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SPEAKER_05Welcome back to this week's Affiliate Marketing Podcast with me, Leanne Johnston, your host. This is the only podcast that you're going to need to listen to each week if you're launching, scaling, or growing an affiliate program across the retail, e-commerce, and iGaming industry. I'm Leanne Johnston, the founder of Affiliate Insider, which is an affiliate marketing agency. I'm also your podcast host, and this week we're going to do a recap of everything that I've shared in season eight of the podcast and some of my favorite quotes from the guests that are featured during this show. So if you want to level up your affiliate performance and you want to grow your affiliate program and partnerships too, lean in closer and listen to the nuggets that I shared over the last 11 weeks as we draw this season of the affiliate marketing podcast to a close. First up, we talked about affiliate marketing, remote working, and the benefits of having a four-day working week with Susanna Rayburn, the general manager at Diablo Media, an affiliate network based out of Colorado. One of my favorite segments from this particular episode sums up working in the affiliate industry quite nicely. I hope that you'll enjoy it too. So talk to us a little bit about how moving to this four-day work week has worked out for you. Because let's share with people, you know, the management success that you guys are experiencing by managing your team and giving them this flexibility.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. You know, we all know it's no secret that working in the affiliate industry is not a nine to five job. It is all hours. And so I think that that's what makes it conducive to this four-day work week because everybody has to be looking at their phones and computers all hours, weekends, every day. And so what this actually enabled us to do is to be able to have that Friday in which we aren't having meetings, we aren't having any sort of necessity. And so all they have to do is keep a pulse on what they're already keeping a pulse on. And we've found that it actually they're more willing to answer a 9 p.m. message because they've had time to rejuvenate. Yeah. And so really our industry, more than maybe any other, is really conducive to this structure. Well, a lot of affiliates also don't work on Fridays, we found. Yeah. They live the life, you know, they're they're working from Thailand or London, wherever they are.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So we found that in general, Fridays weren't really busy. And again, we still have to have our eye on our phones, on our computers, but we can be doing it from the hiking trail or the ski slope and and answering those emergency things uh when they come up. And no one has said anything because we are again responsible adults. And and if we are on vacation and unavailable, we do put in an out of office for that day so they know. And we also have backups. So we have a team member for emergencies that will answer those calls or in this next clip.
SPEAKER_05I talked to Nicholas Yates from Silverbean about how the affiliate marketing industry currently operates and some of the changes that we're seeing from an agency's perspective. It's a very unstructured industry that we're working in.
SPEAKER_08The one thing that I think there's two things there. If you speak to any affiliate and partner marketing manager, yeah, and you ask them what do you do, or you ask the parent, what does your son or daughter do? If they're anyone like mine, they'll never be able to explain what to do. Because affiliate and partner marketing can be so broad and it's a great thing. But when you're trying to sell the channel or trying to improve your salary in the office, for example, if you work in in-house, to try and explain what you do is really hard. And because it is quite hard to do, then that then limits probably the actual growth in that. And I I I just simplified it down like to a 90-second pitch. If we basically recruit partners, we optimize them, and we improve budget, like but maximize spend. And that's a very simple view of everything that we do within affiliate partner marketing management.
SPEAKER_05Like you make it sound sample, but it's a heck of a lot of work, and every day is different. So that is what makes it difficult to explain. What do you do as an affiliate manager? Because today you could be dealing with content curators, tomorrow you could be looking at click fraud, the next day you could be looking at you know maximizing strategy and going into like brainstorming sessions. So, how do you explain that upwards?
SPEAKER_08I I think it's what is the elevator pitch of what your role is. And and for me, the the way that I express that is by labeling the partnership economy, I work within traditional affiliates, content aggregators, brand and brand partnerships, for example.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Plus, the main focus of the work is to recruit, optimize, and maximize spend. And it's kind of like how do we educate the entire channel to take it up a little bit in regards to the conversations that we're having with other people outside of the channel? Because as soon as you go very tactical in conversation, then sometimes it dilutes the actual really good work that we're doing because quite simply people external to the channel just don't understand it. Like, and and they're not meant to neither, but it's about how you can actually sell yourself and be clear in regards to what you're offering the business.
