied to read that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. What did you think this week? Um, you know, progressive Democrats, folks that perhaps might be, you know, looking at Mary and wondering where she is on issues like immigration. Um, you know, they were sort of assured by her standing next to Gabriela Santiago Romero, who is the incumbent city council member in District 6. That's Southwest Detroit. They did a cross-endorsement event over at the Joe Lewis Greenway Partnership. Malachi and I were the only reporters there, of course. Um, and you know, I I don't know if we can put too much in the fact that you know she's endorsing Gabby against Tyrone. Um, you know, we did learn that you know, her father's five plus one political action committee, you know, the five plus one is uh in the name what it intends to be to create a coalition that supports you know Mary and her administration if she is to be elected the next mayor. We asked her um, you know, did she plan to back Denzel McCampbell? And she smiled and said, stay tuned.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I absolutely believe that Mary Sheffield is the most progressive person who was on the you know ballot for mayor, period. She had the most progressive pedigree. Since, you know, she's a I haven't seen any polling data, so I don't know. I have to believe the polling date is still in her favor because you see Ken Like becoming seemingly more and more desperate with his attacks. By the way, that's what people do when they're drowning, right? If I think I'm in strong footing, then I can carry out my plan according to my plan. But if I think I'm drowning, sometimes I, you know, strike, lash out in ways that don't necessarily become me, right? Nobody's at their their most graceful when they feel like they are drowning. And I think the campaign feels like it's drowning. And I see bitterness coming out of people who support Kenlock, which reinforces to me a belief that they know they're not going to win this election. And so right now they're just, you know, striking out. Maybe they think maybe we can help home run if people get mad enough about the G-Z tickets. But um, Mary Sheffield doesn't have to do some of what she's doing. She doesn't have to stand for immigration reform right now. I think she could win without that. I don't think she has to endorse Invest in My Kids, which she has done because I think she could win without that. I think what we're seeing is Mary saying, This is where I stand. And I tend to believe her based on some of the work that she's done while she's in office. And that is not to say that if Mary becomes mayor, she is going to be a mayor for the people in the way that people want to see, because the mayor of Detroit is a role that you know has to embrace corporate priorities. It has to embrace some priorities that may be at odds with what residents want to see. So, you know, I keep in mind that this is a person who will be acting on behalf of a racist capitalistic state, which is or city, or arm of the state. And therefore, you know, I think we have to keep our expectations balanced that ultimately she's going to have to comply with federal immigration policy. She's going to have to comply with housing policy and economic development theories that, you know, transcend Detroit. You know, business stimulus is part of how we, you know, generate support. And she's going to have to also meet the expectations of bond rating agencies that will come down on her if she goes too far afield. And if they do, then Detroit could have a downgraded bond rating, which would increase the cost of borrowing and impact Detroit's budget directly. And then we have to keep in mind that the city is still subject to financial oversight coming back into the city if she goes too far afield. And I'm saying that because I think it's important that we understand that our role as progressives does not end on election day, regardless of who's in office. We're going to have to still fight for what we believe in because there will be counterforces trying to push a different agenda, even than the one that she has been publicly um recognized for. What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_04:Well, I just think that it's uh noteworthy when she says you know she wants Gabby to write the immigration policy. I think it's noteworthy, you know, when we're talking about uh Karen Witsett and Tyrone Carter being these sitting state legislators that uh you know I I asked uh Mary the other day on Monday afternoon, already knowing the answer. Uh, you know, had you ever any conversations with Tyrone prior to making your decision to publicly endorse Gabby. I'd understand you know, watching council for the last three or four years, you get to see that Gabby and Mary are are not only like legislative allies, but they're friendly with each other on council. Um and and you know, Mary laughed when I asked her that and said, no, you know, I I back Gabby 100%. I'm fully behind her. Um, you know, I understand that, you know, if if Tyrone were to lose, he'd go back to the legislator. Hopefully he would, you know, work with us to continue uh fighting for for our shared constituents.
