Welcome to Affiliate Insiders Affiliate Marketing Podcast with me, your host, Leanne Johnston. And I'm absolutely thrilled today because we've got somebody super interesting on the podcast. Dominic Wells is the CEO and founder of Onfolio. He's a serial entrepreneur with more than a decade of experience investing in building digital businesses and has grown Onfolio from a startup into a Nasdaq listed company. And I'm absolutely thrilled to have him here joining us on the podcast today to talk about growing and scaling publisher sites and affiliate marketing in general as he sees it. Hey Dom, how are you?
SPEAKER_01Hey, good thanks. Yeah. Happy to be here now.
SPEAKER_04Thank you so much for making the time to speak to us today. I want to start our interesting discussion that we're going to be having about affiliate marketing with your backstory because it's super interesting. So talk to us a little bit about how you landed up being a serial entrepreneur and how you founded Onfolio Holdings. What was the startup journey that you followed to get from there to here?
SPEAKER_01It's long, as you mentioned in the blurb at the beginning. I've been doing this for about 10 years. So I try and just piece together the key points. Essentially, I started in 2012. I was teaching English in Taiwan and I didn't want to do that anymore. So my options were basically look online because I wanted to stay in Taiwan, but the job market wasn't great outside of being an English teacher. And I discovered a place called Wealthy Affiliate, which used to be a bigger deal than it is now, I think. But it was essentially a training center and community where you can learn affiliate marketing. And the idea back then was you build a site, you write all the content yourself and you learn keyword research and you pick a niche and all of those things. But at that point I thought, okay, if I can do a hundred, maybe I can scale. And so when I got to $500 a month, which was I think sometime coming up to a year that I've been doing it. So I was super frustrated that I was only making $500. But I also thought, okay, if I could do $500, I could probably keep going. And then halfway through my second year, I started a company called Human Proof Designs where we started done-for-you affiliate websites. And this is important for two real reasons. The first it was my first introduction to like Flipper and the concept of buying and flipping websites. And when I was on Flipper, I saw there were all these cookie-cutter starter sites that were basically garbage. Flippers cleaned up a lot of that these days. But back then, people were just buying sites that were useless, but the seller was saying, hey, this is a great passive income generator. So I said, maybe I'll just start selling ones that are actually like real, unique sites. And that was my first real success. Like started making a grand and then two grand, five grand, ten grand. And I did that for about four years. And then around 2017-ish, I found it on folio. I was still doing human-proof designs, but I found it on folio because a lot of my audience at the time human proof designs was doing about a million revenue a year. So it was quite a big business, quite a big audience. People in my audience said, We actually want to learn how to buy bigger websites. Or can we pay you to run bigger websites for us? So go to somewhere like Empire Flippers, buy a business for 50 grand or 100 grand and manage it for us, and we'll pay you like a management fee, a cut of the profits. So I started that, and pretty quickly I realized I wanted to do that more than human-proof designs, and I felt like I was neglecting human-proof designs and it was getting in my way, and I was like not doing it justice. So I sold that to somebody else. He grew HPD to new heights, and I grew Onfolio. So this is like 2019, I think. We're nearly caught up. That's how I got started with Onfolio. And then about a year into my time with Onfolio, I iterated again because I realized rather than running businesses for other people, we should raise money and just start buying businesses for ourselves as a holding company. Everything's under one umbrella rather than being a service provider for all these individuals. And that's where we are today. And we decided it was also something that would be good to take public as another way of raising even more funds and doing more acquisitions.
