Amplify Outside Podcast: Welcome... To Detroit!

The Authentically Detroit Podcast Network Presents... Amplify Outside!

Welcome to the Amplify Outside podcast, a show with a mission of amplifying nuanced approaches to Intersectional Environmentalism centered in no other than Detroit, Michigan. 

For our first episode we meet host Ian John Solomon and speak with the City of Detroit’s Director of Sustainability Tepfirah Rushdan about what makes Detroit green.

Follow along on Socials @AmplifyOutside!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome and thank you for listening to the very first episode of Amplify Outside, a podcast that aims to position Detroit as the place to be and look to for intersectional environmentalism. We're talking with primarily black stewards, organizers, farmers, hikers, artists, and everything in between to amplify Detroit as a container for seemingly endless examples of what it means to be green. I'm your host, Ian John Solomon, and I'm so thankful to be speaking into this mic today. If you don't mind, before we get started with our first guest, who I am so honored to have, I'd like to take the opportunity to share how I found myself in this seat. Looking back, the seeds of environmentalism were planted across my adolescence. Politic found me before the outdoors. My freshman year of high school, we mourned and demanded an unmet justice for Trey Von Martin. And by my senior year, we were standing with Ferguson, Missouri in the wake of Michael Brown's murder, again with no justice to be seen. Living in those formative years alongside the beginnings of the Black Lives Matter movement centered me in social justice and politics, with a clear understanding of the life and death realities of being black in a place like America. This understanding led me to a broadcast journalism degree from the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism, and a short stint as a congressional reporter with Arizona PBS. It was 2018 and I was in the action. ICE detention camps, the Kavanaugh hearings, midterm elections. There was so much going on, it felt less about making an impact in the communities I cared about and more about just keeping up with the news. Of course, there was and continues to be far too much news. All to say, I learned that the path of politics wasn't quite right for me. Now in the background of this journey was another unfolding. I didn't grow up with the outdoors besides a couple school trips, but I always remembered being distinctly interested in the wild. As a kid, I even remember having dreams of being in unfamiliar woods, but I didn't feel lost, I just kind of felt there. In my junior year of high school, my family moved way out to an area of Metro Detroit with abundant lakes, forests, and densely tree-canopied streets. And we're gonna keep it real on this podcast. I, at the time, was grounded for enjoying some other green things Michigan similarly has to offer in abundance. All to say, I had nothing else to do but walk around these new woods. And wouldn't you know, I begin to love it almost immediately. I had never had the opportunity to connect to nature in that way, and maybe even more impactful, no one ever told me it was something I should look to connect to. If it wasn't for the chance to live in a space where the outdoors was at my front door, I probably wouldn't be speaking into this mic today. So, as much as I was enraged by the political happenings in those adolescent years, I was beginning to be inspired by this budding relationship to the outdoors. Sure, Walter Cronkite is a great journalism school, but it was also in Arizona where I knew I could hike to my heart's content year-round. After all, even with this new love affair with the outdoors, winter had not gotten a piece of my heart yet. While I had made the connection later, black American politics and outdoor access were guiding my life. It wasn't until I came back to Detroit in 2021, after some time reporting in DC and making art in Los Angeles that I began to see the political potential of the outdoors. Now, if you know me, you know that you can find me any and everywhere around the Great Lakes. Getting in the car and simply going has become second nature to me. But the reality is it's not so simple after all. That became clear to me after sharing all my outdoor adventuring on Twitter or Instagram, and without fail, my DMs would fill with, wow, I had no idea this was in Michigan, or how the hell did you even get there? The consistent flooding of curiosity inspired me to start a page, Amplify Outside, all about showcasing the amazing nature at our fingertips from the distinct perspective of a black Detroiter. The content went around surprisingly fast, which is a testament to just how excited people are to get outside. But was more unsuspecting was a lot of requests to host events like a group hike or a group camping trip, and that showed me people wanted the outdoors and community hand in hand. Now I am a journalist, so when thinking about how to best approach this thing that I didn't exactly mean to start, my first question was, where's the data? To help guide this endeavor, it turns out there wasn't much data at all. Besides some pretty broad stats from national outdoor industries, there wasn't much specific information on black communities and their relationship to outdoor recreation, especially localized to black Michiganders and Black Detroiters. So in 2022, Amplified Outside launched a survey for black Michiganders that gained hundreds of responses, providing insight to how Michigan's black citizens felt about the abundant nature around us. Two things were made clear. Narrative surrounding a lack of black interest in outdoor recreation isn't true. The vast majority of respondents were very interested in engaging with nature and wilderness in a deeper, more intentional way. But the barriers to these experiences stopped us in our tracks. Some of them are narrative barriers, aka, I didn't think this was for me, or I don't want to be the only one that looks like me out on the trail. But many of these barriers were all too real and material. Lack of transportation, expendable income or time, the threat of racial violence, all of these barriers have less to do with the land and more to do with the policies and politics that have been enacted on it. That shifted my focus just a little bit to expand my interest beyond just outdoor recreation and take a deeper look into the histories of urban environmental policy, like redlining or the rise and fall of industrialization that kept Detroiters and communities like Detroit from the experiences that the data showed we're absolutely looking for. The question really became: what are the politics of the outdoors? I'd like to zoom out from Detroit, both in place and time, for one of my favorite histories that really hits the nail on the head in terms of outdoor recreation's