This is the affiliate marketing podcast. A podcast that helps you deeper dive what's new and trending in affiliate and performance marketing. Whether you're running an affiliate program, managing referral partners, working for an affiliate network, employed at a digital marketing agency, or simply starting your career working in the affiliate and performance marketing industry, this is the only podcast you'll need to stay updated with. To stay updated with expert insights, trends and future predictions from a variety of digital experts helping you navigate and grow your affiliate sales. Now over to Leanne Johnson, the founder of the Affiliate Insider, a performance marketing agency, media and event and training business, an industry veteran with over two decades of experience, and your guide helping you make affiliate marketing simple.
SPEAKER_03So today we're going to delve a little bit deeper into the jargon behind modern search, which is exactly why I wanted to bring Paul on this podcast. And we're going to talk about how to improve working with search-based affiliate partners in the year ahead as we face a significant amount of challenges to overcome whilst we're driving incremental revenue growth for our referral marketing programs. Paul, it is a pleasure to have you on this podcast with me today. Thanks for being here.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Leanne. Great to be here. Looking forward to chatting.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Looking forward to chatting and digging deep into your brain with your many, many years of experience on acquisitions. So before we get started on the questions, I think it would be nice if you just introduce yourself to our audience, talk a little bit about your background and how you landed up coming onto this podcast today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. So as you kind of mentioned, my background is agency side through and through. So I've been kind of within agencies for 18 years now. And I've worked for a range of kind of specialist vertical agencies within the field of kind of recruitment advertising to begin with, where I started my career in kind of an agency called TMP Worldwide, working on recruitment advertising campaigns, digital recruitment advertising campaigns for some of the world's sort of largest brands and banks. Kind of different challenge to what we face today, but still pertinent in the sense that you know acquisition has been a red thread throughout that career ever since kind of way back then. The first role I kind of took on was an ad operations role, actually, with tagging and trafficking, you know, in the world of faults. Yes, exactly, exactly. But it gives you a really good foundation, actually, uh a really good building block. And um search marketing or not so modern search back then was Miva, Mirago. Yahoo was the kind of lead as sort of search engine. And then over time, I um went into another independent agency uh called Walker Media, and we were working on, you know, we had an acquisition team, performance team at the time, you know, going to talk to clients like Barclays Bank about around, you know, what the acquisition strategy should be. And then more recently, I've been kind of working for Publicist Media, which are uh obviously one of the largest holding groups in the world. And I've been part of Publicist Group now for almost 12 years, working for a range of brands within and really the performance function.
SPEAKER_03So the reason why I wanted to bring you on this podcast is because you wrote a really interesting article on modern search and it sort of grabbed my attention. Now, you know, we've got a lot of jargon in this industry, and you've been around since almost the dawn of time, not to give away your age because you started and you're incredibly young like me. But kind of almost two decades in the industry, you've seen a lot of change. You've obviously seen the search channel evolve to what we have today. And I thought it would be a good idea for you to start talking about modern search and giving us a breakdown of what this term really means. But more importantly for my audience, why affiliate managers need to be aware of the changes that are happening in search methodologies, because it directly impacts their programs and the types of partners that they're working with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, more broadly, kind of the modern consumer expects modern marketing. So I think we can almost elevate it beyond search and talk about, you know, what is modern, you know, what does a modern digital program look like today? And how does that, you know, how does that translate to each of the channels? And and in doing so, you know, consumers expect kind of purchases to be made within one click. So you've got like the one-click consumer, you've got consumers looking for answers and more conversational around search queries. And you know, that whole landscape has changed over time, which which brings us to the fore now with modern search. So, you know, from a practitioner's point of view, it means a notch towards trusting the machine a little bit more, you know, machine learning and looking at taking into account pattern matching recognition techniques, but also kind of you know, feeding the machine with signals to deliver an outcome. And I think, you know, for anyone in the industry, that is either really scary because you're relinquishing some control or a really great thing. And I think, you know, I'm leaning towards a really great thing because what it means for practitioners, whether you're working in the affiliate channel or search channel, is how do we create sort of value beyond the machine? How do we, you know, get comfortable with you know working with automation and AI within the functions that that we work in? And how does it enhance our job roles? So, you know, how can we be more strategic and you know, think about how our roles in the industry change to continue to deliver you know value to clients?