SPEAKER_04And it's a pretty interesting time to be doing all this. Now, I want to just go back to the beginning of your story because it's very important for people listening, especially the affiliate managers who we're targeting. This was multiple years of work that went into building this huge company that you now have that's listed on the Nasdaq. And it was obviously lots and lots of learnings that culminated in you moving the business model to where you are today. You know, everybody thinks, oh, it's so easy to set up an affiliate site and start making money. And in your beginning part of your story, you said you made nothing in the first six months, then you made $100, and then three years later you were making five, ten thousand dollars. It's a slow burn. Affiliate marketing is a slow burn. Some people get lucky and they strike it rich, maybe they find a niche. But building a genuine affiliate business, it takes a lot of hard work, takes a lot of time and investment, and it does take a lot of research as well if you're going to do it properly. So I just kind of wanted to like embark that because it's super important that people listening understand that an affiliate's journey is not quick. For they could be hanging around in the bottom long tail of your program for years before they actually become a top-performing affiliate for you. So that's super important. But the other thing that's really interesting is the way that this journey led you to now being an investment company that actually purchases and invests in other affiliate or digital sites. So let's delve a little bit into this journey because it's a super interesting one and it's why I wanted to bring you on the podcast. What were some of the things that you wished you'd done differently with the hindsight that you now have at the start of your affiliate journey? Or at the start of your online journey?
SPEAKER_01Great question. I've thought about this one a lot. I think probably I don't know, I have mixed feelings about this. I think I would have done better if I focused on one thing or one site longer, because I guess I skirted around this at the beginning of my my telling my story, but I switched niches quite often. I tried a niche, it didn't work. Like I think I went with quitting smoking first, and then I went with a fitness website and then a shaving website. And in some ways, I think that was key to me eventually finding success because I finally found something that worked. At the time, it felt like if I could just stick to one thing long enough, maybe I would have found success with it anyway, and maybe I would have found success faster. And also maybe if I'd researched a bit more and I was very eager to just jump in and take action. And maybe if I'd been a bit more thoughtful and strategic, I probably would have had success faster. But then at the same time, I also didn't know what I didn't know. And I think a large part of me learning that was by trying lots of different things. So maybe the real tip there then is not to just focus on one thing, but probably to exhibit more patience and just have faith in the journey. And then maybe I wouldn't have been faster, but I probably would have been less frustrated. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04As an entrepreneur, I can feel that story because you do want to try lots of different things and you want to go and make money as quickly as possible because obviously you need to make a living. But actually, the journey, as you just said, is incredibly important. And I think it's that journey that actually leads affiliates to become successful publishers, the pain of learning those mistakes, the pain of going through those journeys, those trials and tribulations. And that's really what I want affiliate managers listening to this podcast to listen and understand is that you need to be a coach on that journey with your partner when you're working with them. And you need to actually understand that this is stuff that they are trying that they maybe haven't tried before. And you might be the guinea pig client that they're going to try that with. Collaborate and be open and transparent with that relationship and that journey is a key part of building relationships.
SPEAKER_01I think I can add to that and say when I was a beginner affiliate, I found it hard to get approved for some of the better affiliate programs because admittedly there's so many beginners that never amount to anything. I think affiliate managers can't approve them all. But I I would just get rejected all the time because maybe I didn't have a proven track record, or maybe my website didn't have traffic yet. But you never know when that's gonna change and an affiliate is gonna turn the corner and suddenly become one of your best affiliates. So I think maybe if affiliate managers are willing to take chances on unproven people more, they might, you know, they're obviously gonna have to deal with way more annoying people that never amount to anything, but you never know when you're gonna discover that next affiliate who crushes it and sends you a ton of money and ton of sales. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's a good point. Now, what are the core principles that you've learned over this journey that affiliates and affiliate managers can be aware of when they're building their digital businesses or company brands right now in 2022? Because 10 years ago, and a lot of what you're speaking about still actually resonates in the industry today, which is unfortunate. We haven't actually moved on. Um but there's still similar problems that are happening in this channel. So, what are some of the things that you would recommend to affiliates and affiliate managers listening in that they can do really simply and quickly and easily to build their programs and their businesses in 2022?