SPEAKER_05:Um you know, I interviewed both Gabby and Tyrone. Yeah, they're the only two city, that's the only district that we were able to get to sit down with us, right? Yeah, with both of them. And I actually liked Gabby and Tyrone.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Um, I think he's a decent human being.
SPEAKER_03:He is, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And so I want to acknowledge that I was pleasantly surprised and I agree with a lot of what he said. However, I think he also is a person who is um you know perpetuating a lot of outdated mindsets around who should represent us. Um Gabby is a Mexican woman, right? She's a Mexican immigrant who came to this nation. Um she does represent a community that includes a you know large proportion of Mexican people, the largest in the state.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And she has every right to claim and celebrate who she is, even in a majority black city. I want to flip that because I just came back from Miami.
SPEAKER_04:Um I just came back from Southwest Detroit last night. So I was walking around Springwell Street and Verner and just kind of walking around and seeing everybody that had the gates, like it's Chicago in front of their house, and they'll have the double concrete like front porch where they have the taco truck businesses like all in. It's just like such a different sort of family style of living in Southwest than it is in most Detroit neighborhoods. And we should honor that interesting.
SPEAKER_05:And we should honor that, right? Yeah, diversity is the spice of life. But when I was in Miami, you know, black people are a minority in Miami. And I'm trying to imagine a black candidate having to apologize for representing black people in Miami because it's a majority Hispanic, Cuban city. It's ridiculous. Because if I was a politician in Miami, I would definitely be representing my people and understand that I can represent my people and other people as well, but never leaving my people behind. To use somebody's ethnic identity as a weapon and to treat their ethnic identity as you're an outsider, you can't represent us, is offensive to me. And I think we need to get beyond that because this idea that we are always in the victim situation and we can never harm other people is simply wrong. The other thing that Gabby got criticized for, which I thought was crazy, is when she was talking about immigrants and she said we are black and we are brown and we are, you know, other ethnicities, and somebody said she's calling black people immigrants. But what she was doing was embracing the diversity of immigrants in our community, meaning that we do have African and Haitian and Jamaican immigrants right in our midst, and they are black. And so I think the you know microscope that we look at her through, where we're just trying to find out is she racist, does she represent us properly, distracts us from the reality of her leadership. And I think she's been a strong leader, I think she's been a strong collaborator. Um, I think that she's worked well with Letitia Johnson, who represents District 4. I think she's worked well with Mary, who is my current city council representative. If Denzel McCampbell is voted in, then she will be work very well with him as well. Um and so I think that um I'm just trying to imagine in a year from now, six months from now, we could have a progressive leadership in the city of Detroit. And we've never had progressive leadership in the city in the way that some other big cities have.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:In the mayor's office, several city council members, it would change the whole dynamic there, right?
SPEAKER_04:I think it would. Um people have this preconceived notion or narrative true or not, that Detroit is a conservative place.
SPEAKER_05:Well, Detroit has been a conservative place.
SPEAKER_04:We know that they vote Democrat more than in a majority. Uh, you know, it's one of the strongest democratic strongholds in the country. But it is also um what what is it?
SPEAKER_05:Well, you know, for example, um environmental justice has never been central to Detroit's values.
SPEAKER_04:Despite it being so ripe to become that. It should be. Because we are the most polluted city.
