Authentically Detroit
Authentically Detroit is the leading podcast in the city for candid conversations, exchanging progressive ideas, and centering resident perspectives on current events.
Hosted by Donna Givens Davidson and Orlando P. Bailey.
Produced by Sarah Johnson and Engineered by Griffin Hutchings.
Check us out on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter @AuthenticallyDetroit!
Authentically Detroit
Black Detroit Democracy Podcast: Protecting Students, Defying ICE, And Rethinking Power In Detroit
The Authentically Detroit Podcast Network in collaboration with Detroit One Million presents: The Black Detroit Democracy Podcast, hosted by Donna Givens Davidson and Sam Robinson!
Together, Donna and Sam illuminate the complexities of Detroit’s unique political landscape and give residents a resource for navigating civic engagement and election season.
In this final episode of the year, they confront ICE targeting of Detroit students and families, press local leaders on silence and accountability, and weigh how Michigan’s political shifts will shape real safety, housing, and power.
For more episodes of the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast, click here.
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SPEAKER_03:Have you ever dreamed of being on the airwaves? Well, the Authentically Detroit Podcast Network is here to make those dreams come true. Formerly known as the Deep Network and located inside the Stademeyer, the Authentically Detroit Podcast Network offers studio space and production staff to help get your idea off of the ground. Just visit authentically d dot com and send a request through the contact page.
Donna Givens Davidson:Welcome to the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. Every week we open this podcast with a reading of the preamble to the Detroit City Charter, read by the one and only Bryce Detroit. The City Charter is our Constitution, which defines our rights and the way government should work. I'm Donna Givens-Davidson, President and CEO of the East Side Community Network.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm Sam Robinson, founder of Detroit One Million.
Donna Givens Davidson:Thank you for listening in and supporting this expanded effort to build another platform of authentic voices for real people in the city of Detroit. We want you to like, rate, and subscribe to our podcast on all platforms. The purpose of this podcast is to encourage Detroit citizens to stay vigilant in the fight for justice and equality with a special call to action for Black Detroit. We seek to build awareness of our history as a gateway to freedom, a beacon for justice, and a laboratory of liberation. Welcome back to the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast. It's time for Word on the Street where we break down what everybody's been saying behind the scenes. Sam, what have you heard?
SPEAKER_02:Well, Donna, uh, good to be here and virtually with you. It's a snow day today. And so I'm thinking about all the all the kids and all your folks that were able to stay home today, all the parents that didn't have to drive their kids to work, and all the bus drivers uh that got a got a day off.
Donna Givens Davidson:Can we can we start with Michigan firing its coach today?
SPEAKER_02:I see this news is coming on my Twitter, and yeah, I am it's been it's been a decade and a half since uh the first thing that I thought of was what football team has, what coaches. Michigan State, you know, they just got this Northwestern coach who people say you know did a lot with a little bit. Northwestern has rigged, rigid academic standards that you know mean Pat Fitzgerald when he was there as the head coach, he I think he didn't do very well the last few seasons. They'll say, well, it's because he didn't have that great of talent and he's gonna have more resources now. So now Michigan is in a position now. Sherrard Moore, um, this black head coach, I believe he was the first black head coach in the team's history, correct?
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, so you know, I was asked in another group, they said, Do I think he's gonna survive? And I said, No. Um, because when you have a$12 million,$10 million quarterback, you know, through the NIL, you have to perform a little better. I know he's a freshman, but they're they're paying this guy. And so, you know, all bets are off. And other than that, it just felt the team felt like it was kind of mediocre to me. Um, and as a longtime Michigan fan, that was kind of disturbing. But I think the other thing is that when Michigan State upgraded its football coach, Michigan has no choice but to try to improve, you know. So maybe I'm being unfair, but I don't think that the real reason for the termination is the reason given because of an inappropriate relationship. I think they hired a private investigator to find a reason to hire him because they gave him such a large contract, you couldn't really fire him without cause, without incurring a lot of debt. Now, this could be you know incorrect. This is just my guess. I always assumed he would be gone, and now he is.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you were right. I will tell you that it's sort of unfortunate. This poor young woman, staffer, is having her Instagram and name all over social media. And I just, you know, I don't think you know, she she's a subordinate of the guy, and so it's an unbalanced relationship. It's not quite Mel Tucker, right? It's you know, so I guess somewhat similar, but Mel Tucker was a whole different similar.
Donna Givens Davidson:If she's a subordinate, then we have to assume that she did not have full um control over her decision making, and maybe she did, right? But I think that you know, the reason why it's not allowable is because of the undue influence that somebody who is supervising somebody can exert over a subordinate. And I think it's important to respect her privacy because he's the one who violated, not her, to my acknowledge. You know, hopefully, you know, let's let's not drag her name through the mud, but right, right anyway.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And so we're in a whole, you know, I sports. I'm watching LeBron, Donna Givens Davidson. I remember you remember when LeBron James came into our basketball league? Because I do, I was around for that. I was, I think, seven or six years old when LeBron uh you know is drafted in the NBA. And soon thereafter he becomes my favorite player. And now all of my peers are thinking of a future without uh, you know, whatever you think about LeBron. He's been a really branching, so I always have. Yeah, I mean, he's been a great role model, and he's getting older and he's not scoring as much anymore. And we see the writing on the wall that is he's going to retire. And it's just a little sad, you know.
Donna Givens Davidson:It's professional sports, so people have a life cycle, and his has been longer than most because he did start at 18. And I remember when he started, the predictions that he was just going to meet some type of bad end were so great. And instead, what he did was he established businesses. Whatever you think about his relationship with his wife, he has one. They have kids together, he has helped some people out, many people helped elevate them, and he's had a relatively scandal-free career as a football player. Um, and people expected him, wanted to see him fail. They were really and he could have played football.
