Welcome to this week's affiliate marketing podcast with me, Leanne Johnston, founder of Affiliate Insider. I'm absolutely thrilled to have somebody very special on my podcast with me today, the general manager of Diablo Media, Susanna Rayburn. Hi, Susanna. It's absolute pleasure to have you here.
SPEAKER_04Hi, Leanne. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_03Now we're going to be talking about something quite interesting. We're going to be talking about the great resignation that sort of happened in the affiliate marketing industry. And I know when you and I chatted, we were talking about this as a phenomenon that's happened recently and how it's impacted resourcing for heads of affiliates and general managers such as yourself. So before we get started, let's get you properly introduced. So tell us a little bit about your role at Diablo Media and how you came to be in affiliate marketing. And then we'll get into the nitty-gritty of the topic for the day. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04So I've been with Diablo for nine years, starting out as the CEO's assistant and then moving across all sorts of departments and roles. And most recently for the past year, I have found myself managing the affiliate team, which is very exciting and been very enjoyable.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Now let's talk a little bit about working remotely, because that has been on the topic of many affiliate managers' minds, especially after coming out of the pandemic. It's a very hot topic right now in the affiliate industry because a lot of businesses have actually thought about whether they do or don't bring people back into the office. And also how do we effectively manage and resource our teams, you know, using talent from around the world. So how has Diablo approached this request from staff to minimize the great resignation that seems to be taking place around the globe?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. You know, I actually heard it called the Great Reshuffle recently. And I thought that that was very applicable to our industry in particular, because people are just shuffling to the next similar company. And so I that really resonated with me. So I've been calling it in my head the Great Reshuffle. Yeah. But our journey with working remotely started back in March 2020 with going home to flatten the curve for two weeks. Before that, we were in our office, our culture was based around our office. We always had one or two, maybe three employees that work throughout the country, but our core group of employees was always in Denver, Colorado, in our office. We had a beautiful office in the coolest neighborhood in Denver. It had street art on the top outside that was done by a famous street artist in Denver. And so we were really based in that culture of in-office. So, you know, fast forward, we're we're home for two weeks, and then two weeks turns into two months, and two months turns into four months. And what are we going to do next? What is the future of this? And we started realizing we were doing a really good job at working from home. The team was efficient, the team was hitting all of their KPIs, all their goals, and we wanted to know what they wanted to do. So we ended up surveying the employees multiple times throughout the quarantine and work from home. What we found was no one wanted to go back to the office full time, not a single person. A couple of people said they'd really love to go in one or two days a week, maybe, but they didn't want certain days, they didn't want certain hours really flexible based upon whatever was going on either that week or even that morning. And so with that information, the owners decided we don't need to keep this 8,000 square foot building and they decided to sell it. So we decided that, all right, we're jumping into this, working remotely full time. But we still wanted to have flexibility for those people who wanted a place to collaborate, who wanted a place to leave their homes, to focus. Not everybody has their own at home office. Everybody's working situation is different. So we wanted to give them that. We rented out a suite in a co-working space, fancy stand-up desks, huge monitors. We brought all of our artwork from the building and put it in there. Our artwork was very special to us. All the employees designed and created all of the artwork in our office. And so that was really important to us to have that in our co-working space too. So now we have this hybrid situation that we have a space where people can go to, but you don't have to go there if you don't want to. So it's it's totally by choice. But what we realized that really wasn't enough. That wasn't enough to set us apart to protect us from the great shuffle, because a lot of affiliate marketing companies are also working remotely right now. So leadership came to the managers and said, we want to test out a four-day work week. And that happened in August.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, this is what the nuts and bolts of what we wanted to talk about. Because first of all, finding good talent in the affiliate space is difficult enough. Okay. Because it's such a new industry. It's very difficult to find, you know, people that really understand what an account manager role is, how diverse it is, how complex it has to be, all the skill sets that are required, because it's not just about customer support and sales. There's a whole bunch of stuff in between that. That's also part of the job. And so retaining talent in, you know, bigger affiliate companies has always been a problem because you know you can be an affiliate account manager for two years and you know you're in demand because you've got two years experience. So retaining staff is incredibly important. And I think a lot of companies are still struggling with what you have already