potential to bring complicated politics to the forefront. Let's rewind back to 1930's Jim Crow South, where the federal government is working to create the first ever national parks east of the Mississippi River. These parks would become the Great Smoky Mountain National Park, established in 1934, in Tennessee and North Carolina, and the Shenandoah National Park in Virginia, established in 1935. If you know anything about the 1930 South, you know it was segregated heavily under the southern state's rule of Jim Crow. See, Jim Crow created a tension for national parks. National parks in the South are federal land. Jim Crow is not a federal policy. The feds had to make a choice. Uphold state law on federal land or integrate these newly made national parks. I bet you can guess what the initial response was. Yep. Segregation. For years, these two national parks tried their best to adhere to the segregation of the South. And I say tried their best because, as you may be wondering, how do you possibly segregate wilderness? No black people past the pine tree actually isn't an efficient or clear boundary, and it left everyone frustrated. Black parkgoers, of course, wanted the entire park desegregated and the ability to access the trails and overlooks of any other taxpaying citizen. And white parkgoers who were used to the no pun intended black and white lines of Jen Crow were unsatisfied with the gray areas of racial segregation that the park presented. The issue was eventually taken up by the NAACP, and plenty of black outdoor organizers, yes, there were black outdoor rec organizers in the 1930s, fought for years for their right to enjoy the great outdoors like anyone else. And guess what? They won. It took some time, but by 1945, national parks nationwide became fully integrated. But this is bigger than the park itself because these are now the very first lands in the South to be integrated. Hundreds of thousands of acres in the heart of Jim Crow South were now somewhat, emphasis on somewhat, an oasis of racial political progress, decades before the Civil Rights Act was signed. It's history like that, matched with the information we gathered from the Amplify Outside survey that make clear politics and green space are not just in conversation, but green space is inherently a political topic for black, brown, and indigenous peoples alike. And if that's the case, what's a better case study than Detroit, Michigan? Detroit is America's blackest major city in the Great Lakes, or Michigan is arguably one of, if not the most, climate-resilient region on the planet. And what we know to be true about this climate crisis we're in is that communities of color have and will continue to bear a disproportionate brunt of extreme weather events and impacts. So what does that mean for a city like Detroit? Undoubtedly a city of color, and firmly in a space that should leave its community, at least climate-wise, better off than most. Now, if you're a Detroiter listening to this, you might be wondering, where is my resilience? Extreme flooding, days of power outages, we have seen a sharp increase in climate-related distress over the past few years. But let's be clear, Detroit hasn't actually seen anything too extreme. The struggles we face have not been from acts of God, like an insurance company may tell you, but acts of policy. Generations of disinvested infrastructure, utility companies exploiting our community, industry polluting our neighborhoods. It seems like Detroiters are being denied the resilience our land offers. Now that's a big conversation that we'll have over many, many episodes, but it's why I and many others see Detroit as a place of global climate importance. Our geographic positioning gives us an opportunity to be the future, but we can't do that without addressing past and present racist policies. Something I know for a fact Detroiters are ready to do. Since our 2022 survey, Amplify Outside has hosted events like community sound bats and group hikes, which we're looking to bring back soon, so keep a lookout. The social media content I made led to somehow, some way hosting my very own, and my mom would kill me if I didn't mention this, Emmy Award-winning PBS Great Lakes Now segment, Ian Outside, where we go around the Great Lakes amplifying recreation and science. I went to get my Master's of Fine Art from Cranbrook Academy of Art, building a visual practice that explores all the themes I've laid out here today. And I've had the pleasure of working for the Detroit Parks Coalition, a coalition of Detroit's parks and stewards committed to ensuring that all can experience the social, economic, physical, and spiritual benefits of Detroit's parks for generations to come. I've loved working with DPC because my love affair with the outdoors actually started outside the city, and I admittedly underestimated just how much Detroit proper had to offer. But Detroit has over 300 parks, including the second most popular state park in the country, Belle Isle, and the largest urban park in the region, Rouge Park. But like the national park story I told earlier, many of these parks hold a deeply political and racial history. This story in Detroit starts in 1967, during the uprising, and let's make sure to call it an uprising and not a riot, because people weren't just wild and out, they were rightfully fed up. And post-upprising, lawmakers, including the governor William Milliken, were racking their brains to make sure the community never got to that boiling point again. And if you can guess it, one of the solutions presented was actually parks. It was recognized that ample access to green space was critical for every community's well-being, and a survey showed that 87% of Detroit residents at the time were dissatisfied with the outdoor recreational facilities around them. The recognition of this lack spurred the creation of Dart, D-A-R-T, which stands for the Deprived Area's Recreational Team, tasked with increasing access for Detroit residents to outdoor rec. At this point, we are deep into white flight, and there are clear differences in the access between a rapidly growing white suburban population and Detroit's black residents. Dart got to work building dozens of parks around the city that were so appreciated that the biggest complaint was that the parks aren't being built fast enough. Now, unfortunately, Detroit's population and economy continue to decline, and Dart's budget could only go so far. But Detroit's parks and green spaces today still serve that history of being places of invaluable importance for Detroiters, especially black Detroiters. In the last few years, I've seen up close just how much beautiful nature and green action there is in this city to enjoy and work towards. To dive more into that today, I couldn't think of anyone better to talk to than our first guest, City of Detroit's Director of Sustainability, Zephira Russian.