SPEAKER_03Okay, there's a couple of things I want to unpack there a little bit because I know that my people are gonna be asking these questions, and my job is to ask the questions for them, all the listeners that are tuning in here. So the first thing is, you know, I've been in the industry as long as you have, and I've always wondered when are we gonna get to that point when humans are no longer gonna be necessary? Are we at that point yet? Because you're talking about AI, and whenever anybody talks about AI, people start to worry like, am I gonna have a job? You know, like am I I'm working in digital as one of the best industries to work in. We're moving forward at a fast, rapid uh pace. We've come from, you know, the beginnings when you and I started to this complex ecosystem that we work in right now. But are we at that point yet? Or are we just kind of touching the surface of AI and how it impacts our digital marketing methodologies?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think the the latter actually. Um I think you know, we've gone from, particularly in search, we've gone from a world of you know, Google best practice back in the day was about making things as granular as possible. So your account structures would be huge and you would, you know, base them around device type or location or whatever it might be. So you'd end up with these huge keyword lists and huge campaigns, and that would give you more control. Nowadays, it's about you know refining, actually having fewer campaigns, feeding the machine with few, you know, a lot more signals, because ultimately, you know, I think the machine can crunch those that those data points quicker in real time than a than a human can. And it's just under being comfortable with that and you know, understanding, you know, how you can continue to add value. So to your point, I think no, we're not at a point where you know machines are going to take over what we do. There's always uh a need for human input, whether that's to strategize, whether that's to align with, you know, to control the machine, to make sure that our outputs are brand safe. You know, a machine can't always determine that 100%. You know, does it align with the brand ethos that particular brand wants to drive? Are we integrating with the broader channel mix? That's human interaction and creativity as well, also comes from humans, right? So I think this is a point in time whereby we need to get comfortable understanding what parts of the machine we want to use, the machine learning and AI, that that add value and maybe eliminate some of the grunt work that you know we don't need to be doing. And then redefining what does the modern practitioner look like? What skill sets do they need? You know, are they more data literate? You know, how do we add value beyond you know, reporting, which can be automated or crunching big data sets? You still need a smart head on that and a smart practitioner to be able to understand what you're doing with that data set. And actually, I think you know, uh job roles are becoming more fulfilling, if anything. You know, if you look out in the the industry, there's still a talent shortage, right? In terms of there's particularly in digital. So I don't think anyone should be worried about that anytime soon.
SPEAKER_03Okay, that's good. So everybody don't panic. What we're gonna talk about is just where searches come from and where it's heading to. And I think there's nobody better placed than you, having seen that over the last kind of two decades, working agency side, which is uh which is also quite unique because uh agencies are always forward thinking, you know, they're always looking to the next thing. So you've always kind of been ahead of the curve in in the roles that you've had. So talk to us a little bit just to set the scene for affiliate managers that are listening to those who work with affiliates who are search-based partners, who are actually doing this kind of marketing in their own businesses to drive referral traffic. Where have we come from with search? So you spoke a little bit earlier about big keyword sets, big, you know, accounts, like and and where are we headed to? So just delve a little bit deeper into that statement that you made earlier and explain to people listening where we are now and what we should be looking at moving forward, because that's kind of why everybody's listening to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think, you know, I think search practitioners and publishers and anyone working in the landscape still need to kind of keep the core premise of you know, what makes a good website? It's about having relevant content, it's about making sure that your site is helpful, whether that's allaying uh anxieties in terms of electric vehicle, how do I drive an electric car? You know, will I get electrocuted if it rains? Like, you know, these things come up in search queries today, believe it or not. So I think, you know, the the core premise is ensuring that the customer experience is still pertinent and relevant. I think, you know, you can't get away from that, and we should never get away from that. But I think in terms of, you know, the core premise, you know, make sure that your content is helpful, it's relevant on website, it's voice-enabled, i.e., for conversational type queries, which we'll probably get onto at some point. You know, make sure it's future-facing and discoverable content. So are you ranking in the right places? Is your website maximizing the core vitals within from an SEO point of view?