SPEAKER_01Two things. One one really applies to everything, which is just about tenacity and sticking with something long enough to see if it's gonna work, because definitely I don't know what it's like on the affiliate manager side, but affiliates are very like shiny object prone and they want to try something and switch to something else. The other thing is I've always found the best success I've had with getting affiliate conversions was being able to show people how to use something. So when I taught people how to build affiliate websites, if I wanted to promote, for example, like a WordPress plugin that helps you build a better website, I would just create a review article where I'd say instead of like, hey, here's a review of Thrive Themes or something and write a genetic review, I'd say, here's how to use Thrive Themes to do X, Y, Z. And then it's useful because not only are you sticking your affiliate link in there, but you're showing people why they need it, but also you're just you're helping people because they actually like, oh cool, I didn't know I could do that with Thrive Themes, I'm gonna check it out. So I think if you bring that to a core principle, basically it goes back to that age old tenant of features, not benefits. And so I think affiliate managers can probably help publishers create content showing how their stuff works and different things you can do with their stuff rather than just talking about why it's good and publishers the same thing.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. So that's a really great point. Where do you see the true opportunities for investing in affiliate companies right now? Because obviously that's what on well, I mean, not only affiliate sites but digital businesses. That's what Onfolio does. You know, is it marketing tech or is it just keeping your eyes peeled for new publishers that are coming into the space? Where are the opportunities currently existing? Because this industry is growing uh, you know, in double-digit figures year on year. I think that there was a recent report that's come out from either the PMA or the A-Win Index report, which are two reports that I read every year. But I think the number was something like in the next year or two, we're expecting this industry to be as big as $9.2 billion. So where are the opportunities to actually go and search and find businesses to buy or sites to buy?
SPEAKER_01I guess the opportunities depend from whose perspective. So if we talk about affiliate managers, for example, or maybe not the managers themselves, but the affiliate program managers or something, I would say there's probably two big ones that jump out for me. I don't know how many affiliate companies do it. One is buying additional products that could be related to some of the successful products and kind of bundling them up. So for example, I don't know, let's say you have an info product in the vegan recipe space, just going out and finding other vegan recipe info products and then other healthy eating info products and things where there's cross-sell opportunities because then you're building a list and you can cross-promote and things like that. And then the second is what you touched upon with uh finding publishers, but potentially just buying up your affiliates. Maybe you've got an affiliate that sends a large amount of traffic to you, and you can just buy their website, and then now you don't have to pay them affiliate commissions anymore. So your margin improves that way. But also maybe they promote you and they promote your competitor and they promote some other people, and you can potentially just direct people more towards you versus your competitors. And a great example of that is SEMrush. Recently bought Brian Dean's blonde backlinco.com, and Brian was one of ref's biggest affiliates and AHREF's huge SEMrush competitor, and bit by bit, mentions of AHREFs that's changing to mentions of SEMrush. So I'm not sure how I feel about that from a kind of moral point of view, but if a public company is doing it, I think it's probably legal. But the interesting opportunity there for SEMrush is not only are they now getting more traffic, but they're taking traffic away from a competitor. So it's kind of a a win in two ways. So I think there are opportunities there. The downside is not every affiliate company wants to be a publisher or they want to operate their blog. They just want to have products and have other people promote it. Yeah. It's definitely an opportunity, but it doesn't necessarily mean every affiliate management team is going to take it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And also there's probably a different skill set that's required, right? It's not the same as managing an affiliate relationship or an affiliate site. So you need to make sure that you've got the skills in place to actually make that swap and do that acquisition.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So another thing you could do, I guess it depends how bullish people are on this idea. And one thing you could do is buy up one of your best affiliates, but encourage that affiliate to stay within your company, and then they can go off and you can buy them other blocks to run because they probably have that skill set that you don't have, you know, it's like an acquishi hire type thing. That's what I would do. But I it's not a skill I need to learn. I already have it. So that's kind of the the only uh caveat.
SPEAKER_04So how do you go and look for sites to potentially bring into OnFailure Portfolio? Are there certain segments that you focus in as a market, or does it just have to be a unique cool idea or a piece of tech? How how do you do that acquisition process?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in the beginning it was mostly just anything that was good business within the online business space. But if you spread yourself too broad, you you spread yourself too thin. It's I guess it's pretty obvious. So now we try to build acquisitions around things that we already have. So we've got a few B2B, we have a few SEO service businesses, and we have a few pet websites. I think we've got four, and then we have three craft websites. So these could be belongs with affiliate commissions and like display ads on them. And so we try to look for acquisitions that are good add-ons to those spaces, but then at the same time, we also want to look for other spaces. So that's how we select stuff in terms of the beginning of your question. Like, where do we find them? There's brokerages out there, there's marketplaces. People come to us to sell their business directly rather than you know, they think, oh, do you want to buy my business? Because then I don't have to pay a broker a commission. Yeah, it's like a full-time job. We have a full-time person whose job it is to just find deal flows. I would just start with brokerages if I was doing this for the first time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I mean, if you've built a site and say you're earning maybe $10,000 a month off of a site, is that time to go and talk to like Flipper or Empire Flippers or whoever it is that you can just go and use those brokerage sites, or do you actually find like somebody who specializes in MA in whatever vertical you're in?
