You're listening to the Affiliate Marketing Podcast, a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers who want to launch, scale, and grow successful affiliate and performance marketing programs. In this podcast, you'll learn how affiliate and partner marketing is constantly changing. Get behind-the-scenes access to a variety of digital and affiliate marketing experts. Access hours of value bombs and tried and tested tactics. Learn what's new and trending in affiliate marketing. And much more. Now here's your host, award-winning affiliate program marketer, orb.com thought leader, the drum digital's top 50 UK agency owner, affiliate manager, industry motivator, and your affiliate marketing guide, Leanne Johnston.
SPEAKER_02So hey everybody, this is Lisa Riolo, and I am here with Leanne Johnson. She's been gracious enough to allow me to help her with her affiliate insider podcast. And I'm going to be doing more of the interview questions and allowing her an opportunity in our conversation to really express some of her own views, which I think is such a great thing when you know you've earned so much respect and built up this audience in the podcast, and they're all excited about your guests. But I listen to you and I think that I'm always very interested to hear what you have to say. So uh so everyone, welcome and and Leanne, welcome back to your own uh home, so to speak.
SPEAKER_01Thanks very much for doing this. I mean, I'm thrilled to have you here with me on this podcast today because it is, you know, whilst I love interviewing other people and getting their thoughts, it is quite nice to be on the other side of the mic. And I don't do that very often.
SPEAKER_02Um, but let's see how it goes. Yeah, no, definitely. And um, so and and so I wanted to, this is your first, I think, uh, episode for uh for the the new year, and we're going into uh a was actually a very busy time typically in the whole partnership economy when you think about uh everyone setting up for the for the coming year, and they've been doing some of their planning in the previous year. But so so this is the first one, and I know you have some very big events coming up. So, real quick, why don't you give us a quick summary of what's in your world for the next few weeks?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we're starting this year strong. I mean, you know, there's there's no signs of slowing in the performance marketing industry, that's for sure, because we've got our own Amplify Summit, which is happening in a couple of weeks, which has more than 2,000 people registered, coming to learn from industry experts that we've curated and gathered from around the world, including you. So thank you very much for being on that agenda. And really, we're talking about the future state of the nation and we're getting everybody's perspective from all four corners of the globe, all parts of the industry, to really kick off the year and understand, you know, where should we be focusing our time, our effort, and and what does the future of affiliate marketing look like? Because I kind of feel like we're in a bit of a renaissance moment. The partnership economy has expanded, you know, beyond web, beyond mobile. It's now into social media, ambassadors, you know, we've got brand-to-brand partnerships that are creeping into the performance space as well. And it's all becoming one big mishmash of kind of strategy and programs and models and all of these things. And to me, you know, affiliate managers, there's no school of affiliate marketing. They have to go to events and learn from industry veterans who are doing this job nine to five every day of the week, 365 days of the year, in order to keep up with what's happening. So, I mean, that's kind of my start for the year. But then after that, I go straight over to Vegas to go to Affiliate Summit West to hear what's happening on the other side of the pond. Because affiliate marketing is different in lots of different places around the world. There's, you know, uh strategies and best practices and different marketing rules and regulations that we need to follow. Um, so if you're in a global performance marketing program or space or at a brand that you know works cross cross borders, it's important for you to understand what's happening everywhere, basically. And straight after that, we've got another event in London, which is the IGB affiliate conference, and then kind of the year rolls forward. So it's it ain't gonna be slow.
SPEAKER_02No, it's gonna be it's big, it's gonna be busy. You know, and I was thinking about this, which a lot of companies make these decisions, you know, very very much early, like they're building their budgets, etc. But from your point of view, and I I can hear it in the enthusiasm that you have about the idea of attending events, and there's virtual events, which are much more affordable. I think that's one way to get involved. But also, do you have any thoughts or tips about ways that affiliate managers in particular can express to their leadership the importance of these events? Not just, okay, yes, it's global and you're hearing this other information, but why attend an event in particular? What is it about it that you feel like is that greatest value?