succumbed to move on to this four-day work week, which we're going to talk about in a minute. But you know, still I'm hearing about companies that are, you know, forcing account managers to come into work when actually we work in an industry that doesn't require that, and you guys actually decided that already. And that that was why I wanted to get you on this podcast was to talk about this ethos of how you went from, you know, working in a really great office and having a culture in your office to then managing the work from home space and still managing your entire business remotely. And I mean, Diablo Media is a pretty big, you know, affiliate network. And then also going that step further to retain your staff and actually move to this four-day work week, which I mean, I just think is fantastic. So talk to us a little bit about how moving to this four-day work week has worked out for you because let's share with people, you know, the the management success that you guys are experiencing by managing your team and giving them this flexibility.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. You know, we all know it's no secret that working in the affiliate industry is not a nine to five job. It is all hours. And so I think that that's what makes it conducive to this four-day work week because everybody has to be looking at their phones and computers all hours, weekends, every day. And so what this actually enabled us to do is to be able to have that Friday in which we aren't having meetings, we aren't having any sort of necessity. And so all they have to do is keep a pulse on what they're already keeping a pulse on. And we've found that it it actually they're more willing to answer a 9 p.m. message because they've had time to rejuvenate. Yeah. And so really our industry, more than maybe any other, is really conducive to this structure.
SPEAKER_03So, what happened when management went to the leadership and said, we want to take this a step further? Like we can see that our team are performing, they are, you know, delivering to our KPIs, our clients are happy, our publishers are happy. We want to move to a four-day work week. What was the initial reaction? Like, break it down. Like, how did you actually get this right? Because I'm pretty sure a lot of people listening to this podcast are going to want to follow the same method, or at least try in the companies that it makes sense to do so. Like, how did the decision-making process happen? Was it quick? What, you know, did you have to talk through the plan? Like, did you decide that Friday was the day? Or like how how did all of that work out for you guys?
SPEAKER_04It was decided Friday was the day so that we would all be off the same day. Part of what we've been finding is that it's really important to have cohesive core hours with remote people working in different time zones. Still, we have this set core of hours so that we know when we can contact everybody. And so what we didn't want is some people taking a Monday off, but the rest of us working and then feeling like we needed to contact them. And then are they really getting that day off? So it is everybody Friday off. When the leadership came to us, all the department heads had to give a plan saying how are we going to manage this? How are we going to make sure that we are still hitting all of our goals, we're still being productive, you know, revenue and gross profit are still being met. And luckily for me, I'm the sales team. And so we are already reporting on all of that. We have tools in place. So I felt like, wow, I'm actually, this is easier for me than any of the other department heads. We're reporting on everything. Everything is very visible for us. For accounting, tech, in-house marketing, that's a little bit different because they don't have the visible numbers to show whether or not success. For us, a project management tool was essential. And I would say any project management tool, but for us, our MVP is Monday.com. And that's really allowed us to have visibility into what are our campaign techs doing? Where are they at? Where is marketing at? Where is accounting at? Where is a tech at with certain projects? And so if somebody does wake up on a Friday and go, oh my goodness, where is this? They can look at Monday and look and see where the progress is rather than slacking somebody. So that really is the tool that I believe is an MVP and a necessity to be successful.
SPEAKER_03So everybody agreed to the Friday. So that was a unanimous decision. Because I mean, I've been in companies where they're like, no, I want the Monday, no, I want the Friday. So there was, there was no ifs, ands, or buts about it. That was one of the cool things that you had to get right, is that everybody's off at the same time. There's obviously the culture of I have to get my work done in four days. So how did you overcome that stress of people going, well, actually, I'd actually prefer to work at a slower pace and get my work done in in five days and have my weekend truly free. Like, how did you get over dealing with that? Or was it a unanimous decision in the business?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we needed to look at our efficiencies. We needed to look at meeting schedules. We need to say, are is everything we're doing necessary? And so that was one of the first things is really looking at how efficient we were being in everything that we were doing. Was there things we could automate? Was there meetings we could cancel or change the cadence? So rather than weekly, we do it every other week or once a month. And that was step number one, really decreasing inefficiencies. You know, we don't say you can't work on Friday. You're allowed to work on Friday if you want. And in fact, like if numbers are down or if we have a big project, we do say, hey, this would probably be a good Friday to work.