SPEAKER_01You mean like someone who's looking to sell. Yeah. Yeah, I would probably just go to Empire Flippers or Flipper or FA International. You might get for a business that's making 10k a month, assume it's the average, you might get 350,000 or something for that. And they typically take around a 15% commission. So about 50k. So you might end up with 300, which is for someone making 10k a month, it might not be that much more life-changing for them to keep hold of the business or cash flow, but selling it and getting 300k could be quite a lot of money for someone. Yeah, a lot of people take that option.
SPEAKER_04And how do you value affiliate sites? Because I think that's a million-dollar question. How do you value an online business that can change overnight if you get a Google penalty? I think that's a big question that I always get asked by affiliates is you know, how do I, what kind of multiple am I looking for? How does that work in this industry?
SPEAKER_01The industry's established enough by now that there's like averages. I said you get 350k for that. Obviously, this is a very hypothetical scenario because we don't know does that business have an email list and all these other things. So right now the average multiple is around 35 times monthly earnings. And the longer it's been there, the higher the multiple you get. So you might get 40. If it's only been at 10k a month for a few months, then you might get a lower multiple. And yeah, think so. The big thing is there's a risk of a Google penalty. The more diversification you have, typically the higher multiple you get. So if you have a strong email list, maybe you give them a lot of traffic from Facebook, whether that's paid or social. Pinterest is often a good driver of traffic. Maybe you have a digital product rather than you're just like a blog. So things like this. But yeah, like the average content site these days is even the good ones have been hit by a Google update once or twice. It makes it harder to make an acquisition because there's always that risk. So we look for the diversification that I just talked about.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing to think about as well, which I think a lot of people are asking, is with cookie deprecation coming in, obviously affiliates need to diversify their product away from just being a traffic driver. So things like lead generation and building lists and having digital products and things that actually gather databases is quite important. And I think affiliate managers also need to be looking at that, not just the surface value of what the website is today, but how can we actually partner a little bit deeper with all of these publishers that are coming into the program, especially the ones that are gathering data and actually building brands around their platforms? What do you think some of the biggest trends are to watch out for in the affiliate and performance marketing industry right now? Because it is a fast-paced environment. Things are changing all the time, and obviously at the forefront of investing, you guys are looking at future trends. So what do you think are some of the big trends in the performance space that people should be looking at?
SPEAKER_01For me, it's less about trends and more about what I think is the right way to do things. So, you know, I like exactly what you just talked about. Like I like building a brand and working with partners. And there's kind of two ways that affiliates drive traffic. There's ones who essentially are just the middle person. They get traffic either from organic or from paid, and then they just pass it along to the vendor. And sometimes they they warm up the traffic. Sometimes they're essentially just almost stealing traffic, hijacking it and sending it along with their cookie. And then the right way to do it is more one example I used recently is there's a website called Vaping360, which is in the CBD and vaping space. And they essentially helped a lot of the CBD brands build their brands because Vaping360 has a huge email list. They have a brand, they have people who visit the website every day because they're fans of the website. And when a new brand partners with them, they can send them sales and traffic because they say, Hey, check out this new brand, rather than they just try and rank for like random CBD company review in Google. And so for me, those are the sorts of things I I focus on, and I think what different tactics or strategies can I use to do that better? So I'm not really answering about trends because I don't know if trend following is always good versus taking a holistic view.
