Hi, and welcome to the Affiliate Insider Podcast with me, Leanne Johnston. This is a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers. Listen up as I explore the latest digital and affiliate marketing trends and give you the insider scoop on what's occurring in affiliate marketing. Join us as we explore affiliate strategies, host expert interviews with leading affiliates and tech entrepreneurs, and discuss the latest affiliates and digital marketing trends. If you want to stay at the cutting edge of affiliate marketing, you're in the right place. Join me for this week's episode and let's get started.
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SPEAKER_05Welcome back to the Affiliate Insider Podcast. And today I'm thrilled to have three lovely ladies joining me. I'm going to start with an introduction to Jessica Wong. So, Jessica, if you can say a quick hello to our audience. Hi, Leanne.
SPEAKER_04Thanks for having me back. I'm Jess. I work as our UK publisher director for CJ, one of the global leading affiliate networks. So super thrilled to be recording this podcast with you. Thanks so much for being here.
SPEAKER_03And up to my left, I've got Sophie Haley. Hi everyone. Yes, I'm Sophie. Worked in quite a few roles in the affiliate space, but today I'm representing Global Savings Group. So we are a tech-driven shopping rewards company. And our goal is ultimately to make users ensure they're making the best purchasing decisions. So yeah, thanks for having me on. Awesome. And then last one, Madelease, the lovely Michelle.
SPEAKER_02Hi, and um, my name is Michelle Ernie, and I'm the CRM and acquisition manager at Brand Alley. So head up the affiliates program there. And Brand Alley is the largest members-only slash sales website in the UK. And we're also in France. And we obviously work really closely with CJ and GSG.
SPEAKER_05So the three of us connected back at the publisher show here in London. And we had a really interesting conversation, which we kind of wanted to explore again on the podcast. So I'm going to hit you up with a couple of questions and hope that you guys can repeat some of the things that we had at that session, which was super interesting, about how publishers and affiliates are moving into a performance-based model from kind of traditional media fixed fee tenancy deals. And I know that this is a really hot question right now, especially because I'm seeing a lot of affiliate managers trying to sort of understand how to navigate this space and do their commercial negotiations as well. And I couldn't think of three better people to have on this call because you represent a wide snapshot of both brand network, which obviously sits between that relationship and, you know, quite a large publisher yourself. So the first question that I wanted to throw to you guys is what is performance marketing and why should publishers be thinking about changing to this commercial model as a key growth area for their revenue goals this year? Maybe I'm going to kickstart that with you, Jess.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. It really is that kind of simplicity of paying for e-commerce online. So that simple call to action and just being rewarded for sales that you're actually converting on site. So just pay on e-commerce sale. That's what I say. So obviously a percentage of commission rather than having that flat fee media tenancy. So whether it's 10%, which is the baseline for a lot of content media publishers, but then it can go anywhere and vary from 0.5%, which I've been talking to some cashback publishers about, all the way through to 50% for some crazy content publishers that do drive that new customer to a brand. So yes, it's it really varies, but it's understanding the data. And because we track all the way through to the point of sale at CJ, it really is kind of going very granular to understand the different scenarios based on that consumer journey as it's constantly changing in this world that we live in.
SPEAKER_05And I think that's quite important, is that before publishers do decide to move from a fixed fee model to a performance-based model, they really do need to understand their data. And maybe Sophie, you can come in and talk a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. I I think it's a really interesting one. And I personally find this model a lot more rewarding than I think I would if we were working purely on a fixed fee, because I think obviously publisher side, arguably, we might be seen as people who are just trying to sell, sell, sell. But actually, because the CJ provides such detailed tracking, and obviously we're more incentivized on the CPA model for long-term growth and long-term partnerships, particularly with the likes of Brand Alley, we're looking at driving sales over a long period of time and doing things that we know will really work for them. So just having a really, I guess communication is the key point here, is just making sure we're really clear on what Brand Alley's KPIs are, you know, and then we can help. We've got such a wide range of products, we've got newsletters, influencer campaigns, on-site exposure, and then we've now got a new content proposition called Best Buys. So just making sure we're really getting a nice mix in line with those KPIs. And then it just does become a lot more rewarding because we're not just doing a one-off campaign that which may or may not work, but you know, we're testing, we're learning, and we're booking in a variety of different products that will help Brandally on a longer-term basis.