SPEAKER_03Talk a little bit about that because affiliate managers that are listening here, half the time they don't even know how to review an affiliate site to see if they are actually doing these best practices. So talk a little bit about what that means exactly, web vitals and all the things that you've just mentioned.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I I I think it's essentially making sure that you know content is king, it's relevant, you're optimized for new innovations or developments in the landscape. You're making sure that you know your sites are mobile enabled, that they are, you know, structured in the right way for the user, there's easy navigation, and that, you know, mobile load times are a big factor in in some of these kind of algorithmic rewards that Google will give you or asserts it will give you. So I think it's, you know, those things are unlikely to change. You know, people are we are living in a world where, you know, every moment matters and people want to get to information very quickly. And they're quite, you know, we're quite demanding as consumers now. And I think, you know, your website and you know, that your paid programs that you run have to meet that need in the most efficient and effective manner.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So as affiliate managers, you need to be making sure that your sites that you're approving into your program are actually following these best practices because that will actually help you with your own SEO number one, but also it'll help you drive the right types of traffic. And you'll know that this partner will be able to actually deliver value in your program too, if they're following all of these methodologies. Now, where are we heading to? So we've come with big keyword lists, big accounts, you know, lots of manual management. Let's talk a little bit about this AI and modern search as you're as you're describing it, so that people can just really understand the breakdown of where we're heading to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so. Modern search is is is kind of the it's a it's a range of kind of tactics or strategies that you could deploy within platform, basically, to drive the machine.
SPEAKER_03Um Platform is talking about Google or Yahoo or being search engines from a from a pay point of view.
SPEAKER_01And that means having greater consolidation of account structures, so not big keyword lists and big structures, greater consolidation and more focus around kind of the top revenue-driving keywords and applying signals to those.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So what do you mean by signals?
SPEAKER_01So signals that consumers are giving off, whether they visited certain sites, whether you've inputted first-party data, you know, it will build out cohorts based on certain segments of behaviors and context. So the machine is able to take all of those signals on to ensure that the bidding and the placement of that particular creative is in the right place. There's more movement towards automation. There's a couple of other things as well. So we spoke about the balance between human and the machine. I think we need to get that balance right. Um, and then there's smart bidding options, and just by kind of you know, its name alone, by not using those options within kind of programs, it it kind of makes you think that you're not doing the right thing, right? So Google have labeled this technique smart bidding, which alters your bid depending on, you know, whether you're in the shopping landscape or you know, you're trying to drive commerce through YouTube, but it's an automated way of uh delivering bids. And then finally, I touched upon kind of first-party data to inform decisioning. This is where it becomes really interesting for publishers as well. So, how are we use utilizing that first party data? I think that's going to become a lot more pertinent moving into kind of next few years, really, because you know, how are you ensuring that you understand those audiences that you're providing relevant content and being helpful? And almost bidding to value. So the the concept of lifetime value is you know something that it is coming to the fore now. And it's is a balance between a short-term game, which is okay, let me hit this CPA target, and actually, is this gonna be a long-term customer that I want to deliver relevant communications to over a you know a seven, eight-year period?