Welcome to the affiliate marketing podcast with Mealy Ann Johnston. And today I am absolutely thrilled to have Stephen Brown from Moonpool, who I believe is a little bit of affiliate royalty in our industry, joining me today to talk a little bit about the state of the nation, affiliate marketing in the trenches, and what he's doing with Moonpool to help us elevate our performance moving forward. Hi, Stephen. How are you?
SPEAKER_00Great, thank you. And it's lovely to be joining you. So thank you very much for the invitation.
SPEAKER_03Thanks so much for being on the podcast today. So let's start at the beginning. And I know the beginning is quite a ways back because I remember hearing about you and what you were doing in the affiliate space when I first started, which was almost 20 years ago now. But tell us a little bit about your rich history in the affiliate marketing industry and your career history and what you're doing with Moonpool today.
SPEAKER_00Right, there's a lot there. I know. So I'll I'll start with the start of the Biyat journey. Biyat started as a network in about 2000, early 2000, and we weren't the first. So CJ had just come to the UK.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I remember that.
SPEAKER_00There's a debate about whether Biat or A-Win was one of the first UK networks. There's networks like DGM existed in the UK, but we weren't funded like CJ and the rest. So we had to develop a niche. The founding team at Biat, there was Richard Armitage, there was myself, there was my brother, and we then very quickly had Paul Fellows and Malcolm Cowley, who are better known today for their role in performance horizon and became partnerized. And when we looked at what an affiliate network needed, there's concepts that are hard to believe today that existed back in 2000. So the networks in 2000 had the concept that advertisers or merchants as they were then were not allowed to communicate or even know who their publishers were. So if you were an advertiser and you went into the interface and looked at where your traffic was coming from, you had absolutely no idea. But equally, you had no ability to form relationships to grow traffic. Yeah, and I mean it's incredible in today's world to think like that. And I'd come from working as an accountant at uh KPMG, where one of my clients was BMW. And I had this picture of going into the marketing director's office at BMW and saying, Well, we've delivered you some sales, but we're not going to tell you where they're from. And you'd have your contract terminator, you'd be kicked out of the room, and he'd say, I've got a brand to manage. Are you telling me I don't know what's happening downstream? Yeah. And so it was just nonsense that that could continue.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I remember those days.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So we we made the brave decision to let advertisers be in contact with publishers, which also meant that we made the brave decision that we had to know that we were adding value as a network in that relationship because otherwise they would just go direct.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We had to add value. So we had to then add technical innovation and we had to add commercial innovation as well. And so that that was part of the buyout journey was thinking about those things.
SPEAKER_03And I want to just pause there quickly because a lot of people listening to this podcast are three or four years into their affiliate marketing career, their journey. They know what they know today. But I just want to kind of like make it clear that back in those days, we were working as account managers, as program managers, as market digital marketers. We were working blind and literally like flying by the seat of my pants, using technology that had only just come to market, formulating relationships. I mean, the world was a very different place in affiliate marketing program management than what it is today. So I just want to kind of make that a really key point for people listening to this podcast. That Byet was one of the, you know, forefounders of my career when I started. I mean, like everybody was using Bad was like the new big thing that had come to the market. And I remembered those days and I want to share those stories because understanding where we are now and the complex data systems and and things that we have to work with, and we're going to talk a little bit about that um in a moment. I just I kind of just wanted to, because you you say it very plainly, but I just I want to make sure that people listening to this podcast really understand what it was like back then.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think to emphasize that, Google had barely started. Amazon was probably still just books, or it might have added CDs or DVDs. Um Facebook wasn't in existence then. So it was really a completely different world to the one today. And I mean things that we weren't necessarily the first, but we were certainly towards the first, was allowing publishers to put click references on their affiliate links, yeah, so they knew what part of their traffic was delivering sales. Yeah, because it wasn't just advertisers flying blind, the publishers were yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so you had other things that we we introduced was server tracking, which in some ways is today's next big thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But actually, it was easier to introduce server-to-server tracking in 2003 than it is today, because the the processes within tech teams were were far simpler. You know, the the person coding it would go to their e-commerce manager and they'd say, Yeah, put it live.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Whereas today the sign-off process to to get server-side code is quite significant, which is why the JavaScript tags exist as an easier way for first-party cookies to be set.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And again, we go back, first-party cookies, you know, they didn't exist in 2003, but they didn't need to exist in 2003.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because the world was a very different place back then. From that, you know, stellar journey of you know, creating Biyat, building it into one of the most successful affiliate networks of its time. What happened then?
