Building Just Communities with Dr. Yusef Bunchy Shakur and Joe Drew-Hundley

In this episode, Donna and Sam welcome Dr. Yusef Bunchy Shakur and Joe Drew-Hundley of the Michigan Roundtable for Just Communities to discuss their work eradicating racism, discrimination, and systemic inequities. 

Rooted in the profound legacy of his mama, Ava Jo—whose love, humor, and grit shaped him long before any degree—Dr. Yusef Bunchy Shakur carries her spirit in everything he does. Today, as the first Black and formerly incarcerated Executive Director of the Michigan Roundtable for Just Communities, Dr. Shakur brings that lived wisdom into building Just and Beloved Communities across Michigan. 

Joe Drew-Hundley is the Deputy Director of the Michigan Roundtable for Just Communities (MRJC). Joe’s relationship with MRJC began as a member of the Board of Directors, where he helped guide governance and strategy. Now, stepping into the Deputy Director role, he is focused on strengthening community partnerships, advancing MRJC’s values, and supporting Dr. Shakur and the team in building just and beloved communities across Michigan.

For more information on the Michigan Roundtable for Just Communities and their work, click here. 

WHAT WE’RE READING FROM THE MI CHRONICLE:

DETROIT COUNCIL MEMBER: DATA CENTERS COULD GROW CITY'S GENERAL FUND

FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER JOE TATE WON'T SEEK REELECTION

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Up next, Authentically Detroit welcomes Dr. Youssef Bunchy Shakur and Joe Drew Hundley of the Michigan Roundtable to discuss how they are cultivating just and beloved communities, neighborhoods, and organizations. First, we're going to be talking about what we're reading this week from the Michigan Chronicle. A Detroit council member is not uh opposing, not advocating for, simply pointing out that data centers could grow the city's general fund. Uh, a man that likes to talk about data centers in a positive way. House speaker Joe Tate, former House Speaker Joe Tate, he was the first African-American House Speaker in the state of Michigan history. He announced today to me, uh, last week, rather, he would not seek re-election. Today, uh, people are asking who's going to replace him. There's a number of first-time candidates uh looking to do that. Michigan Democratic Party Black Caucus, that is an organization out of the state Democratic Party led by Keith Williams. They are endorsing Ellie Savitt for Michigan Attorney General. Uh, keep it locked. When you come back to authentically Detroit, you're gonna find out why.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

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SPEAKER_00 1:58

What's up, Detroit? Welcome to another episode of Authentically Detroit, broadcasting live from Detroit's East Side of the Stadim Iron Center, the East Side Community Network. I am Sam Robinson.

Donna Givens Davidson 2:07

And I'm Donna Givens Davidson.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Thank you all for listening in and supporting our efforts to build a platform of authentic voices for real people in the city of Detroit. We want you to like, rate, and subscribe to our podcasts on all platforms. As Women's History Month comes to a close, we have Dr. Yusef Bunchy Shakur and Joe Drew Hunley of the Michigan Roundtable for Just Communities with us to discuss their work eradicating racism, discrimination, and systemic inequities, in particular the silencing of black women. Yousf and Drew, welcome to Authentically Detroit. How are you guys today?

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Yeah, no, okay. Um, yeah, we want to take turns saying we're doing well. I'm I'm I'm doing great and I'm absolutely um excited, and it's a pleasure to be here with you all on your platform.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Man, I'm Fair for a Nerd. It's an honor and pleasure to be back here with you guys. Uh, first time with you, Sam. So I'm excited, heard a lot of great things about you, and what up, though?

Donna Givens Davidson 3:08

Yeah, you know, um, it's it's interesting to end Black History Month um having men talk about women's silencing, but I just always want to um honor Dr. Shakur, who has elevated his mother's voice and elevated his mother's legacy in ways that every mother wishes her son would do. And so I'm excited to talk to you about that and your research, all the good stuff that you're doing, um, because you know, we want to know that we are seen and recognized and respected. And I appreciate the work that some men do in making that happen.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Well, I appreciate you uplifting that. Actually, let's just jump it off with some fireworks. And that firework is when you think about the lynching, right? And the campaign that was centered around that, which was uh galvanized around black men, and we should have, but on the same token, we did not galvanized around black women who was raped. And I think, you know, the argument can be made that was much is just as vicious, if not more uh brutal than that, right? But it because of the nature of the patriarchal society that we live in, um, we we've continued to put black women in the in the back in the back burner. And if unfortunately, you know, we we've taken on the characteristics of the predominantly men of the society, which is white men, and how how this world is viewed through their lands. So we be so we began to view our own selves, our struggle, our household, and et cetera. And as a result of that, we silenced black women.

Donna Givens Davidson 4:37

Yeah. You know, when you speak about the rape of black women, nobody worked harder than Rosa Parks in trying to protect black women and fighting for our protection in the rural South. And yet that legacy has been buried for so long. And so um it's because I think the issue just was not considered as relevant. Um, and it's always been relevant. Um, her work was always outstanding, and I'm I appreciate you bringing that up in the context of Lynching because she also sometimes stood up for black men. Um, so it's always great to have that duality. Um, I can't wait to get to that part of our discussion.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Right now, we're gonna run down some of the week's top headlines from the city of Detroit. Donna, I know you have an opinion on data centers. The one that Louis Aguilar reported on that is planned is in District 4. Uh, we found that out thanks to some of Letitia Johnson's council members talking to the Detroit news reporter Lewis Aguilar. Uh, the story that I did was sort of different in the in the headline than uh some of my colleagues. Uh there was a moratorium that was announced, uh a proposal for an ordinance from Scott Benson. Uh Scott Benson is viewed as sort of the moderate Democrat pro-business council member. Uh, you know, he raised concerns himself, saying, you know, there is possibilities that we are going to get a data center or at least companies proposing to build data centers in Detroit. Let's ensure that if they do come here, they're coming here under some sort of uh guidelines so they're not poisoning our air, water, and dirt. Uh so Benson gets the positive headline, Detroit council member asks mayor's office for moratorium. When I say that sentence, Donna, how would you understand? Well, Siri Siri wants to know what why that would be.