SPEAKER_05And Michelle, how do you feel about the performance model? Do you think it builds a better long-term relationship, like Sophie said, from a brand perspective?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, Leanne. Um I'm nodding away here as Sophie was was chatting because I completely agree with what she was saying. So for us at Brand Alley, we started working with GSG, I think, back in 2019 or maybe 2018. And the way the performance model kind of worked for us is that when we were looking at kind of our mid-tier publishers, trying to kind of work out who we could, you know, improve our relationships with and where we could kind of maximize our efforts. And GSG was one of them for us. So with the performance model, we were able to kind of, I suppose, test and learn. So we could dedicate a little bit of our budget to kind of a standard pack, see how that performed, and then build on that. And now this year, what we're doing now, and we we've we've kind of built to this point, is that we book something in every single month and we have like bespoke packages that we work with because we were able to invest these small amounts and use the data provided by CJ to kind of learn what was performing for us, where we could improve, what we could tweak, and that back and forth, the understanding of the data and the relationship between the three of us, between Brand Alley, CJ, and GSG meant that we could develop that out and grow it to you know a really rewarding point that we have for that now.
SPEAKER_05I love that. And and the key takeaway that I'm getting from this, guys, is it's not a spur-of-the-moment decision that happens. You know, when you're making this change from changing your rate cards almost to moving more into a performance-based model, it's about having a longer-term game plan in place and it's about making sure that you've got the data to support these decisions and that you're making the right decisions for your business on both sides, both the brand side and also on the publisher side. Because obviously, moving from a fixed-fee rate card is a, you know, it's a it's an opportunity to make money quickly, but it's not an opportunity to build a long-lasting relationship like you guys have in the mix that you have. So, Jessica, what about from your perspective? I mean, what are the trends that you've seen? Because I know you guys had a really great workbook that you created that that spoke about, you know, how publishers are changing to the performance model, and we will share that in in the show notes.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yeah. So um we shared the affiliate incrementality white paper. So it was a study that CJ conducted, and we had two groups. We had one group of consumers that had no idea about the affiliate performance industry. So they didn't know that the links they were clicking through to were actually tracking through to the point of purchase, right? So obviously, if they did purchase something, then that transactional data would be recorded within CJ. And then obviously, there's the other side, the control group, that do realize, you know, they are your savvy shopper. And so that they could be clicking left, right, and center for Brand Alley, and they know that obviously it's a closed user group. But if they have a new customer acquisition offer, you'll probably be like, oh, right, maybe I should definitely sign up because I'm going to get an additional 25% off or whatever that offer may be. So based on the information, we had some, you know, fantastic results where you see three key data points. The first is that that user that is actually driving through an affiliate click, they're actually spending more money. They're spending more money because we can have tech solutions that will, you know, upsell them a bundle, or they'll look at maybe they're about to leave the site and they've been distracted. And oh, right, there's a retargeting moment. So it's like, oh, don't abandon your basket now, convert, and we'll give you an extra incentive to convert and buy. And then obviously it's it's that kind of increased AOV and that increased conversion rate as well. So really kind of closing those consumers so that they can then obviously browse something else.
SPEAKER_05I think that's super important. And I want to just pause on that for a moment because I think what I want brands or affiliate managers listening to this chat, I want them to understand that partners aren't just about acquisition. You know, they're also about upsell, cross-sell, you know, retention, loyalty. So really thinking about how you work with different types of publishers, as Michelle mentioned, and creating bespoke commercial campaigns based on performance, which is a more longer tenure, is an incredibly important, you know, piece of strategy work that you need to do.