SPEAKER_02:I said he could have played football, basketball career.
Donna Givens Davidson:Basketball, oh my goodness. He could have played football and balls my mind. No, but absolutely basketball.
SPEAKER_02:He was the star wide receiver in high school.
Donna Givens Davidson:No, yeah, but he, yeah. But you know, people wanted his downfall.
SPEAKER_02:They did.
Donna Givens Davidson:They made fun of him. Remember, he got a Hummer when he was in high school. This is before NIL, and they were like, oh my God, all these bad morals. And what you have seen is somebody who, at the very least, is um leading a pretty average, ordinary life for um somebody who makes much money as a basketball player. Let me get the sport right. Um, there are others who were heralded and seen as role models who have not been as successful as he is, both on and off the court. And we start this way with Road on the Street just because talking about everything else is just gonna, you know, turn more of my hair gray, have to cover up the gray. Um, let's talk about ice.
unknown:Yeah.
Donna Givens Davidson:Ice, ice, baby, it's cold outside. We're home because of ice, but what's going on with ice?
SPEAKER_02:Uh, advocates, Michigan Immigration Rights Center, um, advocates with different uh nonprofits across Detroit, um, and you know, family members, classmates, teachers of these Western International High School students. You remember back last year, I think Roop Raj uh did the interview with Mike Duggan. Roop asked Duggan if ICE uh is showing hostility to Detroiters if they're in our community. How are you going to push back? Will you push back as an independent? He said, you know, we worked with ICE during the first Trump administration. Uh, they were not terrorizing our community. That's something that Gabby Santiago, Romero, and others have said that's not true. They were terrorizing our community. And now, uh again, you know, fast forward, uh, it seems like the activity and presence of these immigration enforcement officers, agents, and the customs and border patrol have increased. Uh seems like these high these Western high school students, uh, based on the uh you know testimony from their loved ones and advocates, feels like they're being targeted.
Donna Givens Davidson:Well, they are.
SPEAKER_02:That's something that you know, it feels like they're being targeted from their school, right? They're saying that they're getting picked up being followed home, uh, followed home from from work sites. There was a man, 34-year-old man with a one-year-old daughter this week, um, who his family is is is asking lawmakers to press ICE on his release. Um, you know, ICE has been giving or been given orders from uh the Trump administration to just sort of uh deport anyone, um detain anyone uh that is not a a you know permanent legal resident, which is not the way that they have conducted themselves in the past. Um typically they have honored the legal system and process. Uh this man, his name is Ernesto, uh, was awaiting a hearing, as many of these folks are, you know, they'll go to the courthouse and then all of a sudden uh they're picked up to their surprise, they are picked up and arrested by ICE. And so, you know, if you're the federal government saying, you know, respect our process, we want you to come here legally, uh, but you have to respect the process, and then you're arresting them while they're attempting to go through the legitimate process, as this man Ernesto was been here since I believe he was six years old, maybe even as early as three years old. His sister was here. He has a Michigan driver's license, a social security card. You know, he's a construction worker, and so he's a productive member of society with a wife and a child. What threat does he pose?
Donna Givens Davidson:Oh, I mean, I think we're arguing on terms that are not necessarily rational in my point of view. We know that this is not about threats. We know that you don't pick high school students up because you accidentally go somewhere because of threats. You're picking them up because you're trying to rid the nation of black and brown people. And so as many people as you can get out of here, you are. And it's really, really tragic to me. Um, I was um in Southwest Detroit, I mentioned the story a lot because it was such an important and impactful event for me. I was at a poverty research center event in Southwest Detroit, and there was a poet who described ice, and we're talking about 2017. He was describing ice and his experience with ice and then breaking into homes, then following people around. Um, and then, you know, even in the first Trump administration, little girls walking around with laminated copies of their birth certificates so they could prove that they were citizens of the United States. And, you know, a lot of people have referred to Nazi Germany, but what it makes me think of is slave catchers. These people who are being deputized to go out and find people who are here illegally. Detroit, when I talk about Detroit being a gateway to freedom, there's actually, as you know, a statue commemorating Detroit as a gateway to freedom because people came from Detroit through the Underground Railroad, which, sorry, Portia Williams is not an actual Underground Railroad. It was a way to get people out of, you know, um, forced labor camps in the South into freedom in the North. And they came to Detroit. And sometimes they send slave catchers to Detroit. And at that time, it was illegal for states to harbor people who had escaped slavery because they were considered property. And it was stolen property if you kept stolen property from being returned to their owners. This is the history of the United States. So we don't have to look at Nazi Germany. Understanding the Nazi Germany looked at the United States, and Hitler was influenced by racism and discrimination in the United States, not to minimize what happened in Nazi Germany, but also not to minimize slavery, to understand that racism is part of the DNA of this nation. And at times we suppress it better than others, and it has reared its ugly head. And for us to pretend this is not an attack on race is ridiculous to me. And then for us, those of us who are, you know, here multiple generations here, and we are not immigrants, and you know, our grandparents had you know birth certificates, and we were born here and we consider this to be our nation. What is it, American descendants of slavery? When they see me, when they see you, when they see another black person, they see somebody who is not white. And that alone makes us questionable as American citizens. And so um I want to say, you know, the poem, um, first they came for this group, and then they came first, they came for the gypsies, and they came for the union workers, then they came from the Catholics, and then they came for me, and there was nobody left to protest. If we're not protesting this now, if we're not putting our arms around physically and um and metaphorically around people who are being, you know, targeted for abuse and harm, what are we doing? I'm not just a mother, I'm a grandmother. Imagine my grandchildren, imagine my children having this happen. Imagine you and your future children, younger siblings, family members having this happen to them, um, the terror they must feel. Because they're not leaving here and being sent right back to their countries. A lot of times they are detained in something that is equivalent to a concentration camp. There's no tracking them, there's no, you know, way to really do anything to fight for them. And I'm glad that we're fighting back. I'm glad we're saying something, but I'm not certain that any politician or any school board member really has the authority to change these decisions. Let's keep going. I know that there have been a couple of success cases, but I think that really we have to think through how we're going to work collectively to try to change this, you know, legally. And I'm not sure what kind of protests will work, but it's absolutely terrifying.
