Leanne Johnson. Leanne, over to you.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to this week's Affiliate Marketing Podcast with me, your host, Leanne Johnston. And joining me today is none other than Phil Pearson, Chief Operations Officer of the iGaming Group in Malta, and probably one of the most outspoken people I've ever met in this industry. And somebody who feels the same as me about the importance of compliance and regulation in affiliate and partner marketing. Phil, it's a pleasure to have you on this podcast today. I think we're going to have a lot of fun together. So thank you very much for being here with me.
SPEAKER_02Oh, thanks for inviting me. And yeah, for sure. I mean, we spoke at an event together, and that was that was a lot of fun. We had some of the same opinions. So I'm excited.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. Right. So before we get started, for everybody that's tuning in and listening every week, I like to get our guests to just tell us a little bit about their backstory, how they landed up into the world of, and I'm going to say partnership marketing because I think the word affiliate is quite archaic. And we did talk about this a little bit at the event that we were at together a couple of weeks back. But tell us how you landed up in the iGaming industry and what makes you passionate about the growth of this industry.
SPEAKER_02And then I thought I was, it's a lot of interest to me in how the sites worked, how the operators worked, how you got around kind of local licensing and global licensing in a way. So I moved to Malta just to assume to take the best job I could find, interviewed a couple of places and chose where I am now and started as head of sales and signing white label casinos.
SPEAKER_00And what did you do before you got into the iGaming industry? Because I think that's always an interesting story. And everybody always says I landed up here by accident. So what led you there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I used to work as a either a sales manager or a head of sales in marketing. So it would have been either I worked with Google AdWords for a long time, um, working for an authorized Google reseller and authorized being a keyword, not dodgy. And then from there, I worked at Sage, the bookkeeping company, for a while, selling online Sage products, and then went to telecoms and broadband. And no, I um I got fired from that job for a very good reason that I refused to fire a pregnant woman a week, a week before she went on maternity leave to save the company maternity money. So I may have called my boss uh a swear word, which I'm not sure I can use on this podcast, so I won't. And um yeah, and then that was the end of that job. And then I thought, hmm, okay, I know where it's probably better for people, Malta.
SPEAKER_00It's a bit of a hub, isn't it? For iGaming, but also for digital marketing as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'm quite surprised every time I go there, I know I'm gonna be there in a few weeks' time, just how big this industry is becoming and how quickly it's actually moving as well. So one of the things that we kind of connected with over the last couple of weeks is that we were both in Malta together at the iGaming Next conference in Valletta. And we had a very interesting panel, which I actually wanted to sort of continue that discussion with. Because in the iGaming industry, for those of you that don't work in the sector and are listening to this podcast, we have had a very big change that happened over the last couple of weeks in terms of uh Twitch streamers that were being shut down, which were quite a big traffic source for casino brands predominantly. So talk to us a little bit about what your thoughts are on kind of streaming and social platforms and influences being used in the casino community. And what do you think this segment of the affiliate industry should be doing to improve marketing efforts to comply with better standards of advertising online?
SPEAKER_02That's such a vague question, but we can we can go with it. I mean, in my opinion, I I like Twitch. Twitch is a fun medium, you get to interact with people. I understand that it actually stops some people from gambling. I've got no issue with people streaming on Twitch or watching Twitch. My only issue was the fact that the streamers doing it were also streaming to under 18-year-olds that were also streaming gaming content. So that was the big problem.
SPEAKER_00It's a huge problem for our industry because everybody in the industry does want to be working compliantly with partners, but with the advent of social media channels, which are not built for our, you know, maybe sensitive information. Our content curators are using these platforms without any guidelines and without any understanding of how that content is being streamed and shared out to the world because we do forget when we're on a on a content panel or on a on a social media platform that everything that we post is actually being viewed by thousands and thousands of people and it stays out there forever. And there's a big move for social platforms to actually become more compliant and to regulate the content that comes through that. So, what are your thoughts on the social media channels taking more of an active approach in terms of monitoring what gets through their channels?