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, we work across multiple different verticals in our agency, and lifetime value is very much a component of everything that an iGaming company does and has always been. And I know you're gonna smile at that, but it is quite interesting to see how other industries are now moving past that CPA model of just get the customer in the first time to make that purchase. And let's see how we can partner with our partners to actually build value over time and really take the data that affiliates are giving us in terms of what they see for buyer behavior and buyer awareness in that kind of funnel that that plugs through and how that can help across all the other digital channels that they're they're working with too. And and search has really always been the most well-established channel in digital. It's it's certainly the oldest channel in digital, but we're starting to see affiliate marketing kind of move up as a popular channel of choice next to search. And now we're starting to only see 20 years later, departments in each actually working collaboratively together. The learnings that can be derived from both, which have usually always sat in silos, is now becoming quite interesting because the data allows us to see this. And that is because of the AI that is coming into our space and how we can use these tools. Now, you briefly spoke a little bit about tools before. Are there any sort of tools that are being used in modern search? I mean, everybody knows the, you know, the bog standards, the SEM Rush, the Similar Web, the Publisher Discovery, you know, all of these tools that are out there. But are there like key tools that maybe affiliate managers should be looking at in terms of adopting modern search approaches to approving affiliates, to work, you know, identifying affiliates that could maybe be driven a little bit harder? What's happening in that space?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think there's a couple there's a couple of things that come to mind. The first thing is, you know, tools that allow you to integrate your paid and organic search for overall benefit. So you're not cannibalizing and it's AI driven, so machine learning based on the potential outcome or visibility of a brand. I think that's an important component and you know, something that could be applied within the kind of affiliate space. I think in terms of parallels between the two channels, you're right. I think the teams are working a lot closer together now and you know, sharing search data sets to understand, you know, intent of users, starting to work together to understand, you know, what share of search they should should have. How almost like um where should you play and how should you win? So should the affiliate publishers and partners own voucher code terms and discount terms? And how does a brand sort of dovetail with that? And you know, what does that look like in the shopping landscape? So within Google, so the CSS comparison shopping service landscape, you know, should we double up? Should we give the affiliate the rein to lead in that space? And obviously, Google allow for a 20% discount if you're operating in that space. So it's a it's a win-win for a brand kind of running advertising in that space. And then broader than that, I think there are parallels in terms of how the two teams could work together. So within a search practitioner's world, you can create something called scripts, which is basically JavaScript that allows you to automate certain functions, whether that's my landing page has gone offline, alert send me an alert so we can pause all activity on the fly or you know, aggregate this type of data for me on a Monday because I need it to give to a trade meeting, you know, a retailer for a trade meeting. I think from uh an affiliate point of view, you know, there are parallels in terms of publisher selection. So, you know, how do you mine out that long tail of affiliates? Can we streamline that process through workflows and automated algorithms that can start to say, okay, you know, you want to build out your in a travel vertical, these types of publishers who are out there, who are new? Do they follow these types of parameters in terms of, you know, is it a brand safe website? Does it give the right content? How do we start to automate some of that stuff and build out kind of the program from there?
SPEAKER_03And is there is there overlap between what we do in the affiliate channel with search-based partners or or you know, SEO type um affiliate or content partners? We've got so much jargon in our industry, honestly, half the time I don't even know what to say. Um, or or should there be a definitive separation between the strategy that you're doing for your own direct brand search and the strategy that you're allowing your affiliate partners to do on the long tail?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think it needs to that they need to work together ultimately for incremental benefit. Everything should leverage up to an incremental benefit. And, you know, it's trying to work towards this notion of business outcomes and not necessarily just in-platform metrics, which are important but can be stifling. And it is that balance between, you know, working with the two channels or broader channels to understand are we delivering overall business outcomes? It, you know, that can be determined through broader measurement strategies, whether that's MMM or kind of econometric studies.