Donna Givens Davidson 6:32

You know, I mean, um, Scott Benson is also the chair of the Detroit Green Task.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

He is, and so he's well aware of these concerns, these environmental concerns that people have against data centers. However, he told me that data centers could be a way to grow the city's general fund, could be a great uh tool to uh you know raise our uh the amount of property tax revenue that the city is generating currently. And as we know, Donna, uh, you know, how does the city of Detroit raise a lot of its money is through the casinos? He said, uh, you know, we need to increase the general fund, and this is a way to do it. And so it's interesting. I decided to frame the story as Scott Benson is saying that instead of Scott Benson is raising these concerns about the data centers. He did do that in my conversation with him, but it is interesting uh, you know, the the framing uh around this headline, and now, of course, thanks to Lewis Aguilar's reporting at the Detroit News, we know that there are. Um, Scott told me that you know, by the end of the year, we could see uh data center being being constructed. It does seem like these companies are focusing in on southeast Michigan, uh, but specifically the city of Detroit, and specifically southeast Detroit.

Donna Givens Davidson 7:47

You know, one thing about balancing the budget is poisoning black people has always been profitable. Um, I want to point out that 40 years ago, um, Mayor Coleman Young brought forth an idea and began planning for another um opportunity to poison black folks, and that was the development of the largest incinerator in the United States on the east side of Detroit, also in District 4, although it wasn't District 4 at that time. Um, it was supposed to, we were supposed to be um creating renewable power by burning everybody's trash. And um that renewable power that sold to Detroit industry would be produced a revenue stream. And it's safe to say it did not. And after a few years, um, when it did not produce the you know desired returns, um, the incinerator was sold to Philip Morris. And if you're old enough to remember who Philip Morris is, y'all know who Philip Morris is, right? No, okay, the big tobacco company. So I said, well, they can get our lungs one way or another. Um, it was sold to Philip Morris. I think we have to stop thinking that we can just do things in the short run to develop opportunities. If these profitable businesses made that much sense, they would not be trying to put them in places like the one that they're trying to put this one in. They're trying to put it in a place in a corner of the east side where there's not a lot of resistance, where there's not a lot of profit, and where people are so hungry for redevelopment, they might not care about the long-term results. But we know in looking at sister cities across the US where black folks are living, that there are consequences that our lungs and our bodies are bearing for these investments. And so um, my understanding is that it's a two-year moratorium, and that that's what he's asking the mayor to impose. And I agree with a desire to stop and say, why do they want to put it here? What's the value of coming to our neck of the woods? Um, there are so many things that we could do to produce sustainable wealth or sustainable well-being, because I'm not all about wealth building, but sustainable well-being, and I really want to lean more into that than these short-term solutions that always sound a lot better than they are in the long run. Yeah, I don't know if either of you have a thought about that. I know that um some folks like me have thoughts about damn near everything. So if you have a thought, please join in right now.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Um I have a thought. Um, I'm I'm curious of the the double doubledness of um Scott Mensen, which I'm not surprised. Uh and it's isn't it's it's in those politics that really um Native Detroiters are continuing to be left behind. Uh no, if you're if you're forward, just say you're forward, and then we can have a constructive discussion about that. The pros and cons, but the kind of um put on your your snake snake clothes and and slime your way through it, and it ultimately know that's for the corporations and not for the the citizens. And that's why I find find it troubly uh very troubling.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Yeah, I I mean he talked to me about the pros and the cons. He said proactive regulation is what he is attempting to be the result of this ordinance. He told me we have to grow our general fund data centers, could do that. It is very interesting how uh, you know, a lot of what you'll hear from even our most um um the conservative Republicans that have taken the side of the rural community members that perhaps they represent, you know, you hear somebody like Matt Hall or John James be more oppositional in rhetoric, but when it comes down to it, will they actually oppose it? And I wonder if that's sort of similar to what we're seeing play out uh out of the uh council member in Detroit.

Donna Givens Davidson 11:28

And that that's what I appreciate about you, Sam, is that you get the story nobody else got. Everybody else is reporting things. And I said, Well, maybe he did take a green turn, and then you bring the truth on like darn. Um we need to know. Um, we really do need to know. I think that you know, one of the things is nobody ever proposes to poison your community. When the incinerator was installed, they said, look, there's this new technology, and it's going to be like unlike any other technology that when you burn trash here, it's not gonna poison people. And in fact, instead, it was, you know, exceeding the very generous, you know, pollution guidelines um that the state has set for like 275 days a year. And so um the reality was very different. I remember when Stellantis was planting the new plant and they had this new technology that was going to be, you know, protect the air quality. They had never been used before, and it was really exciting. And after multiple air quality violations, they that's when we found out they had not even bothered to install that new technology, which by the way, once they installed it, they're still poisoning our air. And so I think that um for those of us who are concerned about already the concentration of pollutants in the community around here, um, we have the highest, some of the highest asthma rates in the state, some of the highest asthma hospitalization rates of the state. We can't afford to get this wrong. Um, and then when you start talking about growing the economy, the first thing we do is give tax incentives, and the next thing we do is talk about jobs. And we know the data centers are not going to produce that many jobs because they are actually replacing jobs with data centers. And so I think that taking a hard long look, and so one of the things that Eastide Community Network is planning on doing is establishing a study group so that we can study in parallel based on our own observations and based on real science and not what corporations try to sell us as science, what the likely impact is, and we can decide how and when we're going to stand up against something like this. Um, and I'm saying that we're all we're all using data to some extent, but it doesn't have to come to the east side of Detroit. And we should be evaluating what the long-term impact is. And the last thing I want to say about that is a lot of people are also writing right now about a tech bubble, that this idea that AI is all this money that's being invested in AI is going to come falling to the earth because technology is not going to produce the desired results. Um, I want to remind people that when all those battery plants are built all over the state of Michigan, um, creating, you know, renewable energy, because that was a thing under um President Biden, former President Biden, and that money was taken away, those battery plants are still there. And whatever toxins were released around those plants is still there. When people, when corporations pollute and they go bust, the pollution remains after they leave. And so we can't afford to get it wrong, or at least to sit back and watch them get it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

That is the uh uh sort of what I'm hearing from community members that I ask. Um, you're not going to be. It's not gonna be easy to find somebody that's going to be overwhelmingly pro data centers. Um, talking to Joe last week, again, you know, heard the Joe Tate, heard the um pros of why you would want a business like that in your community. And yeah, they they all have to do with the fact that uh there's a feeling that Detroit is in sort of a precarious financial position, which I'm interested to hear how much that really revs up like the idea that our ARPA money is all locked in stone, and eventually in the next 18 to 24 months, we're going to be without any of those remaining dollars if they haven't already been um earmarked and allocated.