SPEAKER_00So we built Buy At. We had a bit of buy at that most of the team loved, and I still loved the concept of, which was the charity cashback sites. And sadly, when we sold Biat to AOL, which obviously we were happy to do so, we wanted to see that part of the business grow and grow and grow. But the reality is an affiliate network has to focus on its core knitting. And running a cashback affiliate was not a core thing for the network. And I was pleased to see that the Biat Charity Arm ended up as part of easy fundraising in about 2010. And indeed, I then ended up on the board helping with easy fundraising for a few years. So I was very pleased to join that circle of seeing affiliate marketing giving much-needed funds back to community groups where easy fundraising thrives. The US doesn't quite have the same model of charity cashback. Obviously, cashback is big, but not necessarily charity cashback. So easy fundraising is probably the biggest one worldwide.
SPEAKER_03It's amazing. And after that journey, what's led you up to Moonpool today?
SPEAKER_00I mean, what Moonpool does is we look at the journey of a user from a publisher's site through to landing on the advertiser site and whether the environment is set up properly for a commission to be properly attributed if that user goes on to buy. So what led up to me wanting to do that? Well, I'd worked at a network, I'd run the network. I knew that actually keeping tracking working is an art and a science. An art because you have to design it, a science because you have to rigorously apply it. And I knew that some advertisers are better than others at doing it. And the anecdotal story I tell, which is what I think is sort of half true, is we had a techie at Biat whose sole job was to keep our largest clients tracking working. They were interested in innovation to deliver new sales, so they would tinker with things overnight and we'd go, Oh God, what have they done? Yeah. And we had to keep their tracking working during the daytime. So that's part of it. I also being working with publishers, so I've also worked with UK web media in the UK, but especially working with a cashback publisher, you do see the untracked sales queries coming through.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you actually almost better than anybody else, you have an understanding of the number of sales that are going untracked. I then I mentioned I was a KPMG. The accountant in me says, well, actually, people can anecdotally say 5% of my sales don't track. Well, whether that's true or not, you've got at one end of the spectrum advertisers where it's 0.00, 1% don't track, and advertisers where it might be 30%. So if I was a publisher, I'd like to know are my advertisers in the good end of that spectrum or are they in the poor end of that spectrum? And I might drop the ones that's at the poor end of that spectrum. And so lo and behold, all of a sudden my untracked sales problem goes down from 5% to 1%. And that actually has a massive impact on the bottom line for a publisher, because that's revenue off the top line that you're not receiving. So that is actually cash in the pocket of the business. And so if you're making a 5% net margin, that's almost doubling your profit by being more diligent on understanding which sales track and which ones don't.
SPEAKER_03That's a key thing because everybody focuses on relationship management, on recruitment. But actually, if you if you're talking about these numbers right now, just making sure that your tracking is actually working as it should, and we will talk a little bit about attribution as well, because we are going to cover that too. But I mean, that's a huge amount of money for doing very little work other than looking at the data.