SPEAKER_05And the other thing as well, like like other digital channels, it it's not immediate. You know, if you do a paid media campaign, you've got results in the first 24 hours. You know, is this channel working? Is this traffic source working? With an affiliate relationship, it takes weeks to build a relationship of trust where they actually then give you their real estate on a performance basis, where then you can measure the results. So a lot of clients, and I'm sure you get these conversations too. Next up, we spoke about adapt, a new acronym and book authored by Diane Primo, as she broke down how you can adapt your affiliate program using a simple strategic methodology to plan for success. Listen into the excerpt below and how to apply this to your business too.
SPEAKER_02What I did realize is I was writing my book, Paul, Paul was also writing one on purpose, thinking about the same things, right? And I've actually recommended this as a read, and I would recommend mine as a read, to be honest with you. And we were really thinking about the how to, right? And I was really focused on the US, as he was really focused on global, right? So my desire was to break things down simply so others could pick it up and use it and implement it. And so adapt actually is an acronym, and some acronyms are really catchy, but this one actually works. And one of our reviews said it works. Adapt is assess, define, amplify, perform, and transcend. Why is so that's so important in purpose? Because it basically paints the journey that you have to go through to become a purpose-led company. The assessment piece is about really understanding the marketplace that you're in, understanding the culture and where it's going, what the drivers are, what what they care passionately about, understanding internally what your employees think, what they're passionate about, because you want that alignment to very important. Remember, I was out of alignment. Okay. Get an alignment. How do you get in alignment with your your employees? Okay. How do you fill their souls? How do you give them, I love it, soul food, right? I have to use, I'm gonna use that again. How do I give them soul food, right? And I really began to think about that, and that's what goes on to the assessment stage of do a lot of research. And you want to assess who you are, which is very important. Who are you? What are you really good at? And so you want to be really self-reflective and empathetic. And in today's world, that's really what a company has to be. They have to be very reflective because everything's changing all the time. Nothing is what you can expect it to be. So lean into that assessment stage, but it's not the first stage because it is in purpose, but it's an ongoing stage, which is really important. The second piece has to do with definition, which is define. And that is about what most companies see that as is, oh, what's that purpose statement? Purpose is more than a statement. And in that definition stage, I help companies understand why it is more than a definition. And more importantly, what are the other aspects that you need to put in place to bring it to life? Like, you know, you got to be credible. You have to align it, you have to put some metrics around it, you have to have a strategy around it. You have to be able to think about how you operationalize it, you have to be thinking about impact early on.
SPEAKER_05I want to stop you there because actually what you've just said is what a brand should be doing to launch an affiliate program. Assess, cover, define. And some of those steps are always missed. It's, oh, we're gonna go and launch an affiliate program. Yeah, no, no.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, no, you can't do that. And you you really cannot. I mean, it's sort of the basics, right? And you can even launch affiliate programs that have some kind of, you know, you know, you could have some targeting around it. What are you gonna do, right? You could have some kind of bigger goal around it. You might have a gift back program for the things that the money that you you make, right? But what I would what I would say is is to affiliate, you know, marketers, affiliate partners, how do you feel your souls? How do you do that? That's really important too, to think about that. Because you are more likely to have others resonate with you if you indeed do things they care deeply about. It could very much be a competitive advantage for you.
SPEAKER_05And you gotta think about it that way. Next up, you can hear me and the CEO of RevLifter chew the fat over what the big trends are in the e-commerce and affiliate marketing industry and what could be improved as Simon sees the marketplace from their perspective. How easy has it been for you to actually get RevLifter into the networks? Have they been open to taking in third-party platforms? Because m my understanding of how the e-commerce industry works different to the gaming industry where everything is in-house and customized, um, is that you're quite reliant on the major networks or the or the platform that you're using or the SaaS technology that you're using to provide you with those services. So has it been quite easy to get you know this innovation into the kind of community as a whole?