SPEAKER_02:It is. I will tell you uh that Kenneth Russell, a uh multi-time guest on this show, was one of the many who spoke last night um during a DPSCB Board of Education meeting uh at uh Martin Luther King Junior High School. Um Nicola Nicola Vitti, the superintendent of the district, uh, has sort of symbolically sided with advocates and activists in a letter. Some folks say the letter is not far enough. They want um to guarantee that federal immigration agents do not enter district property. That is something that VD said last night that they have not done to this point. Um a lot of folks want the district to take a lot harder stance against this. You know, they say um uh safer transportation counseling for for students that are dealing with uh this weight over and could you imagine like going through middle school and high school and having the threat of deportation hanging over your head?
Donna Givens Davidson:I mean, that would be old days they had underground railroads, right? An underground railroad was somebody's basement. People built shelters and churches and other places to keep people away out of harm's way. Is there a legal route right now to protect them all the way to the Supreme Court, which still hasn't decided that birthright citizenship is constitutional? You know, we have a Supreme Court that is like, oh, okay, yeah, he should be able to do this and he should be able to do that. And so I don't know that there's a short-term legal solution. And I'm certainly not on here to advocate people breaking the law because I don't want to, you know, get locked up or have anything happen to me. But I am thinking that if we look in history, there are ways that we have protected people who are at harm's um way. And I don't know that Nikolai Vitti or any politician, no matter how well-intentioned, has the power to do that through the courts or through, you know, any other legal process. I mean, look, he's firing immigration judges. Um, he is deporting people without going through any due process. And when it reaches the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court is like, uh, let it happen. Because, you know, one of the things that has occurred to me is that the Supreme Court members who are supporting Trump, a lot of them knew exactly what he was going to do. I really do believe that there are people who are planning behind the scenes to make America white again, to bring back white supremacy, and they understand exactly what is expected of them in order to get there. For us to believe that Donald Trump and the Supreme Court members are acting independently of each other, I just don't believe it. I believe the Supreme Court, members of Congress, the president, and his administration have all colluded on a mechanism to do something they think is appropriate, and that is to bring back a new America or the old America. I could be wrong, but um, and I hate to be cynical. Of course, I agree with protest. I'm glad Nikolai VD signed it. Um, it's unfortunate that the candidate for governor who's running as an independent still has nothing to say on that or death threats against, you know, Democrats. I mean, he has absolutely nothing to say. He says people are tired of, you know, extremism, things like human rights and that kind of stuff. So um, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:One person who is not tired of talking about the rights of our fellow humans is Christine Sauvey. She is the communications director at the Michigan Immigration Rights Center. Um, you guys can go and read this wonderful post from earlier today from um Hannah Dellinger. She's a reporter at Chalkbeat Detroit. She was at the um meeting yesterday night. Uh yesterday, before the meeting, uh earlier in the morning, I had talked to Christine, the communications director for the Immigration Rights Center. And um, you know, she explained to me that all these students have pending court dates uh for asylum cases. Um, this African student, Moor Barr, uh Moore Bar, excuse me. He's a 19-year-old who came here um from Senegal. Um it's it's very uh uh legitimate reasons. Uh their representatives and family members say that they're seeking asylum and seeking permanent legal resident status. Um and so it you know it's really uh scary. Donna, I'm gonna have to send you this Pablo Torre finds out video released yesterday. Uh he interviews one of his uh reporters working on this story, interviews this man who was featured in one of the El Salvador president's sort of vanity videos. You remember when the White House was resharing. And reposting these sort of, you know, just straight torture videos, right? I mean, these people that uh were not even uh accused of crimes. One of the crimes that they're accused of are they'll have a tattoo that that the federal government says is gang related. Uh this man, his tattoo on his arm was a Real Madrid crown with a soccer ball. Uh, he's a soccer coach, you know, he has two sons. And it's just amazing, you know, his his family seeing him in the video. You know, they couldn't make him his face out completely, but they could recognize him by his hand. And he's still getting emotional talking about being in this, you know, because they thought they weren't ever getting out. I mean, the the way that the guards and the officials inside this maximum security prison are talking to them is as if you know they're they're going to be a part of this prison population for the rest of their life. In Baldwin, uh uh, it's called North Lake Correctional Facility. Um, there is a former prison that is now an ICE facility. And according to Christine Silvay, it is one of the largest ice facilities in the country that is a for-profit facility. It's owned by one of a handful of the large um firms that are doing work with uh the federal government right now to to house inmates. I think 1,800 beds. Um, but that is where more Ba is currently. Um, and that's gotta be you know not an ideal situation for any of those inmates in there.