Donna Givens Davidson 15:21

So there's so many things we can do. We can dismantle the downtown development authority, we can stop giving tax breaks to billionaires, we can do so many things, or we can just throw out a data center. The vulnerability of Detroit, the vulnerability of black people makes us ripe for economic exploitation across the board. And so I don't look at economic um fragility as a rationale for um pollution or for allowing our standards to be reduced. Um, it's the our economic fragility is not an accident, it's constructed by a racist society. Um we're we're in this state because of what folks have done to us, not because we don't know how to make money or we're not um, you know, we're not responsible with it. It's because of all of the predatory practices historically that have happened since we've been on these shores and even before then that have contributed to the state that we're in right now. And instead of reparations, what we're getting is well, we'll throw you a poisonous bone. And I say keep it.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah. Speaking of House Speaker Joe Tate, uh, he met up with me at Morningside Cafe last week to tell me that he would not be running for re-election. It's a story that we had already kind of known. Uh, when you talk to people on the streets, when you talk to these candidates, a lot of them that are running for this ninth house district seat say that they've already been made aware or had learned months prior that Joe was not going to be running again. Uh, I talked to a strategist out of Lansing by the name of Adrian Hemond. He runs grassroots Midwest. He told me that, Sam, these are not popular roles for a guy that's in the prime of his earning years. Joe is 45 years old. He tells me that Joe could go out and get a job for$250,000 tomorrow. Uh, why would you spend your time dealing with people like him? Adrian said about himself, uh, armchair quarterbacking, uh, your your job performance. Why would you deal with people like me, Sam Robinson, reporting on your job for$71,000?

Donna Givens Davidson 17:30

Um, I mean, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Joe Tate told me uh that you know he was proud of his tenure as Michigan's first Black House speaker. Uh under his leadership, Democrats expanded Michigan's earned income tax credit, repealed Michigan's right to work law and pension tax, enacted safe gun storage and red flag laws, repealed the state's still on the books abortion ban, and ended the practice of holding back third graders who failed a reading proficiency test. Uh, however, they did not do everything. And there are many people across the state and in Detroit that are going to remember Joe's tenure uh from the final days of the Democratic-controlled state legislature in 2024 that was sort of dubbed the the lame duck debacle uh that saw Matt Hall leading Republicans and one Democrat out of the chamber, resulting in Democrats' inability to sign uh and pass legislation to pass for the governor to sign legislation that was expected to be passed and signed, like water affordability uh and other issues, police accountability, voting rights measures, government transparency measures weren't even brought to the floor bills to allow uh uh undocumented migrants uh an ID.

Donna Givens Davidson 18:53

Yeah, I mean, I think that you have to look at the whole of somebody's tenure as the house chair of the house, not the last couple days. And every single issue that didn't get passed was an issue when he was elected. Whether every single water affordability has been an issue. So, no, in the 11th hour, it didn't pass, but we had the first hour and the second hour and all of that in between. And it also was not advocated for. I didn't, I think a lot of us who are on the progressive side of politics or on the radical side of politics were disappointed with a lot of things that didn't make it to the table. And um, and the other thing is, you know, maybe he can't get that$200,000 a year job, you know, maybe maybe that is the pathway, run for office and don't do a whole lot of things that make rich people mad and they'll give you a good job. But I also think that um he also lost some political um viability in his tenure. And I think that to a certain extent, he's less popular than um he would want to pretend. Um, so I think it's a good thing he's not running again, go on and do other things, but hopefully somebody who is running with a desire to make real change on behalf of you know, detraitors and black folks will make a difference to have the first black speaker of the house be unavailable to a black person like me who actually he called on when he was running for office for advice, but I couldn't get a sit-down. Okay. So um, you know, I think that there is a distancing of himself from other black folks. And I'm not the only one who thought that I was in a um at a black, you know, networking event, and he was surrounded by white men, and I could not even get close to him. He was so busy holding court. Um, and that's not what we expect from our elected officials, it's not what I expect. I expect to be seen and heard. You want to talk about silencing black women? How about that? I was good for you when you were looking for ideas, when you wanted support, but when you got into that office, I was no longer visible. Now, I would have supported all of those things being passed in the 11th hour because they were still politically viable, but he's responsible for how he managed his role and possibly responsible for the loss of confidence voters had in House members who are Democrats. What are your thoughts, Yusuf? Um, I just want to get some other thoughts. And and Joe, what do you thought?

SPEAKER_01 21:12

I defer to Joe.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

I mean, I mean, yeah, no, I'm not gonna pretend that this is my area of expertise, so I appreciate your deference, but uh, you go for it. Good doctor.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Uh yeah, I'm not too much familiar with him, but uh, I mean, I looked him up while y'all was talking about him, and his picture tells me enough.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

So, I mean, a part of the story, part of Joe's story.