SPEAKER_05:But but environmental justice has never been at the forefront of our advocacy. Right. Um, although we are very, you know, we we've been embracing, I suppose, gay individuals. It's the you have it's a pretty closeted city when you talk about LGBTQ communities. And I say that through the lens of my son, who now lives in LA, and um, in, you know, perspectives he shared, although, you know, there's that whole thing, but gay marriage is not something that's ever going to be on the agenda because churches play a big role in shaping our um our our value system. Um, we are not necessarily right to choose, it's not necessarily widely embraced as a Detroit priority. We're sort of like don't ask, don't tell about abortion, don't ask, don't tell about being gay, um, in ways that you don't see in other large cities. So I think because of the influence, the conservatism of church, I think that it's helped shape our political ideologies. Younger people, period, are less religious than older people. And I think that younger people in our nation, although we have some turning back the clock, and that's scary, but younger people in our nation tend to be more embracing of LGBTQ, more concerned about the environment. And I think that we as a city have got to be be reflective of that. Um, when you talk to a lot of politicians, I mean, you've got Keith Williams as the chair of Black the Black Democratic Caucus.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, his critics will say that he's conservative.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, I mean, what would his advocate say? I think he would proudly embrace he believes in conservative values. I don't think he shies away from that. He's about because another conservative value is we're focused on the middle class and we're focused on businesses, and poor people need to pull themselves. He's a businessman.
SPEAKER_04:He's not a he's not a sociologist, he's not a lawyer, he's a businessman. That's what he would say.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly. And so I think that for those of us who believe in economic justice, we would call that conservative. Right. Okay. So um, you know, and then I think if you look at what, you know, some of the other candidates were running on, they're running on this idea that still we've got to promote growth machines in our midst. So, anyway, what are you looking forward to in the debate tonight?
SPEAKER_04:You know, I'm looking forward to each candidate um, you know, getting to produce their uh 15-second vertical videos that I'm sure tonight will create. Right? We're gonna get a bunch of like sound bites and clips out of this that are probably gonna be used for the next three weeks. I think there's 20 or some days left until November 4th. And so I'm excited for all the content that this is gonna create. Um, you know, talking about lawyers and sociologists and businessmen, um Lieutenant Governor Garland Gilchrist this week. Yeah, he he ruffled the feathers of one lawyer, the state's top attorney, the attorney general Dan and Nessel. Uh you know, what underscores this obviously is the conversation that happened two weeks previous. Garland comes out as a, you know, sort of openly pro-Palestine, uh, I guess you could say anti-Israel to the degree in which you know he's calling the war in Gaza a genocide and Netanyahu was a war criminal.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. He's he's saying he's not gonna take corporate PAC money.
SPEAKER_04:And all of a sudden, well, I didn't I don't know about that yet. He did.
SPEAKER_05:He said he's said I will not take corporate packet money.
SPEAKER_04:He did, and including APAC in that, yes. And so that's become sort of the litmus test, the corporate pack money. I talked to Barbinum Barbiram today, excuse me. Um she did not answer that question for me. She says that she's still considering, she's answering a questionnaire now currently, and is still considering whether or not she's going to take corporate pack money. I'm still looking through her candidate filing, her campaign finance reports to see if she already has or not. Adam Ollier, you know, sat right here, and you can listen to the to the episode. He's defended um accepting corporate pack money. Um and so Agogo, right now in this Secretary of State's race, is the only candidate that has um you know pledged to not take it. But Garland ruffled the feathers of Dana Nessel uh this week by saying that the Democratic Party needs more than lawyers. Dana Nessel, being a lawyer, said that's insulting to the Democratic attorney generals and not what our party needs right now. There is a side in which uh, you know, most of these people are elected. Uh you know, they we say the Democratic Party should stop infighting itself and should stop, should direct its attention solely on the Republican Party while also capitulating to Republicans on a number of issues. Nevertheless. And you have some Democrats that say we need a new direction, we need to be firm with our beliefs. We don't have to triangulate every response to every question. Um you hear a lot of triangulation.
SPEAKER_05:Well, you do hear a lot of triangulation.
SPEAKER_04:And we heard it from Barb and we heard it from Adam, at least from Barb on the corporate pack issue. She's not very triangulated on much else. She's a pretty straight shooter.