SPEAKER_02I mean, in a way, I think some of the bigger ones, Facebook, Twitter, generally do that. They obviously, but the thing is they know their ages of their people. So they can they can tailor those out. Twitch knows the ages of the people signing up generally, but refuses to do so. So I think in this case, the the only real solution you have here is the Amazon or Twitch or any other streaming platform to actually put in an age gate verification or a validation of their account using any sort of document through any of the tools available in order to watch gaming content, to watch SWAS or Casino or Poker or something. And to do that is is incredibly simple. It's it's 69 cents, you can buy it from anywhere, and you can take it off the streamers off their uh subscriptions or donations or bids or whatever. It's it's cost effective and it basically keeps them out of a lot of trouble and means that we can have an entire medium used for the right purposes for letting people watch new content and get to know the streamers that they like and that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because we do have this culture of having and and even little children, they they're watching other players play games. We have this kind of voyeurism that's happening in social where everybody wants to follow, you know, somebody that's authentic or real to them. But there is no accountability for who is controlling the content that gets streamed. Is it the actual content streamer? So is it the fact that as brands we need to educate the content curators within our affiliate programs? Or is it actually the platform provider that allows that content to be streamed through? Or is it a mix of all of us that need to actually take responsibility for what we're pushing out there?
SPEAKER_02Definitely a mix, but I mean, with the amount of people just watching other people do things, I'm gonna set up a Twitch stream with my desk and people can just watch me work for eight hours and I'm I might I might start charging, it'd be a lot of fun. No, I think Twitch age gating for sure is definitely helpful. I also think that content creators affiliates could do a lot more. Like you see on a lot of forums, are you over the age of 18? Yes, no.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I I refuse to believe anyone in the history of all time has ever clicked no. It's it's like it just makes no sense that that is the definition of what a regulator thinks is acceptable.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I mean, there's a lot more that could be done self-regulating wise by the affiliate, by the hosting company.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But also at the same time, the UKGC, MGA, even Curacao at this rate, they could simply put something into effect that means this has to happen.
SPEAKER_00So, what do you think the fallout is gonna be now that these social channels are taking the stance to actually limit what content curators put out there? I mean, for you know, for some brands, Switch streamers represent quite a big chunk of their traffic and in terms of new business that's coming in. So, what do you think the fallout is gonna be?
SPEAKER_02I we're not, it's a bit early, but from so far, the main ones on stake.com have gone to that other streaming company beginning with the D, whose name I can't remember off the top of my head. But I know a couple of people were tweeting that they were going live on there in the next coming days or last week. So that's already started. When it comes to Twitch and the actual big community itself, I think we're gonna see a more of a push towards the regulated sites, towards the big name streamers that are playing smaller stakes, real money, verifying, being responsible, like actually trying to look after the people in the chat. So I think that will grow quite a lot over the next few months. I think that also slot streaming in a way will get less popular because there are less channels and there are less people with 200,000 views at any time. Like, who was it, the train wreck guy saying he made $360 million in the last 16 months? I don't think that'll be a thing anymore. I I think it will keep going. There's always going to be an audience for someone if they want something. Like there's somewhere on the internet you could buy assault rifles for a very long time. There's gonna be somewhere for everyone. But can we regulate it? I think yes, but people need to get a bit more educated as to what the actual problem is rather than just deciding, yeah, it's just limiting it without actually understanding what they're limiting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, the thing is, you know, as brands, we have a responsibility to create terms and conditions that dictate exactly where and how our brand is going to be promoted. We need to give opportunities for new channels to be explored. So for example, Twitch was the big favorite, but you know, what about TikTok? They are still streamers that are on TikTok, they're not acting responsibly, then you know, they're building audiences around things that don't allow the audience to be kind of age-verified. And yes, while the onus is on, you know, TikTok to monitor the content that's going through their platform, it's also our job as a brand to monitor what our partners are doing. And we have the tracking solutions in place to actually ensure that that is done. There are also various compliance tools that can be plugged into affiliate programs to make sure that content is being put out there in a positive and relevant way. So I do feel like there needs to be a little bit of ownership. There needs to be a state of ownership instead of every party in the journey between a brand and a customer just putting their hands up, going, well, you know, it's not my job, it's not my job. I don't know how you feel about that.