SPEAKER_03It's about being like responsible. Everybody has a stake in the business, everybody's being an adult about their job. Now, how did you manage that for some of the younger members of the team? Because remote working, I mean, I've been doing it for 14 years, and my business is remote. You know, we've got people all over the world as well, but we do hire a certain level of person that has experience that knows how to manage themselves. Like, how does this work for like grads coming into the how do you manage that in your team?
SPEAKER_04You know, this started out as a test. And so a lot of it was we need to prove that we can do this or it won't last. Because of that, everybody put their best foot forward. Everybody wanted to make sure that they were producing at a high level, that they were really being so efficient Monday through Thursday that this would be something that we proved that we could do that would be successful, that we wouldn't lose. And so I think that that was really helpful, not to say it was a test and to say, like, we really need to do this right, or else it might go away. Nobody wants to lose it. So everybody is working so efficiently and so effectively. They're collaborating more. They're you know, some of the positive things, like it just feels an air of calm in the office. We're still high energy and we're still high producing, but it's more of this calm energy rather than a chaotic energy. And it's really phenomenal to experience that.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm so happy that you wanted to share this with us because I mean it is a success story. It's about how businesses adapted to the changes that are happening behind us. And in the affiliate space, you know, we can because we are an online, you know, predominantly online industry. And I mean, you spoke a little bit about the challenges, about the fact that you had to first clean up, you had to kind of reduce the unnecessary meetings, you had to get a platform in place that everybody was effectively using 100% of that platform's capabilities, which is Monday.com. You had to, you know, think about what is the positive positive results of change. So the lower stress levels, the flexibility to, you know, you've got kids to go to your kids' school meets and things, the fact that everybody is responsible for managing their time and giving your employees that trust to still deliver on client demands and publisher demand. You know, what are some of the positive things that have happened in your business since this change has happened? Are you really seeing revenues increase, you know, year on year? I don't know how long it's been since you've been doing this. But is there actually a physical like change other than just the feel of the business and the feel of the team and the team interaction? What's the kind of nuts and bolts results of this?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. So we did start this in late August of 2021. And as of right now, we are at 99% of our business plan for the entire company. So we're hitting our numbers. And so that is a proven test that we really are able to accomplish the same amount in four days that we were in five. And it is really because we took a look at everything. We there's no more room for being not organized. So our organizational skills, everybody's have increased. And that's really a skill that then they can take to if they leave Diablo, I hope they don't, but if somebody leaves they've learned something, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that's a skill that is pretty new in the in the marketplace. And that is how most businesses are now struggling to kind of overcome this. And it's just not possible for us to retain staff always by giving, you know, a high salary increase. But things like this, case studies like this that you're sharing with us, they are ways that that you know, heads of departments can retain their talent, can, you know, keep their people happy, can offer alternative solutions that fit with lifestyle still. Because I still believe that working in this industry, we're quite privileged. You know, we do have a certain lifestyle that we can live, you know, while we're on the go because we are online 24-7 everywhere, you know, as long as you've got a phone and a laptop and an internet connection, you're good to go. You can work from anywhere. And we do see a lot of younger people entering this industry because they want to be able to travel, they want to be able to work remotely and still earn a living and and build a really successful career. What additional tasks or processes, you know, you spoke about Monday.com, but what else did you have to put in place in order to make this change happen over the last 18 months? You know, what sort of training programs have you had to implement that you maybe didn't have before, especially with the younger people coming into the group?