SPEAKER_05 13:39

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Donna Givens Davidson 14:11

Calling on residents and lovers of the East Side, the Spring Studemeyer Showcase on April 16th is your invitation to come in, get connected, and discover all that the Staldenmeyer Wellness Hub offers for Eastsiders. Experience the space, meet staff and instructors, and learn more about programs designed to support everyday life. Whether you're looking for health and wellness resources, opportunities for your children or family, or ways to stay connected and engaged in the community, join us on April 16th and see why the Stademeyer is the place to be.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

I'm excited too.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Okay. My first question, which I think I'll ask every guest, which is, how did the outdoors find you, or how did you find the outdoors?

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Okay. I like this question. Well, you know, I used to go camping as a as a kid. My grandparents paid for uh, you know, a little couple week venture. Um, and actually, I was the only little brown kid at the camp. Really? And that's like that's literally how like, yeah, because yeah, like maybe maybe one or two of us. And um, yeah, it was like a small camp. And yeah, but I remember very vividly like um going out there for weeks on end, because that mom's single mom, she was send me for a couple weeks, and um, you know, like coming back in the city, like you could literally, like I literally felt this shift happen. Like you had to like put your guard back up. You know what I'm saying? Like I'd be out of camp, like my hair be looking crazy, and I don't even care how dirty I am. And then um coming back to the city, I could feel like, you know, putting up that guard and and just like looking at the different things that was happening in Detroit at that time. And um, so it was like a an actual awakening of like me versus like the guard I put up.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

You know what I'm saying? So you got like you realized who you were through the outdoors. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

One of the um I did an interview once with Amani Mixon, and she said this quote I hope I don't butcher it, but she basically said, The city speaks for you before you can speak for yourself in a way that the land never can. And I just thought that was like goosebumps, like on the nose.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

So you encapsulated it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Oh my God. So how did that affect you? Like you're saying, most people you probably around in the city did not have that experience.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Exactly, exactly. I was coming home and um seeing that my peers weren't actually having that experience, like you said, and um, you know, um, I wanted like everybody to feel that difference. Just like, you know, I mean, I love the city. I'm from the city, I love the city, but it is a certain bravada that you have to have that is not necessarily um who you are on the inside when you feel like you don't have to defend yourself, you know what I'm saying? Like you feel safe, you know what I'm saying? Totally safe. Um, and um yeah, I wanted I wanted others to experience that for sure, for sure. That started me on the trajectory for real.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Okay, cool. Because I know you, I know your trajectory is something that started maybe in more of a farming space, which is a little different from camping. So, how did that outdoor rec camping make it to food?

SPEAKER_01 17:51

I know people be like, you be doing this, you be doing that, you be doing this, but like I like to me it's all the same because it is very much um, it is very much. I mean, farming is being outdoors, right? You know what I'm saying? So yeah, my trajectory was outdoors, but how did I get to farming? Because do you want the whole story?

SPEAKER_00 18:11

I do. Absolutely do.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

No, you know, okay, so I would say that like my early 20s, I got really involved in the black liberation movement here in Detroit. Um, I began to study all the things, all the philosophies, and really went hardcore with it. You know, I was definitely, I had locks down to my butt and I wore a hair wrap like Erica Badu. You know what I'm saying? I did, yes. And I will go show you the pictures, please.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

I'm gonna ask you for some B-row pictures. Please make sure that's a bit.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah, and um, you know, we were, you know, we were in the thick of it. We were very much critical of the system, very much like looking at how um black and brown folks were victims of the system in a lot of ways. And um, you know, as we were going deep into this theory um of kind of black liberation, there was like a point where I'm like, well, practically, you know, if these systems that we are critical of collapse today, you know, we were like, you know, down with the system, you know, all of the things, right? But if it actually collapsed today, um, how ready are we? I I really think a lot of us are gonna be in trouble.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

The very systems that are harming us are actually also um something that we've are we're very dependent on. You know, so I'm like, so is this talking? Are we talking or are we what are we doing here? Because, you know what I'm saying? It got to a point where we're very much deep, we very much see the harm, we very much see the capitalist system and how it's, you know, how it's perpetuating harms in our community. Um, and what are we gonna do about it? You know what I'm saying? And what are we gonna do about it? My thought was like, if we really want to break free, we need to find ways to be independent of those systems. Very first thing is gonna be food. Always. Very first thing is gonna be food. Yep. Um, we need to figure out, so you know, I'm living in one of those neighborhoods who um was experiencing all the effects of the housing collapse in Detroit. Um Lower East Side, a lot of us are over there. Um, you know, you can go out on your block, it's 20, 30 vacant lots. And used to be renters, renters leave. The block is um full of, you know, somebody's squatting, somebody's um pulling out the metal, out the home. Um and, you know, I'm looking, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm raising my kids over in this neighborhood. Yeah. And I'm this poor righteous liberation activist, right? Um, and so I just I started growing food in my backyard. I expanded to a community garden on that block, sowing seeds community garden because I wanted to sow some seeds. It was a physical and a mental thing, you know what I mean? And so, yeah, growing food was a part of like um me rebelling against the system in a way. Wow, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah, that makes complete sense. And there's so much, there's so much theory out there, right? And and you got straight to the praxis. Yeah. It's just so critical. And it's and it's you know, we'll get into your story later. But like you said, like you were sowing seeds, you didn't even know we're gonna get to where you are today.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

I did not.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Yeah, I did not know. Bring me to that journey a little bit. You're sitting too in front of me today as director of sustainability of the largest black city in America. Like, that is just like that's incredible. It's like I I'm I'm always giving you flowers because that's that's just really. Incredible. So thank you. Bring me there.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah. Well, yes. So I was, you know, growing food. I did a uh farm apprenticeship. Actually, like part of my rebellion, I dropped out of school.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

I dropped out of my my mom thought I was crazy. My mom thought I had joined the cult. You know what I'm saying? Like I was literally out here, okay? Um, but you know, I was doing living the righteous fight. You know what I'm saying? And um, and I did a farm apprenticeship to learn more about how to do it. So I did that apprenticeship with uh the greening of Detroit. And I was actually in a miracle program, you know, now that I understand what what I was doing. So I was working at a farm, not making a lot of money. Um, and then I loved it. Like I loved everything I was learning. I got to be outside again, no, with with not caring about how dirty I am. Literally, fingers dirty, touching the soil, um, and learning how to become independent. You know what I'm saying? And um, yeah, so I did that for like two years. And then because I didn't have a degree, I bust my ass. It's like, oh, can we? Do whatever you need. You know, I was busting, I was busting, but because also, also, unfortunately, where I was at at the time, it was a urban farming organization in the city, all white staff. Again, found myself as the only little brown thing. And it's me. I'm a little light-skinned brown thing too. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm not even like, you know, right. You're like all the way there. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, you know, um, but again, so you know, there was there was the seeds of like, what is this, you know, inequity of like, where are we in leadership in these roles? You know what I'm saying? And why aren't we? You know, we're in an urban farming organization in Detroit.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Why are we not? How does this look this way?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