SPEAKER_03And I think that's very key what you've just said there, because a lot of the time affiliate teams are being tasked with KPIs to meet, and they're being told, well, you know, the world is your canvas, go and get any kind of partner, whether it's an SEO partner, an influencer, mobile app developer, like whatever, you know, however your partner matrix is made up, uh, coupon site, whatever the case may be. But then there's also no clear dis definitive description about, you know, rules and strategies. Every program I've ever worked in has different strategies about different things, depending on what they're doing in other channels. So it actually ends up becoming a very difficult channel, if I want to call it that, to manage, because every there's no set rules, like this is how you operate an affiliate program, because they are now encompassing. There's there's like this line of convergence that's happening between all sorts of types of uh partners in traffic. It's also the reason why I wanted to get you on this podcast, because affiliate managers need to know about modern search and they need to start understanding what is going to impact them and their decision making based on what their search counterparts are doing on brand. We know that AI is a hot topic as well. We know that it's going to be driving ROI. We've we've talked a little bit about tools and strategies and methodologies. But what else is developing in search that's driving AI? Because is Google still the only place to go and get traffic, or are there other platforms like podcast platforms and Clubhouse and voice search that's coming into play now? Let's let's maybe now's a good time to talk about voice. What are the things that we need to be looking at in terms of our strategies and in terms of how we speak versus how we type a search?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think you know, the the more and more we talk, the more and more you have to realize that the affiliate channel is a great place to be because you get exposed to so much, right? I know we're talking about voice in a moment, but if you think about you know how affiliates can translate through the funnel, you know, you're talking about influencer strategies. How does that play a part? So you're talking about social, you're talking about search, you're talking about SEO, you're talking about display, but you know, you're talking about content, the array of all marketing activity, and it's not just foundational, it's a critical part of the overall piece. Now, to your point around voice, again, I think you know, the affiliate affiliate managers out there and anyone that's that's listening should understand that you know you can play a real critical role in an overall program within kind of voice. So, you know, smart devices or home speakers now, I think the penetration is around 55% in the UK, which is massive. And that's predominantly kind of the Amazon Alexa and Google Home. And I think the penetration is highest amongst millennials and Gen Xs, but increasing across the board. So I think, you know, from an affiliate marketing point of view, you know, there there's a way of driving integrated campaigns whereby you can use speakers. I think one of the pizza brands used uh an example really uh recently, whereby there was an audio ad running that drove you to an offer based on a smart speaker device that would then ping you with the discount code to your kind of phone. You then transact online, and that would just Complete the cycle, which is a really seamless, almost conversation to commerce campaign that was run. And I think it's really successful. I think it might have been Pizza Hut.
SPEAKER_03Well, that doesn't surprise me because I mean I've just recently been looking at podcast stats and conversion rates. And as humanoids, we are now very, very audio aware. Like five, six years ago, we weren't listening to audio, we were watching video. And then video times got shorter and shorter. And now there's actually really good stats to prove that audio is a very good converter because we take action when we hear something. When somebody tells us to do something versus when somebody shows us to do something, the psychological difference between that is actually, you know, vastly different. So I can see how that's working, but I mean, are we at the point where where you, in your experience and and working across search, have you seen publishers or brands really starting to kind of invest big money into voice search type sites that are ranking only on voice? Give us some insights to that.
SPEAKER_01I think you know the voice um enabled websites need to cater for two things, really. So that's definitely a thing. You know, websites need to be voice ready now, which means that they need to answer the kind of location-based or quick questions that someone might have and also answer the kind of FAQs and the conversational type queries that are coming through. So optimize for that type of content because you know, we've moved away from you know, back in the day where it was more of a robotic impetor. You know, you you'd search, you know, people don't search in that way anymore, or they're they're far less likely to kind of uh use a search query, you know, London hotel. They'll want to know, post that query, specific details about the room size, you know, the number of beds, does it have a bar? You know, does it allow for a swimming pool? Like all of these things. I think, you know, thinking about the affiliate channel and publishers out there, you need to make sure that your website is obviously voice ready and discoverable for voice type queries because they're going through the roof at the moment. And it's just, you know, a new way, a new expectation from consumers in a new way of navigating the modern world.
SPEAKER_03Now, I don't know a lot about SEO. I know a little bit about SEO, that's why I've got you on this podcast. But where can we look for voice search stats? Like, does Google tell you how many voice searches have actually happened in a particular channel? Can you use the keyword linking tool? Like, does it work in the same way?