SPEAKER_04And I think that that's the thing. The longer you're in this industry, the more you trust your data and not look at the fads because the fads do come and go. I remember back in the early 2000s, everybody said mobile was gonna be amazing. Actually, mobile is still amazing. It wasn't a fad, it's still something that's continuing to grow. So, you know, a lot of people diversified out of web and went into mobile, but at that point it was still too early. And the same can be said about Web 3.0. Everybody's talking about how fantastic it is, but nobody really knows what the practical application is gonna be. I tend to agree with you. I think you should just go with what makes pure business sense for you today and also trusting your gut in terms of what you think is important and valuable for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and with web three, there's also the kind of tech side of it where there aren't a lot of affiliate options out there because there aren't really any kind of recurring, there's no real way to have someone pay you in Ethereum on a recurring basis. So it's hard to get affiliates paid on a recurring basis as well. So there's actually a lot of stuff that needs to be figured out there. So while it's exciting, now I'm just gonna focus on what I think makes more sense.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. What do you think affiliate managers should focus on when working with a brand new online site? Because you yourself had this experience as an affiliate when you joined programs and you weren't actually given any attention until you started to actually develop revenue. But what would you recommend that programs can do in that gap when somebody's trying to figure out how to actually drive traffic but hasn't quite got there yet? How much or how little contact should there be? What can be done to actually nurture that relationship without actually taking up a lot of resource? Because as you said, defending managers can't work with every single person that comes into the program direct. But what are some of the things that you wish could have been done at that point?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's tough because if you respond to everyone and you know that everyone, then you're not going to have enough time in the day to work with the people who are crushing it and deserve your attention. To some extent, affiliates do need to be self-directed and they need to learn. They shouldn't be spoon-fed. But I think just maybe making yourself more accessible. Because for me it was like, hey, look, I know I'm a beginner, I know I need to figure this out, I know my website's not ranking, I know I've written a review for your product and it's probably average, but could you at least reply to my email? You know, because what new people really need is just encouragement and and kind of access. Now, if someone said, Hey, I'm super busy, I get like a hundred emails a day, I'm not going to reply to you quickly, but I want to see you succeed. Message me if you have any problems or any questions or any ideas, and I'll get to you when I can. That would I think that probably would have satisfied me in the beginning. And also, again, this is probably a bandwidth thing, but the more resources. that people can make for affiliates the better. And a a lot of resources that I saw when I was a beginner, it was just like, yeah, we've got loads of banner ads you can use. And I was like tutorials, banner ads.
SPEAKER_04There's a time and a place for banner ads, but actually we need to get a little bit more clever about how we create content and leverage our partners to engage audiences.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it's interesting as well because I think it sometimes it's not just beginners as well. So I had a website about two years ago that was doing pretty well with the master class affiliate program, which is done through share a sales. So it's it should be fairly sophisticated. And in a very quick period, I think I made $10,000 a month in commissions. And so I reached out to the master class affiliate manager and was like, hey, is there anything more I can do? Do you have any examples of what's working really well for other affiliates that I can try or can you create me a coupon code I can give to my audience to encourage them to sign up. Yeah and thinking okay I'm doing okay. I I'm sure there's other affiliates making more than me but I'm doing okay and they just replied with a basic article that was like yeah if you want to make more money you can just rank higher in Google. And I was like okay thanks. Never mind. Yeah I already ranked number one.