How does this look this way? How did this get this way? And actually, I'm sure you know Detroit Black Food Security Network. Absolutely. Um, they hit me up and I was like going to a lot of their events because I'm like, where's my hee who? Yeah. So I was going to a lot of their events and Mama Hanifa, I will shout her out. She asked me to do a presentation on the history of agriculture. And I decided this was my opportunity to really dig into like this question of like, why are we here? The most of the players in the urban ag movement at that time were um young white um folks who sometimes moved into Detroit to do this work. Um, no shade on them, but also we need to balance this out. We're in an 85% black city, right? Yeah. Uh we're the levers of power. You know what I'm saying? And so um, so I got to do a little digging on kind of how the urban ag movement started with a lot of black grandmas trying to clean up the neighborhood, with a lot of black organizers, the bog center, revolutionary thinkers. Um, and I got to digging, I got to do interviews. Coleman Young did a farm a lot program with the city. Yes. Yes. So, yes, urban farming used to be something that Parks and Rec did. So they would pass out seeds, they would all the things that the nonprofits would do now, right? When the city went through its kind of um collapse and bankruptcy, and um all of those all of those services that the city was providing got kind of pulled in by nonprofits, which is great. So, so urban farming now is done by nonprofits, but at the time the city was doing it. So I got to look at these different black leaders, and of course, like the national like black farmers movement, and like so I'm like doing a lot of thinking, just even putting together this PowerPoint from Mama Hanifa.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

I'm gonna bring it back to that. Yeah, and you know, I had this lingering question: where are we in this story? You know what I'm saying? And so, um, so yeah, I did that presentation and they and also I brought in like the founding of Detroit. You know, so as I kept doing a presentation, I would do this history, everybody would call me for the history of Urban A. At this point, I was like five, six years in the game. I was OG, you know what I'm saying? And uh, you know, so I would do this PowerPoint, so I would keep adding on to it. I started adding the indigenous history of um farming, what they were growing, who they were, who those original tribes were. And also, who were the settlers? What was the relationship? You know what I mean? Yeah. And when you I'm sorry, am I going away too?

SPEAKER_00 26:44

No, you're fine because what you're doing is like the point of this podcast, which is you started on this little point and it just expanded completely out. Like we are all the way back in colonial Detroit at this point when we started.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

1701.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Detroit was founded. Did you want to start your podcast? And that's what it takes sometimes. But no. I'm that type of person. Like, I pull the string and I keep pulling because I want to know. I want to know. And yes, it turns out that um the French settlers would actually sell farmland at Detroit because you know Detroit is known as black bottom. Why is it known as black bottom?

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Because the soil was so rich. Hello! I know a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

He knows but most people think it's because of the black folks, right? It's because we had all of these rich tributaries running through the city from the river and making this really black, deep soil, right? And the French settlers saw that and they parsed out the land, right? And hello, gave it to their counterparts to settle the area. They, hello, land grants gave it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yes, yeah, no profit. Yes, it's like we need a community, so people need to be here and grow things.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

That part. And where they put their community, right around the fort. So that community served as eyes and ears to the soldiers who were taken over.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Right? Wow. And then when you look at those farms, those original land grants, they are the names of the streets that run through downtown.

unknown 28:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Those are the farmers. John R. De Quinder. Um, all of these.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

And see, before you got here, I was doing a whole spiel about a little, a little national park history. And I love this because yeah, I was talking about, I won't go to you can listen in on the what you missed. Okay. Um, but I was talking about how making a national park in the South created a tension between Jim Crow's southern state laws and federal land. And so it was this example of, and obviously the feds at first decided to stick with segregation. Okay. And it was this example of how outdoor recreation or outdoor things can be a weapon of, you know, this segregation, colonialism. And then eventually, through organization, through double A NAACP, they um integrated the space. So now it's the first integrated space in the South. So it's like both the weapon and a solution. And so you're talking to me here, and I'm just hearing like they used farming as a weapon.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Okay, what Malcolm say? Land is the basis of all power, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Okay, so this is this is the seeds of the Detroit Black Farmer Lamp. Because I'm like, oh, I was giving it away. Why I can't do it. Terrible. Exactly. Yes. So I'll fast forward a little bit, but that's just like the my like the trajectory my mind was going on. Like, and and and just thinking about land and inequality and like how do we um you know reconcile this issue that we have, you know, in America, yeah um and in Detroit. And um, yeah, so so yeah, so I don't know, where are we going from there?

SPEAKER_00 30:00

I was at let's see, you were you were at greening at this point?

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Okay, yes, I was at Greening at Detroit.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

And what year is this, sorry?

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Oh, let's see, this is 2010, nine.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

OG.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

I told you.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

I never I was a baby, and like it was like Baba Malik and like Mama Catherine, like I was like listening to them and sitting at their feet and listening to their stories of how they got in the game. You know what I'm saying? So it's it's um, but yeah, 2009 I did that apprenticeship, 2010, I think 2010-11, I got hired on because I was busting butt. I got hired on, um, went back to school, you know what I mean? Um, finishing that up, and then um, and then Greening of Detroit um went through a whole situation and keep growing Detroit got birthed. Um, I was part of that original thinking for Keep Growing Detroit and later actually moved over to the organization. Um, and so um so kept going with Keep Growing Detroit. Through that work, I got a chance to meet so many different community leaders in the city. Um so these are people who are wanting to do something in their neighborhoods, you know, wanting to do something on their blocks, and they're literally putting their blood and sweat and tears into like land only to not for money, but only to help their neighbors and help their community look better.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