SPEAKER_00It's a huge amount of money. I might challenge thee for very little work. Okay. So I mean, the first thing to emphasize is of all the networks in the MoonCool platform, yeah, if their tracking is implemented well, it works well. So this is not a network technology problem. What happens is, and I pity the CMOs and advertisers, that they've got the law bagging down on them, saying this is what cookie consent needs to look like, this is what GDPR requirements are. They might have someone telling them that if you get GDPR wrong, we're going to be fined 4% of our turnover. So you've got to be really careful there. Then they've got the challenge of delivering the sales for that business. There's no point having a marketing department that is so squeaky clean that actually it doesn't deliver any sales because the business doesn't thrive. So they've got that challenge. And then they've actually got competing channels. So paid search is an important channel, display is an important channel, direct partnerships, and then, of course, you you've got affiliate and other things in the mix. And they've got to have all of those working simultaneously. They quite reasonably want to do some de-duping. Of course. And so they then put technology in to do the de-duping, and they've then got all of these compromises, all of these challenges. They then have the likes of Apple's three, four-year journey with ITP and essentially stopping third-party cookies working for affiliate marketing, putting restrictions on some first-party ones as well.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then you've now got Chrome coming along and saying we may drop third-party cookies and we may not, and playing a game with the regulators on are they going to do it? When are they going to do it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And what is the outcome on if they do do it? Because I think we're still having that discussion in the industry, is what do we actually need to do if that happens? So all of a sudden your data becomes even more important, and understanding where things are breaking or where things are falling down or where things aren't working in your favor becomes incredibly important.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I think the knowledge and the awareness is key. So I mean, we've got two big competing things that are affecting the ability to track playing out. We've got the deprecation of third-party cookies, we've also got the consent environment, which is ultimately driven by legislation but being implemented by consent management platforms like OneTrust. And I mean, if I if I'm a publisher and I'm actually constructing a newsletter to send out by email, I would be thinking, does my audience have a high propensity to use iPhones? Does my audience therefore have a high propensity to use Safari as their preferred browser? So if they click out from that email, are they going to go into a Safari Apple environment where third-party cookies don't work? So I would then say, well, actually, I'm going to favor merchants who have high-quality first-party tracking for my newsletter. And I think that's a commercial decision that I don't see enough publishers making, but I feel that they they should be.
SPEAKER_03But you see, it's because money still talks. He who pays the most gets the traffic. And actually, you're right, it shouldn't be just about finance, it should also be about conversion. And it should also be about what is the propensity for that conversion, which is what you're saying now.
SPEAKER_00You've got finance in the short term, which is does it track what's the commission rate? You've got finance in the long term, which is what's my relationship as a publisher with this advertiser. And actually, if we want a long-term relationship together, the tracking doesn't have to be perfect, but we have to understand where it works and where it doesn't. So we can sort of work on the good and ignore the less good. And I'm an analogy I've never really used before. But if you've got 500 retail shops across the UK, you know some are better for you than others, and ultimately you'll shutter up some of them after a while. You know, this high street doesn't work. You know, it's no big deal. You just you focus on the good and you you you minimize the less good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. So we've spoken a little bit about the problem that there is tracking and that it's not always accurate and it's not always set up accurately. And that's not really a network issue. It's more from the CMO side, from the brand side in terms of how they're managing all of their other data and acquisition channels. But what's actually led us to this problem in the industry? Like, is it the fact that networks don't direct clients properly? Is it the fact that clients don't have experienced staff? Is it the fact that we just don't know how to manage attribution properly in our space yet?
SPEAKER_00The attribution is a different thing. Why is there a little more suboptimal tracking than one might wish for? I think online has just grown very, very quickly. And when you look at how many sales go through a company's website and how many of those sales are through the affiliate channel, how many are through other channels? I mean, I I think CMOs and CTOs, and therefore everyone who works within their teams, they're hard-working people challenged by lots of competing interests.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And I I just feel sometimes things get dropped, and affiliate tracking is a hard thing to understand. I mean, if you're an affiliate manager, you haven't been recruited for your ability to pick apart tracking to understand is the JavaScript tag correctly positioned in the DOM on all pages of your employer's website. That's not your gig, and nor should it be. And I think that it's about how the teams at the advertisers work together within their pressures to make affiliate marketing always really part of the thought process when they do updates, when they do changes. And I guess there's an element of the industry could educate its advertisers a little bit better. But it's a reflection of an industry that's growing 15% year on year, probably for 20 years. That becomes hard.
SPEAKER_03Well, we need to have tools, systems, and people like you who have been there since the beginning to actually help spearhead that and move that forward. So I guess that leads me to my next question. Is that why you've taken it upon yourself to develop a tool that can help fix this?