SPEAKER_02No, I agree. I mean, there's a funny story. This is going to sound prepared, but it's not. I actually just learned about this the other day. There's a woman on Twitch who streamed and has like 20,000 people. She doesn't stream anything good. She's just her talking to people and wearing provocate provocative plugins.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's the best way I can describe it. She had an underwear malfunction and accidentally flashed a tiny part of herself for a split second. Yeah. And she got closed down for five days within 20 minutes of that happening.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_02And that is that is how serious Twitch takes nudity, let's say.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But Twitch is honestly absolutely okay with streamers pushing underage gambling to 200,000 people at any one time, says more about the lack of knowledge and people's morals than it does about what they're actually capable of doing, to me. So it it's I find it very wrong and very backwards.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So how do we tackle this? I mean, you know, the state of the nation in the affiliate industry has always been, you know, kind of like let it go and then fix it later. Or we've always kind of tested new boundaries and you know, allowed affiliates to do things where they see loopholes and then try to kind of regulate it later in terms of our terms and conditions. But how do we actually engage with these social platforms to actually get them to come to the table and actually discuss with us what regulation could look like within their infrastructure and within their platform builds?
SPEAKER_02I mean, this is it's a million-dollar questions. It's it's not impossible to do it, it's just really difficult. So, I mean, as a as a unity and as a community, we could do it together, but the odds of that happening are about zero because nobody wants to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So there's an opportunity here for anybody that's listening that wants to kind of sit down and educate and talk about these things to actually come together. And I'm quite happy to kind of facilitate that and and get people talking about what could be done in terms of program management, in terms of you know, content curators that are coming into this partnership economy that we were talking about. But there's also things that the gaming industry needs to put in place in in terms of self-regulating, which you've been talking about. So, how do brands, I mean, you you create white labels uh for your casino partners. Have you got strict rules for for using your platform perhaps that can also implement and and help to regulate these sorts of things?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, being honest, we have our platforms regulated, Curacao and MGA. So on the Curacao side, not as much, but we still have a team in place because Curaceo is starting to regulate quite heavily on responsible gambling now.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um, we've got a team set up there working with a new MLRO. On MGA, it's quite strict. So we have strict thresholds in place, we don't abuse those. We have Jumio, which is a document verifying tool verifying everybody, we do sanctions checks on signups, pet checks as well for politically exposed people. You literally do as much checking as we can without stopping people playing. But the only way I think this can work for me is if all of the regulators get together and have the same deal, because then it isn't beneficial to go with one or the other, or you end up on unlicense, which is that when you sign up, you have to implement one of a few different systems and you have to submit a passport or driving license or something. That is incredibly cheap. People won't be doing it for like free sign-up offers because you won't be offering them anymore.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it's it's the only way to 100% stop kind of this problem from happening, and also then if the people are watching it on Twitch, they can't really sign up anywhere. So that defeats half of those problems.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about regulation because I know the US has been a massively hot topic in iGaming for the last couple of years. But I mean, I wanted to get your take on it because you obviously work with multiple different brands, you know, across multiple different regions. Do you still feel that the US is the land of milk and honey that brands and affiliates should be chasing after? Or do you think the regulation is just too strict there for businesses to actually really make a profit? What's your thoughts on the US?
