Hi, and welcome to the Affiliate Insider Podcast with me, Leanne Johnston. This is a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers. Listen up as I explore the latest digital and affiliate marketing trends and give you the insider's group on what's occurring in affiliate marketing. Join us as we explore affiliate strategies, host expert interviews with leading affiliates and tech entrepreneurs, and discuss the latest affiliates and digital marketing trends. If you want to stay at the cutting edge of affiliate marketing, you're in the right place. Join me for this week's episode and let's get started.
SPEAKER_01This podcast is brought to you by AMP. Affiliate Insider is an independently owned business. So we're sponsoring this podcast episode to showcase our exclusive affiliate management performance program. AMP is our unique program for affiliate marketing program managers. We've helped hundreds of affiliate managers across a range of brands to get the best of their affiliate partnerships and build consistent sales. Safe to access each semester are very limited, so don't miss out. Run as a live coaching session once per week. This 12-week intensive training program is suitable for affiliate program managers at all levels. You will learn proven tactics and strategies that allow you to upscale your program or team performances, growth hack your sales using tried and tested strategies that have been gained from decades of experience running million-dollar affiliate programs worldwide. For more information on what AMP offers or how to book your place on the next open cohort, please visit affiliateinsider.com and hit the training button to find out more.
SPEAKER_04Welcome back to Affiliate Insiders Affiliate Marketing Podcast with me, your host and fellow affiliate marketer, Leanne Johnston. Each week we'll dive a little deeper into affiliate marketing, a subject I've been in love with for more than two decades. I started out in affinite marketing way back in the early 2000s when we were wearing some phenomenally bad fashion and walking around with blackberries in our pockets. And for those of you that are young enough not to remember, that's not a fruit. It's been a wild ride then to now, and we're busy gathering loads of stories, experience, and expertise to help those of you who are new to our community learn from the past and figure out your own innovative future strategies. I've said it before that this is one of the most exciting industries to work in. We're certainly starting to see Athenian marketing become a model of choice for brands who want to leverage multiple sources of traffic and also expand their brand reach to build lasting referral relationships. I started this podcast to help our community gain access to real life experts, listen in on fly-on-the-wall conversations with entrepreneurs, CEOs, affiliate practitioners, and brands that are driving incredible reach using affiliate marketing as the model of choice. Yep. We're finally getting a look in from the rest of the digital marketing industry. And this channel now deserves so much attention this year. And I think we're finally going to become more attractive to bigger brands and see investment and innovation come to the fore, which is really exciting to see. Now onto this week's affiliate marketing episode. In case you missed the past few weeks' episodes, or if you've been a bit busy, or you maybe even missed our summit, we kick-started this year with a phenomenal digital and affiliate marketing event called Amplify. This was a virtual summit designed to help digital and affiliate marketers just like you come together to learn and share insights, gain access to everyday experts who are doing incredible things in this industry, and learn a few new tricks as we look to the future of digital and affiliate marketing and where things are moving in the year ahead. In this week, which is episode three of our Amplify Summit series, I'll be sharing some of the pertinent points that were shared across our SEO expert panel, which showcased Judith Lewis, Rishi Lakani, and Martin Culver, three very well-known SEOs in the British community. Together they shared some interesting thoughts about how SEO trends and the practicalities of moving forward need to be addressed, especially if you're working in affiliate marketing. If you're short on time andor missed nabbing yourself a seat to amplify before the doors were closed early at this inaugural event, head on over to our website now. That's www.affiliateinsider.com and go register yourself to attend our Elevate event in June now. You won't want to miss this next event. So go on. It only takes a second to sign up. Press pause now, hit the pink button on our homepage, and go book your seat to join us at Elevate. I'll even wait for you. Okay, all done. Got your seat booked? Great. In a moment, you'll be hearing some of the biggest questions that I often get asked about SEO from affiliates and affiliate managers too, and what the experts had to say about it. Like, should we buy links or should we just focus on writing content? Along with some of the top takeaways from the panel discussion that we're showcasing in this week's episode. If contact is king and drives SEO forward, do we still need to be doing link building and if so why? And I'm going to start with Jeta because I always want to give the ladies the first go.