So like just imagine all the beautiful souls that I got a chance to meet through those programs. You know what I mean? That's that that was the real um the real clutch. Um, and then from there, we um it was the 2020, you know, everything that happened in 2020 between COVID and George Floyd, um, and our organization was still not totally um there in terms of equity. Like we still were working on like black leadership in the organization. And um we were sitting at the table, like, what can we do? I had had this idea of this how do we get people land? You know what I mean? Um, and uh the Detroit Black Pharma Land Fund was birthed after that. I called, I called Bob Malik and and uh Dr. Shakira Tyler. Well, how can we do this? You know what I mean? I called Jerry Hebron, how can we do this? I called um just a couple of different partners at the table, and um we put out a um we put out a call for GoFundMe. Put out GoFundMe, got like$5,000 in like two minutes, literally. Okay by the end of the campaign, we had like$65,000. Oh my god. And we thought we were gonna like help two farmers. We ended up helping 30 in that first year. And we went from like helping, we went from like maybe two or three farmers getting land in the city to now we have maybe, I think we've hit 97 farmers have land. Right. So in this advocacy, you know, I'm talking to land bank, I'm talking to mayor's office, I'm, you know, like we need to do like because it's hard. Yeah. Even though that we have a lot of vacant land in the city, it's hard to purchase it sometimes. And we've loosened that, we've loosened that up. But um, but but yeah, so we had to, we had to bang against the city a little bit. And in that advocacy, um I'm at a table with um a number of different farms in the city, just there as as you know, as a farmer myself and representing the Detroit Black Farmer Land Fund. And um the farmers were saying, we need a liaison inside the city to um help us navigate city systems.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

And the mayor looked at me and was like, um, I think I know who I wanted to be because I was in there talking on something.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Well, I've seen this person enough. I might as well bring them on payroll.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

It'd be like that. Yeah. And I literally didn't think they were serious because I'm like, they're gonna look at my Facebook post and my history of abolition in the city, and they're gonna be like, mm-mm. You know what I'm saying? I thought, I literally thought, don't tell nobody, but I thought I know Larry, I thought that. Um, and then I got the offer from the city, and I was scared.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

You were important, you were you would fight the power and not a power. Yeah, it's here.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

And I'm like, do I, you know, or do I, you know, so I consulted the elders that gave me some advice about this and also understanding, you know, I also consulted some of our kind of like revolutionary thinkers of like, we not only need to feed ourselves, we need to learn how to govern ourselves. You know, we need to learn learn how they're doing these different systems, yeah. And learn the intricacies so we can set it up differently when we need to, right? So I decided to take that leap, you know. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

And and thank God you did. Right. I'm so curious, like, how did that feel from you going to because I've I work even in the nonprofit space, even though you know you left that more radical position, got the nonprofit space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Working alongside the city, I know it is so different. It's different, like, especially nonprofit green space. So much of what we do depends on the weather of the day sometimes. And the city of Detroit has process after process after process. So, what was that like for you approaching those processes in your space?

SPEAKER_01 35:31

No, it was scary. I was totally overwhelmed. Um, and you know, I had a lot of good people. I learned, I've learned, I'm learning a lot being inside city government because for so long, like I definitely um, you know, I definitely thought like government was the enemy in some kind of ways, you know, because of the harm that government has inflicted on our communities and, you know, or um, and I just didn't have, I didn't have a total understanding of like what the landscape is. Um, and not that I do now, but I'm learning more, meeting people inside of there, seeing their challenges inside the city, and really reflecting on what is the role, what is the role of government, you know what I'm saying? And like, so I've learned to like, okay, this is not um, it's not black or white in that in this in the way that I thought it was at one time. You know what I'm saying? And that there's definitely good people inside that help me understand and navigate and and actually like are a little bit revolutionary themselves. Like they're trying to push things, trying to push buttons, you know what I'm saying? Obviously, there's people who are not, just like on the outside. There's good folks and bad folks, and you know what I'm saying? But like in there, there's people that are trying to push, push away, make a way. And um, you know, they help me. They help me navigate through, you know, and I'm I'm st I feel like I'm still learning those all those processes, but but um, but I've definitely learned a lot in there.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yeah, it just I I don't want to say it happened quick, but it sounded like it flowed. Yeah. Right. Um, what do you think about Detroit specifically helped your experience to flow the way it has?

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Oh, okay. You know, Detroit is very relationship-based, you know what I mean? It's very um, you know, and I guess like uh for better, like for better or worse, like um I was able to generate, you know, a trust in people, you know what I'm saying? From the work that we were doing, you know what I mean? And so I think that like um one important thing that I've just like that I take away um in life is like be careful who you're talking to. Because today they could be your subordinate or whatever, and tomorrow they could be your boss, you know what I'm saying? So easy. So whoever you meet, you know what I'm saying? So be good to in your relationships, like be good to people, do your best. Um I also have done a lot of reflecting on like leadership, and like to me, it's like you tell me what you think, because I'm about to flip the script and ask you some questions too. But like, I mean leadership is like, you know, if you if you want if you want leadership, you you might not be the right person. I didn't I didn't I didn't want I didn't want any I didn't want any roles. I want to do the work for the people, you know what I'm saying? And and those are often like um, I don't I I don't want to say they're they're often the best leaders, you know what I'm saying? Because servant leadership. Yeah you know what I'm saying? What's your thoughts on this? Because you you are definitely a leader. And I that was not my plan.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