SPEAKER_04Yes, absolutely. And I think it's just that it really is going back to what Stacy said about test and learn. We had a pitch yesterday, and for a brand that had been running the same thing for six years, where I think 50% of their program was coming through cashback. And then they were like, right, we need to mix it up. We need to be more diverse. You know, publishers like GSG that really are tapping into each part of the funnel. So having the best vice, you know, really kind of building in the content along with the vouchers and the incentive partners really kind of gives that full picture of who your customer is. So then the target look like profiles based on that original customer data that you've already captured.
SPEAKER_05And I guess Sophie, from your perspective, I mean, you are going to have some tenancy placement pieces within your publisher mix. Uh maybe talk about how you make those decisions and how you kind of deal with different brands, you know, which pieces you would have kind of CPA or tenancy hybrid deals in, and then which which kinds of brands you switch over to the performance model in just so that other publishers that are listening, they can sort of understand the full processes that go behind changing to that model.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think that it ultimately comes down to the fact that affiliates isn't a quick wit, and as we've kind of mentioned. So that means that works both sides. Obviously, some brands come to us and they might say, we've got this big budget, we want to run a campaign for a week. But if the content isn't strong enough and we feel like they're not going to get the right ROI that they're looking for, then we might suggest, right, let's spread this budget over a longer time, or let's try a few different things, or let's look at also looking at a commission as well. So you're not going to be dissatisfied with the return on your investment. So particularly, I think it's all about just making sure we know what the brand wants as well, because a lot of the time we run a campaign and we think it's gone really well from our point of view. But the ROI expectations can vary so much from brand to brand, so and from sector to sector. So I think that's the key point from a publisher side is just making sure you're super clear from the outset on what the brand is actually after, and you're not going to sort of oversell and underdeliver, particularly if you're working on a fixed fee basis. I love that.
SPEAKER_05It's really, really important that you know you talk to your clients and you talk to the brands that you're working with to make sure that you're delivering the ROI and the KPIs that they need. Michelle, what about from your side, from the brand side, do you prefer working with a performance-based model with publishers, or are you happy to do kind of hybrid deals where it makes sense to do so?
SPEAKER_02I think for us, we kind of have to do the hybrid deals. Well, it it totally depends, I suppose. And just going back to basics and kind of echoing what everyone's just said, I mean, it's really important that you have you set what your goals are. So have these like clear actionable goals. And they might vary from campaign to campaign. But if you're, you know, really clear in what you're trying to achieve and the partners that you're trying to work with understand that, then you know, you can kind of figure out from there, you know, is it just a CPA increase that we need to do with this campaign? Or would a tendency work better, or what might it be? So I think you need to be open to being flexible and listening to the partners that you're working with. And like Sophie just said, you know, you could go in and go, look, we've got X amount to spend and we want to spend it this week. You need to have those good relationships to kind of understand, you know, what it is that you're trying to achieve and set out a plan that's actually going to get your objectives and your KPIs hit. So for brand Ali, and like I mentioned at the start, we're in the UK market and in the French market, but the way we operate across affiliates in those two markets is completely different. And that there was a lot of learning in that because we were quite strong in what we do on the UK side and we're trying to grow what we're doing on the French side. And originally we kind of just tried to apply the UK way of doing things to the French market and it didn't work. So we had to kind of pull everything apart and put it back together in different ways that would best serve our customer in France. So you need to be flexible essentially and kind of listen to the experts that are out there. So be that your affiliate manager in-house or on your network like CJ or the partners that you're working with, such as GSG. So yeah, you just gotta be flexible and be open to you know new opportunities where you can grow and actually achieve the KPIs that you set out to achieve.
SPEAKER_05Okay. So I heard a couple of things in there. One is, you know, kind of look at the data, which Jessica touched on. The other thing is making sure that you've got open relationships with your partners and making sure that you can create bespoke campaigns where it makes sense to do so, be a little bit flexible with your commission structures where it makes sense to do so and what you're willing to pay for different placements. And then the third thing there is obviously relationship building, having open dialogue with your publishers because they do know their customers and they know how to convert their customers, which is what Sophie was talking about as well. So just a round off on this call, though, because I think we need to talk a little bit about what some of the pitfalls are in terms of moving from a fixed fee model to a performance-based model. Where can you guys share some insights in terms of things that you've maybe experienced or or seen that have gone wrong when partners move to the performance-based model?