SPEAKER_09It's been really hard, I'll be honest with you, because the uh you know, there are a couple of affiliate networks that I think are quite forward-thinking and see themselves as a kind of like almost like building an app store where you can access 5,000 MARTSE companies out there and easily install it on your website. So there are some networks that have put that into their tracking even a few years ago. But I but I feel like because some of those networks have done that, the other networks are kind of in catch-up mode. And so I'm seeing more evidence of the other networks you know doing that and being more receptive to it. And I've been told by the affiliate networks that as they see their RFPs, increasingly they're seeing you know, advertisers say, Well, if I'm going to choose your network, can you accommodate third-party plugins to your stack? So I'm seeing a lot more evidence of that. When it comes to incrementality reporting, I am also speaking to affiliate networks about how they're thinking about incrementality reporting as well, which I think is a key thing to help. That's how you measure what we all do, right? Like, you know, it's as simple as if I was working with RevLift or not, or whoever or not, you know, before and after am I seeing a net gain versus not, you know. The hardest part about affiliate marketing is affiliate marketing is kind of always on, right? You can't say to a top, you know, top cashback, for example, can you turn off your traffic for 10% of the time so I can build a control group and work that out. But what I think that the affiliate network should do a better job at is encouraging their retailers to start tracking lifetime value. I think that's really interesting because you know, once you start to see lifetime value, and often they say that people that shop through affiliates in the first place are probably possibly a bit more promiscuous and a little bit more edgy and more intelligent because they're going the extra mile to get a great deal. You know, maybe they're more interesting customers to you as a business, and maybe you should work harder to try and not only capture those customers but hang on to them, right? So I think I think there's a whole body of work to be done around lifetime value. And for any of the lead networks listening, please work with your publishers and your retailers to try and work that out. Because I think it'd be good to have lifetime value for the whole channel, but also ultimately per publisher as well. So wouldn't it be cool to work out, you know, if you know, by publisher, where your best customers are coming from.
SPEAKER_05Now, this is probably one of my favorite episodes of the season. And it has to be the conversation that I had with Ray Wright from the founder of You Furnish and his experience of working with brands to promote their product and the pain points that he shared from entering this industry as a new affiliate. We've spoken about your journey. We've spoken about how quickly it's happened, we've spoken about why it's happened and it's come from innovation. I want to talk a little bit about your experience as an as a newbie into the affiliate space and what your experience of working with different brands has been and where there have been some downsides and maybe an objective view of what could maybe start being improved in this industry.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. It's been quite fascinating, actually, having come from marketing technology and SaaS sales, you know, that my career prior to this was all about working with businesses to demonstrate value and to understand problems and then show them how your software solution could solve those problems. And that was quite easy to articulate if people were open to sharing. And if they weren't, then you probably couldn't arrive at a junction where you could add value. And I've probably found the same thing coming into the affiliate industry. What I was quite taken back by at the beginning was companies' willing willingness to share information and then looking for results, right, without context of why they're looking for results or what they're prepared to invest to where they're prepared to go. Now, what's happened over the journey, Leanne, we have the majority of our partners, is that we've built great relationships, we understand their business objectives, and now we can go and we could sit down and have value-additive conversations where we can pitch them solutions and we can pitch them opportunities. And we're doing it because we know that it will actually deliver results for them and help their businesses grow. But stopping short of that, like not getting that information, made it challenging. And at first, I think people looked at us and said, Well, who are these guys and what are they about and that kind of thing? And I don't know them. And people would say things like, Oh, your domain authority is small, or um, you know, I haven't heard of you guys before, and and I invest in other things. And that and and maybe that's fair, but probably my ask if the industry would be to say, let's get on the page when it comes to context around context around the affiliate and who they are, what they offer, and context around your business to find alignment so that you're not turning a blind eye to opportunities. And I think that's where the that's where the industry can level up in in that space.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, so many times I see programs when when they're brought to us, because as you know, we're an agency as well, there is, you know, they top heavy in certain types of affiliates. There's a lack of understanding that there needs to be, you know, a channel of different partner types in order to get you from the top of the funnel to the bottom of the funnel. And essentially that's just legacy-lazy affiliate account management. You know, it's about relying heavily relying on the partners that you know can deliver value and squeezing those partners harder in order to meet targets instead of going out and finding net new. And and I guess there's also, and not to kind of like bash affiliate account managers because that's not what we're here for, but there is also the trade-off on the brand side and or agency side, depending on on who's managing your program, in terms of where do I spend my time, because I can't manage a thousand affiliates, you know, effectively. But I think in that process, and because there's this old way of doing things that that isn't changing or not changing fast enough, we're missing out on these types of opportunities. Because I'm sure as eggs, if I was a brand two years ago when you came, you know, when you came to me and said, This is what I'm building, if my account management team didn't listen, they'd be sorry now. You know, less than two years later, look at the volumes that you guys are doing and and the value that you're adding in that customer bio journey, and they would have missed out simply because they were too busy to have a conversation. And I relationship building still very much leads this industry. But relationship building is more than going out for a beer at the pub.