Donna Givens Davidson:It's it's it's hate, it's hateful, and it's so hurtful to think about the then there's no even pretense that we don't hate you. There's just, you know, oh he should have had that tattoo. It's you know, it's so devastating to think about it and to hear about it. And um, you know, um Baldwin, Michigan, you know it's close to Baldwin, Michigan. Idawile, Michigan. The black resort, you know, where we used to go. And as a kid, we went to um Baldwin every summer. My grandmother had a house in Baldwin. She actually lived in um, I mean, in Idawild. She had lived in Idawild for a while and taught school in Idawild. So in the old days, people didn't say they were separated, but my grandmother lived full-time in Idawild, Michigan. My grandfather was in Detroit, my father was in high school, okay, and she was teaching there. And so growing up, we used to go to Idawild in the summer to stay in her house. And by then she'd moved back to Detroit and was actually living with us. But when we stayed in Bald, um Idawild, we went to Baldwin all the time. We went to Jones Ice Cream, which is still there. There was a um there was a driving theater in Baldwin. Um, there was a restaurant, a seafood restaurant we used to um go to. My mother always ordered frog legs and said they were delicious, tasted just like chicken. I ordered chicken. Um just chicken also tastes like chicken and doesn't look like a frog, you know. Um, but you go there now, and Baldwin is a prison town.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's real Trump country.
Donna Givens Davidson:I mean, it's it's the it's Trump country, and it's it's it, you know, you used to feel I felt safe. And it never occurred to me that we were unsafe. And we're talking about, you know, 50 years ago, I felt safer in Baldwin, Michigan than I do in 2025. And so um, you know, there's things that we can do, there's things that we must do, we must protest. I do want to um shout out um 42 forward. I sit on the board of 42 forward, and they are always on the right side of history. And so 42 Forward has been very active in gathering signatures and protesting this. Kenneth is our one of our leaders who participates in 42 Forward as long as well as many other young people. So, shout out to Vali and Imani who have been keeping it real and keeping us focused. But I think that we have to also think through what are some other things that we can do to keep people safe. You know, there's times there's kids who don't want to go to school. Are there other ways to educate children short of having to go to school because they're afraid to leave home? There's workers who are afraid to go to work. Are there other ways for us to support them so that those people who are afraid to leave home so that we can try to write out this wave of hatred that hopefully will come to an end in the near future because some act of God is gonna strike down this, you know, this crazy stuff that's happening in our nation? Um, we cannot just wait on legal means of um of redress. There's gotta be things that we can do to support and love on people who are being targeted for incarceration, enslavement. You know, I don't know. Are people doing labor in these camps before they send them other places? We don't know what's happening there. So um, wow, yeah, really awful.
SPEAKER_02:You know, talk about Duggan not um commenting on this. Uh, somebody that is not going to ask Duggan about ICE is Gary Torgau. He did uh what the Detroit um economic forum called Duggan's exit interview.
Donna Givens Davidson:And we're gonna take a break and come back and talk about that exit interview. Um, so let's take a break now, and um, we'll be back in a minute to have some conversations about what that exit interview looks like.
SPEAKER_03:Detroit 1 million is a journalism project started by Sam Robinson that centers a generation of Michiganders growing up in a state without a city with one million people. Support the only independent reporter covering the 2025 Detroit mayoral race through the lens of young people. Good journalism costs. Visit Detroit1million.com to support black independent reporting.
Donna Givens Davidson:We're back. We're gonna talk about the exit interview. Gary Torkoal interviewed um Mike Duggan and didn't ask him anything about all the failing housing projects in the city of Detroit. Didn't ask him anything about car insurance not really um declining um like he said it would. Remember, he spent money getting Marshall Bullock and Adam Ollier into the um state senate so they could help pass legislation that changed help to car insurance forever and did nothing to lower prices, really. But anyway, tell me about the exit interview.
SPEAKER_02:Well, we did learn an interesting anecdote about the NFL draft last year, that it almost didn't happen, Duggan says, because a security system went out. ATT rushed to fix it in 45 minutes. And this is all happening like within hours of the of the draft taking place. Uh, Duggan said that uh that he would not have had the draft go on if not for the surveillance system. And I really think about that, you know, like is that a political decision or is that a decision out of safety? Do you need a surveillance system?
Donna Givens Davidson:Is that a political decision or is that a political conversation to have? If you believe that you have 500,000 people in the city of Detroit and you say, Look, we're not gonna do this, it's not that you paid all this money to come here, go home. Um, great. Um, you know, I don't know, you maybe you can sell iced Eskimos. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:It was nearly a disaster, he said. And I just thought that was really funny. If we could not see that they say that they severed a fiber optic cable, uh, a crew working on the new hotel adjacent to the water square apartments there, those ten thousand dollar apartments that are very nice.
Donna Givens Davidson:Owned by Torgo.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Torgau uh is behind there. And Duggan, you know, because he's a caller and a fixer, he loves to talk about, you know, I picked up the phone and I called Mary Barra and we got the thing done. I picked up the phone and I called Dan Gilbert and we got the thing done. Duggan picked up the phone, he called ATT president David Lewis. Uh says he's he was the only person that could fix it. The CEO was the only person that could fix construction crews, separating off five office table.
Donna Givens Davidson:I believe the CEOs are well trained in the reconstruction. An electrician.
SPEAKER_02:The CEO is also an electrician.