SPEAKER_05:Um but you know, I think the issue is that we're seeing the shrinking profile of the old guard. I think the old guard was not able to stave off this, you know, um this budget impasse where um shut down, whatever you want to call it, um, they weren't able to stave off the worst elements of Trumpism. They weren't able to even agree not to vote people like Christine Neem or whatever her name is. I don't know. No, whatever. I don't watch the news, so I don't know how to pronounce these names. I read it, but they weren't even able to work collectively to not vote these people in. They are still having conversations about, you know, let's try to work with Trump, let's not do things that they may turn against us as if every weapon has not already been, you know, unleashed against people who are at the most vulnerable in our society. We actually have the city of Chicago occupied right now by federal forces, even as people are saying, let's try to, let's, let's all try to get along. Um, we weren't able to come together and defeat Netanyahu's agenda against our genocide. Um, and so you see younger, more progressive politicians stepping into that void and getting recognition. And the funny thing is that when they're stepping into that void and getting recognition. The very same people who refuse to really stand up against Trump and MAGA are attacking those people. Why is Dana Nessel coming after Garland Gilchrist for saying something like we need more than attorneys? I mean, I posted in your comments when you posted that that a hit dog really hollered here, right? Because she understands that she's not the answer. But this is a person who also weaponized the government against free speech and students at U of M. People who live in Ann Arbor who were threatened because they were opposing a genocide that she then enabled through her activities, in my opinion. So I think that this is what happens when people start losing power is they start striking out in these ugly ways. And I don't think that you can ever get to justice without debate, without challenging each other by saying let's all get along and silence dissent. That doesn't get you justice.
SPEAKER_04:We've come a long way from 2018, in which, you know, the the sort of Michigan squad, I guess you could say the Dana, Nessel, Jocelyn Benson, and Whitmer trio, you know, those each of those folks are so far away from from each other on so many different issues. We saw it between Jocelyn and and Whitmer over transparency issues. I don't know if you remember the financial disclosure that Whitmer sort of defended, um, getting rid of the spousal disclosure part of that. And of course, Jocelyn was like, well, if you're not going to do the spousal disclosure, then why do it anyway? Um you know, we've we've seen Dana Nessel obviously take a completely different posture against Trump than Governor Whitmer has. And I mean, I don't know directly reference, but has said time and time again, you know, Democrats need to be urgent in their um um opposition to Trump, not you know, appear on stage or or next to him at a at press conferences in the White House. Um, and of course, now I just wonder what Governor Whitmer is thinking with her LG just openly coming out in support of uh, you know, the dignity of these Palestinians that have been, you know, decimated.
SPEAKER_05:If uh, you know, I have a question with all of her. If we watched the presidential campaigns last year and learned nothing about Kamala Harris sticking to the script laid out by Joe Biden, if we learned nothing else, we should have learned that it doesn't make sense to run for an office if you're unwilling to have meaningful conversations about your values. Now that doesn't mean that he should just start attacking Whitmer at Haminham, but I do think that there is, if these are his values and he wants to be elected into office, he can't hide behind the office of governor and expect to win. He's gotten more press by simply saying these things and he has ever than ever has.
SPEAKER_04:And I just I wonder if he would have been doing this and sort of creating this earlier on, if there would have been some uh you know, fissure within the governor's office, or what the agreements were like between both of them to be like you need to chill out until this moment, or what?
SPEAKER_05:I I don't know. I think that he has been um I saw him at the Democratic convention earlier this year. And he was um, you know, when Sean Fain was saying some things, he was clapping and it was like Curtis was standing right next to him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, clapping along too.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so I think that the Curtis Rattel is the chair of the Michigan Democratic Party. Yeah, I mean, I think that Garland, and we interviewed Garland on Authentically Detroit. Garland is a sincere person, you know. Yeah, you don't have to love him. Uh, you know, he's very lovable to me, but he's a very sincere person. I don't think he's saying these things because for sound bites. I think he believes them.
SPEAKER_04:And um, I think people what critics will say is oh, he's just saying this now so he can get a few votes in the earbuds.