SPEAKER_04I wouldn't say we needed to implement anything additionally other than really enforcing the Monday.com. Yeah. But what is really important to me is we have a 15-minute stand-up meeting every day. And so because I want everybody to look at everybody's smiling faces first thing in the morning, have a touch base, see everybody's happy, and then disperse to do whatever happens the rest of the day. But that I've found is really helpful in maintaining the culture. So going back to not being in the office, how do we maintain that culture and how do we maintain it in a four-day work week is have that touch to base every morning. And it's only 15 minutes, but that really is our only meeting that I schedule each week. And so that's every day for 15 minutes. And so that has been really helpful into maintaining the culture, maintaining the teamwork and collaboration and keeping everybody in the loop of everything else. And so I think that makes it feel like we are having face-to-face when we're only really working together for four days. Other than that, they're really, it was really easy. I don't want to tell everybody this because I don't necessarily want everybody else to do this. Um, but it was a really easy transition, uh, easier than I think any of us had ever imagined when we got into it.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's simply because you had the buy-in, you had the buy-in of the stuff to actually support this initiative. And everybody wanted to have the extra time off. I mean, who doesn't, right? I mean, we've all got other things that we want to be doing other than work. How big is your team? If you don't, if you don't mind me asking, but like how big was this maneuver? Like are we talking 50 people, 20 people? Because that can sometimes make an impact for some of the businesses that might be listening to this. So they've got teams of 20 or 30. Like, can they actually do this four-day week remote working with you know bigger teams?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. So we're a team of 20. Okay. So we're not big, we're not tiny. Um, and and it really worked well. It really, it really did. And again, the secret is removing those inefficiencies, those meetings, those distractions, the things that aren't necessary. Using technology to automate, we are lucky we have our own proprietary tracking platform that we built in-house back in the day when Diablo started. And that tool we use and we can add and change whenever we need something. And so that's kind of our secret weapon, other than Monday, but that's our tool that made this easy because we just automate as much as we can. And we do that because we have full control over our tracking platform. So automation is huge. Using technology is is huge.
SPEAKER_03Just a big piece. Yeah, big piece. And in terms of your clients, what did your clients say? Because I mean, from the client's perspective, you know, I'm working with an agency that I can or with a media network that I can only contact four days a week. That springs alarm bells. How did you manage that communication?
SPEAKER_04Well, a lot of affiliates also don't work on Fridays, we found. So fair point. Yeah. They live the life, you know, they're they're working from Thailand or Thailand and wherever they are, absolutely. Yeah. So we found that in general, Fridays weren't really busy. And again, we still have to have our eye on our phones, on our computers, but we can be doing it from the hiking trail or the ski slope and in answering those emergency things uh when they come up. And no one has said anything because we are again responsible adults. And if we are on vacation and unavailable, we do put in an out of office for that day so they know. And we also have backups. So we have a team member for emergencies that will answer those those calls or on a rotor or something like an after hours rotor or something.
SPEAKER_03I mean, like they used to do. I remember when when I was a kid, my dad used to always work, you know, weekends and stuff, and he'd have a little beeper on his pocket and it would kind of beep. And for anybody that doesn't know what a beeper is, you you're you're too young to remember those things. It was way before mobile phones. But I think, you know, we've spoken about all the good things about this, about moving to a four-day week, about allowing your team to work remotely. But like, let's talk about some of the challenges because there must have been some. I mean, you know, nothing ever works perfectly the first time. So, what what was like one of the key things that you can maybe give as a tip to anybody thinking about doing this? What what are some of the challenges that you need to overcome before you can logistically actually take your business to a four-day working week?
SPEAKER_04Setting clear expectations, I believe, is is something that really needs to be done. Are you expecting people to answer Slacks, answer emails on a Friday? And if so, set that expectation. If uh, or are you saying nope, no working, no internal communication? And so we did set the expectation that you know, if something comes up, please answer it. Please always have, unless you are on vacation and you do have that out of office protocol in place, you know, is it uh 100% no working on Friday? No. But it is no one is checking in, no one is expecting you to have meetings to do anything, to hear from you. And so, um, but again, just setting the clear expectations of what is needed for your company is huge. It's it's gonna be different for every for every company and different industries as well. But but for us, that was the main thing we had to do was to set the clear expectation that you know, if the CEO messages you, answer him.