Donna Givens Davidson:If I want anything fixed, and by the way, as a person who's a CEO, there's some things you can call me for, there's other things not. Okay. I can't don't call me for everything because there's stuff I don't know how to do. I mean, it's a ridiculous thing. And it's sort of like, you know, name-dropping, influence peddling, all of that kind of stuff. The reality is that Detroit has a number of problems that nobody's picked up the phone and called, and they're going to be dropped on the doorstep of our incoming, of our mayor-elect, um, things that have been um simmering for a while. And I think it is fair to give Duggan credit for those things that Duggan has done well. And I think it is fair to give him credit for those things that have not gone well. The challenge is that our news media has been really soft peddling all of this. You know, I'm reading articles in the paper that are saying things that really should have us concerned about the condition and the stability of housing in our city. And nobody's tying any of this to Doug and decision making. Not in the news media. It's sort of like, oh, this is happening. This is happening. Now you can get credit for building it. I built 10,000 affordable units, which is, you know, a lot of people say it's not true. But you're not getting credit for building something that didn't work. Um, and when it doesn't work, then people are, well, wait a minute, can we really trust this incoming mayor to keep up the good work? If this falls apart on her watch, that's my issue with news coverage. I think maybe I wouldn't even be so hard on Duggan if the news did a better job of being holding him accountable. With the issue related to um Gaianga, all of that was laid at Mary Sheffield's feet, and almost none of it at the feet of the person who approved the contract, who approved the contractor, and who was responsible for monitoring his activities. All of it is laid at the feet of the person who joined the rest of city council and saying yes to a contract the mayor asked her to sign. And so I think it's frustrating. And now you have this person saying, look at all these great things I've done, and now I'm gonna do it for the whole state. And I don't think that there's, I don't think he's gonna be governor. I just don't. I think you said some time ago, and you and I fought over this or disagreed with this, that you thought it was gonna be John James, right? And I said, I don't think so. But at this point, the polls are sort of reinforcing or supporting what you're saying, and that is that Duggan is drawn disproportionately from Democratics, Democrats, as opposed to Republicans. And you know that Republicans act like mob, they're in the mob, they all do the same thing. Um, there's very little disagreement among them, whereas Democrats have much so much more internal conflict. And I think you're probably right at this point.
SPEAKER_02:And well, I think my point earlier was that it's going to take a uh sort of historic uh effort from a Democrat. It's been since it's been four, three or four decades since a Democrat has won the governor's office in Michigan three straight terms.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We're a purple swingy state. And so when we see something for eight years, typically we get tired of it and say, you know, we want the other thing.
Donna Givens Davidson:But there's nothing typical about what's happening now.
SPEAKER_02:No, there is not.
Donna Givens Davidson:We have not had MAGA in my lifetime until now. We've had bad things, not MAGA. And we certainly did not have a popular, so-called Democrat running as an independent in the state. And so this throws everything up in the air. But at a time like this, where so many things feel threatened. Um, the one I have many criticisms of the Democratic Party. Don't get me started. But the consolidation of power by Republicans at every level of government under MAGA is scary to me. And the one thing we have that could serve as a partial safeguard is having a Democrat occupy the, you know, Democrats occupy state house, senate, and the gubernatorial mansion. We have somebody running for office who refuses to even criticize ever or disagree with ever. This person who is sending ice into schools, this person who is sending ice into workplaces, that is putting children in concentration camps and breaking up families. And if you can't disagree with them ever, that's really scary to me. If he wants to run as an independent, I don't have to love you, right? I just want to know that you can say there's a line that you can't cross, and I'm gonna defend, you know, because remember what the president wants to do. The president wants to send the National Guard into the city of Detroit. The president can't do that without gubernatorial consent. Not yet. And so now you have the absence of any resistance to the president's agenda. If he's running for office, don't just tell me about how you made Detroit great again or whatever else you want to do. Help me understand how you're going to protect the citizens of Detroit from a clearly, openly hostile federal government.
SPEAKER_02:In fairness to Duggan, he you know he doesn't say that, but he will talk about Dearborn when uh several right-wing provocateurs, uh, some Laura Loomer adjacent social media people. Uh I forget the guy's name. I'm not even gonna repeat it on the show because he's so irrelevant from Florida. They came to Dearborn and he did off his campaign uh count release like a 90-second video about condemning hate as it related to the people that brought uh you know things into Dearborn. So I think there is a line to the effect of he is willing to talk about um hate and prejudice when it is convenient or advocated.
Donna Givens Davidson:I don't even I think we can all disagree with hate, right? I think you know Well, I don't I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Republicans, I guess a lot of times.
Donna Givens Davidson:Not conversations, right? I'm saying right now we have ICE in our city, and he is mayor of our city. He is not mayor of Dearborn, right? He wants votes from Dearborn residents, who by the way, he thinks he can get that can help propel him to the White House. So of course, that's that. Oh, don't hate these people, but you're mayor of the city of Detroit. And as mayor of the city of Detroit, where are you? When during Trump's first term, when you had Black Lives Matter, you know, um protesters out in the streets, Duggan's Republican police chief was harassing protesters in the city of Detroit who were arguing for Black Lives Matter on Duggan's watch. When people came from outstate and were harassing the people who are counting votes, the police chief, his Republican police chief, said they have the right to free speech. So it's okay to harass poll workers, it's okay to harass these people, but it's not okay to merge without creating any type of violence. There were things that were done to intimidate or to create violence, and it happened on his watch. And then on his watch, they actually tried to have these people prosecuted. They defended a lawsuit, and then after the lawsuit was over, then they came back and tried to give new penalties to the same people who were just protesting peacefully. One of them had a chokehold around her neck and it was on the front page of a paper. Where was the voice of the mayor saying, This is wrong? This is unacceptable for my police department to do this.
SPEAKER_02:I will tell you one interesting thing that I noticed recently related to Duggan's independent governmental campaign, was the fact that when I was tweeting about um Zoran Mimdani in a completely separate context, uh I received a reply. Um I think it was about Abraham Ayosh, who uh just finally is acknowledging that he is running against Justin Unwen Yu. Uh took a minute for Abe to come out. He has not yet publicly announced his campaign, but you can go read my story on Michigan Chronicle right now. Um I think it was when Abe and Mary were um meeting outside of Northwest Activities Center on the day of the election. The day of the election, we learned from CNN's Aaron Burnett that Mike Duggan was actually in New York. Why do you think Mike Duggan was in New York on election night? I don't know. I haven't asked. Um, but I thought it was interesting in the context of I was tweeting about Zoran and Abraham Ayesh, and I get a reply from none other than the Citadesk NYC bot. Now, what is City Desk NYC bot? I might be getting that that phrase uh out of order, but it's a Twitter account that Cuomo, uh former governor Cuomo, paid for while he was running for mayor to just reply to every single Zoran tweet with a negative thing. And the bot replied with uh advocating for Mike Duggan. I mean, it was a it was a you know, Duggan has done you know things because of a straightforward, you know, it hasn't been because of DSA style politics when Gary Torgau uh, you know, I didn't mention in the exit interview. Why do you think uh two democratic socialists uh were successful on in their city council election? Duggan said, I don't think it was because of the philosophy, I think it was because of the door knocking strategy, which yes who did Duggan support in District 7, right? Yes, Gabby and Denzel door knocked the hell out of Tyrone. Well, who did Duggan because of what they were saying?