SPEAKER_05:That's exactly what people say. But I think he's a sincere human being, honestly. Um, he doesn't strike me as being somebody who says one thing and means another. Um, if anything, I think the criticism has been that he's not been too open with his beliefs. But if you've known him over this period of time, remember his first run for office was Michigan Secretary of State. Or no, it's Detroit Detroit City Clerk. I'm sorry, Detroit City Clerk. And he was out there speaking some pretty progressive ideals even then. And then he became lieutenant governor, and to some extent, his uh voice was muted. I'm not saying silenced, and now you're hearing from him again. But I was at some of those events where he was, you know, speaking passionately about issues. Um, so I'm happy he's there. Um you know, you also look at Abdul El Sayyid, and suddenly his star seems to be rising as well in the Michigan Senate race. What have you been hearing about that?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, well, you know, I just uh saw him over at the Kronos Concrete site, Stephanie Chang and Jedante Smith and the Detroit Ham Tramic Coalition for Healthy Environments, I believe is the title of that organization. Um they're really working hard to get drum up some attention. Scott Benson actually uh yesterday, you know, had said, you know, we have to respect the property rights, but it is also, in my opinion, that you know, this should not be here. Um he has, you know, his office has defended uh that concrete facility in a way that has turned off a lot of the advocates.
SPEAKER_05:Well he's on he he's the chair of the Green Task Force for the City of Detroit. And you want the Green Task Force to believe in green stuff, right? Environmental justice should be the priority of the Green Task Force. Other than that, it looks compromised, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_04:Well, that's what that's what the activists tell me. Um he pushes back on that criticism, though. He says he does not want concrete crushing uh facilities or concrete facilities in the neighborhood. Kronos, of course, you know, uh protecting our authentically Detroit podcast network. Kronos claims to not do concrete crushing at this Cadillac Heights site in District 3. Uh, but there is obviously concrete mixing all about. You can see that there's a concrete facility. Um, and it's just like a blighted site, like all around it is just trash and debris, and it's just like terrible, dust bowl-y kind of environment that the uh ground that used to be open green space next door, next right the lots nearby, you know, it's not great for the residents who I talked to last week. Talked to Abdul Al-Syed. Um, him and Mallory actually tonight are going to participate in an M Gage um debate. Uh M Gage is a Muslim advocacy organization. Haley Stevens is not participating in this debate. But um, a lot of Detroit black democratic establishment folks, uh like Dennis, no, excuse me, Dave Bing, um, just today. I received an inbox. Dave Bing is is backing Haley Stevens for Congress. Joe Tate sent a larger sort of explainer on why he's backing Haley at fix-ins. He talked about you know the need to be a team player.
SPEAKER_05:Um what's interesting to me is that um, you know, Abdul is more threatening to the black political establishment, the you know, more conservative ones, than Haley Stevens is, even though Abdul has more direct ties to the city of Detroit.
SPEAKER_04:He does, and I mean Warren Evans is behind it.
SPEAKER_05:And and has been doing so much good work. And so I think, you know, it's interesting to me to see the threats, but you saw that in um in New York City with Mandami, where the black political establishment did not embrace him.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I mean a lot of that is just Islamophobic tropes and anti-Arab sentiment that I hear off the record on background from so many Detroit officials officials.