SPEAKER_01You can start to decipher kind of there are no like ready stats, but you can start to decipher conversational-based queries coming through. So when they're more conversational based, you can start to ascertain, you know, that's more aligned with a conversation that someone might be having, and then align your content to that and build your program around how that might translate on site and answer a consumer need. So I know we spoke about the silly example before about electric cars, but you know, there's a lot of anxiety around electric vehicles at the moment. And you know, we're moving to a world of connected cars and automation and is probably ahead of where consumers are ready for at the moment. So there's a massive tension point between technology and what people are ready for. So, you know, can websites or content be used to bridge that gap? And I think that's where you know educational content comes into play, and we start thinking about beyond driving actual purchase, but building kind of resonance and taking a position in the market for certain brands that that want to.
SPEAKER_03So I want to flip the switch now and talk about publishers and affiliate partners who are tuning into this podcast this week. What are some of the big trends that you're seeing on the agency side that can potentially help affiliates level up? So guys that are currently doing search, but maybe not looking at all of this AI. And similarly, for brands that you're working on right now that you think they should be at least looking at or investigating as part of their business strategy to grow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think look, we're entering a global recession, right? So I think, you know, movement towards an outcome. I think we're going to see movement towards more of an outcomes-based model, which I think, you know, anyone in acquisition should be really well versed to tell that story. And I think, you know, you know, that's about revenues and margins are going to be squeezed over the next sort of six to twelve months. We know that the cost of living is going up. You know, I think brands and advertisers are going to feel that that pressure. And I think, you know, this is where the affiliate channel, which is, you know, very accountable, can come into play and start to deliver that kind of broader outcomes-based model to clients. So I think that's definitely something that is on the horizon if it's not already there. You know, we are seeing other trends which bug that. So, you know, travel is back.
SPEAKER_03Well, I heard on the radio this morning, I think Tui said that they had 78% of pre-COVID bookings for winter holidays, which is a m it's phenomenal. Like it's just totally come back. Even though we're looking at a cost of living crisis here in the UK, and it's on the news every time you switch on the radio or or the telly, people are still investing and going back to their old traditions. Maybe they're a little bit more savvy about where they spend. And that could also be something that you get your search partners to help in in that bioawareness journey. But I think you're right. I think, you know, it's going to be interesting to see how affiliates come in and actually take that gap between conversational queries that you spoke about earlier and start to actually motivate to drive traffic in those niches.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. And I think there's a role for you know the affiliate partners to play throughout the funnel. I know we spoke about automation before, you know, what the future might look like, but Google are coming out with something called Performance Max, which is effectively you drop a budget into the system, you talk about what CPA you are working towards, and the machine will try and find those audiences and optimize to that level. If we apply that thinking to the affiliate channel, you know, you can see how you know you might want to build out a full final approach in affiliates and start to use some machine learning to crunch that data and build a media plan for you, basically. You still need the human element to build the relationships to have the strategy. And I think that's that's really interesting. I think that's where it could could end up.
SPEAKER_03I think you can never really get away from the relationship side on affiliates because you you you're working with other humans who are business owners as well. They're independent entrepreneurs in their own right. So I don't think that you can ever automate that process, but you can use the AI and the data segments that are available now across channels to improve the relationships that you build and the commercials that you actually ultimately give. Let's talk a little bit about search and PPC, because a lot of if a lot of clients that I speak to, they sometimes want to hinder what affiliates who do PPC and search do in their programs. Do you think that they should have clear differentials of what they allow affiliates to do? Or do you think that we should actually open that up a little bit now, considering that there are so many multiple different niches that we want to kind of get our brand into, and leveraging that on a performance basis is not necessarily a bad thing. What's your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think look, it ultimately comes back to driving incrementality and working together to ensure there's no cannibalization. But I think there should be some sort of guardrails and rules in place for both sets of kind of practitioners and channels to operate together. And I think, you know, there's a clear kind of anything discount-led, any anything voucher-led, you know, uh an advertiser shouldn't really be playing in that space. And I feel it's they should be comfortable with the notion that, you know, publishers are going to take that because their content is geared towards that. But there could be strategic reasons as to why you want to, you know, double up on certain areas and own strategically a certain vertical or a certain destination if it's travel. Um, there could be strategic brand reasons as to why the two play together. And it's about you know having a robust measurement framework off the back of it to ensure that you know what you're driving is a strategically important for the business, but B, you know, delivering an incremental outcome. And I think that's that's the key. That's the holy grail. That's where you know everyone's trying to get to ultimately.