Donna Givens Davidson 21:39

I wouldn't understand how the picture tells him enough.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Oh, I mean, you can just look at his stance, uh how how he appears, you know, he's on on the other side of the aisle. You know, you can look at a certain person and the character just tell you like they're they're not who they say they are.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

All right. So Joe took on a lot of Criticism from progressives for accepting uh money from uh DTE and different special interest corporate groups. Um, he took on a lot of criticism from even some in his own caucus at the tail end of the Democrats' control for the first time in 60 years. They were in control of the state senate, the state house with the governor as well. And a lot of people feel like they did not, under uh Speaker Tate's leadership, do enough. There were uh black lawmakers, legislators elected, and non at KMAC at the city county building uh that last few weeks of the Democratic-controlled uh House. Democrats still control the state senate. Of course, Governor Whitmer is still our governor until January of next year. However, there's a lot of a lot of Democrats are are frankly upset that more was not done. They look at places like Minnesota and say that's a more progressive state. They look at places like New York or California, of course, which we know is more progressive than that.

Donna Givens Davidson 23:17

When my friend Keith Ellison ran for Congress the first time, he said you should run for Congress in Detroit. I said, Nobody will vote for me. I'm too radical for the city. And Detroit has actually become a lot more progressive than it was. The state has, it's a blue-collar state, blue-collar mentality. We need we have a lot of change. I think the Democratic Party also needs to change. I think the Democratic Party, if the Democratic Party wants to be relevant and wants to really fight back, you got to stand for something. You don't stand for something, you fall for anything. Um, we're not looking for Republican light. We're looking for people who are actually trying to solve the problems of people in this state. And until people run for office and are saying things like water affordability is not optional. Housing for all people is not optional, environmental protections are not optional. Um, energy affordability is not optional. In fact, we're gonna fight for these things, we're gonna fight for you. Then we're gonna keep on having people stay home from the polls, disconnect from politics, decide politics is not the way I'm gonna try to get things done. And so I think that's what we're seeing right now. I think that um beating people over the head and saying it's your fault that you didn't vote. Um, I look at politics as like this is a sales job. If I'm trying to sell you a vote and you aren't buying, it's not because you don't, you know, you you you need to do a better job. I need to do a better job selling what I'm offering to you. And we're not seeing that by a lot of people in the party. We're just more of the same and more of the same, and then we beat up the people who don't vote.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, one thing I want to say is, you know, uh to counter your points. Uh, you know, he did he did come to me to to do his I'm leaving the legislature story. So he did he ran away from a black woman, you, but he he ran to me. I will say that when he became speaker, it did become more difficult to reach him.

Donna Givens Davidson 25:03

Yeah, I mean he came to you at the end of a a period when he has lost the level of relevance. If he was in his high, I doubt you he'd be talking to Cranes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Well, he probably would be talking to Dave Eggert. However, it's interesting to me that Joe or uh Dr. Yousse, neither of you had heard of Joe. He run, he ran for Senate for U.S. Senate, you know, with Haley and Mallory and Abdul. And then he um uh that was that was after he had launched a mayoral campaign that had a announcement event planned, and then he pulled out uh I think the day before the event.

Donna Givens Davidson 25:39

Couldn't get anybody to support it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

And that was an interesting uh sort of chapter in his tenure at the tail end of you know what where is Joe gonna go after this? He did not tell me what he plans to do. This is you know the highest ranking member of the Michigan legislature that we've ever had uh as a black man from Detroit. Um, and so a lot of people, you know, he he will be remembered in sort of the legislative history books in Lansing when we think about uh African Americans in in Lansing representing uh Detroit or urban communities. Um we're going to be um talking a little bit more about some of those other rural communities across the state and where black people are in it. Um but in Detroit, not a lot of people not a lot of people know about uh Joe Tate's career or the fact that he is the first black House speaker. I think that title has actually a little bit more weight in Lansing than it does in Detroit.

Donna Givens Davidson 26:44

I think people know who he is in a lot of instances. I think that some people have chosen to disconnect from a lot of these politics because they don't see them as being very relevant to the work that they're doing, unfortunately. I think that politics and Lansing have become, but I think the problem is that when you get excited about somebody being the first, then you want to see them deliver. And a lot of people are disappointed. I do want to make sure that we have a lot of time to really hear from our guest um because we got started a little bit late. Um, and I'm I'm interested to hear what you are working on and the ways that you are trying to make change. I have the benefit of knowing something about um you stuff, not really Joe, but I look forward to hearing from the two of you on your work and your perspectives.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Yeah, let's talk to you guys a little bit more. We're gonna take a quick break and then we're gonna come back and talk to you guys about the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