SPEAKER_04100% correct I think you've hit the nail in the head and I think it's very refreshing to actually hear it from the horse's mouth because from the flip side we think we know what affiliates need and want but actually it would be good to just sit down and ask them. And the other thing is that I don't think at the beginning of your journey you would have minded being part of a group. So whilst an affiliate manager doesn't have time to actually do one-to-one they could actually host a group event with things like Zoom, which everybody is quite used to right now and actually have like little learning sessions that they can just give little tidbits of advice of what is working, what isn't and then let those guys go free to go and try it and actually see what they can do with the data or the insights that they're sharing. So if you're listening to this listen to it from Dominic's mouth and mine get involved in your community and build that community that's silent and trudging along in the background but not yet actually delivering sales for you. And there's multiple ways that you can do that. Now there was an article that I read that you had contributed to on GeniusLink in 2019, so pre-pandemic about affiliate marketing. What advice would you give to listeners now? Because obviously what happened prior to that and how we are looking at the web universe right now and how people are engaging right now has slightly changed. What's important to us has changed how long we are online has changed, how we interact online has changed. What do you think people need to do in order to succeed with affiliate marketing right now? And this could be to affiliate managers or it could be to publishers that are listening as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I think do the hard work I think affiliates could get away with being lazy a lot more in the past. So you know everybody built a similar like Amazon affiliate site I'm guilty of building ones like that and teaching people how to do it. But you can't really get away with that anymore because A, I think Google penalizes it in the algorithm a lot more and B, I think consumers have wised up to it. So for years probably from say 2017-ish onwards there's been loads and loads of threads inside the Amazon affiliate forums which I can't remember the name of but so many people say like my conversion rates have dropped I'm sending you the same number of clicks as I always used to and I'm not getting as many sales as I used to Amazons either deliberately or unknowingly they're not rewarding commissions and there's loads of people yeah obviously online everyone's like yeah I same here it's a conspiracy but loads and loads of people and I was on good terms with the former head of Amazon affiliate program in the EU and he said there are engineers looking into this like we're taking it seriously there's engineers looking into it to see if there is anything dropping off. Uh are our cookies not working is something happening and I never really found out the full conclusion but my theory is consumers just learned how to tell what a crappy lazy affiliate site was and they just wouldn't necessarily buy just because somebody sent them to Amazon anymore. They did a lot more research maybe they went to YouTube but now I think people go to TikTok. So if you do the hard work like again like vaping 360 like you actually review the products and you you show evidence that you've actually reviewed it. So maybe photo with your hands and the actual products you're gonna do better. So it's kind of a double reason to do it because A you'll get better results and B, the other way doesn't work anymore. And that was always better. It was always better to do that. But I think in the past most of us were lazy and we were just like no I just want to rank and then I'll just hope people click on my link and buy. Yeah I don't think you can get away with that anymore.
SPEAKER_04Do you think that's why social influences and ambassadors have now really started to grow and are being included in affiliate programs because these content curators are actually putting the work in to create this type of content that you've just explained.
SPEAKER_01I think it's that yeah and I think it could also be maybe influencers in the past would just get an upfront fee, a sponsorship fee. So they rarely wanted to do something for an affiliate commission because they whenever we worked with influencers they'd we'd say hey we'll give you 50% of every sale and they'd say no I just want a thousand dollars to do the sponsor thing. And I think people who were paying those sponsorship fees are now wised up that actually it maybe doesn't generate them any profit unless the influencer does a good job of explaining. So I think probably to some extent influencers have to sign up because it's more lucrative for them now. But I think that's a good thing because it yeah it forces them to actually do better reviews and show people why products are better and so on. YouTube influencers actually do a pretty good job of that.
SPEAKER_04For sure. And Twitch too that comes to the end of this podcast it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you and to get the insights from your perspective as you've grown your business on folio and just to hear some of the things that affiliates and affiliate managers can do to just bridge those gaps in relationships and get better working results out of their programs and out of their partnerships. So it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on this podcast today, Dominic and we wish you all the very success as you continue to grow.
SPEAKER_03Yeah thank you and that's a wrap for this week's Affiliate Insider Affiliate Marketing Podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down in this series head on over to Apple iTunes and give us a five star rating and subscribe to our podcast channel so you never miss another insightful episode. Tune in next week for more digital marketing insights and traffic driving tips, tricks and strategies to keep your digital marketing fresh and your affiliate program driving consistent sales.
SPEAKER_00This podcast is brought to you by AMP affiliate insider is an independently owned business so we're sponsoring this podcast episode to showcase our exclusive affiliate management performance program. AMP is our unique program for affiliate marketing program managers. We've helped hundreds of affiliate managers across a range of brands to get the best of their affiliate partnerships and build consistent sales teeth to access each semester are very limited so don't miss out. Run as a live coaching session once per week this 12-week intensive training program is suitable for affiliate program managers at all levels. You will learn proven tactics and strategies that allow you to upscale your program or team performances, growth your sales using tried and tested strategies that have been gained from decades of experience running million dollar affiliate programs worldwide. For more information on what AMP offers or how to book your place on the next open cohort please visit affiliateinsider.com and hit the training button to find out more making a high quality podcast like this one takes a lot of work.
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