SPEAKER_05Oh my God. I listen, the the core of the way that the internet works is through interconnectivity, right? So we back in my day, back in my day, when I was less and things were not so digital. Um we we used to have things called web rings and we we had links because you couldn't find your way around because we had no Google and uh internet was um poor in terms of the quality of our search engines. So you had to link, and Google's core is built on that. If we don't keep linking to each other, first of all, why are we being so stingy with introducing people to other things? Second of all, how are they gonna move around our sites? We've got to link to ourselves as well as linking to other people. And thirdly, like this is what the internet is it's it's bringing things together and linking things together. Aside from that, it is a big metric, it is a big signal, it is a big vote. We have to be link building, but what we have to not be doing is the old 2010s type of link building, which is just buy it and just you know, spray it and pray, uh, because that'll get you sunk these days. So be smart, but keep link building.
SPEAKER_04Okay, and what about you, Martin, with your 80 countries around the world?
SPEAKER_03Well, I was gonna say is um you know, spray it and pray. Is that another porn reference? I wasn't sure. But um in terms of yeah, link building, I think Judas is absolutely right. It's how websites are discovered, it's how people discover websites, and you know, it's how Google also uncovers new websites and figures out how the whole thing relates to one another. It's kind of baked into the Google Python, it's baked into the entire ecosystem around page rank, it's it's not going away. Um, because you then have the question, if it wasn't for links, what else would there be? How else can you determine quality and rep reliability and um topicality and all this type of stuff? Um content alone doesn't cut it because content needs oh, this I was gonna say content needs context. So a bit of alliteration and links provide some of that context as well. And but what I think on that international point, Leanne, um I do think what works in different countries differs based on how competitive the link building landscape is. And I think it's also fair to say that Google pays more attention to some markets than others. Does Google spend a lot of time working out what a toxic link looks like in Mongolia versus what a toxic link looks like in California? Probably probably not. So there's definitely definitely kind of variances where there's probably markets where you can still do that 2010 style link spray and prey stuff and be perfectly alright, maybe for years in the future. But uh if you're building sustainable business either to profit or to sell a few years in a line, it seems an unnecessary level of risk and not that fun.
SPEAKER_04So if you're a brand, you can have a link building strategy, but if you're in a village, you can have a link holding strategy too. And does it does it you like is there a lot of thought that needs to go into these types of things before you go out there and start spending money? Rishi, I don't know if you want to comment on that or Martin.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what most people tend to forget is the whole link penalty thing, which people are really, really worried about, it's not an ongoing process. Yeah, it's a cyclical review of those links, right? Um, which means that let's say in the failure industry, you could have a short-term link boost. So say I'm hitting Christmas and my site's just at the bottom of page one for a bunch of profitable Christmas-related keywords. I could go out there and buy a ton of those links that are literally a short-term investment, right? There could be about a month. I've just bought them for a month, and once that period's over, I get that quick boost. My site ranks, and that ranking stays, by the way, because Google has a link kind of like remembrance history, kind of there. So those that those rankings there for a while, but in the meantime, those links have come off. So by the time that penalty review comes in, I don't have those bad links, but I did make the money off them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that it's definitely a possibility to do that kind of link building. I think that an affiliate, I I would suggest that an affiliate that isn't playing hard, like it isn't their full-time 100% focus, might be taking a little bit of a risk with that one. Absolutely. Um, so the more casual affiliate, I would suggest focusing on the kind of links that are going to bring you traffic because those are your long-term links. But definitely I've I've played in finance um as well as you know the three P's. Um pills, you if they're legit, and I've worked in pharma as well as other stuff. Um uh I would say that in pharma we have to be a lot more careful about our links than in other industries, but you wouldn't I wouldn't spray and pray in pharma, but I might in in gambling if I knew that like with Rishi, it was a full-time thing, and I was just pulling them in for a short boost and then going back down. And I've done it in finance and it worked. So, you know, definitely give it a try if you're full-time.