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SPEAKER_00 28:29

Rooted in the profound legacy of his mother, Ava Joe, whose love, humor, and gif grit, excuse me, shaped him long before any degree, Dr. Yusuf Bunchy Shakur carries her spirit in everything he does. Born and raised in Detroit, he lived in the harshness of the streets, survived being incarcerated as a teenager for a crime he did not commit, and found purpose in healing the wounds that shaped him after meeting his father while in prison, a moment that sparked a lifelong path toward transformation and redemption. His journey isn't abstract, it's personal, lived, and still unfolding. Today, as the first black and formally incarcerated executive director of the Michigan Roundtable for Just Communities, Dr. Shakur brings that lived wisdom into building just and beloved communities across Michigan. His leadership was born on Detroit blocks, not in the boardrooms, and his commitment is rooted in the everyday fight to make the world safer for mothers, sons, families, and neighborhoods like the one he comes from. Now, Joe Drew Hundley is the deputy director of the Michigan Roundtable for Just Communities, where he brings over 20 years of leadership experience, a passion for facilitation, and a lifelong commitment to equity and justice. Joe's relationship with the Michigan Roundtable for Just Communities began as a member of the board of directors where he helped guide governance and strategy. Now, Joe, you are stepping into a deputy director role. You are focused on strengthening community partnerships, advancing your organization's values, and supporting Dr. Shakur and the team in building just and beloved communities across Michigan. Joe, you grew up in Metro Detroit, where you're exposed daily to both the challenges and the resilience of under-resourced neighborhoods that have been divested from. That experience shaped your personal perspective and continues to fuel a belief that strong communities are built when people are given the tools, resources, and opportunities to lead their own change. I want to start it with you, Joe. Uh, as Donna mentioned, uh, you know, younger, and she doesn't know as much about you. I'm just learning about you now through your Instagram. Um, talk to me about how you got involved in this work and take me back to you know that time. Maybe it was as a teenager, maybe it was, you know, in your 20s when you decided, okay, I'm I'm gonna give my life to the benefit of other people.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Thank you. Great, great question, great setup there. I love how you pointed out younger of the two, between myself and Dr. Shakur. Um, so yeah, no, it's it's been a it's been a hell of a journey for me. Um, as you read in the bio. Um most majority of my career path has been in the corporate space, but I um, as part of that, been a DEI practitioner. Um, so throughout my career, I've been challenged to change my way of thinking to advocate more than you know, be on the side of the organizations and learn about communities that I didn't necessarily belong to, um, but that I um had strong allegiance for, wanted to be an ally, wanted to be able to support, but it came with learning and understanding their journey. And that was uh something that was important to me because I didn't always feel like my journey was understood when I whenever I was trying to make those next steps throughout my life and career. Um, as you mentioned, I am a native Detroiter. Interestingly enough, where my story kind of starts is my parents moved us to Farmington Hills when I was um in middle school. Um, and so, you know, of course, some of the time, sometimes that story means that you are now disconnected from you know where you grew up from the city. And that was the complete opposite for the way my parents operated. Um only our address changed, but everything else that we did, you know, our school changed, but everything else we did was in the city. And um it was an opportunity for us to um you know show show others that you know there there were there that those who left weren't always just leaving and turning their back on you know the where their roots and where they came from. They needed a bigger house, they had big, large children, and they made their conscious decision to move out, but they wanted to keep us rooted in where we came from. We we went to church, we we served, we we volunteered everything in the city so that we can uh me and my brothers could remain focused on uh this is who you are, and these are your people, and these are who you need to support as you continue to grow up and become a man of your own.

Donna Givens Davidson 32:54

I have I have questions about that. You went to Harrison?

SPEAKER_02 32:56

I went to Farmerton Harrison, yes.

Donna Givens Davidson 32:58

Okay, so I um I um as my children had friends who were at Harrison, and I had um friends whose children were at Harrison, and so I know something about the school, and I know that um a lot of people move to the suburbs thinking they're gonna move up and out, uh out and up. And uh Harrison brought its own level of oppression of black students, didn't it?

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Oh, yeah. No, it um I mean to be one of I graduated in 2000, so you know, going back and so to be one of just a few, um, majority athletes, um, you know, one of those oppressive systems where that, you know, Harrison was very big in uh providing families of with athletic kids' finances to be able to go to school out there, um, you know, small apartments and things of that nature, whereas, you know, students who couldn't run a touchdown, you know, that there was no connection to them and their family to potentially provide you know those opportunities to go to what I question was a better school. I mean, I felt like I got a decent education, but I don't know that it was that much better than my peers in in Detroit public schools, but that was definitely the thought process there. But yeah, I absolutely first time I saw race fights were was at the prestigious farms in Harrison, right?

Donna Givens Davidson 34:12

I always like for people to understand that the overrepresentation of black students and students who are suspended and expelled, the overrepresentation of black students in remedial coursework and in alternative educational environments, and the underrepresentation in honors classes is the story we're not telling about moving out to the suburbs, right? So that you have students who are leaving the suburbs and learning their inferiority there. And your parents did the right thing in keeping you connected, and you're a little bit older than uh my kids. And so when they were there, there was certainly a larger representation and it became more threatening. You know, there's a 10% rule, a 20% rule, when you get to be over a certain number, now we have to have systems to keep you from really infiltrating our environments. And so you probably are pre-10%, but I think it's important for people to understand that moving out does not always mean moving up and that there can be strength inside of our own people.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yeah, that's a great point. And my parents never let us think that. And that was something I always appreciate. Just because we we did our we moved across the eight mile and barrier, and we're now, you know, out here doesn't mean you're better than anyone. And and quite frankly, you know, it's incumbent upon us to ensure that we keep ourselves rooted into you know where we came from. They both worked in the city of Detroit and they they both um throughout their whole lives, you know, committed to community work in Detroit, you know.

Donna Givens Davidson 35:33

Shout out to Hunleys. Now, um Yusuf, you grew up in a kind of different environment, right? Zone eight. Yeah, and um zone eight shaped you differently. Can you talk about the differences and also the role that your mother played in helping you navigate those differences?

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Uh, sure. Thanks for that question before I ask you. Actually, uh Joe's family is is is adjacent. Um, grew up, grew up not too far before they moved to the east side and asked me to to farmers in hills. So we we we make that little joke now. Uh my grandfather bought our house in 1952. Um, on Ferry Park, you know, different a different dynamic of what we see today. And my my mother was his own only child, and she was the last of her of my grandmother. So and so my grandmother had eight children. So my mother grew up grew up differently as as the landscape changed, and she found herself about the age 24. Three children by three different men, um, have to raise us, and it's the climate of uh crack cocaine comes to the comes to the uh forefront. Uh, you have the um the murdering of black children that that's just skyrocketing. Uh, you know, my mother makes one of the most difficult decisions, which is to make me uh war the state at the age of 15 because of the the lurking of possibly getting killed or going to prison, you know, me getting heavily involved in the streets just just because it was just there. And and you know, growing up, you you know, you don't value women, particularly black women in that sense, because you know, you not not overstand like this this patriarchy dynamic that's shaping how you view them. Um, like one example, you know, my mother could I was like, hey, I want to go live with my daddy, or I won't wish my daddy was here, you know, because he would piss me off. And and not realizing, like my daddy, you know, even if he could, he hadn't. He had never paid a bill. He had never bought me a pair of shoes. Again, not to say he didn't love me, but practically it there was no comparison. But the person who did and who sacrificed, who shaped me, um, I I didn't value at that moment. But on another, on another hand, I did value because it was it was just something about as a child growing up with a you know, single mother, uh having three different five children, men by uh fathers with men who wasn't present. So it always spoke to me. I just didn't comprehend it. But then, you know, later in my life, uh, everything I went through, my mother was always there. Um, even when she was being crucified for my actions, but not realizing like she was being crucified because you know she was, she was labored as a warfare queen and things of that nature to continue to attack black women and realizing the things that I I had suffered from was in conjunction what she was suffering from. In reality, I I came in the world um experiencing black oppression, not because of my the absence of my father, but because that because of sexism and misogyny that that was um posed upon my mother's body that also means which would later on go on to stigmatize me. Um I think for me the greatest accomplishment I ever made in my life was making my mother proud before she before she passed.