Donna Givens Davidson:Well, who did Duggan support in District 7?
SPEAKER_02:Duggan supported uh Karen Whitsett.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yes, Karen Whitsett, who stymied any kind of recess activity in the Michigan House really and blamed Republicans, Democrats, and sided with Republicans. So, you know, he's going to try to disavow um what she said. Now, here's where I I have just one little caveat. I think I was reading that Donald Trump is saying he's going to he's trying to pass a bill to put$1,000 to$1,500 in the the these um flexible spending accounts for taxpayers to help them with their insurance premiums that are increasing. Um, if your insurance premium is increasing by even$200 per month, that's not enough. And a lot of people are predicting that insurance premiums are going to increase by a lot more than that. When you look at the loss of services, when you look at some of the other things that are happening, the real question is will Democrat socialists become more popular in Michigan than anybody anticipated? I don't think anybody expected Mondami to win in New York. Um, but I believe that there's possibly untapped support for more progressive agendas. I think that there's possibly some type of movement. Um, and you do have a gubernatorial candidate who is at least flirting with the Democratic Socialist Party, and that's Garland um Gilchrist. And so if we were to have a wave of support for that in our state, and mind you, this is a state that both um supported um, oh my goodness, I can't think of um George Wallace and Jesse Jackson for govern um for president. Okay, this state we have. Supported people at political extremes in the past. You know, we have Bernie Sanders did really well. And that's without having the complete collapse of the social safety net. That's without having the hunt for people who are immigrants. And so I think that the real question is I mean, um opinion polls show that a lot of what is being done is unpopular. And the real question is whether or not some Democratic socialists in our state will be able to capitalize on that. I personally don't believe that the Democrats have elected a very strong or powerful um alternative to James and Duggan because she has a lot of detractors in Detroit. Jocelyn Benson. There are a lot of people who believe that she is racist and she has done a lot of racist things. And so there could be an anti-Jocelyn Benson vote that we have not calculated.
SPEAKER_02:In fairness to her, what is the racist thing you're mentioning?
Donna Givens Davidson:I want to make sure that that's oh, I mean, um, that she has fired black men, that she has done very racist things to black men who have worked for her. Um, there is a former employee of hers who sued her for racism not too long ago. Um, but that's especially among a lot of younger um people that I know who have a lot of criticisms about her. Um, and it's not always talked about, you know, in open circles, and it may not go anywhere, but I'm just saying I think that when you have a candidate who is seen as racist, it kind of is a threat to their candidacy.
SPEAKER_02:One of the things that I'm hearing about Jocelyn Benson uh in this current moment is her relationship to Ryan Friedrichs, who's obviously pushing hard for this data center. Um, he's the um sort of uh second in command to the vice president of related companies, development companies for uh Stephen Ross owns. And Oracle OpenAI um is trying to put a data center in Celine. I'm hearing rumblings that there may be more uh communities that will get these data centers that want to build, and they were I'm hearing there's gonna be more than just what is uh with the Saline.
Donna Givens Davidson:There's 10 under consideration. And what happens is they but Celine would be the largest. And when they go in there, Celine residents said we don't want it. The reason that they eventually caved is because you know, the people with the big bucks is an Oracle and ChatGPT threatened to sue, and they could not defend a lawsuit, and so they went ahead and went went ahead with it. Um I think this is where um things get really interesting because I don't know that there are any clean hands on any partisan side. I think that's where, again, the democratic socialist side is the side where you're seeing a lot of um willingness to protest things.
SPEAKER_02:When I think about Garland, though, do you think he would be willing to come out against data centers being Absolutely?
Donna Givens Davidson:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:I think I I don't know. I I don't know, I haven't heard that from him. He and I know he worked at Google for years.
Donna Givens Davidson:He did work at Google, but that's not you know, I think that I believe that he wants to win. And if he wants to win, that's his path to victory, is to align himself with democratic socialists, running as um, you know, um Whitmer Light won't go.
SPEAKER_02:And I think that when people not in the context of she's not endorsing him, also.
Donna Givens Davidson:Well, she's not endorsing him because again, I think that he has also aligned himself with various causes. He's talked about corporate pack money, he's talked about, you know, um the Gaza as genocide. He has really come out and said the kinds of things that alienate your mainstream Democrats. Um he may run, you know, if he runs an independent campaign, I don't know. I just think that there's a um a lot of wild cards because we are in unprecedented times. I don't think that we can look to the past to dictate what will happen in the future. I think I wonder whether or not the politics of the moment are being captured by either mainstream party or, you know, this guy who's the certain mayor Detroit, who is somewhere between a Democrat and a Republican, you know. I just don't know if that's the moment that we're in. If we're in a moment of crisis, and that crisis is perceived as crisis by your average American person, then um then we're gonna see some difference. We're gonna come back, take a break, and come back, and we're gonna talk about Ayesh versus Owenu. It's an interesting race. I know you're really excited about it because you are a journalist, and this is gonna be great political conversation. Two people who we like running against each other. It doesn't happen very often. Be right back.