I just love going outside. Like I it was I love hiking, I love camping. Um I told the story earlier. Amplify Outside came, it wasn't supposed to be like this. It was people just kept asking me where I was going. I made a page to make Instagram stories and reels, and then people were like, make events, and then so I started making events, and suddenly I was like, Oh, I think you might be in a leadership role. Um and then that adds a whole nother layer of responsibility, right? And honestly, like guilt, even with I'm so excited for this podcast because again, I wasn't trying to start an organization, and so so many other life things have made it so you know I couldn't lead in the way I wanted to in this space. Um, but like you're saying, I think one not trying to be a leader, just wanting to serve. Uh there's so many avenues for me to just help out. And so that's really been my focus through these past couple years of finding myself in this space was just be there and be of help if you can.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Yeah. That's kind of like um Black to the Land, which we didn't really talk about a lot, but it was one of We can. It's it's one of my babies. And like um, we definitely uh Black to the Land is a nonprofit in the city that that I helped to co-found. And and um a lot of the work that I do, I've learned lessons in the farming realm, but Black to the Land is a whole different kind of environmental outdoors realm. That's where we met. Um, but um Black to the Land uh started with like like I kept mentioning, like I was finding myself in these um kind of environmental leadership spaces and being the only brown person there. And I got with a couple people who were also feeling that in their organizations. People from, you know, I don't want to call people out, but we all know that there's been issues with uh white leadership versus black leadership, particularly in black and in cities, you know what I'm saying? Like, so you know, people from Sierra Club, people from you know, different organizations um that were like, I'm also feeling this, you know what I'm saying? I'm also feeling like I'm the only black person in the room. Um and the challenges that came with that trying to like work in your city, you know, as the as the black person on the staff, you know what I'm saying? And like in in these environmental spaces. And we all got together for lunch. We just all got together for lunch because we were all trying to do different things in our programming. And uh we got together and talked about them like this is a thing. Like we need to, we need to um work together more, we will need to collaborate more, and we need to do an event together, we need to do a page together. So that just reminded me of fast that just reminded me of that, and we need a name.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

So it's branded now, and everybody's like, oh, this has a brand. This is an established organization. Exactly, right? Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Yeah, we just want to take people off some mics. You know what I'm saying? It happens so fast. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Oh my god. Well, Black to the Land Coalition is, I mean, one of my favorite organizations in the city. It has been the space where if I don't know what I'm doing with Amplify outside, I'm like, well, let me go help out over here or go to this event. Just tell me a little bit about if someone's interested in Black to the Land Coalition. What is that?

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so you know, we um facilitate all kinds of outdoor activities. Um, we try to cultivate a space that is very welcoming and sometimes exclusively for black and brown people. Um, so we do hikes, we do a lot of kayaking, that's one of our favorites. We do hunting, we do um archery, we do anything that you can think of outdoors, and we try to lower those barriers of interest so you don't always have to worry about this expense or that expense, or I don't have this equipment or that equipment. There's always somebody there to help you through that. Um, and so yeah, in that way, I think all of us at the table are very like-minded in that we're doing outdoor activities, but we're also doing more. Like we are building this intentional community. We're also um thinking about in the same way we talked about like farming is like how do you become independent of these systems that are harming you. We are using that space of like being comfortable in the outdoors, being able to have these essential skills, how to build a fire, how to purify water, like how to build community, how to do a meal together in outside. You know what I'm saying? Like these are like essential skills when we think about when we think about like, oh, you know, system collapse, or we think about, you know, climate crisis, like, you know, I think in sustainability world we use those, you know, terms, disruptions in the system. Like we use these terms, but like things be happening.

unknown 43:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

And are we ready? You know what I'm saying? Are we ready? Do we know how to, you know, do our prepare for these things? And so um, I think all of us are on the same mind, the organizers at Black to Land, that like we want to make sure that our people are ready.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Yeah. You know, absolutely. I can say from the events I've been to over the past couple of years, it has absolutely given me so much insight. I think one of the most critical things is y'all have done a lot of work on collaborating or introducing indigenous practices or just Indigenous and black relationships. And I think being from Detroit, we're spoiled as black people because we are effortlessly visible. You are going to see blackness. But a lot of indigenous folks in Detroit and Michigan beyond are, you know, frankly, invisible. So yeah, just that work that y'all do.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

That is so thank you for that. Yeah, be um, we're definitely working on building that. And that is not easy. That is not easy, but like um one of the major events that um that we've helped to pull together is um a maple tapping event. And the event is called Sugar Butch, which is their original sugar bush, which is the original name for um that time of the year where our indigenous community would um tap maple and make it a whole camp. So they would spend the night there, boil it, boil it down, get the maple. Um, and and we've um cultivated relationships with with that community to to lead those events. You know what I mean? And so um, yeah, we've definitely we've done a couple of um whenever we go camping, we look at like we're doing stuff with youth around, like what type of bark is this, you know, all like uh what can you make out of it, all the kind of things. So definitely that is um that is crucial in relationships between um different uh subsects in the United States who have been oppressed. Um and people like put that word BIPOC in there, and you know, I have different, I have like I go back and forth on that word.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Me too.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

What's your thoughts on this word?

SPEAKER_00 45:33

Um I think I think black and indigenous people particularly have a very specific relationship to America, and especially in the context of land. Yeah, I think that black and indigenous folks have a trauma to this country that is so I don't know, I want to say rooted in stewardship. Like in for indigenous folks, it was being ripped from this land that they've been stewarding for a long time. For black folks, it was being ripped from their land to then come in. And I always like to propose that it's like, yes, we were enslaved, but we were stewards. Um, you know, we were ripped from our land to come and steward this space. And so there's just this this link for us, I think, that maybe other demographics don't have. And so sometimes that BIPOC collapses a group that maybe has very, I don't want to say maybe, they do, we do have very, very different experiences. So I don't know. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 46:27

I agree. Yeah, I agree. Um, I think there's pros and cons to it, right? Because I think it's beneficial for us to be united on certain things, right? And and and share in that experience. And um, we also have to make sure that our individual like needs and and uh voices are being heard in those collaborations, right? You know. Um, so yeah, it's it's tricky. I was curious what what you thought. Can I ask you a question?