SPEAKER_02I I think it's strict. I mean, it's a market we don't do, but it's a market I've been following on like there's a lot of podcasts about it, like iGaming Next and a lot of things about it. It's it's a good market for reputation for sure. Like the people going there that are partnering with MGM or selling their companies to these big Vegas casinos are making a lot of money and doing a lot of good things. But is it going to be the most profitable place in the world? Probably not, because I mean the populations of Germany, Sweden, and the UK and France combined are more than there is in the USA. So it's a marketing thing, it's the fact that there are a lot of rich people, the IPs there. And taxable-wise, I think it's risky. I I don't see the value of going there, which is why we haven't. I would prefer to stay in the not easier regulated markets, but the ones where you don't have to completely adjust your whole plan for the next two years.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It just seems like everybody jumped in at the same time thinking they would be the first, and they kind of crowded themselves out of the market. Like right now, we're probably one of two or three decent white label MGA operators that are left because they've all sold that aspect of the business. So it's great for our business because we chose to kind of stay and mop up all of the inquiries that want to stay here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay. So US is a little bit tricky at the moment, I think. But what about all the MAs and buyouts and mergers that you've just mentioned right now? With a huge market or with huge market share being gained, do you think that this trend is positive in the industry or do you foresee this causing problems as affiliates look to exit and sell to bigger media owners? Because then we're going to start seeing a monopoly on content and traffic, basically. And does that change and shift the dynamics of how affiliate programs are going to be operating in years to come?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I would hope not. I mean, generally, if every time someone gets bought out, a replacement comes in pretty quickly. So like evolution was for a long time the only live casino provider. And then obviously pragmatics up and coming. You have another couple of things like Logics doing something. There are more people building more things to take the place of the monopolies. Ironic monopoly with evolution. And they the same for affiliates. I mean, there's a couple of companies buying up all of these smaller affiliate sites, buying up the small casinos that they own, which nobody really talks about. And you talk about which is why we're here. And yeah, at the same time, other forms of kind of expression are coming out. Like three or four years ago, TikTok wasn't a thing. And now it's it's a place to stream, it's a place to generate a lot of traffic. Social media influences are the same. I mean, you've got Drake streaming fake casinos doing that just so I don't get sued. And if that's where we're going now, I think there's always going to be enough kind of dynamic change within the industry to keep it relevant and to stop especially the rate that we're growing. Like compared now to 10 years ago, the whole industry is completely different. Like we didn't have any kind of advanced slot mechanics, we didn't have social media, we didn't have um automated verification on casinos. Now we have all of this stuff. In 10 years' time, when these investments the big companies have made are coming to fruition, the iGaming industry is going to be completely different again. It's possible by then every single market will have its own license, which will be an absolute nightmare for everyone. But only the biggest casinos then would be able to operate across multiple nations.
SPEAKER_00We'll see that consolidation. Now let's talk about that, about games and what brands offering their customers, because let's face it, I mean, slots haven't changed for a long time. They're still, you know, that and and you touched on that, the mechanics of things need to change and take a step forward because our customers are becoming more demanding in terms of the entertainment that they want to enjoy online. So, what are your thoughts in terms of innovation in the casino and slot space? Is there new things coming in that affiliate managers and brand owners need to be aware of because they are the people that we're speaking to here? And have you seen anything innovatively recently? Because you do have that broad strokes kind of view of the marketplace.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, in the past five years, we've seen quite a bit. So we saw like megawaves, different types of slot, like line. I don't know the best way to describe it. I'm not big-time gaming, but they invented something, it's been copied, it's been distributed, it's been sold. It's it's a great system. And then they the bonus buys were created grid slots. Even now, everyone's doing like a collector payer different type of bonus, like money train three or anything from push. So these guys are innovating in a way, but I think the truth is gonna kind of hit in the end that there's only so many different ways you can build the slot machine.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's still gonna have reels, it's still gonna pay out, it's still gonna have a bonus round of some sort. And people, most people still play the classic, the classic games. A lot of people still play Doghouse by Pragmatic or Book of Dead from playing Go or React. That what you see is a lot of people in the industry want kind of different mechanics and different maths and different kind of changes, but the actual players aren't always that bothered because a lot of them still play the same things.
SPEAKER_00Because of habit.