SPEAKER_02And actually, the we have a real case study of uh a brand that got caught up in that big before pre-event uh link building. It was into Flora a few years ago with bike editorials, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, quite a few years. But basically, the internal agent the agency was doing some decent link building, but the in-house team decided we can do the same thing ourselves at scale and went off and bought a ton of editorials at one go, and obviously, that big boost coming from a large range of newspapers, etc., raised flags, and not only did they get penalized, everyone else that was doing that strategy got hurt in the process. So if you're doing SEO and you think you're smart, don't try and overdo things because you're actually not ruining it for yourself, you're killing the whole industry at one go. I know at least four agencies that went bust straight after on the back of that event, right? So don't poison the well, yeah. Don't poison the well. There's a reason why you hire SU agencies that know what they're doing, you can't try and outgun them, out jump them because you see what they're doing, you try to replicate it at 10x. It doesn't work that way. We do things very carefully, right? So don't be smart about these things, and like you know, uh Judith says, even for the affiliate side of things, you're buying those short terms. I'm gonna assess the risks one off, right? So, is there a risk for me doing this quick boost link? Maybe, maybe not, but I've got to assess that. If you haven't got the tools to assess that tools meaning the background, the history, the knowledge, I don't mean the technical tools you get out there because most of those things are just their own metrics. I don't go by any of the link building tools metrics at all.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think you've got to be so careful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, when people start buying links by DA and TR and TF, it it's all passed because they're their own metrics. You can boost those metrics after you artificially and sell links from the back of that. So you've got to be smart about this.
SPEAKER_04Another question I'm often asked is should I allow my affiliates to do PPC or use brand-related keywords? Listening closely to what was said.
SPEAKER_02I used to work for a very relatively large lingerie brand, but there were certain keywords from a brand perspective I could not rank for because I couldn't use them on the site. But my affiliates can because they've got no brand issues. So therefore, yes, I will boost the authority to the nth degree if I can, and I'll help them do it because yes, I'm going to pay them a commission, but I will make clear that look, I'm going to reduce your commission because I'm going to help you boost that authority. Because I can't rank for those keywords from a brand perspective. You can, you're going to get the sales on the back of that, and I'll have those sort of deals set up.
SPEAKER_04And again, that comes into the strategy, doesn't it? It's about linking about what do you need that linking to do for exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And it's also the whole thing about also multiple listings. If I want to rank for multiple keywords, again, I'm happy to link to those affiliates or help them build links because I want those top three positions. I don't care if I have to then pay commissions on the second two, but I want those top three positions, and I'll I'll dominate that way if I have to.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And and I mean, I I might do it with a PBN a little bit, but you know, if if I want if I'm greedy, it's a heck of a lot more work.
SPEAKER_04Please talk about PBN because because we're using a lot of jargon in this.
SPEAKER_05Sorry, I might even do it with a private um set of websites that I have designed, am hosting, and I'm putting content up on in order to own more of the space without my brand specifically being directly associated with that website. So, like with Rishi and Lingerie, or I've got a client in e-commerce where we're we're fighting against people like Amazon. If I want to take more of that, I don't want Amazon affiliates there. I want my affiliates there so that my affiliates are two, three, four, five. I'm getting the money. It doesn't matter that I have to pay them a commission. I'm paying them to take that slot away from Amazon or another um competitor.
SPEAKER_03I mean, there's a lot that goes into this. I mean, there's a load of issues that have just been thrown up there. So I mean, I don't know, Rishi, we are you talking about like for your affiliate example there? Was that like competitor keywords that they could rank for?
SPEAKER_02No, you could talk brand sensitive keywords. So can you use sometimes you, for example, you can't use nude or naked or right, right? Right? So yeah, lingerie to make you look more naked, those are kind of odd keywords, but sure, I got it. So I mean I think all right. So I want to dominate for it, but I can't do my own brand set.
SPEAKER_03So I think for that kind of thing, it's just you know, we're working at the commercials. So if the affiliate's listening again, I'd say it's like how much these terms, how much these terms are worth to you? How much is it worth to give your affiliate partners a boost for that? Because there can be the law of unintended consequences if they get a boost for that, but they also get boosted for our other core brand terms and start out ranking you. That's not a terrific outcome. Likewise on on PBM stuff, there'll be some industries where that is um the reputational risk doesn't justify the the even potentially heavy commercial gains or long-term risk.