Donna Givens Davidson 38:46

Wow, that's that's compelling. That is really compelling. So, how does all of that shape your work at the Michigan round table? I mean, it used to be, I remember when it was the Michigan round table, Christians and Jews, right? And now um it is completely reshaped into something different. Can you talk about how it's grown in the work right now?

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Sure, thank you for the question. I just started here and turned over to Joe. Um I I took on the role of executive director in September. I was every leader wants to have a vision, reflect their values along with the values of the organization. So I centered us around in four anchors, building community power, uh, dismounting stigmas, and building pathways, which is one that's very important in me. I'm looking at my lived experience. Uh, youth leadership and self-determination has always been who we are and cooperations, community, uh cooperation with community, um, but transforming our work for me and charity around justice. And no Joe could get a little more deeper into. Uh, I think like he he takes pride in where the ability to talk about the work. Um, because he he's his hands are all over it right now.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Yeah, no, thank you, good doctor. And um, to so the live, you talked about how does the live experiences shape the work that we're doing. And so he he took the role of September one, his first and arguably the best decision he made as a director was hiring a deputy director, um, which you know, insert insert myself. Um, but yeah, we you know, one of the things that I appreciated is that first thing was let's anchor our work because the work was all over the place. As you mentioned, there was some interfaith, there was DEI lingering as the Michigan Roundtable Diversity and Inclusion, and now we're the just communities. What does that mean? Um, and so you know, dismantling stigmas, building pathways for one. That's really focused on single mothers, single black mothers, um what do you call it, uh, formerly incarcerated or you know, justice-impacted people. These are these are uh groups of people that come from lived experiences from our executive director, from those who are uh help shape the roundtable, and now um is a bucket of work that we are centering our program and that we're going after grant funding for that. Um we we are ensuring that you know, if we're gonna be known for anything, it's gonna be to support these groups of people who have the stigmas around them that they don't necessarily deserve. And with those stigmas come the lack of resources. Um with those stigmas coming come multiple hoops to jump through to get the things that you just damn deserve. Like forget um, you know, the the the nice to have. These are just the the human right type of things that everybody deserves to have when it comes to um those who are raising their children um on their own without the extra parent or those who um either made a mistake or didn't make a mistake and got caught up in the justice system and now um are trying to make a good life for themselves and it is not made being made easy for them. So um that particular anchor is very, very much informed by what we see around us, by uh Dr. Shakur's experience, by the experiences that we've all had and seen um throughout our communities and and um building community power, our our our communities don't have the power that they deserve. And that's something that we we are taken on as an important um aspect of our work and so on and so forth. So um like like Dr. Shakur said, it's it's uh I could talk about it for days and I won't monopolize the time with it, but the main thing that I want to share with anyone is that um those particular anchors, if you look at the round table today, it it feels a little different than it has in the past. You have two Detroit-born leaders, two black men, the first black men to ever be leaders in this 85-year history. We're gonna make it feel like something that's important to us. So when I go to sleep at night, I feel good about the work I've done. I've I've been at corporate, I've had a higher earning potential. Uh, but I didn't have the peace of mind to know that I was making a true impact. I got two sons. I want them to know that you can do more than just chase the money and the the riches that may not be always tangible will follow. And that's something that I've been able to really uh feel good about throughout this experience. And it kind of triggered that thought in my mind when you're talking about the brother Tate and like staying in a 70,000 job as opposed to going and making a quarter million somewhere. Um, you know, I think I've had that experience. I'm like, but what'd your conscience feel like? You know, as that as that check go up, what's your conscience feel like um every day, you know, the work that you're doing compared to something maybe a little more modest, but it cleanses the soul. So that's how I figured it out.

Donna Givens Davidson 43:19

So and people get to be my age, you know, and that it starts to show up, right? Now you have this bitter, angry older man because he has not lived his truth. You have a lot of brokenness, you have early heart attacks, you have a lot of things that are happening to people who make that sacrifice. Um, people talk about generational wealth. I talk about generational well being because well being is what our ancestors want us to see. Um, and in it that whole wealth trap and this black capitalism is a freaking trap that that's not what we were made for. That's not how our communities have thrived. Um, one thing I want to honor you for is that you're working on a just communities. I am so tired of equity. I'm so tired of equity. We've all seen the meme, you know, equality, equity, justice. And we know justice is the preferred state, but everybody stops with equity. And you guys are going all the way to the right, doing the right thing. How did you arrive at just communities and at pushing past the whole negative equity trap?

SPEAKER_01 44:20

When you look at the history of the Michigan Roundtable, I mean, that's pretty much our DNA. And I love to just quote um Brian Byron Stevenson where he says the opposite of poverty is not wealth. The opposite of poverty is justice. And fundamentally, um, when you ask the question to any any person, Detroit, wherever, do you live in a just society? And we're going to get different answers. But the reality is, there's those of us who do who do not live in a just society. And that tells us that we have a lot of work to do. And if we can get to justice, then we get to the opportunity to improve our society where democracy truly lives at the forefront of every human being.

Donna Givens Davidson 44:55

Because you know, you can't talk about mass incarceration and equity in one breadth, right? You got to talk about justice. There are certain problems that cannot be solved with equity. Justice is the only thing. And um, so I'm really, really excited about that. Um, Joe, you were brought on to build partnerships. Who are you partnering with? And how do you um organizations like East Side Community Network become partners with the Michigan Roundtable?