SPEAKER_02So many people play bingo as well.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02That hasn't changed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and everybody thought the bingo. I mean, I actually went to a uh an event once where they said bingo was dead, and and I thought, well, that's strange because my granny still plays it, so it can probably not be. Dead because young people go out on bingo nights, especially here in the UK. You can still go down to a bingo hall and have a girls' night up. You know, barla bingo, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Other companies are available, just in case you're not sponsored.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. We don't we don't push any one brand on this podcast. But the the other thing is, is you know, things are getting more sophisticated, and and I think brands and affiliates need to understand that they need to speak to what customers want and deliver high higher quality content as well, because there is a lot of competition in the gaming space, in the gaming industry, and really understanding where you position your affiliate program and where you position your brand to take advantage of that competitive nature is a really, really key thing. It's not enough to just be transactional anymore. I think you know a lot of a lot of the conversations that I'm having with new affiliate managers that are coming into the space is that they don't really know how to position their brand and they don't really know how to actually upsell the USPs of the marketing that sits behind their brand. And without that, you can't actually get competitive and you can't grow your program. You can't actually get the attention of these affiliates and tell them why they should be promoting you over somebody else. And it is a very competitive marketplace that we're working in right now, and you do have to get a little bit more clever about what you're gonna be promoting and how you're gonna be promoting it. I mean, you how many white label clients have you got on your platform? And how do they all differentiate themselves?
SPEAKER_0245. And uh they they differ they differentiate themselves by being like different different levels of annoyance, is how I'm gonna say I'm joking. They're lovely people. No, I think some focus on gamification, some focus on uh different types of bonuses and giving people different things every day, some focus on like a CRO journey. My favorite ones offer kind of less, less is more type. So they'll have one key feature, and that will be heavily pushed. So, like a specific tournament or something. Yeah, keep it simple but fresh, but at the same time updated. Like you see big casinos like Casumo for a long time, for example, they did not update their casino lobby for about a year. Whoever was in charge of their front end just put all the new games at the top, and then after a week, they just drop to the bottom. It it was the laziest casino management of that type for a long time. I'm really sorry if you worked at Casumo. But no, I mean whoever's listening. Yeah, they hate me already.
SPEAKER_00There might be some people are listening in.
SPEAKER_02Sorry. But it's it's like keeping things updated, so giving your players the new games, telling them what's coming out soon. Like a lot of people kind of interested in like the newest Thunder Kick or no Lima City game because they're quite volatile. So figuring out that your players like volatility and then sending them something key towards that game is something that works really well.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's kind of why I love working in affiliate marketing, because that is exactly what affiliates do. The good affiliates are providing that information to customers and are adding value in that, in that bioawareness journey, um, which is something else that affiliate managers don't really kind of understand and look at as closely as what we see in the e-commerce space. And I would recommend if you're listening to this podcast and you're working in gaming, go and have a look at how e-commerce businesses promote their products and promote their affiliate programs because there's a lot of lessons to be learned. One of the things that I did want to ask you, which I know is going to be a bit contentious, but I'm gonna throw it out there anyway because you are who you are. What is your crystal ball moment in terms of where you see the future of eye gaming and affiliate marketing headed as we do face more regulation, which is great for the industry, but also as we look at challenging economic times ahead? I mean, we saw this spike during, you know, the period that is previously known as COVID, and I am gonna say it, but you know, like where do you think opportunities are gonna arise? Where do you think things are gonna head as we kind of face potentially looking at a recession?
SPEAKER_02It would not surprise me if the owners of 365 created COVID to jump up the traffic for the last two years.
SPEAKER_00I don't say that.