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Donna Givens Davidson:And we're back to talk about Abraham Ayish and Justin Owenu, both of whom I consider friends, now running against each other, possibly. Can you talk about that, Sam? What what are you hearing what are you hearing and how do you know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, uh, it's interesting. Today, the news was that Justin received an endorsement from Wayne County executive Warren Evans. Um, he is really consolidating support in Detroit. A lot of the black establishment Democrats um that have been operating for some years and whose name really carries weight when you talk about um endorsements. You know, he's certainly got um the heavy hitters like Joe Tate, uh black Democratic Arctic Keith Williams, he's got Jonathan Kinlock, he's got now Warren Evans, and he's got a host of River Roots.
Donna Givens Davidson:Are there other people who supported Solomon King? Okay, anyway, go on.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that that was that was my you know, that was my intro. Uh he's got a host of of endorsements early on. I I do think we are going to see a lot of um legislators that know Abe personally. Um back Ayash. Ayash, of course, was at one point uh the majority floor leader, that's second in command, second highest ranking official um in the state house. He's moved from ham tramec. Uh, a lot of different factors uh go into that, according to him, and I'm sure he'll have uh an opportunity to explain why he felt the need to uh no longer represent Ham Tramic in the legislature. Um, but there's a lot of people asking, you know, why are you running for this seat? Yeah, given that it's downriver, why not? You know, uh uh with Stephanie Chang's uh position, you know, what why not wait and see you know what what it looks like after next year's election? Um he stepped down early in light of the uh the uh term limit changes. And so he'll be on the ballot um this August against Justin, and I'm sure other Democrats might step into the race. They might not want to, though, because Justin and Abe are expected to be the lead fundraisers in this Democratic primary that I think will reveal uh you know the attitudes of downriver voters. Um Justin in his intro launch pointing out the fact that you know, minus former state senators Marshall Bullock and Adam Ollier, there no longer is a black male in the state senate. Uh we do we have we have Sarah Anthony and Erica Geis who who won't be there. Um, but and then um Sylvia Santana as well is a is a state senator, black woman state senator from Detroit. Um so he'll he'll point that out um in his pitch. He is obviously uh have experience as a um uh uh environmental organizer and activist. He is a um attorney um in and has taught classes uh about union and labor rights. Justin is uh the first ever director of entrepreneurship. That is a position that he works for under Mayor Mike Duggan for the city of Detroit and is just you know generally tamped in um with what's going on. Uh you compare it to Abe, who is sort of going to mark off every single progressive litmus test item, right? He's going to say the war in Gaza is a genocide. He's going to say I'm not taking corporate PAC money and you should be suspicious of all the lawmakers that are. He is going to say uh the things that uh I think a lot of voters on the Democratic left who were unhappy with the Democratic Party are going to want to hear. Um, and I think Justin, while uh his identity is certainly, I mean, he he was an organizer for Bernie Sanders's campaign uh back in 2020. Um comes from an environmental um organizing background. When you ask him about corporate pack money, he says, I don't think DTE would would quite frankly want to give me money. I've spent uh years uh working against their uh their efforts. So you know it is really interesting, I think clearly um another sort of um um micro chasm race of the infighting within the Democratic Party. And you know, of course, Abe and Justin know each other, they have a relationship to a degree, which you know is gonna get we're gonna see how contentious it gets.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, you know, two things. One, I like both of them. When I started teaching at Columbia, that's when um Justin started at law school at Columbia University. So I feel this kinship, you know. Listen, we started at the same time, he's done. I don't think I'm done. Um, I like him, and he has done a lot of good things, right? Um in 2024, I believe Ayish invited me to the state of the state to be his guest, and I sat on the floor of the um the chamber right next to him, right, in the Capitol building. And I was really honored. I don't know him, and he, you know, liked my politics, and so he invited me there as a representative from his district. And so, you know, I have a certain level of appreciation and respect for the fact that he, you know, showed up and wanted representation from the east side of Detroit. That was cool, right? Um, we make politics personal, and we say, I want this kind of person to uh be elected, and then you know, we get real tribal with it, right? And I mean, listen, I'm so happy we have a black woman mayor, but not not, you know, that's that's something that feels good to me, but it's not why I voted for Mary Sheffield, right? And I think that we do want representation, but I want representation of people who stand with me on political issues. The fact of some of these endorsements actually is a turn off to me. And what I want to know from Justin is do you stand with Keith Williams? Are you going to stand with the sort of, you know, conservative, black, you know, capitalist side of the Democratic Party? Are you really going to stand up on some issues that people who are progressive want to see as issues? Um, all things being equal, you know, you know, this is Justice Community. I don't know. I really want to know what they're running on, what they're saying. Um, we know what Abraham Ayish will do in um in the Senate because we know what he did at the House.
SPEAKER_02:We haven't what his coalition will look like as well. I mean, it's gonna feature people like Stephanie Chang and and Rashida near him, right?