SPEAKER_00It is. I mean, it's I it's been an issue that's been burning away at me for probably about 10 years, thinking publishers need to understand which links really work. And then I didn't actually realize so much that advertisers need to delve into what they're doing more deeply. And I must admit, the tracking environment is more complicated than I realized when I started the Moonpool journey. So when we get the whiteboard out and we we sketch end-to-end the variations on tracking, I mean it just absolutely blows people's minds. Even you know, techies have been in the industry for 10 years, they go really. I never realized there were so many subtleties on how affiliate tracking is implemented. Because whilst there's a lot of correlation between how networks work, the networks are different to some of those who do the naked tracking, and they're they set the first-party cookies differently, they sometimes store parameters differently. So it isn't easy for someone whose core job is looking at tracking to understand how tracking works.
SPEAKER_03And there's also a need to marry the creative side, as you said earlier, the bits that the marketing team is paid to do to go and you know get those new customers seeing the brand and conversing with the brand and converting with the brand. And then the bit that the technical team has to do to help make that happen. And maybe there is a little bit more of an education piece that needs to happen internally on the brand side to make those two teams work a little bit closer together.
SPEAKER_00Yes, one area we see that happening is with deep links. So a deep link almost invariably has a number of redirects, certainly for large advertisers, before you get to the page for that pair of shoes, for instance, at the retailer. So that gives a propensity for a parameter to be lost in the URL path. It also gives a propensity for any tag or any JavaScript to not be called at the expected time. And that's then further complicated that let's say it's a grape of stock. What does the advertiser then do? They could serve a 404, awful user experience, but some 404s actually have the tracking in them. So if the user then goes and home page and then continues the journey, the publisher is likely to be rewarded. Other advertisers, when an item is out of stock, do a smart redirect. The blue shoes aren't in stock, but you know what? We've done a mapping and we'll we'll serve you the navy shoes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that's better for the user experience, but that redirect might be one where the advertiser hasn't quite coded the affiliate tracking side of it well. So the user goes on and buys the shoes, the advertiser's happy, the publisher less so.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. And those are things that need to be considered, and some affiliate managers aren't even looking at that. They're not even understanding how they can improve those, you know, buyer journeys and upsell mechanics. And I know that there's a lot of marketing tech, you know, that support these mechanisms, but I think that is the complexity of our industry, is that there are all of these different technologies that sit on top of and layer on top of one another, and there is room for things to drop and things to stop or things to break in the customer flow. And that's really what Moonpool's trying to help with, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I think that we're definitely trying to help all parties perform better together. So we we want publishers to have a mature relationship with networks, we want networks to have a mature relationship with advertisers. And one of the things that is inherent in the platform is we don't just say this advertiser looks to have compromised tracking. We actually say a reason for it. So one of the reasons might be the network's JavaScript tag is not being called in the DOM. And that doesn't mean a lot to many people. But if that's passed up the chain to the advertiser, they could go, Oh, I understand what you're asking me to check. And it's a lot easier to spot a problem if. You're being asked to check something, then the more vague someone somewhere has complained that the tracking might not be working. So we're very focused on giving explanations that hopefully expedite the fixes to issues.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that's everybody's new best friend, as far as I'm concerned, the affiliate space. But let's talk about because I know you're going to be joining us at our Elevate Summit on the 14th and 15th of June, and we do have a panel talking about the kind of marketing tech that we need to be looking at to elevate our performance in affiliate marketing. But what are one of the reasons why you're coming to this event and sharing some of the knowledge and insight that you've gathered over the last 20 odd years in the industry?
SPEAKER_00I always like events, and I think the Elevate event is a very interesting one because it brings people together, as you say, from different stages in their affiliate journey. And I love listening to people who have experience and other facets of it to further my knowledge, to further my understanding of where affiliate marketing might be going. Because if you're running a network or if you're running, in my case, a tech provider, you've got to have some sort of view on where it's going to do the strategy of your business. So I can listen to people who have been in the industry for a long time. I can listen to people who have come into the industry from outside the industry who can bring good ideas that we might then need to adopt. I can then learn how best practice is being employed, and also not best practice to understand how the nuts and bolts of the industry work. So there's always things you can learn, how different advertisers might process reversals, for instance. There might just be a shift in best practice with regards to that, or there's so much you can learn by just listening to people talking to them. Different retailers from different sectors behave differently. So if affiliate marketing is doing a little bit more in finance, you can learn about how to finance industry needs. And then all of a sudden, someone tells you about oh, the FCA have made affiliate marketing easier or they've made it harder. And there's so much you can learn from just listening and being with others, and that's why Elevate is a great event.