SPEAKER_02No, Denise does so much for charity, she'll let me say that one. Um it's it's like like even we grew 35% last March randomly. And I was looking at the numbers trying to work out why, and then thought, oh hang on, yeah, people aren't going out. It took me about five minutes to work it out, and that which made me feel really dumb. But where is it headed? I I think I mean, I have the same view I've had the whole time, which is that regulation is going to get stricter, no one's gonna talk to each other. So the MGA, Finland, when it launches, Sweden, Germany, everyone does whatever they want, which is fine. It's their country, they can, it's their choice. But you're isolating every business that wants to offer a responsible product in your company, in your country. So, like we're we're very responsible for an MGA site, probably one of the most. But for us to go into all of these different markets over the next two or three years, like even Kindred wants to be 100% regulated, apparently, by 2024 or 2025 or something, that's that's all fine and good. But what you're doing by regulating so much and isolating each country individually is making it easier for unlicensed sites to take over and clean up, basically, which is creating a bigger problem. I still think the only way to properly get out of this is to have a European-wide regulation or even global, but that's obviously going to be impossible. But the EU could at some point say, hey, we have gambling regulations, follow these, the only thing you can change is how much tax you want from it. That would be that would be perfect because everyone then has one thing to step up to. Everybody makes money, and there's yeah, it's level play from there's open competition. So right now, people like Inner Night, I'm not being mean about them, but Bets and Leo Vegas, these kind of big Tier 1 operators, they can afford to be ahead of the game. So they will kind of lobby with Finnish government and try and have an input into what type of regulations are going to come in, and then they can be ready to go from day one. Everyone else who's kind of playing catch-up by not being involved at this level obviously falls behind, which is what doesn't create a level playing field, but it it's their prerogative as a tier one to stay a tier one casino, I guess. And I'm all for capitalism in that way. But when it comes to innovation, it doesn't really help because a lot of people that would innovate have a lot less income and a lot less money to do so. And like the white label model, as people keep saying online, is apparently dying out, which is a little bit, but platforms are more affordable, you can get your own licenses. But now, is it really gonna go that way where you can only target one or two countries? It's it's gonna get very tricky. So affiliates are also gonna have to change how they adapt as well to be able to adapt to all these different markets and have so many deals in place. It's it's gonna get difficult. I think company sizes are gonna go up as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay. So, what is the one key message that you'd like to give to your peers in the iGaming industry who might be starting out, either as an affiliate, an affiliate manager, a brand, that they can take away from your years of experience working in this space? And I'm really looking for you to tell it like it is, and I wouldn't expect you to do it any differently. Give us the kind of one piece of advice that you want people to take away from listening to this podcast about the things that we need to be doing in the industry, the regulation, the fact that it's gonna get harder. Like, what do you think?
SPEAKER_02I mean, the the one thing I did since I started was trying, I mean, it's gonna sound cheesy, but I tried to learn what everybody does. So I spent a long time like learning what compliance does. And what I've learned about kind of regulated markets and how compliance works, it's incredible. But also it like how this affects payments, how this affects visa cards, how it affects everything. Knowledge in this case is super important to make an informed decision because you you you need so many good people. And I'm quite lucky the team that I've hired is is really good across lots of different levels. But it's for me to make a decision as to where we kind of put our foot forward and which markets we go into and which we don't, it's getting more and more expensive. So the more people that know as much as possible is super helpful. And if you're looking to kind of progress quickly, then being the person, man, woman, non-binary that knows as much as possible is is really going to help you kind of move your career forward. Because I think for me, taking that step was very, very helpful. I learned from a lot of good people, I learned from a lot of bad people as well, which is how I know that to make certain questionable decisions at times. And yeah, I'm trying to think how that would translate to your side to the affiliate space. But I think contacts are are key as well in that side of things. So I think having going to not just going to the events, but you see a lot of people going to the events, stood outside smoking and going home. It's like no one joins in, like no one really sits and listens to talks they don't think that are important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think that's that's one of the things that we're trying to help with, especially on the affiliate management side. So we're actually hosting our Amplify Summit this year in January. It's the first virtual summit of the year. You can tune in from anywhere, it's 100% free. And it really is about bringing experts in the affiliate and partner marketing space together to learn what's happening so that you can actually implement things that can help improve the way that you're running your affiliate program because that's really the kind of audience that we speak to. And I do see a lot of people outside at events and they're not really attending the talks, but I'm not sure if that's because they just don't know that the talks are there or they just don't want to participate in those talks. But it is important to learn from lots of different people if you do want to progress your career, because you do need to understand how everything is connected. So I 100% agree with you on that.