Donna Givens Davidson:You know, Stephanie, I love Stephanie. I absolutely love Stephanie Chang. She is somebody who has been a friend of the organization. She has stood up when we need to stand up, and she is also a Chinese American woman. And I know people who are running against her saying we need a black woman in that seat. And, you know, so now you have black and brown people fighting each other. And, you know, again, what do you stand for? Stephanie has been advocating for things that matter to me. And she shows up at every event that we have, she's always supporting the work that we do in every way that she can, not just us, but everybody I know. I just think she's great. And so I don't want my support for the this race, even though I don't vote in that district, to be about the identity of the person. And as much as I hate the term identity politics, I want it to be about what they stand for, who their coalition is, and what I think they're going to do to bring about justice in our state. Because right now, whether you are black, brown, Asian, whatever you are, we are all at risk. And hatred towards us is there. Now, of course, I know Justin loves our people and he's an environmental justice person. But again, what will you stand for and what will you do if you're elected into office? Because some of the people that that same cast of characters have supported have not stood with us. So that's where I stand for.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I will say I think that's a pretty good way to leave it off there. You guys can go read my uh initial report on Abe Ayash, who has not yet publicly announced his campaign he he did file back in October. But Justin versus Abe is going to be quite the uh uh race when it comes to the people standing behind them. I think uh you know, we're we're gonna see some sort of people who are typically very close to each other sort of be, you know, you know, unfortunately pitted against each other.
Donna Givens Davidson:And I and I don't like that. I know that for you, yeah. As a journalist, this makes it much more exciting. But as you know, a person who is really pushing for just as an activist, it's not exciting. As an activist, I kind of wish that one of them had chosen to run in a different, a different race and done something differently because we could use that.
SPEAKER_05:What I'm hearing from a lot of folks, yeah.
Donna Givens Davidson:Um, and so you know, if I had any advice, I'd say, you know, maybe there's a different pathway. I don't know what the residency laws are in terms of having to live in a certain area before you, you know, run for office. I don't know if it's too late to move, but it's not too late to move. Maybe I should consider that so that we, you know, because there is, and I think it's legitimate. I don't want to delegitimize the desire to have black representation. It means something, right? And I don't want to minimize the fact that it means something. It just doesn't mean everything, right? But if you are running and threatening the possibility of black representation, is that your best look? Or can you find a way to run and support black representation where it looks like it's doable? I mean, that's the other flip side of it. I do want Owenu to prove to me that he's not Keith Williams. I don't think he has to prove he's not, but I can fight him.
SPEAKER_02:I don't think Justin Owen is Keith Williams. I'll I'll say that. You know what I mean.
Donna Givens Davidson:I want to show, I want to know that he can be really independent and challenge those narratives. Right. But you know, at the same time, you know, and I'll also say that some of the same people um did support Denzel McCampbell.
SPEAKER_02:And Justin supported Denzel McCampbell. He donated to him.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, yeah. So did Abraham. So did Ayish. I was at an event where they were both there, okay. So it's like um so as a as an activist, as a person who is a citizen, just wanting to see good things happen in our state, I think that would be a very disturbing race that I absolutely hope doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_02:Well, just send an Abe if you're listening, you know, you guys can make that happen. But uh, in in lieu of that, uh, I want to say again, as we approach these holiday times, thank you all for listening. Uh, I really appreciate the messages on on Twitter and Instagram and my emails. You guys say, oh, uh, another episode. I, you know, people are are loving the Maxwell Murray episode from last week.
Donna Givens Davidson:Oh, really?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I want to give another shout out to the episode. Amazing.
Donna Givens Davidson:Can we just talk about Maxwell Murray? He is so amazing. I'm so glad that you introduced us. Um, and I really enjoyed this. This is going to be our last episode for the year.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
Donna Givens Davidson:And, you know, so I just want to thank you, Sam, because I remember I texted you earlier in the year and said, Hey, you want to do a podcast together? And you didn't hesitate. You were like, Yes. And we've been doing it together since what, February or March or something like that.
SPEAKER_02:I know, and we have so many episodes that I'll just listen and that my mom listens to, and my uh Twitter people will listen to and say, Oh, you said this on the podcast. Is it, you know, I just really appreciate all the engagement and all of the feedback. Um, I appreciate you, Donna, for for you know, hosting the show with me and inviting me here to be a part of the Authentically Detroit network, uh, the Black Detroit Democracy Podcast, the Sam and Donna experience, as one of my things have said to me.
Donna Givens Davidson:Some people have talked about that to me too. They're like, okay, you know, you and Sam have really interesting dynamic and they love it, right? And I think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be intergenerational, it's supposed to be a little bit different. We don't see eye to eye on everything. Yeah, I think we care about things together, and I think we do. I certainly do.
SPEAKER_02:I try to remain in my role as an objective and neutral reporter. Sometimes I just I can't. I'm a real person in the world, man. And and I hope you guys all know that. So thank you, Donna. Thank you, everyone uh that listens to it.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, thank you, Sam. It's been a pleasure. Um, I do want to also acknowledge that um, oh my goodness, I had a thought and it just left me. So, anyway, if I don't remember before we're done, I want to thank you. I want to thank Sarah for producing us. I want to thank Orlando for supporting us. I want to thank Connor for engineering us and um Jalen for recording us and putting us on Facebook. We have a great team. Um I'm really excited about what the new year is going to bring. Um, there are oh, this is what I wanted to say. I wanted to say that right now, Netflix has um, you know, offered to purchase um um HBO, Disney, that whole conglomerate, right? Did I get it right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Monopoly. They're trying to purchase uh what whatever it is.
Donna Givens Davidson:Yeah, that Monopoly. Warner Brothers. The Warner Brothers. And then Paramount comes in with a hostile bit to go right to the shareholders and say, you know, we'll spend more per thing. But what we see is a consolidation of media. What we see is a silencing of voices that are independent because whenever you consolidate voices, that means you're shutting some out. There's never been a more important time for independent media like Detroit 1 million, and certainly like this podcast and other podcasts where we're giving it to you straight, unbought, unbossed, just doing it because we actually love the causes that we are um supporting. So Merry Christmas, um, happy Hanukkah. Happy new year, whatever you celebrate. I just really wanted to say once again thank you so much for listening to the Like Detroit Podcast. Be sure to like and trade the podcast and like one of the Like Independent Reporting on Detroit1Billion.com because of good journalism costs.
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