SPEAKER_04There's still a lot of affiliate programs that limit um affiliates in terms of what they can or can't do. So I think there's more of a culture of embracing affiliates as part of your overall marketing strategy and actually leveraging them to um you know get you in places where you can't or where you don't really want to be pushing your brand.
SPEAKER_03Your couple of HelloFresh and recipes and things like that, and kind of you know, general positive content, I think that's a great example. And it probably is one where that that is suitable for both social and for on site as well, because you're not competing with yourself, but you're getting into areas where you're actually building building upon the kind of brand promise, all the type of stuff. So, as a rule of thumb, so pulling things back from technical stuff around PBNs and short-term link booths, you need and just need to think what makes sense in terms of linking, what what would be a logical link? If you have a strong partner, it makes sense to kind of um have that relationship upfront and clear.
SPEAKER_02One of the things that we used to have in those situations, and I still do them occasionally, is we'd have a formal agreement in place that lasts an X amount of time where they cannot promote, for example, competitors or can't impeach on prime terms because we are commercially helping them get that revenue, so they're dependent on us, right? So we'll in fact sometimes take on the cost of their link building because we know what the offset is for us and the value is for us. So you've got to really be able to be smart about this. If if you're not smart, like I said, you know, if you haven't got the background of the history or the tools, a resource and the experience to deal with these, don't make those deals without having an expert in the room.
SPEAKER_04So there you have it, right from the expert SEO's mouths. Seek to work more cohesively with your referring partners and use their strengths to build your own. Follow their instructions if you are going to take the leap to work closer with your affiliate partners this year and really start leveraging group SEO. Think strategically. What does the link need to do for you and how will it help you to expand your reach? Does it boost your authority and build your first page real estate? And will it leverage your partner's commercial terms and reduce costs to justify that SEO boost on both sides? Next up, we spoke about brand protection products as the audience posed this question. What are your thoughts on brand protection products that curate major content to hit the top of the search listings? Um, is there an opinion that this has an expiry date? So, and again, I suppose this speaks to your term of you know, when you have in-house marketing teams trying to do SEO, they take a brand protection tool. Is that enough? Or, you know, as you start getting higher up in the echelons, do you really need to have that strategy in place and have an expert come in and help you?
SPEAKER_03Um I mean, if it's like a productized thing where it's a kind of pay for this package and fix your reputation, and I I am like heavily cynical about that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_03Um second. Sorry, I think my microphone just fell out there.
SPEAKER_04I can still hear you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, I think it's mainly kind of I think you've got probably two aspects. One is the technical aspect of SEO. So rather than calling it brand protection is just a type of SEO. So I think to accomplish what you want to accomplish in SEO terms, it'll come down to content, links, internal linking, all that type of stuff. So displacing pages that you don't want to rank and trying to promote pages that you do want to rank. But I think sometimes it gets into the second part of this niche, which is branding. So not brand technically, but just your general brand activity. And sometimes if your brand has taken a hit because of some bad, some bad thing that you've done, you might have to take the hit a little bit. Maybe, maybe the best approach is not to try and obfuscate and hide, maybe the best approach is to try and take something head on. So, for example, you've got cruise ships that have issues with like coronavirus outbreaks and things like this. Rather than hide that, maybe the best thing to do is try and emphasize the the kind of protections that you have in place. If you have a product issue, maybe try and take that head on or fix the underlying cause of your brand problem. Um that's that's just where I think most, well, many reputable companies should be focusing their attention. So they can't churn and burn quick money companies. Um they'll they'll put money into whatever, but even on a pure efficacy basis, I'm not I'm not really convinced of short-term brand protection packages per se.
SPEAKER_05And I've just been I've just been dealing with a client where they specifically want to remove um bad reviews. So one was a forum bad review, and one was a Facebook bad review. Um one finance, one more retail. And I said to them, look, it's going to cost you this much money. How much is this bad review costing you? What do you feel is the cost to your business of this of this bad information? Now, the the one in the finance industry, it actually set expectations. The bad review is because the returns from the market that year weren't as good as previous years. And so the person took to Facebook gave them a bad review. And I said, this is an opportunity to set expectations, not try to bury Facebook out of your brand results. The other one was a bad form, old forum post from a company that had the same name but was no longer around and was unfortunate. Um, but I again I said, look, there is this is an incredibly strong forum post because everybody has linked to it from a thousand different places. What you need to do is own the result saying that you're under new management or something similar, that you're not the same company, because otherwise the cost to you of removing this one post instead of changing your title tags, one post and you want to spend 10,000 pounds on it. Listen, I'll take your money, but you know, or or more than 10. Um, I'll take your money and I'll do the work, but it's really not going to make a difference to your bottom line. So from a brand Protection point of view, you've got to make sure that the bottom line is also kept in sight because otherwise we're doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff.