SPEAKER_02And like all of these, like the big names in the industry, like TORTR and Evolution, these kinds of people, they're the ones giving their forecasts for the next five or ten years, and they're probably gonna be wrong in a way. I think the only I think the one that's most right was Tim at iGaming Next talking about Coruscal people leaving it and going to other markets, which for sure is gonna happen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But these are the guys that kind of get their name out there, these are the guys that are driving iGaming for the next five to ten years. So to listen to them and to realize what they're saying that's correct, what they're saying that's incorrect, and what is just kind of amplified ball in a way, without saying the last rest of that is is really important to learn and to kind of get a grasp as to what the big companies are doing and where you think they're going wrong. Because they will make mistakes, everybody. Like we make mistakes, everybody makes mistakes. It's it's learning from that and adapting that is the most important thing.
SPEAKER_00I always say in in the gaming industry, we've always been building the plane and flying it at the same time because it's always one of the most for running uh digital industries in like out of all of them. So, you know, we're always pushing the needle and learning from that, and then everybody else plays catch up afterwards. So I think it's very important. This this point that you've raised is very important. If you if you want to build a career in digital, you have to want to learn. You have to want to keep on learning what is changing, and you have to make sure that you go out there and find the the sources of information, the sources of truth that can help lead you and guide you into what the future may be. Because a lot of these people like Tim Heath that you mentioned, you know, he's been in the industry since before me. Like I've been in the industry two decades. So we know where we've come from, and therefore we can sometimes foresee how things are going to happen because it's cyclical. There are iterations of gaming that have happened. I mean, I was in the industry before the US shut down way back in the early 2000s. And how we did things then to how we're doing things now that the US has reopened again, completely different. And, you know, I I too haven't really kind of gone over into the US as a market of choice because I really did not understand how it was going to really work, how it was previously. Like some of us remember those days and we remember how much money and you know how big and how fast the industry was growing. But with the regulation in place now, and it's a whole next generation of people that we're we're talking to. So I think you have to want to learn if you want to be in this industry and you want to actually continue your career, and you also need to be self-feeding that knowledge because nobody's gonna give it to you on a golden plat. I mean, we've got people like you coming on this podcast to give insights and to talk about things that are happening. But outside of this, I don't think there's anywhere where you can go and learn this stuff. You have to just go and find it, seek it and find it, and then kind of process it and talk to other people in the industry to see what they think too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I have, I'm gonna say of my Skype conversations of there, I have 50. I would say at least 10 of them are discussing random topics, like, oh, this game broke. Has anybody worked out why? And then you're kind of like deciphering why it went wrong, what kind of thing they did wrong, and then why that will affect slot bills in the future. It's like that kind of stuff. I mean, we have a a content person, SEO specialist. The man is a an absolute legend called Mark with a C, please don't steal it. Um he is constantly talking to me about why different games work, why they don't work. And I'm learning so much from him, and we're learning from each other. And it's like getting a different viewpoint on like all these crash games that are coming in from nowhere. Everyone's building it because the technology is available. Yes, and it's not that expensive, and they're apparently quite big. But if you look at it, the actual profit on them is quite small. It's all on the blockchain, they're everywhere. It's like everybody wants to have something that someone else has rather than inventing the next version of that, which sadly only really happens with a couple of companies that are still around. So a bit more innovation should be coming soon, hopefully. Because you're you're cashing out when you choose to, but it's technically, I mean, because they die so early so often, it's it I think the average RTP that actually pays out is somewhere around 80% or something. So it's a it's a great scheme to make money if you own a casino. Put that put that in position number one.
SPEAKER_00Marketing, marketing tactic. There you go. You heard it from the horse's mouth. Fala, it's been a pleasure to have you on here to actually just understand a little bit more about what's happening in the gaming industry because we don't talk about it very often. But this seems like there's a lot of MA, a lot of innovation, a lot of regulation, which is awesome to see. It's been a pleasure to have you. And it was even a pleasure to meet you in Malta in the Flash because I've been kind of LinkedIn lurking, stalking you for years, but never actually reached out to get you on the podcast. So there you go. If you if you feel scared about contacting Phil, you now know him more intimately as a close friend on this podcast. And I'm sure he wouldn't mind answering any questions if you're keen on learning and and really connecting with somebody who's got a lot of experience in this industry. It's been a pleasure to have you on, Phil.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Thank you so much.
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