SPEAKER_03Um the same in any company, like if your boss emails you, you are gonna answer them as long as it's within working hours, and you know, it's not like eleven, twelve o'clock at night. Although I do know some affiliate managers who are that dedicated that they do answer within like 30 minutes. It's just part of the job, you know, it's part of the industry. But it is also a very serious thing. Because as managers, we don't want to overload our people or burn them out either. Because as it is, talent is hard to find in the affiliate space. So, you know, I think, I think it's amazing what you guys have achieved. The fact that you've been able to move your business to a four-day working week, the fact that all of your people are buying into this as a privilege, um, you know, not as a right, but as actually as an additional benefit to their, you know, salary package, compensation package, which actually just proves that when you incentivize your staff and when you actually give your staff the things that mean the most to them, and that's not always money, let's let's face it, but also career progression, you know, freedom, flexibility, that beautiful things can happen. And, you know, we we are lucky enough to work in in an industry that is growing year on year. I would urge any heads of affiliates, any senior managers, any, you know, general managers, any networks, agencies, brand side, client side, anybody listening to this podcast to actually kind of really think about what you can do with your staff to incentivize them and to keep talent in our industry. Because for me, you know, having been here for 20 years, it saddens me that we still don't have, you know, a diverse set of skills in our industry. It's still very male-dominated. You know, we're doing a lot of things to change that. There's a lot of, you know, women's groups and mentorships and programs that are being built. But it is a phenomenal industry to work in, as you and I both know. And, you know, we we get the best out of it. And even for graduates coming into this industry, you know, there there is a lot of lucrative opportunities here, not only financially, but also because this industry is so new, you know, it there's still so much to learn. It's it's an industry that doesn't sit still. So it's a really, really great place to work. And even though I'm kind of biased because I love it, it's just good to hear how other companies are adopting solutions to retain talent, to nurture their staff and to make sure that in that nurturing their clients get the benefit of it and also their publishers too.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. You've hit the nail on the head there. It is really important to show employees that we really do appreciate them and that work-life balances is important. And also, yeah, you know, we you talked you touched on the women thing, it is predominantly men, but there are really great things right now, and especially this year is just blowing up with really bringing women to the forefront, which is very exciting to see. And having a three-day work week helps women have that flexibility. I really enjoy it, and it really is a game changer, it's a life changer. When we had it, we have other people saying this really is a life changer. And to have somebody say that about just one perk while they're still making a living and excelling at their job and having a life-changing event just by giving one extra day off is it's really huge and really special.
SPEAKER_03It's true. And and you know, as we all lived through the pandemic, we started to realize that our lives and our work actually all meld together. There is no separate, there is actually no separation. And and we all lived through that. And I think it made people think about things a lot differently, about the way that they do things, the way they engage customers, the way they've managed their partners. Like we're all rediscovering how we can actually make our workplace a better place. And if a four-day week is one of the things that's working for you, I want to thank you guys for coming on to the podcast and sharing exactly how you did that, how you transitioned that and sharing the success of doing that, because I think it helps other companies to see the opportunities that are available. So I really want to thank you for being on the podcast with me today and sharing the Diablo story. I think it's a great initiative. If I wasn't running Affiliate Insider, I'd ask you for a job.
SPEAKER_04Well, thank you. Thank you for having me, and I would hire you in a second.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for being on the podcast with us today, Susanna. It's been a pleasure to have you here.
SPEAKER_04Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02And that's a wrap for this week's Affiliate Insider Affiliate Marketing Podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down in this series, head on over to Apple iTunes and give us a five-star rating and subscribe to our podcast channel so you never miss another insightful episode. Tune in next week for more digital marketing insights and traffic driving tips, tricks, and strategies to keep your digital marketing fresh and your affiliate program driving consistent sales.
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