SPEAKER_05:I think there's part of that, and I think there is a feeling of displacement if we're being real about the situation. I heard um a pro political who somebody I respect talked about talked about the browning of black power. This idea that other people are coming into our very fragile space and taking our seats. So when you have a city where you don't have a U.S. congressman representing the city anymore, you've got Rashida Talib and you've got um Sri Thanadar, um then it feels like wait a minute, why are they able to be there and displacing us? And there have been long-standing conflicts between black people and other people of color because that's what happens in a nation like the United States. People of color fight each other, and everybody is taught to be anti-black, even black people from you know birth. So um, you do have a reality of racism directed at black people from other people of color. There's no question about that. However, the racism that white people also direct at us sometimes gets minimized. We can talk about Karen in one sentence and not put Haley Stevens in that block. But we automatically put, you know, Abdul in with every other Arab person who's ever harmed us, and that's because we are also encouraged to stereotype and to, you know, not see each other as whole. Um ultimately I think that the biggest threat to white supremacy is a multiracial coalition, and that we've got to build bridges, we've got to be more intentional about accepting and acknowledging the fact that people of color of all ethnicities are being harmed by white supremacy in much of the same way. And we aren't each other's enemy. The enemy is the systems of injustice that oppress us, not individuals. When we get to that point, then we're gonna be less concerned with do we want a Muslim guy, do we want an Arab guy representing us? Um, and more concerned with what does he stand for and what has his track record been or her track record been in the process of getting us there? Because racial identity and ethnicity is too easily manipulated to serve the interest of a racist state.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think some of the criticisms that I hear about Mallory is obviously the fact that she replaced Marshall Bullock in in the legislature, and and folks still here refer to Marshall as Senator Bullock. You know, they they still turn and are like, wait, you're not our senator anymore. Um and they'll tell me that they don't see Mallory here. A lot of the criticism that I hear about Abdul is the fact that Abdul, why are you running for these high-up positions like governor and the most difficult seat to be elected to, U.S. senator? Um, why not go for smaller seats, you know, earlier in your career?
SPEAKER_05:Aimlo, brown man. However that's what they say. That's what they tell him. You know, stay in your place.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, these don't ask that Don Mallory, who's the state senator.
SPEAKER_05:It's it's ridiculous. You know, he has a record of service by this point. He has served as a um, first of all, as a professor of educ medical education. He has served as the first director of the health department after bankruptcy, after it was, you know, taken apart. He had to rebuild it. He left to run for governor, and that may have been premature, but since then he's been at Wayne County doing a lot of good things around health and wellness. He's published books, he's got a national, you know, track record. At some point, why don't we evaluate him on the merits of his, you know, track record, what he has done, and also on the merits of his um his his his campaign philosophies. Um and the same thing with Halle Stevens, you know, open yourself up, show us what you've done. I'm not giving you my support unless I believe you see me and you see my community and you know my community. If you don't know my community, and I mean my by my community east side of Detroit, right? If you don't know my community, meaning low-income black people who are dealing with, you know, intersectional injustices, then why should I support you when there's this guy over here who does and who's tried to address many of these issues imperfectly? Abdul is not a perfect person, but neither am I. He's made mistakes, but so have I. And so sometimes I think we spend so much time um, you know, focusing on what somebody isn't, especially when they are a you know racialized human being, that we don't see what they are. And, you know, as much as I defended um Mary Sheffield against, you know, charges that she's not very smart, and certainly, you know, that's obviously not the case because people can now speak to, you know, how well she can, you know, defend her record and speak specifically to policy ideals from sunup to sundown. But as much as I defended her, I defend any person who is being, you know, stereotyped and minimized based on who they are and their identity, even if it's a white person. I mean, you know, if there are white people running for office who've done great works in the community, I'm not holding it against them. Thank you for showing up in our community. Um, but I think that that's going to require a sea change. And so here I am today, I'll be speaking about the Black Detroit Democracy Project. And people are, well, is that a conflict? If you believe in a multiracial, you know, coalition, why the Black Detroit Democracy Project? But it's because I believe that most black voters are more concerned with what a person will do for them than with that person's identity. And I think a lot of black voters have just become jaded to the belief that nobody running for office will do anything for them. Democracy doesn't work, and they've given up. And I'm trying to restore that hope.