SPEAKER_01So the biggest thing for me is, and obviously I'm a big believer in content as king. So when we create events, we're bringing people that I've hand selected, that I know are experts, that have their finger on the pulse of everything that's happening in the space. And especially for people coming into the industry that maybe haven't built a network yet, they don't know other people outside of their own company. Virtual events are a great way to get connected, to actually ask questions live from the audience because we always open up um our panel discussions for audience participation. I love audience participation. I will always get up and talk at an event and answer live questions on the moment because it's the one place where you can get information that is valid, relevant, and trustworthy. So I think for me, it's about building your network, and that's outside of your own company. So your peer group within the industry is just as important to you, even if they are competitors, as getting access to some of those senior people that you wouldn't perhaps even meet on a showroom floor because they just don't have the time to always go to every single event, physical event that's happening. But people are very open and make time in their candidate to hop on a Zoom call and actually have a live virtual experience or a fireside chat. Those are the two big things why events are going to be very important because it keeps your finger on the pulse, connects you to other people in your community that have different perspectives to you, and possibly gets you connected to really senior people that you wouldn't otherwise get to see or even, you know, engage with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I I think too, Leanne, like the other part of that, which isn't so much like convincing leadership, but just for yourself, is also people are, in fact, especially in this industry, I have found over the last couple of decades, they're really generous and understand because they were in your situation as well. There is not a person, I don't care how old the veteran or how recent that they've been involved where they didn't enter into it with pretty limited amount of knowledge. And so this idea of like to your point of asking questions and what have you, I think people are very generous. And I also think that like the concept of I'm not going to tell my competitor or whatever the information, I don't think that's entirely true. Um, I think there's a lot that people are willing to do in those in those situations. So it's a little bit more of your fear of overcoming that that idea of, well, well, like why would they want to talk to me? It's actually that I think everyone really wants everyone to succeed. This is one of those few times where the more success there is within anyone's individual challenge channel also helps benefit, I think, in many instances, uh, the industry as a whole. So I think that's the other part is it's just a really generous group and not to be afraid.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I'm I'm a big believer in the phrase a rising tide raises all ships. And ultimately as an industry, we've come from, you know, if we talk about affiliate marketing in the early or late 1990s, which is kind of when I entered the industry, we've come from that kind of spammy, it's all, you know, black hat kind of stuff, to a very respectable industry that's growing at a very fast rate. I think the PMA did a marketing report that I read um on the back end of last year, where they uh released figures saying that there was a 47% increase in the performance marketing channel from 2018 to 2021, which was also during a global pandemic. So it just shows we're all working together to build best practices and to keep the industry growing for the benefit of everybody that's in it, you know, those working client side, brand side, network side, agency side. And that's really what my event is about. It's about keeping everybody learning and growing together.
SPEAKER_02You know, and that's so interesting because you're right. I I think there are these challenges where, for example, performance-based relationships, right, that have that, like both uh groups have sort of sort of skin in the game, uh, so to speak. And there's a response that comes um in the in the tough economic times, right? And so, and what it requires is a shift in marketing tactics. And that is oftentimes on the back of, if you will, the partner, the publisher, the affiliate side, because they're the ones engaging with the audience and tapping into, hey, this is what you know is going right now. So when you think about some of the patterns that we've seen, uh, and we're going into a period of time that I think at best is of economic uh the the like um the word I wanted to use was almost like a mystery, right? Is we don't really know exactly what's going to happen. There's but it seems to be a decrease in demand. We know that we've had inflation. I would say inflation is a tough one that we haven't necessarily seen completely in our, you know, you think back over the last 25 or 30 years, even it's we haven't really gone through that kind of level of inflation. So, from your point of view, what is the best advice do you think that you can give, I think, marketers about what it is that they need to do in at this time, especially with respect to their partnerships?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, the first thing that I'd like to say is one of the common things that we see from the agency side is um brands running affiliate programs on InnerFish or running programs on technology stacks that they're not actually using. And I read such an interesting report from Gartner, and I'm just gonna quote it quickly. It's a study that Gartner did, and they found that companies only use an average of 42% of their tech stack capabilities, a figure that's actually down from a slightly less dismal 58%, which was recorded in 2020. So we're not using our technology to its full potential to actually embrace the partnership. Well, and it could be across anything, it could be CRM, it could be you know Fuller Monitoring, but I don't I don't know how they pulled that figure together. But I think a technology stack review is always a good thing, and and making sure that your team actually understands the tools that you're giving them to use is an even better thing. So start at the bottom, start