SPEAKER_07It it is. It is. I mean, ultimately, we're all here to deliver results for whoever we're beholden to. So, you know, we're beholden to the advertisers and the agencies that we work with, then they're beholden to the people that we work with, they're beholden to someone else who runs that organization or shareholders. And so there's a there's a virtuous circle of that kind of stuff. I think the thing about it is, you know, we try to look at it from like the glasses are full perspective. We work with a number of account managers, the affiliate networks, uh agencies who are highly engaged and who have built strong relationships with us and allowed us to actually build strong relationships with the brands directly and work with them collaboratively. And those relationships are fine. Like they're they're going super, super well. And they're a really good barometer of how success can be achieved. And we all feel like we're on the same page. And it also leans into look, not everything's going to be great news. And Jesus, like if I had a dollar for every time that I heard someone say, Oh, I invested in this campaign with such and such or whoever, and and it didn't work, and now I've got no confidence in the industry, it's like, well, I don't think that's a good proxy. You know, I think that there's this sharing and there's openness and there's success and there's failure, and then there are learnings off the back of it. And then there's a commitment to growing the relationship and working through those learnings. So I think if you're invested in the relationship, you can make it work, you know, and and you just have to accept the journey that that will go on. And and yeah, it's improving. It's definitely improving for us. But there are there's still a little way to go, you know. And I I think there's still a bit of evolution and learning for people to go on with that journey.
SPEAKER_05Next up, Ellie Hooper from the GOAT Agency delivered some amazing insights in episode eight of this season. As we delved a little bit deeper into influencer marketing as part of the affiliate marketing mix. Here are some of the key insights that she shared in this episode. So, talk to us a little bit about how you know you can manage that upfront fee versus Rev Share because I think that's the biggest thing that affiliate managers are asking me is they all want to work on fixed fee, and we've got a budget that's based on performance. So, how do you actually approach that and how how do you suggest that people can get around that and still get the benefit of working with these collaborators?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's a really interesting question and one that I've actually been quite thoughtful about and still probably am coming to my own conclusions about it. I mean, there are benefits in both. We actually work on a guaranteed deliverables model. So we up front say you're gonna get if you pay X amount, you're going to get this many impressions, this many, this, this many, that. And like we will guarantee that. And if you don't get it, you pay the percentage that you did get. Okay. So that is how we as an agency work. So we're very clear with the performance marketing side of things, yeah. But we then have to pass that on to our influencers. So a big way that we work is, you know, really mapping out what individuals and what influencers are going to achieve for us within, you know, and we're really trying to move away from a kind of place where we say, right, we're gonna get you X amount of Instagram stories, X amount of TikToks, X we want X amount of content because we do find that influencers have such different performance on different channels and will all deliver value. But it's up to, you know, you, me as the experts, to really make sure we're mapping that out, that out well. But in terms of like the performance guarantee for an individual, I would say it also depends potentially on like the longevity and the value of you say working with that brand and that individual, because they're all that sorry, that brand, yeah, moving forward. Because obviously affiliates is fantastic if you can get continued revenue from that and you really see your audience working well at it. But if it's more of a one-off purchase, and like we've seen that model actually be introduced like sex toys, yeah, yeah kind of thing. Yeah, and and to be honest, like that's probably the kind of thing you're gonna buy one of one one time, yeah.
SPEAKER_05It's not something it's not like a Boscara that you're gonna replace every six to eight weeks, you know.