SPEAKER_04:Well, good luck. I I'm looking at this Haley Stevens with Tyrone Carter, Michael Howard, Sri Tanadar, Brenda Carter, and Joe Tate standing behind her. Um it's interesting. Shree was here at this fixens event when she talked to me about why she voted for the Charlie Kirk resolution. Shree on stage talked about why he couldn't vote for the Charlie Kirk resolution because he represents black Detroiters. On stage, Joe, you know, I mentioned earlier talked about the team player uh aspect of why he's backing Haley. And uh also talked about the fact that he believes Haley is the best uh choice to represent black residents across the state. He said, Who is going to be able to be the ones who are going to push back and say, no, this isn't right? We said we're seeing not only those opportunities that have been part of our government institution to help the black community, we're actually seeing our history erased. So there is a this you know dynamics. This is Joe Tate. So there's a dynamic of accurately assessing the issue. And then I think to your perspective, and those, you know, certainly my peers and others who are looking at this race and saying Haley Stevens is the furthest out of Mallory, Abdul, and Haley to represent us. Well, go ahead.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, do people feel like Joe Tate represented them well in the black community in Michigan? Um, maybe he's my representative, and I, you know, think he's a decent guy. I was unable to sit down with the man. Now he did, and I want to acknowledge this, he did through his office help bring funding to the MAC Avenue project on behalf of Gross Point Farms, which then assigned the funds to ECN to manage because we were running the initiative. But outside of that, um, you know, he went to grad school with our chief sustainability officer, Ricky Ackerman. And Ricky cannot secure a sit down while he's working on sustainability issues in our community. So um, and by the way, you know, just full disclosure, Ricky is not a black man, he is a white man who works for ECN. Um, but there's no let black people speak for themselves about who represents them, first of all. And what our priorities are maybe very different than the people who are elected to office are saying they are. Um, I don't pretend to speak for black people, I speak for myself and I share information that hope is valued by black folks. But um I think that Haley Stevens' track record has not been serving the community that I serve. And that's all I'm gonna say. And if it is, let her show me how. Let her show me how. And and maybe we can talk about that in the future. Maybe we can have her on here and she can explain how she has advanced the interests that I care about. Other than that, it feels to me like it's an insider's game. There's a click, and we decide who we're gonna support, and that click has been failing us.
SPEAKER_04:It has it certainly is. I mean, when I have conversations with Democratic voters on the ground in the base, that's exactly what they say. Um, Haley, I but I do believe she would be more than happy to come on on this show and and talk to you guys about um exactly that. She views herself as the closest person um in this race to black Detroiters. I mean, she talks about her dad uh owning a business in Detroit.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Uh I want to I want to get back into it.
SPEAKER_05:No, we can go into the history of Detroit and what some of those business owners did and did not do for Detroit black people, but owning a business here doesn't mean that. Let's go back.
SPEAKER_04:I I want to go back to to um talking about the the governatorial race. That's the one we haven't really dove into uh yet. But just you know, talking about Benson, Duggan, of course, Chris Swanson is the other Democrat running. Um Benson, or excuse me, Duggan and Whitmer, Governor Whitmer, were very far away in 2018. Do you remember that? Doug Duggan was not a fan of Whitmer to that according to news reports. Um, but now he's singing a very different tune. He is saying that he is absolutely in love with her sort of bipartisan attitude and spirit, and they seem to be closer in political perspective and agenda than ever before. Do you see? I mean, of course, Whitmer did not endorse Lieutenant Garland governor uh Lieutenant Governor Garland Gilchrist. I believe that's the first lieutenant governor running for governor not to receive the endorsement of their governor for the first time in three cycles, that's according to Gongwar. Um Whitmer accord uh reportedly said that she didn't want to continue the trend because none of those lieutenant governor candidates went on to be elected as governor. So she didn't want to continue the the cycle. Um but it does seem to me that that her you know her her p political sort of mind is in the exact same place as Mike Duggins.