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Please.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Okay. So you you asked me what brought you to the outdoors. What brought what brought you to the outdoors, and Solomon?

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Mentioned a little earlier. So basically, I'll say this. I was always really curious in the outdoors as a kid. Like I just I remember, I used to have dreams where I would just be in the woods. Oh, fun. And I it wasn't like a bad dream. I just would wake up. I was like, oh, that was fun.

SPEAKER_03 47:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Um, and I had some school trips that were really impactful that I remember just loving. I went up north to Wolverine. We had gone to Ohio Powell, Pennsylvania, and camped out there for a couple days. And I just absolutely loved it. But, you know, my family, the people around me weren't in that space, so it's not, you know, it's not sustainable. It wasn't until uh my family moved way out into like almost commerce, like you know that area, uh, where it was trees everywhere, lakes everywhere, like it was like this is life, okay. What is going on? Um, you know, all these all these roads are just covered in leaves, you know. And at the time I was grounded because I was smoking weed. I was 17. I was 17, I was being fast. Um, and my mom said, You're not doing nothing for a couple months at the same time that we had moved far out. So I had nothing else to do to go to these woods, essentially. And to move weed. Um, but one of the things, and it's like you said earlier, where I was out there and I was like, is this the first time I'm experiencing quiet in my life? Like, is this the first time I'm hearing myself and considering myself? Like I always say, like, you know, outdoor recreation was so important to me because I realized I was self-actualized through that relationship. Like, I don't know if I would have figured out who I was if it wasn't for these experiences just walking through the woods. So it was just immediate for me.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

I think we just we had the same experience. Like it's like a different part of yourself that you get to know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Exactly. Like you just I just saw myself in a different way, and it pretty immediately became a priority in my life. You know, like I was really into politics, and Arizona State had a really good uh broadcast journalism school. And it was also Arizona. There was hiking, there was good weather. And so I remember I don't even know if my mom knows this. I actually only applied to Arizona State. I really I was like, I'm not going anywhere else. Um so I went there and I was just hiking.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

She knows now.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

She knows now. And I just I was hiking all the time, and college is a crazy time mentally, and you know, a new place. And again, it was that outdoor experience that was just continuously grounding me. And it just took off from there, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Oh, I love that story. Thank you. Thanks for asking. Yeah. So, what do you want to talk about next?

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Okay. Well, I have this opinion that Detroit has every reason to be like at the global forefront of sustainability and what exactly, and particularly equitable sustainability. We are the blackest major city, we are in one of the most climate-resilient places. Our resilience as black Detroiters is sometimes thwarted by, you know, a lot of infrastructural or policy decisions. So, my idea is Detroit is where it's at. What do we already have here that makes us where it's at? And what do you think we're missing that we can maybe bring into the fold?

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Oh man, that is a question. What are we missing? Are you speaking specifically around like environment and climate or in general?

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Well, I think we said it all goes back to that. So I mean, tell me how you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Yeah. You know, um, you know, what comes to mind in addition to what you said and what makes us this kind of pivotal place is also our history in um, you know, in cars and emissions and like factories and um industry and like um there is uh I think there's a lot of us on the ground working on that and thinking about that. Um but I think generally, um, I think like the like general regular detracters, it's not something that's on the forefront of their mind. You know what I'm saying? Um and sometimes if you say it in a different way, like uh, oh my baby got asthma or oh my baby got eczema from the food or um or um you know I think we need to instill um kind of um a little bit more culture around kind of environmentalism, like like and just like understanding our roots as an industrial city and like for us to like for us to make this flip as a city um and a poor city and a black city and a you know like for us to make this flip is like um you know is is worth is is worth like so much. You know what I'm saying? And so um so I don't know, that's what I think like I want like I want people to be connected to understand understanding like how their environment impacts their their health, understand how their environment uh you know impacts you know all the things that we do and like what understanding what they can do about it. And I want like city leadership to like really be bought in on that.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

You know what I mean? Yeah. And we have this new administration that you know, like I've you know, hats off, like I've seen so much positivity from the community about just the ideas that have already been announced from it, and you know, you on the inside. So you know what do you see with this new administration? Maybe some some new focuses we can have in that realm.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

Yeah, I mean, obviously, um our mayor is very focused on people, very focused on the neighborhoods. Um, you can tell that she just generally genuinely cares about people, like you can tell it on her face and and by the priorities that she has um for feeding people. Like she she's really excited for in our office, she works on this senior food program. So she wants the seniors to be fed healthy food. And um, she even got out there and distributed vegetables with us, you know what I mean? So like like uh she just generally genuinely cares, and you can tell. So um I think um just you know, my my my whole thing is I just want to make I just want to I feel like I just want to protect her from all the things, you know what I'm saying? I'm like, and we want to do good work and and uh for her, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 53:44

So do you have any pie in the sky ideas or anything where you're just like if I had a magic wand, this is what oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

So if I had a I have I have two big things. If I had a magic wand. If I had a magic wand, I would want a coordinated vacant land strategy for the city that includes um uh all the plants, native plants, trees, and things like that that we can incorporate into our housing centers, right? So, like um one of the things I like I said, I lived on one of those blocks. I know what it feels like for people to be dumping down the street and you know, garbage to be out, and it really takes a toll on you. And um, I would really love a strategy around how we're gonna use the vacant land in our city to our benefit, because it is an asset and it can be used for all kinds of things that can actually help to pull those pollutants out of the air and increase our biodiversity and help us with our stormwater management. You know what I mean? So that is one thing. Um, another thing is I really want to um invest in energy efficiency and solar and people's houses because I really want to reduce their energy burden. I really want them to become independent from different rate hikes and different things that are happening within this the city. I want them within the you know, uh utilities, I want them to um be free from that. Yeah, be freer from that. And I want them to understand that connection between I know I'm talking dirt dorky, like energy efficiency, right? Right. But we're actually talking about saving money on your bills.

unknown 55:25

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Right. Break it down for them. Like how much money you got in your pocket. You want more?