SPEAKER_04So that's exactly it. So I think it's just work, and you know, affiliate links are great for wider umbrella fashion brands where you can get continued things from depending on styles. So I think I think to be honest, when you look at that paid versus revenue share side of things, a it depends on your scale, I would say, like influencers should. Should be paid for the activity that they're doing. I think brands find it it's helpful for brands to be paying influencers because we can guarantee performance. And as an agency, that's what we really specialize in. Guarantee the type of content that's going to be distributed, but it's you know, guarantee the messaging and you know what's gonna go out, etc. And that's interesting because that's a really kind of that we we we work with these influencers to ensure that the content's super authentic, but also we're making sure that you know we're getting the right influence on the board for the right brands who will deliver what we're after in a campaign period. Whereas affiliates are slightly more fluid, I guess. Like you do it for your on board with a brand and you do it more for your audience and how it's best to get that message across for what you know they might be interested in.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Would you say? I do, I do say, and I also think you've hit the nail on the head with yet another point about why it's maybe important to get specialist experience when you're working with influences and and that convergence into your affiliate program is brand reputation and brand management, because a lot of brands resist the urge to work with influencers on social channels because they feel like they don't control their narrative as well. But essentially, I think if you pre-plan and and you pre-curate or uh you can't tell an influencer what to put out there because it's their content, but you can give them guidelines, very strict guidelines in terms of how the brand should be conveyed and how you know whatever it is that they're going to be doing with that content should be curated. So I don't think that that should be something that puts you off. But I do want to talk about the things that sometimes go wrong because that's why people are here listening to us. They actually want to hear the nuts and bolts, the kind of raw deal of you know, this convergence that's happening. Should I, shouldn't I? And when I do, what should I get ready? But what is maybe one of the big lessons that you've learned working in this space for the last eight years that you can maybe share with our audience today? Just something that maybe didn't go the as well as planned and that you learned a valuable lesson from. Oh God. I'm sure that's a good one. In episode 10, where I sat down with Neil Stuchrod from AWIN, we chatted over how and why affiliate marketing is such a great call for small businesses to leverage their growth and how to do this efficiently too. So let's talk about ROI because we now hopefully have convinced small businesses to really take the plunge and start investing in this channel. What are some of the typical ROIs that you can see from brands that launch an affiliate program and what metrics should affiliate managers at these smaller brands be looking at in their first few months of launch? What are the key things that you would advise them to look at in terms of making sure that their program is growing at the pace that it should be as a new program?
SPEAKER_06So overall across the network, we see an ROI of 1 to 90, which uh which I think is very healthy and very good.
SPEAKER_05Is that different in verticals? Is it higher in retail and lower in insurance, for example, or travel or yeah, this really does depend from vertical to vertical, definitely.
SPEAKER_06And it also has to do, of course, with with average order values and these kind of things. But I would say because it is an average, it's a very safe number basically to aim for. However, bear in mind, again, we mentioned patience earlier, really building up a program. So in the first few, let's say three to six months, I would really say most of the time should go into initiating these new partnerships and building those that start generating traffic and sales for you. For the first six months, the four KVIs for me should be click active as sale active partners. Yeah, maybe to explain a little bit more, I don't know what the knowledge level is of the people watching and people being interested. So the click active partners that will tell you that people are actually sending you consumers that are interested in your rent and products. Yeah. And the sale active, that actually is an indicator of what the buy intent is of the people visiting your website and that are being referred by these publishers. But you're gonna need the visitor before you can convert them into a customer, right? So that's why these are two really important APIs, I think, for the first three to six months. So number of click active and sale active partners. And I think from there you can start looking to you know your publisher split and see if there are publishers similar to the ones already performing well for you, and what can you learn from those partners that are performing well for you and duplicate those learnings perhaps to publishers that don't work well for you yet? So there might be partners that uh are sending you traffic, but it might not be converting so well. So I would really recommend to engage in conversation and understand better if there's anything you can do better as a web shop for that publisher so they can send better traffic or if there's other learnings you can take from that. Yeah, and if we speak to some KPIs there, I think down the line, some metrics that are really important obviously are the conversion rate from the different publishers and the different publisher types to really keep an eye out that the traffic they sent is relevant and it basically has a buy-in. Uh, but I would also say the quality of sales, also have a look out on that, yeah, again, that the quality of sales that you see coming in that are good, i.e., that not too many sales are being returned, for example. And um, yeah, I would say for the first yeah, six months, those four I think are really important.