SPEAKER_04Everyone loves to talk about budget, and I feel like there's not enough budget allocated towards the performance channel. It always seems to be the last thought. So I would say we work with a lot of brands where we have an unlimited budget because we are looking at that data and you're only paying once a sale has been made, which would be similar to what you'd paid for a salesperson in store. Or, you know, if you walk into a car showroom and you buy a car on the forecourt, like that salesperson has already incentivized to close that sale because they'll be commissioned on that. So, yes, definitely having that unlimited budget so that we don't put a cap in place. You know, if new customer acquisition is your KPI with what Michelle was talking about and safe, then if we're driving phenomenal rates in new customer acquisition, let that be open-ended and then gather the data at the end of the campaign to then revisit your next KPI.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I love that. Michelle, Sophie, have you got anything to add on on that point from your perspective, from brand and and publisher perspective?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I actually haven't thought about this in a little while, but I used to work network side and I completely understand Jess's point and can really relate to it from a publisher standpoint as well, in terms of working on those fixed budgets. It just doesn't work in terms of creating sort of that mutually beneficial partnership. Because particularly publisher side, we've had it whereby we're performing seriously well for a brand, but obviously that takes up because of the way the CPA model works, then they're seeing their spend go up. But I think it's just understanding that that obviously is correlating to the strong numbers that we're driving. So sometimes we might get a commission cut, but we it's only because we've been performing so well for a brand, which doesn't feel fair. And then it's obviously demotivating from our side because all we've been doing is really trying our hardest to run the right products and push that brand as much as we can. But then obviously, if they're working on a fixed budget, as per a lot of the other digital channels, then that might be slightly harder to work if they're planning their budget across all channels. So yeah, I think that understanding of the CPA model and the ROI aspects needs to be taken into account more seriously, I think.
SPEAKER_04100% agree. Another thing to add as well, um, I know that I was on a pitch yesterday and we kept on saying, I know that we've been very reactive in the last couple of years, but we have to start looking at proactively planning for the year ahead, looking at those retail moments and marrying that up to, for example, your your media moments, right? And ensure that it goes back to the conversations and making sure that you're communicating to say that right, if we are promoting Mother's Day, also a Mother's Day campaign from your publisher side and also a very strong offer from the brand side to say we've got it scheduled in and now we know that that's you know, that campaign is running, we now need to plan for the next calendar moment so that we have kind of that managed and proactive planning.
SPEAKER_05And I think that's a fantastic point. And Michelle, I'm sure you're gonna agree because if we start to do proactive planning and start to place our budgets for more longer tenure terms, I think publishers will be more happy to work on a performance model or hybrid model because they know that the relationship that they have, they're not gonna have to go, you know, it's time consuming for publishers to go and negotiate commercial deals with account managers, a brand side. So, how do you feel about, you know, kind of looking at more longer-term tenure deals with publishers that you've obviously tested?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think it's really important. And as I mentioned, like this is how we developed our relationship with GSU. We started out like quite small scale and built on that. And now, as I said, like we're we are booking um nearly every month. And then when it's coming up to those key focuses, so like Black Friday is a huge one for us or Mother's Day or whatever it might be, you've got that relationship there, you've got the understanding of what we keep saying, like what the KPIs are. So, yeah, so it's just really important to keep working on that. And it's it's so core um to have that good relationship so that you know it's mutually beneficial that we're we're getting the kind of the best kind of offer that works both ways and also for for the customer that we're we're trying to attract.
SPEAKER_05So for me, it's a no-brainer. I think if there are any publishers listening to this, start thinking about implementing performance models in your in your business metrics, start having these conversations with brands to secure and build your relationships, because you know, relationships still very much count in this industry, as as Sophie and Michelle have both dictated. And obviously look at your data so that you're not making deals that aren't you know beneficial for both sides, as Michelle's just said. Any last kind of pieces of advice that we want to give our audience a parting shot with? I'll start with maybe Sophie.