SPEAKER_03I'm really excited to have you there, and I'm really excited to have all of our speakers there because that is the thing that really drives Elevate and Affiliate Insider Forward is to help people to understand what's happening in this industry, because it is an industry where you do need to continuously self-develop and learn in order to keep abreast of what's happening. It's not like our industry doesn't sit still, as you've said, and you've been in it as long as what I have to understand that. And even you are continuing your learning journey. So I'm really, really excited to have you there. But let's talk a little bit about the future of affiliate marketing. If we had a crystal ball, you know, where do you think things might be headed, considering what you've known about the past and where we are right now?
SPEAKER_00I think it's a really challenging question for me. We've obviously got some of the larger players, the more prominent players being more partner networks as opposed to out and out affiliate networks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So two obvious ones to name are you know, you've got impact and you've got partnerize, who are incredibly well funded by PE companies. And they're they're playing the the long game of they want to be truly international, being able to serve a Samsung, an Apple, a Dell in 50 or more territories. And that that's different to being a niche country affiliate network doing niche country affiliate networking. So you've got so you've got the partner players, then you've got uh the the Ractons, the CJs, the A Wins who are incredibly uh large compared to some of the other players. I mean, AWIN's market share is is staggering still in the UK, and you know it's still very high in Europe, and they have a very, very good place in maturing affiliate marketing and where it's going. And it's you will the likes of AWIN and the partner networks, will they converge? Will they uh actually find innovation to diverge? I mean, AWIN they bought single view probably about 12 months, 18 months ago. That is in my mind, I've not spoken to anyone at AWIN about it, but mine when I look at that, that's part of understanding the customer journey. And therefore, it's very much about how at the end of the day, even if you don't do attribution, it's about seeing the value of the different partners in the journey. And if I was a CMO, you know, that that is something I absolutely would like to understand. That you've got different sorts of publishers. There's no reason why different publishers should be paid the same commission because they add different value. And I think that if I wanted to drive something forward, I'd like to understand where the value is in the chain. So I think that's a very strong thought process. But I know the partner channels equally have their own technologies for doing that. So attribution is an interesting one. I think overcoming technical hurdles is another one. I think serving international clients is a really important thing for the networks because clients typically think they have their websites that they want to be the same worldwide. I mean, as a MoonPool example, we've seen clients who have consent processes that appear in some territories and not others. And it's on this the same core domain name, it's behind the scenes that they're determining the user experience to quite a granular level.
SPEAKER_03And I think that's that's a key point, is that we're moving away from one size fits all approaches and affiliate programs in terms of even in terms of commercials, because you're right, our partner publishers are diverse. They are sending traffic from lots of different places, they are playing a part in every single phase of their bioawareness journey. And we need to have the tools and the tech to move our strategies forward in order to match all of those different like segments. So I think that's quite an interesting viewpoint, actually. The fact that we want to move away from having this is our standard affiliate offering. It's this CPA or this revenue share, whatever the case may be, but actually getting more into kind of partner modeling and performance modeling, which is a little bit about looking at the outcomes and what it is that you want to achieve in your KPIs as well. Now, hindsight is an amazing thing, and I'm gonna throw you this last parting shot because I mean, you know, you've been in the industry a very long time, but with so many years behind you in this industry and all the changes you've seen and witnessed and the changes that you are looking to implement that will come. If we could go back to the beginning, what would you have liked to have seen being done differently than to now? Like if you could replay the last 20 years, what what's the one thing that you would have liked to have seen, you know, either spearheaded or moved forward quicker or thought about then instead of now? It's a big question.