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I agree. And the other thing as well is to make sure that the partners that are actively sending customers are sending you the right kinds of customers from the channels that you're not already targeting. So make sure that your affiliate program is actually complementing, you know, customers coming in from channels that you're not targeting directly. And finally, in this last clip that I wanted to share with you as we review the season that has come to an end, I sat down with On Folios Dominic Wells as we spoke about the journey from startup to super affiliate and how affiliate managers can do more to engage with partners and really help them to scale. What do you think affiliate managers should focus on when working with a brand new online site? Because you yourself had this experience as an affiliate when you joined programs and you weren't actually given any attention until you started to actually develop revenue. But what would you recommend that programs can do in that gap when somebody's trying to figure out how to actually drive traffic but hasn't quite got there yet? How much or how little contacts should there be? What can be done to actually nurture that relationship without actually taking up a lot of resource? Because as you said, managers can't work with every single person that comes into the program direct. But what are some of the things that you wish could have been done at that point?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's tough because if you respond to everyone and you know that everyone, then you're not going to have enough time in the day to work with the people who are crushing it and deserve your attention. To some extent, affiliates do need to be self-directed and they need to learn. They shouldn't be spoon-fed. But I think just maybe making yourself more accessible. Because for me, it was like, hey, like I know I'm a beginner, I know I need to figure this out, I know my website's not ranking, I know I've written a review for your product and it's probably average, but could you at least reply to my email? You know, because what new people really need is just encouragement and and kind of access. Now, if someone said, Hey, I'm super busy, I get like a hundred emails a day, I'm not going to reply to you quickly, but I want to see you succeed. Message me if you have any problems or any questions or any ideas, and I'll get to you when I can. That would I think that probably would have satisfied me in the beginning. And also, again, this is probably a bandwidth thing, but the more resources that people can make for affiliates, the better. And a a lot of resources that I saw when I was a beginner, it was just like, yeah, we've got loads of banner ads you can use. And I was like a tutorial, banner ads.
SPEAKER_05There's a time and a place for banner ads, but actually we need to get a little bit more clever about how we create content and leverage our partners to engage audiences.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's interesting as well because I think it sometimes it's not just beginners as well. So I had a website about two years ago that was doing pretty well with the masterclass affiliate program, which is done through share a sales, so it's it should be fairly sophisticated. And in a very quick period, I think I made $10,000 a month in commissions. And so I reached out to the masterclass affiliate manager and was like, hey, is there anything more I can do? Do you have any examples of what's working really well for other affiliates that I can try? Or can you create me a coupon code I can give to my audience to encourage them to sign up? Yeah. And thinking, okay, I'm doing okay. I'm sure there's other affiliates making more than me, but I'm doing okay. And they just replied with a basic article that was like, Yeah, if you want to make more money, you can just rank higher in Google. And I was like, okay.
SPEAKER_05Steven, thanks.
SPEAKER_01Um, never mind. Yeah, I already ranked number one.
SPEAKER_05100% correct. I think you've hit the nail in the head, and I think it's very refreshing to actually hear it from the horse's mouth. Well, there you have it. A simple and quick synopsis to catch you up before we release all of the fantastic content that I've got planned for our next season of the affiliate marketing podcast, which is going to cover the topic of transformation. Everything from how to transform the way you manage your partners to learning about the ecosystem around partnership marketing and how best to leverage that for growing your referral businesses. There's plenty to tune into and listen to and learn from in the next season, which starts soon. I'm really looking forward to having you join me and the array of industry experts that I've invited to come onto the podcast and talk shop around affiliate marketing and affiliate program management.
SPEAKER_11And that's a wrap for this week's Affiliate Insider Affiliate Marketing Podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down in this series, head on over to Apple iTunes and give us a five-star rating and subscribe to our podcast channel so you never miss another insightful episode. Tune in next week for more digital marketing insights and traffic driving tips, tricks, and strategies to keep your digital marketing fresh and your affiliate program driving consistent sales.
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