SPEAKER_03I think the key takeaway, and something I'm not sure if we've touched on enough yet, is just the fact that the return from an affiliate model can be a lot higher than other models. So it's a bit of a no-brainer in terms of running this alongside your other marketing channels. But also not getting into that mentality where you're really leaning on the high ROIs of partners like us who are driving the higher ROIs and then looking for different ROIs from your different publishers. So making sure that we really are giving all the products a try. So, for example, we've launched more content solutions because for years and years we've been accused of maybe being generally slightly lower down in the purchase of journey. Off the back of that, we've spent a lot of time and resources making sure we've got a good selection of content propositions. So our best buys being the most recent launch of ours. But then I think the expectation needs to be really clear in terms of we're not going to drive the same ROIs that we did previously, but that's okay. And it still means platforms like CJ can see that full journey. So just making sure we're looking holistically at the whole picture and not just they're a discount primary publisher, so that we expect this return on investment, if that makes sense. Absolutely. And Jessica, from your side?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think my my one key word that I used as well in the publishing show is talent. I'm so glad that we had this chance to actually come together and speak together and really kind of like showcase our expertise because we have been in the industries, it is a unique industry, but you do kind of you know learn on the job. But then you realise, gosh, there is a a wealth of information out there that you really need to get your head around, whether it's GDPR, the cookie laws, you know, the changes with Google, tech innovation, and and as if you mentioned that constant, you know, re-evaluation of your product to ensure that you are being competitive within this very, very crowded marketplace. So I feel like you do need the talent. And I yeah, I really appreciate the fact that we've managed to come together and have this open conversation. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Michelle, what about from your side? Um, again, just to kind of echo what uh Sophie and Jeff have been saying, like, you know, be agile and be quite open to testing and trialing new ways of working and you know what your publishers or the different publishers your your worker can do, like listen to you know what they're offering and what kind of products they have available. And don't be afraid to try them out because you've got to test it to understand that it does kind of resonate with the type of customers that you're trying to bring to your site. And again, just bringing it back to the basics and actually quote you here, Leanne, like find your focus, understand what it is that your goal is for each campaign. I think that is just so key to have that really, really clear. And then yeah, you could just just build on that and then just talking again about having the knowledge and and the relationships, like Jess just mentioned, like there is a wealth of of information that you need to kind of learn on the job, but also what you can't kind of I suppose learn from from reading different things or understanding how the platform works is that relationship that you need with the brand or the publisher. Like that that is something that a good accountant manager just you know gets, just understands. And I think that's really key too. So just building on that relationship is so important. So I think the key thing for me there is test to optimize repeat.
SPEAKER_05Sometimes the the most complicated things have been made really simple, which is what I love doing and why I love this industry, because you are correct, we are all learning on the job and there is no right or wrong answer. So you really do need to just have open dialogue between brand and publishing and you know utilize the expertise of your networks, your tracking solutions, even agencies like us who have a depth and breadth of experience across the marketplace and are always willing to help and share. Ladies, it's been an absolute pleasure to have me on the podcast. Thank you so much for your time. It has been my pleasure to A, speak alongside you and B, have me here to share this knowledge with our community as well.
SPEAKER_01And that's a wrap for this week's Affiliate Insider Affiliate Marketing Podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down in this series, head on over to Apple iTunes and give us a five-star rating and subscribe to our podcast channel so you never miss another insightful episode. Tune in next week for more digital marketing insights and traffic driving tips, tricks, and strategies to keep your digital marketing fresh and your affiliate program driving consistent sales. Making a high-quality podcast like this takes a lot of work. That's a fact. But not when you hire COPUS. With our White Glove experience, we handle everything for you. From guest outreach all the way through to publishing and promotion. We handle it all. You show up to hold great interviews and build relationships with your guests, and we take care of everything else. Podcasting is not just about the audience. Every podcast interview is the start of a new relationship. With a weekly podcast, you would build relationships with 52 ideal partners or prospects through your podcast interviews over the next 12 months. Do you believe that 52 new relationships would grow your business? We do. Contact Jason at Copus K O P U S dot com and let's talk about the