SPEAKER_05:I don't know where her political mind is. I don't know what she stands for, and I'll be really honest with you. Um, you know, I think that there has been uh I I think that the um let's work both sides form of government when one side is trying to is sending troops into cities is dangerous. And I think that uh there are people who think, you know, it's it makes us safer if we don't, you know, poke the devil in the eye. Maybe the devil won't come after us, but I think that the devil is also, you know, relying on our silence and our weakness and our fear. And when we don't stand together, it makes it much easier for us to be torn apart. Um, so I don't know where the governor's mind is. I know who Mike Duggan has been as mayor, and I think it's safe to say that there are many aspects of the city of Detroit that improved under his leadership in terms of things like garbage collection and street lights and you know, park maintenance.
SPEAKER_04:What do you point to at the state level that Governor Whitmer has done to improve the state?
SPEAKER_05:Oh, I mean, I think that Governor Whitmer at the state level has done things. I mean, she created a poverty task force and um innovated some things that we are still looking at right now. I think there's women in Michigan who are young mothers who are getting, you know, um income transfers um every yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I think about Michigan Reconnect, my people my age.
SPEAKER_05:Michigan Reconnect. I think that she has to the balance of her gubernatorial um you know role done some good things. I think what disciplines abortion rights certainly, um you know, her appointments to courts, um, you know, I think that she has done a good job in many ways. Um but we're at a different moment right now, and we're all responding to that moment. And the question is in this moment, are there people who will negotiate away our rights or people who will fight for something different, not to keep the status quo, but is there a new vision for what the status quo should be so that we can fight for that?
SPEAKER_04:Certainly, Republicans have their vision and they are not afraid. We we were Mallory McMurrill held up a 2025 Project 2025 book at the Democratic National Convention last year. She went viral for doing it, saying this is exactly what they're going to do today.
SPEAKER_05:She needs to have her own book. What is your playbook? We know what theirs is, and you can't keep talking about Project 2025 without just normalizing that conversation. If you have a playbook, play it, right? And I think that's what voters might be looking for. That's what this voter is looking for. This is what this advocate is looking for, is not preserving the status quo. And that feels a lot like where Democrats are right now. I remember when they asked, you know, um, Kamala Harris, what is wrong? What do we need to fix? Well, I think the economy is really strong, and that sounds really good if you have money. But if you don't have money, a job, or a house you can afford, that sounds really disingenuous. And I think speaking truth to the problems that we have is extremely important. And so whoever it is that we have as leaders, I hope that they're really moving beyond how do we defend ourselves against Trump? How do we save as much of the status quo as we can from that to how do we cast a brand new vision for what America should look like? Because the biggest threat to Trump, in addition to a multi um ethnic coalition, would be um a vision that is compelling and competing with his enough to get his people to say, oh, okay, well, I'm gonna move on from that. I mean, a lot of his people are not in love with him. A lot of his people voted for him for reasons that make no sense to me.
SPEAKER_04:Wouldn't it be something if we get all the way to, you know, uh September, August, 2026, Whitmer is about to, you know, be term limited and step down, we're gonna new governor. Wouldn't it be something if she did all this and we still ended up getting troops in Detroit? I mean, I mean, that's the sort of nightmare political scenario for Governor Whitmer.
SPEAKER_05:It is the nightmare scenario for every human being that we have troops in our cities, right? Um, and you know, I think that there's this mindset that Trump is sending troops in the cities um that disobey him or disagree with him. And they'll go there first. And when we're done, when he's done going to those cities, he can end up in our city as well because he set a precedent and he's lowered the bar. Right. Um, but you know what? I know you're busy, and I have something to do as well, Sam. I want to thank you for um coming in on such a busy day because I know you've got to rush to the debate.
SPEAKER_04:We're going to Southfield for the Detroit Mayor's debate.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, well, you know, there's no place in Detroit that you could do this.
SPEAKER_04:None, none.
SPEAKER_05:Anyway, thank you so much for listening to the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. Be sure to like, rate, and subscribe to our podcast on all platforms, and of course, support Black Independent Reporting on Detroit1Million.com because good journalism costs.