SPEAKER_00Strikey, that is a big question. So when you asked me to look back and say, should things have been done differently, I mean it puts a smile on my face because there's lots of times where we had a lot of fun where we were competitors, but we were fun competitors. So I mean, buying out we wanted to serve the the larger corporates. And you know, if we got an incoming inquiry from a small advertiser, we'd quite unashamedly for our own purposes, we'd we'd recommend CJ to them and say, but equally we'd get uh the odd phone call and it would say, blah de blah from CJ is recommended I give you a call, and we'd immediately know that was probably not an advertiser that was core to us. So I I think there's still a lot of fun in the industry, and it's it's interesting bringing uh new employees on at Moonpool. I think they they see the warmth between competitors, uh, and I think that's nice to see. So I think it's still it's a nice industry to work in, and I think we we need to maintain that. Is there anything I'd like to have seen done differently? Not massively. I think the industry probably had its three, four, five years of fraud that was a little higher than one should be proud of.
SPEAKER_03I can think that it would have been great, you know, instead of the legacy that we still have today, where some people still think that affiliate marketing is you know, fraud and spam and all of those wonderful things, but it's not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm not even gonna do the people who've been in the industry will know long enough. You and I are both avoiding the phrase and naming the company where there was one one comment that lasted for five years, ten years to that denigrated the industry. And I I think that affiliates got beyond that, and I think it was a shame that that happened. That that that happened, and there was a little bit too much you know, black hat behavior if you take a term from the SEO industry. I think that perhaps the networks could have been more diligent on on managing dubious traffic. I remember at Buyout publishers would complain to us that we were still paying them by check. And I said there was a reason for that. I didn't enjoy sitting down and authorizing a thousand checks on the last Friday of the month.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I'll tell you what, it was amazing fraud prevention because the moment I saw any publisher earning more than £20 a month, I'd say, Who's this? And you know, it actually, if we nipped it in the butt at the small level, we didn't have larger publishers doing horrible things like cookie stuffing within the bio network. I I think we could have been the industry's probably a little complacent for a while, but I think it's it's got its it's got its act together and it's you know it's thriving.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I I and I remember those days, and I think you're right. I mean, we didn't know what we were dealing with half the time because we didn't have the data that we had right now. So so often stuff like that happened and it was only caught much later on. You know, we didn't understand what was best practice because we were building the plane and flying it at the same time. So I think the industry has come a long way since then, and I agree with you. I think I would have loved to have seen that due diligence, that best practice, that I don't know, whatever, rules and regulations, you know, compliance, all of that stuff come to the fore a little bit sooner. But honestly, we didn't know what we didn't know back then. But you're right, the industry has changed much, much, much since then. And any brand that might be listening to this podcast, if you're not working in performance and affiliate marketing, you're missing a trick. You need to get your act together and get into this space.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I'm sorry that we've actually ended up on that slightly negative note because actually, it is you just reiterated, it's the industry is still probably the best driver of value online. And perhaps actually that's a more positive thing to end on, is when you actually get in front of CMOs and they're candid. You know, they say, Oh, affiliate marketing, such great value for money, and that's great to hear, and that means it's got longevity. The affiliate industry's got to just still battle against the TV and display ad mentality, which is it's a lot easier to splurge three million quid on a TV campaign than it is on performance marketing, because the TV campaign, someone says, Well, what was the benefit? Well, didn't we get that lovely ad in the middle, middle of Coronation Street? And the question then for well, how did the three million on affiliate marketing go? Well, we sold a hundred thousand items. Well, you're expecting 110,000 items to be sold, you know. Was it good or not? And actually, hang on a minute, that's 100,000 items you know about. What's the genuine delivery from TV or display? It's so much harder to be accountable for. And actually, so perhaps affiliate marketing is sometimes held back by its accountability.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Um but it's it's accountability is what's going to be its success, and it's what the big networks are succeeding in getting their clients to understand.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Well, it's been such a pleasure for me to have you on this podcast today. You have shared so many insights on how tracking can improve your bottom line. We wish you all the very best with Moonpool. We cannot wait to see you at the Elevate Summit in less than six weeks' time. It's just been an absolute pleasure to have you here with me today, sharing all of this insight. So thank you very much for being on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much.