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Yes. Let's let's let's tight let's tighten up that roof. Um, let's put some panels on your roof and uh let's get off this. Um, let's get off of this fossil fuel that we're on, um, get some clean energy into our grid and also save you on your bills. That's that's that's my two big wishes.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Amazing. I think it's so I mean timely right now. Detroit is building the first ever urban solar field, which is actually in like my family neighborhood. Okay. Van Dyke Lynch. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

Yeah, construction is happening right now.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

I know it's like it's it's contentious. Yeah, yeah, it's it's contentious. I guess uh this will be my final question. Yeah, like what to the tension, like like what do you hear people saying? What do you think is a middle ground? Like, I because even I'm torn about it. I get it.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

No, I get it. It's tricky. I had to really understand, and there's so much like mistrust in government, right? So, like, you know, breaking it down to to bare bones, like we absolutely need to be investing in energy security for our city. So um making sure that um using what's mostly empty land to um generate energy is is a win. How you do that is another question, right? Is another question. So um the the conversations that you had, I will say that like um this project has been like um it's it's a it's a big project, right? Um it was under a time a certain timeline that I I I I wish we could have gone a little bit slower, but um we were knowing that come January we may have a new federal administration who is not as favorable um to solar we already know solar credits have displayed all the things that made this project feasible uh would likely go away. It could likely go away. I mean the first time um the first time this administration came on, uh he pulled us out of the Paris Climate Accord. He closed the EPA website, and you know, um Mayor Duggan actually joined a coalition of climate mayors to say we still want to hit those um Paris Climate agreements as cities, you know what I'm saying? Um and that was um you know that was courageous and um so we are we already knew that that was a possibility and we had to like move move at a pace to think about that. Um but I will say I was a part of the um community um engagement for that. Um and while and you were in that neighborhood, so I'm not sure if you were if you attended those meetings and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

I heard he got kicked out, but oh even though he could be a little uh Okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

I will say that um I was pleasantly surprised because I was coming from nonprofit where we're community engagement up. You know what I'm saying? Um I was pleasantly surprised at the amount of time the city did go into the neighborhood. They knocked on the doors, they tried to make sure everybody knew about the meetings, you know what I mean? Tried to explain a very complex thing um around the grid and energy. Um, and I would say that they they definitely put uh more effort than I thought a government would do with my skeptical mind. Um, yeah, and I will say like um 165 acres is what the total footprint of the project is, and that's huge for amount of generation. Yeah, um, but it's a drop in the bucket for the vacant land that we have in the city, honestly. We have um don't quote me on the number, but something like 4,000 acres of vacant land in the city. Um, and I think in an ideal world, um we like this is why I say I want a vacant land strategy because we need to get behind as a community um and understanding it's a it's a it goes really deep because I don't think we've totally grappled with the trauma that we have gone through as a city from going from this big economic driver in the country of two million people down to the population that we have, and really coming to terms with what does that mean for our neighborhoods? What does it look like? I mean, that's very sensitive. This is where people live, their family home was there, you know, like this is a very deep issue, but it's something that we have to together like come around and say, okay, we're at 600,000, 630,000, I think. And our city was built for two million.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

And you know, it I every time I go to a city, I say, I'm sorry if my answer is kind of long here, but every time I go to a city, I I want to know what size is the city, you know why? Because I'm like, how big is it compared to Detroit? Like my son was just in Boston. You know, do three of three Bostons can fit inside Detroit. People don't realize how big we are. Yeah, and that means that that's a strain on city services when we're talking about bus routes, we're talking about bus stops, we're talking about fire, we're talking about police, we're talking about all the services that your tax dollars pays for, yeah. That's in the budget, has to be spread across three Bostons for the same same number of people. Wow. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, so I think if we could start with that conversation of like, okay, y'all.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

What do we do with all this?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:15

Come on, come to the table. What we're gonna do and come to some healing around our city is not gonna look the same over the next 20, 30, 40 years. Now, 40, 50 years, we might see a whole new Detroit. But who's gonna be here? Right. We our people are here right now, and we gotta think about what are our neighborhoods looking like right now. Yeah. What are we gonna do with it? Can we do solar? Can we do trees? Can we do, you know what I'm saying? We have to come to some kind of agreement about that in a plan and and and and then do the projects. You know what I'm saying? Right. And so that is where how you do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

I hear you. You didn't ask for my opinion, but I'm gonna give you a few. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will ask. It's it's like a it's a it, I'll say slightly. My only thing was, like you were saying, is um acknowledging the trauma, you know, it with it being my family neighborhood, right? I didn't grow up there. I say family neighborhood in the sense of my grandparents, my mom, and all my family grew up there. My uncle's still in the house. Yeah. And I just think about, you know, in the 80s, they were there and it was a bustling neighborhood. And now a generation later, it has enough room for 40 acres of solar field. And so my whole thing was I think it makes sense to use this space for solar field. How are we answering to the history and the trauma that allowed for this solar field to exist here? But I'll put my mic down there.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

That part. That part.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

Yeah. Oh, well, thank you so much, Tefir. Like this was honestly way better than I even imagined. And I was already super excited for it. Right. So is there anything before we officially end that you would like to shout out? I know Black to the Land Coalition is looking for a treasurer.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

Yes, join our board, please. We need um like-minded people who um get it and really want to help people get outdoors. Um, uh, we need support on our board. We're an all-volunteer organization. Uh, people don't realize that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

You just do so well. Surely it's funded.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

Join the board.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

On that note, that's my plug. Yeah. Well, thank you, Tep Fira, and thank you, everyone who's listening right now. Um, I guess that's the end of the first episode of Amplify Sun.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

All right, we good.

unknown 1:03:37

Hello.