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Yeah, no, that's a great question. Um, so yeah, no, and and we're we're a very small lean staff, and so you know, this is a slowly but surely kind of built rebuilding what those partnerships look like. So um from a from corporations, you know, starting with our board of directors, um, there they are a diverse group of leaders throughout different corporations. So we partnered with them to ensure that um with their financial gifts, uh, we're able to then in turn you know find ways to support some of the community endeavors that are important to those particular corporations. That's where the anchor corporations for community um comes from. But then on the on the other side, on the from the community standpoint, we're the round table, right? And in my mind, when I hear round table, it it's not a it's not a rectangle table, where it's a head of the table. All of us have equal seating around this table. We're able to look each other eye to eye and be able to talk through how we can um you know create change, how we can lean into whatever we're that's important to us. So um we we so one of the best examples that we have of a partners there is this um there's a program called Liberator Zones that Dr. Shakur is um very, very, very much kind of leading. And so you have community houses from across the city, across Southeast Michigan that are coming together, um where it's focused on justice and being able to pull their ideas and be able to go after resources together, because you know their strength in numbers to be able to create things that support our community. So you got organizations like the shed, um organizations like um feed them freedom, organizations like um, and Dr. Don't let don't let me just sit here and draw blanks. Um and throw throw the general bank institute. The Burrwood House. Yeah, there you go. So those are just just to name a few, but um that's one of our one that we're really excited about because we have the opportunity to come together, as I mentioned, and and be able to um create this liberation and and this this focus on justice that supports the people that are living right around those particular community homes. And I didn't even mention the historic Mama Akua community house, um, which is has a partnership with the Michigan Roundtable. And we do a lot of our programming right there in zone eight, right out of the Mama Cool community house. So that's kind of the the first example of being able to have that strong partnership and then expand it out to be able to provide resources to those who lean on that partnership. And then to your question, you you could you you're already a partner. Having us on your platform makes us a partner, but the the next step is in being able to sit down, get the cameras off, and figuring out what steps can we and should we take together in order to enhance one another's vision and mission. Um, and and that's something that that reciprocal relationship is something that's extremely important to me. I don't go in anywhere saying, what can you do for me without in turn saying, you know, what support can we provide to enhance whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish within your organization.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

And I'll add real quick to Joe's point. Um also, you know, we center ourselves trying to find like value organizations versus like like-minded. I think the like-minded is um, there's a lot of gaps in there because you can like me today and not like my black ass tomorrow. Uh, but value is Trump, Trump-like, right? And we see uh like people what we're against versus what we're for. And I think um East Side Community Network is for a lot of great things, and there's an idea, concept you've kind of been talking about on your your end, Donna, that I would love to us to um find synergy is introducing uh this this Detroit Justice League, and it's really building off of the um the big the big four, so to speak. And not because you've been around long enough. How do we get get our org orgs to penetrate the round table in around 85 years, the NAACP 100 years, the urban league, right? But there's not enough space that for the grassroots, the authentic organization to really emerge. And so being creating this space, again, we don't all have to like each other, but and Detroit is so big, there's there's not one organization can carry all this work. And the ability that we can come together and work together around some common things, the greater impact that we can have. Um, we just had this great historical election of Mary Sheffield, and we're seeing that's ushering a new leadership, but also from a community standpoint, where's that leadership on our end? Yeah, which is already there, but also on that same timeline of also being able to hold her accountable, hold her administration accountable along with the Joe Tayson, et cetera, because we're when when they're gone, we're still gonna be here. And that's important that we have to build build those tangible relationships to have that impact. So that's an idea that we have. And that's like I said, similar to something that you've already been working on. So I love for us to find time to uh figure how to pull those things together.

Donna Givens Davidson 50:02

Yeah, that's that's exciting to me. At a time like this, where people are really worried about what's happening in our nation to black folks, in our city to black folks, this is a time for us to come together and sort of break bread and figure out how we can strengthen each other. Um, and so I I do honor um what you've done. I think that you have been willing to speak out, um, Dr. Shakur, um, and call a spade a spade and not, you know, go with the flow. And I think it's important always to honor and to hold up people who are willing to um, you know, take a risk because sometimes it's easy to just go along and say the right thing and you know just get along because it's the right time. Um, we absolutely have to hold our elected officials accountable. These are not our friends, these are people who work for us, even if we like them, right? And um, the other thing I think is that, you know, we this is not a social club, right? It's not about, oh, I like this person, I don't like that person. It is about these are the problems we're trying to jointly solve together. And so I really look forward to having those conversations. I've been hearing from other people where really um we're at this time of a great awakening where we understand government is not gonna solve it, you know, period. Um, so we we have work to do.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

We certainly do. I want to ask you guys um if you have before we get out of here, uh, a couple people that are important to you. Some weeks it's our cat, some weeks it's our mother. But every week we do a uh to send us off uh a weekly shout-outs. And so when we come back at the top half of our show, uh just in one moment, uh, we're gonna go around me and Donna. We'll shout somebody out. If you guys have people that you want to shout out, um think about them now.

SPEAKER_03 51:59

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SPEAKER_00 52:39

Welcome back, everyone. We're here with Dr. Youssef Bunchy Shakur and Joe Drew Humley of the Michigan Roundtable for Just Communities. We want to thank you for listening in to Authentically Detroit. If you guys have topics or guests that you want us to talk to, you want to see discussed on our program, please do hit us up on our socials at Authentically Detroit on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, or you can visit us on our website at authentically-detroit.com. All right, it is now time for our weekly shout-outs. Let's start with you, Donna. You want to shout anybody out?