SPEAKER_04So there you have it. Keep your SEO authentic. Reviews and reputation need to be managed based on the bottom line and not just for doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff. You gotta love how straightforward Judith is in her delivery. So moving on, because there was a lot covered in this panel, the last thing I wanted to touch on and share, simply because it came up in the panel after I'd done quite a bit of reading on Google about what this year's top SEO trends are gonna be, was LSI keywords. Listen up for what was said.
SPEAKER_05We've chatted in the past about LSI keywords.
SPEAKER_04I was just gonna come on to that and that fake news that you read in Google which you say one of the top tips for SEO. Come, let's talk about it right now.
SPEAKER_05So you you see a lot of search results um for LSI keywords. And I believe that I've been on record. I think I've been on stage as well, and it's recorded online as me saying that anybody who tries to sell you an LSI keyword package not only doesn't know what they're doing, but is, you know, conning you because LSI is latent semantic indexing. And while I get that it sounds like something that Google might maybe be involved in, and the possibility exists because we've been using semantically related keywords for what over a decade? Um, and indexing is what Google does, latent, just thrown in there for fun. And LSI is a short, snappy three-letter acronym, and it's a lie. It comes out of if anybody's been watching the marvelous Mrs. Mazel, it comes out of Bell Labs. It literally comes out of Bell Labs. I loved that link. And um, I loved the Marvelous Mrs. Mazel, but LSI keywords are not something that you should be using because LSI latent semantic indexing has to do with a closed, closed, small ecosystem of documents. The web is way too big to even begin to think about doing that. So anybody who tries to sell you that package of LSI keywords doesn't know what they're doing, is trying to obfuscate or hide the fact that they don't know what they're doing, or they're just selling you something that is is lies and smoke and mirrors.
SPEAKER_02Or they're just learning a lot of shit on internet and just basically learning everything.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, lies.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there's a lot of misinformation, a lot of misinformation on the internet, and that is why I wanted to get the three of you guys together to actually talk about what do digital marketers need to do to amplify. And I want to spend the next half of this session really talking about that. So there you have it, guys. We mythbusted LSI for you right there. As an aside, I actually did start watching the fabulous Mrs. Mazel, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. So if you're watching it too on Netflix, give me a thumbs up on LinkedIn when this episode is posted. And don't do any spoiler alerts, as I might not be at the same spot as you. And for the last clip I'm sharing this week from the plethora of insights that we shared in this hour-long panel, we got back to the theme of amplifying SEO performance this year. Take a listen to what the top tips were shared as we wind down this week's podcast episode, giving you just a few of the highlights from this awesome event.
SPEAKER_02Micro optimization.
SPEAKER_04Okay, talk about that. What is it?
SPEAKER_02So if you've got an agency in place that's doing all the difficult stuff, the technical and the link building and that sort of thing, then what the internal team should really focus on is micro-optimization of the site, meaning open up Search Console, look at your individual pages. What are they ranking for? What keywords they don't rank for at the right level, right? Yeah, and then cross-reference, optimize this pages to the nth degree. Because if you haven't optimized this pages for the nth degree, you're never really going to get that boost. You only keep optimizing, continuously optimizing what new keywords are being discovered. You know, most people look at the top 100 in Search Console and just work on those. What are the other 900 keywords the Search Console shows you? And where do you rank for those? Right? And why do you rank for them and why don't you rank for them well? Right? So that level of micro-optimization, if you've got good content pages in your site, but you don't have FAQ, for example, where you're dominating the space again, so then start looking at FAQ content, you know what schema can help you help? One of the things that a client that really helped was the only thing we did was introduce the ability for the site to rank for jump links on the search results, right? What are those? What are jump links? So basically, when you go into Google and you see a search results and you'll see a snippet of information under site link, and you'll have a link to deeper content on the site or on the page, right? They have these really long, amazingly well-written guides, but no jump links. So we just introduce a simple thing, table of contents with nice jump links. Then we built a few links to those internal links using hash links, right? And literally, I kid you not, they were dominating that space, but they're also giving people geek straight into that content and automatically a 15 to 20% boost for literally a thousand pounds of debt. Wow.