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Do you think search is gonna still play a really big part of budgets in the future? Or do you think that as other channels evolve, social influencer, you know, um affiliate, do you think that you're gonna see money being spread more evenly? Because traditionally, uh as far as I've seen the market, search has always had the biggest part of the budget. Like it really has been driven, you know, it's always been the kind of the unicorn channel, like everything gets thrown at search, right? It's always the most important. But do you think that's gonna change as we see data become more clear across all the different verticals? Or what's your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01Uh I I think it was will always be a mature, mature channel that there will be significant investment in it. What I think will change and is starting to change is the merging of channels and capabilities. So, you know, if you look at kind of the search landscape today and what Google are coming out with, you know, there's something called Discovery Ads, which are a social play. Our worlds are naturally converging, actually. And it's less about channels, it's more about more about, you know, find me this particular audience trait or these types of audiences. So maybe less about the channels, breaking out the swim lanes of channel-based activity and actually thinking a bit broader around, you know, business outcomes and how do we how do we deliver business outcomes and how do we prove that out so that we can, you know, move away from this kind of accountancy-led model, which only allows you to play in certain spaces, um, which isn't you know potentially future-facing or a long-term approach.
SPEAKER_03Which is actually quite interesting because most companies' marketing teams are dictated to by the accountancy teams and the finance teams. And I don't know, if you listen to Chelsea, you can see both of us are shaking our head. But I think that methodology internally in big brands is also gonna change a little bit where we're gonna start to actually give marketers the budget to hold and to manage and to spend as we see fit without other teams, you know, contributing in on what so ownership is gonna become more important as well in terms of and hopefully please, you know, Lord above, more training for people in the digital space because I'm a big believer that we hire people into this industry, but we don't support them to grow and to learn with everything that's changing around us. And you and I can both testify to that. We've been in the industry 20 years. We never stop learning. We never stop learning our craft. It's not like a doctor which, you know, learns the physical anatomy and then that's it, it stays the same, right? It doesn't ever evolve. So it's it's really is a full-time job. And I always say that this is a vacation. And and you've certainly built a stellar career out of you know your your vacation in in certain acquisition. And I've certainly done the same in in affiliate marketing. So to all the newbies out there that are listening to this, you know, there's there's nothing but excitement to look forward to when you step into this space, but you're gonna need to continue learning all the time. Now, as a veteran and uh and uh steer away from saying expert. Well, uh steer away from using expert, because when you say expert, people seem to think that you need to know everything about everything, but we simply can't because we're still busy learning everything that's happening. What's the one cliffhanger piece of advice that you'd be giving to anybody listening in today about acquisition and performance and modern search and the transformation that is taking place in this channel for want of a better word? What should they focus on to make the bigger goals happen for them as they face, you know, this this challenging here that we're going to be looking at ahead?
SPEAKER_01Can I give two?
SPEAKER_03You can give five if you want to. How can I hold you back?
SPEAKER_01I I think the first one is um we've touched upon it today on the on the podcast, but try and think about, you know, a world where you know there's cookie deprecation on the horizon, where there's an impending kind of recession, there's things like you know, legislation changes around privacy, HFSS, you know, all of these things are impacting the industry. Think about how you can start to drive business outcomes for clients as opposed to like media metrics. I think if you can start to get involved in those conversations, from now, I think you you know you're you're preparing yourself for a future-facing conversation. I think the other thing is, you know, to your point, embrace the change because it's you know, throughout the last kind of 18 years, you know, agencies have had to reinvent themselves and the industry is reinventing itself, and you've got to be on your toes and hungry to learn. And I think as long as you're ready to apply yourself, if we go back kind of five years, there was a massive threat of consultancies coming into the media space. So agencies had to rethink their approach, you know. These kind of developments, whether micro, macro, are not going to stop. And I think the industry is almost like a living, breathing ecosystem that keeps changing, which is good because it keeps you on your toes and it's a great place to be, but you need to be comfortable with the notion of change.