Donna Givens Davidson 53:15

I do. I want to shout Dr. Deanna Stewart from the Equity Alliance of Michigan, um, who opened who hosted an event on Saturday. It was an absolutely beautiful event. Um, we had ballet service and the um coat check, and it was called real, really just service for women, honoring women and really having some amazing speakers come up on a panel and charge us up and build those bonds with each other. I went in there feeling kind of good and I walked out there out of that event almost floating. I really appreciate women who pour into other women, and we had a great day. There's an amazing caterer there, great time. So um, shout out to you, Dr. Deanna Stewart.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

I want to shout out all the people that sent me this morning. Uh the that Abdul was asking when he was going to get a profile written by me as part of a leak to the free beacon. Abdul al-Sayed, he's a Senate candidate running for uh the U.S. Senate from Michigan. Uh name dropped me in a leaked audio, in which the uh framing of the story was that he was talking about some uh the the Iranian Ayatollah saying, telling his staff that he didn't feel like a statement was was necessary as part of that eight-minute leaked audio. Who's leaking? Or is it some spyware firm that's somehow obtaining the leaks from Abdul Al-Say's Senate campaign? Uh, there was just a it was a funny quib from his staffer who who told uh Abdul that Sam Robinson is the only Detroit reporter. Very untrue. However, I am the only Sam Robinson and the only place that you're gonna get some of those uh DC. I'm I'm yelling at the DC people. They're they're arguing over a Twitch streamer right now. Um, everybody in DC, chill out. There's five months until this August primary in the U.S. Senate race uh for Michigan. Chill out, please come here. You can even come to my house. You can go downtown, you can meet me at Campus Martius. If you are a DC reporter, I guess I'm changing the shout-out to all the DC reporters. Please come down here and talk to actual residents of Detroit. Nobody is talking about what you guys are spilling ink over now for like weeks on end. They're talking about these. Oh, do are people gonna care about this ridiculously niche thing that nobody even is aware of? No, please come to Detroit and and talk to people about the U.S. Senate race if you're reporting on it. Come to Lansing, come to the west side of the state or up north.

Donna Givens Davidson 55:40

Come to ECN.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Come to ECN, come to the Stademeyer. We'll get you right.

Donna Givens Davidson 55:44

We can sit you in the studio, have a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Yeah, but shout out to everybody that sent me that this morning. Really funny. Um, yeah, Donna. Yeah.

Donna Givens Davidson 55:54

All right. So um, who do you want to shout out? Um, I know there's got to be somebody you're gonna lift up today.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

I'll go first, man. First, I'll give you guys a shout-out for having us on here. Um, actually, it's our one of our first uh interviews that we've done together um up under our leadership. So we appreciate that. And give a shout-out to my staff, man, for their belief for me, my board members who support me and and everybody else. Uh, you know, being black and a black executive director is no easy task in the nonprofit space, the nonprofit industrial complex. Um, and you know, and particularly me uh coming from community to this to this space. Um I know a lot of folks is worried, concerned, right? Man, this is gonna change up. And it's a hard, it's hard, not in terms of changing up, but just being your authentic self. So thank you for recognizing that, Donna, because uh it definitely comes at a price, and you know, change requires to make and sacrifice.

Donna Givens Davidson 56:50

And we have to protect those people who are willing to be truth tellers and stand up for them when they're not in the room, Joe.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

That's yeah, no, thank you. And I I was gonna, if you didn't shop me out, I was gonna have something to say, Dr. Shakur. So thank you for that. Um, you know, I think, of course, I was gonna go with the easy obvious of you know, my mom, my wife, my uh, but I think there's two particular people who come to mind uh in the city. One of the things when people ask you, like, what can I do for you? What can I do for you? My my answer, because I uh relocated back to Detroit, I didn't spend most of my adult life here, um, is help me build my network. Um, that's something that I I I really need to continue to grow, especially in this type of role. Um, and there's two people who have gone over and beyond the call of duty to put me in spaces and places that allow me to thrive and grow in this role. Um, so shout out to Kari Frazier um from Detroit is different. I gotta give that brother a shout out because he's always, you know, he just called me last week, like, oh, you know, you know about this event, or you know, and that's not something he has to do, he's not obligated, but he does it anyway, um, just because that's what I asked for. Um yeah, yeah, no, he's a great brother, so I appreciate him. And then the other is Shiara Clayton um from Detroit Rescue Missions Ministry. Um, I just recently met her, just through Dr. Shakur, and she took, she acted like I was her brother from day one. Um, put me in put me, introduced me to spaces that I wasn't aware of, um, got some programming stuff to um that uh opportunities for us to to take some of our program into their organization. And she was just sitting heavy on my mind because um we recently had a chance to to hang out with her, so I wanted to make sure that she gets the flower she deserved for taking me on like a little brother, even though you know I met her one time at that point, and she was already blasting our information out to other people.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

So shout out to you Joe Joe, do you remember that cold that we went through uh a few months back? It was a it was a terrible cold. It was like you know, five degrees for a week straight. I had met Miss Clayton just one time, like yourself. She was so great at getting me who I need to talk to and getting me information um from my role as a reporter, just trying to inform my community on where you could go. Shelters were opening up, and the city was actually um working with the rescue ministries to to you know provide more space for people. And they were doing it. Um, you know, they were sort of changing the the requirements of the threshold. Usually, you know, they want you to be a certain way, they were just come on in, and uh she was great. So, two people you just shouted out two people that I respect a lot, so that's a great we're a small uh community, man.

Donna Givens Davidson 59:21

Can I just also point out she can sing? What I didn't know that I didn't know. She arranged our Christmas event and blew it up, and then she was actually when I saw last time I saw um Dr. Shakura was at the um book conversation we had with um Anna Um Maleka Tubbs, and um she sang the national anthem. I'm telling black national anthem, I'm telling you, she put it down. So not only is she a beautiful spirit, but she can sing, she's got a beautiful sister in Stacy. Love her, love the family. Um, and of course, Yusuf. Um, yeah, so um, yeah, thank you so much. I know that Sam has got to get out of here.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

Um Yeah, we want to thank you guys for joining us, and we want to thank all of our listeners for also supporting our efforts. We are building a platform of real authentic voices for real authentic people in the city of Detroit, and we are uh unapologetic about that. If you want to like, rate, and subscribe to our podcast, we would also appreciate that. Thank you all for listening in. We will see you guys next week.