SPEAKER_03That's a really, really good point. That's huge. Yeah. And I think it's it's and I think one of the reasons these opportunities exist is that bigger companies with possibly larger, more restrictive platforms, they can't be bothered or they can't get at action. So if you're a smaller company, you have full control of your own site, you don't need to wait in a dev queue for 12 months. You can do this type of thing. So it's about looking at the content you do have, improving it where you can, um, but you know, not improving in a kind of amorphous way. Look at what improvement consists of. How can you make things better for 2022? How can you make things more authoritative based on breaking news, all that kind of stuff? And then as Rishi says, looking at how you code up that content so it can actually be understood by search engines. So I mean, there'll be sites that achieve that without um doing that, but you're kind of relying on Google taking a chance to pick out content within a wider perhaps thousand-word page. Whereas if you make it easier, your chances increase. Likewise, internal linking is like so so so under um utilized, especially on um you know, category and product-based sites, if it's an e-commerce, but even like on in sports setting or something else, you've kind of you've kind of got different team matchups, you've got different kind of personalities. So structuring the hierarchy of information with internal links and signalling to search engines where the priority pages are is really key. I know we just covered off link building, but one form of link building or link acquisition or link earning is digital PR. And that isn't as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be if you have the inspiration. And by that I mean it's a method where you create newsworthy content, newsworthy campaign ideas. It can be done in an afternoon if you have the right idea, something legitimately newsworthy, you get some legitimate journalists, you know, to follow up to cover your story, beg pleads, whatever it takes to get a meaningful link from the coverage. And for a smaller site, just a few links of that nature can make a big difference, and particularly in very competitive niches where everyone has broadly the same content. They might, if they're an affiliate, they might be talking about the same product for the same product supplier, but this is a different differentiator and can again have some of that lingering SEO benefit that Rishi mentioned earlier about the value, the you know, ongoing value of a big link.
SPEAKER_04You gotta get back to basics. Go and micro optimize your websites, affiliate or brand, go back to the basics and focus on jump links and make sure you're implementing the simple things properly. Leverage quick wins like internal linking, structure your content to search engines to see. And honestly, there was so much wisdom shared in the session. I couldn't fit it all in in this week's episode. But if you want to watch the full replays, you can do that by signing up for our newsletter on affiliateinsider.com. Just head straight down to the bottom and fill out the simple form to opt in. We'll be releasing the full content videos from everything that we shared at the Amplifier Summit really soon. So stay tuned as we deliver more invaluable insights next week. And if I add at the beginning of this episode tweaked your interest a little, go and take a look at my AMP training course. That stands for Affiliate Manager Performance Program, where you get to spend 12 whole weeks with me learning everything I know about affiliate marketing and about effective affiliate program management tactics that will help you to drive incremental sales and partnerships that last. Our next live cohort starts on the 10th of March and there are only a few seats left. Visit infineatinsider.com, hit the training button in the main menu and read more about this amazing course. Have a great week, guys. Tune in for loads more insights around amplifying your performance this year, and I look forward to speaking with you again next week. If you're listening to this podcast and wondering how the heck you missed out on Affiliate Insider's Amplifier Summit, don't worry, we'll be hosting our Innovate Summit on the 14th to the 15th of June. Simply head over to affiliateinsider.com forward slash events and click on the Elevate Summit to register now.
SPEAKER_00And that's a wrap for this week's Affiliate Insider Affiliate Marketing Podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down in the series, head on over to Apple iTunes, give us a five-star rating, and subscribe to our podcast channel so you never miss another insightful episode. Tune in next week for more digital marketing insights and traffic driving tips, tricks and strategies to keep your digital marketing fresh and your affiliate program driving consistent sales.
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