SPEAKER_03And I think that is very good advice because this industry is cyclical. History does repeat itself. I have lived through one recession in affiliate marketing, and I'm pretty sure with the years that you've gonna have to live through the same period, you're not giving away our age. But things do change very quickly. And those of us that have had, you know, multiple years of experience, and that's kind of also why I wanted to have you on this podcast, we do need to share our insights around living through those periods because they are going to repeat over time. They are gonna be different because we've got way more data than what we had last time. We kind of had to react to the fly, but now uh you know, elder people in this industry, we kind of know what to expect and we already pre-planning and thinking about that. And the other thing that you that you touched on that I just wanted to say, yes, agencies have to reinvent themselves, but the key reason why agencies exist is to be forward-thinking and to provide that insight to their clients. So, you know, whether you hire an agency for six months or just for a consulting piece, I would always recommend that if you're gonna start out in a channel, if you're gonna go and invest in building, you know, search or building affiliate marketing or trying to build both of them together at the same time, get an agency involved to actually direct you so that you save time, money, and wasted spend. I mean, that's kind of why we are where we are in our careers, because we've actually done all of those mistakes and now we we can tell our clients how to avoid them too. I don't know if that's the same way that you feel having worked agency side 16 years.
SPEAKER_01Oh, definitely, definitely. And you've, you know, the agency model is so flexible, right? It can be, you know, you you can incubate certain activities for a period of time, help them scale, and then hand the hand those activities over to you know the advertiser or client. It can be full management, it could be all of those things. But you know, we've got kind of the broader experience of how the verticals are changed, deep vertical experience, you know, you know, to your point, history repeating itself. They say to spend through a recession because the brands that do actually are the ones that come out on top if you can, you know, try and avoid this sort of scaling back. So totally agree. Um, and I think you know, you're right, it's it's cyclical and you know, need to buckle up at certain times, but you know, the good times are the good times.
SPEAKER_03And also focus on the outcomes. You know, why are you doing this and who are you doing it for? And what is the end result that you want to achieve? I think if you ask yourself those three questions, you can never really go wrong with your strategy.
SPEAKER_01Totally agree with that. And I think, you know, bring clients on the journey and just try and enjoy what you do because I think that's the trick, really. And we're very, like, very fortunate to work in such a progressive kind of industry, you know. Uh I think it's it's interesting, it's progressive. There's a wealth of kind of demands on learning, but I think it's rewarding. And, you know, if you know what you're aiming for and you're clear on your objectives, I think, you know, it's a really good place to be.
SPEAKER_03Paul, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on this podcast, just sharing all of your insights on the transformation of modern search and what that means for us here in affiliate marketing. And I really hope to see you um on our podcast again soon talking about search again. But thank you so much for your time this week.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Dan. It's been an absolute pleasure.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's a wrap for this week's affiliate marketing podcast. If you love what we're sharing, why not head over to Apple iTunes now and leave us a five-star review? Doing this helps us reach more people just like you. And we'd love to hear your feedback too. While you're there, make sure to hit subscribe, join our podcast channel so you never miss another insightful episode, and leave us a comment so we know what you're thinking. Want to amplify your affiliate program performance? The Amplify Virtual Summit is brought to you by Affiliate Insider. Save these dates, 17th to 18th of January 2023, for your calendar now and book your free ticket to come and join us as we explore all the latest digital and affiliate marketing trends. This is not a sales pitch virtual event. So you'll get nothing but great advice and a chance to network with agencies, networks, SaaS, and Martech to provide what we call an insider's scoop on how to amplify your affiliate program and partner performance. Plus, you'll get exclusive access to expert-led in-depth master classes, group coaching, and ask me anything sessions with experts who will show and tell you how to implement tools and tactics helping you save time and money to get consistent results. Get your free ticket to join us at Amplify now. Visit www.affiliateinsider.com and click on events to register.
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