at, you know, look at your Rails, look at your technology stack, look, are you actually utilizing all of the features and functions to scale your program? The second thing that I want people to do this year is to really segment their program properly because the days of running an affiliate program on a one-size-fits-all model is over simply because we've got ambassadors, influencers, affiliates, media buyers, we've got all of these different types of partnerships that are coming into the performance channel, and they all need different things. So, again, to point one, your tech stack needs to be making sure that it can deliver to all of these different types of partnerships, and your commercials need to be changing along as well. Because we I think 2022, we spoke a lot about, you know, why do influencers want fixed fees? How do you run your affiliate program? What sort of budgets do you need to have? And the the truth of the matter is that it depends on the partner, it depends on what they're doing for you and how they're launching your product or service and and what value they bring to your business and into your performance program. So I want to see more effective communication, I want to see less cold calling, I want to see more improved marketing ROI and affiliate programs, and that means getting down to the nitty-gritty of the strategy of why you're running your program in the first place, and then looking at are you utilizing all the tools and tactics that you should be doing in order to maximize your ROI? Because whilst you should continue to spend during, you know, a recessionary period, and we've seen that in previous cycles for those of us that have been in the industry long enough, you also shouldn't be spending inefficiently during this time. Like this is not a time to churn and burn. This is a time to get really creative and really strategic about where you're spending your money, what partners you're collaborating with, and why. Ask yourself the why. Um, and I think if you do that, I think you're gonna sail through this year because you'll be making responsible choices. You'll be working with the partners that add value to your business, you'll be cutting out the unnecessary spend. Another really interesting thing that I saw, which I think is gonna be a big trend, and and I'm kind of moving off the original topic, but this really flawed me. 93% of TikTok users globally take an action after watching a TikTok video. So in under three seconds, we're making a decision to purchase something.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Like, let's take one second here and go one, two, three, a decision. That's fascinating. I hadn't heard that.
SPEAKER_01So my take on that is you better know your brand and you better understand how to build brand affinity with your customers to keep them purchasing. Because if our attention spans have gone down from you know, five minutes as it was 10 years ago, and we would watch a YouTube video right till the end to three seconds with a purchase now button, and we're shopping live based on what people, what influencers are telling us to do, that's a complete dynamic and shift change in the consumer behavior over the last 10 years. And I think it's you know, like how do we embrace that? How do we build that into part of our partnership strategies? How are our affiliates looking at that? Because clearly they're the ones that have already cottoned onto this idea because they're all on TikTok making sales. And they always tend to be the first to pick up new trends as well. So, my I mean, that really flawed me when I read that stat. I was like, you know, that changes the whole dynamic of online.
SPEAKER_02Leon, let me interrupt you for one second too, because I want to make a little tiny point for the brand side or the affiliate manager side of what you just said. Um, I think that you are correct, and we have seen this over and over again is that the marketers, which are your publishers and partners, get out there and they figure out these trends and what have you. And you had mentioned right beforehand about let's get the the the um, let's make sure that we're partnering with our existing relationships and to understand. So there it is right there, which is what can a brand do to enable more, the more effective and successful activities that the influencers, the affiliates, the you know, your partners are doing. And I think that's really important in their communication, is it's to say, okay, you're out there, you're blazing the trail, so to speak. What is it that I can do to help enable that for you? And I don't hear that very often. I oftentimes hear brands have made a decision of what they want, and then they're trying to go out and recruit it. So I think you just made an incredibly important point. And I think to be honest with you, and I think in social media in particular, I think what you're seeing in those like very quick the decision or the the call to action, so to speak, it's been a buildup. You don't you don't follow as an as a consumer, I don't follow an influencer for the very first time, and I don't make that decision about credibility or whatever it is that I'm hearing the first time in three seconds. What I what happens is I've been exposed to an idea, a product, an individual that somehow has the credibility, and I quickly am able to say, okay, I really I'm in, so to speak. The the consumer on their journey, their journey hasn't changed. Um but what's happening is is the the engagement point is happening a little bit earlier. And I think it's the brands partnering with the influencers, it's the brands partnering with the affiliates, helping to understand is what is it that is engaging your audiences in a way and how can I support that activity, as opposed to you know the old-fashioned thinking of an advertiser thinking I'm gonna buy my way into that moment in time. You can't you can't do that in today's world because it's not really advertising anymore, it's a different type of engagement.
SPEAKER_01That's a very valid point, and this is why I loved speaking to you, because every time we talk, we end up talking about setting the world to rights. But you're right. And that advertiser mentality where we went out and said we want all of our affiliate partners to promote this promotion, that doesn't work. What works on a website in a banner format does not work for a TikTok influencer. They are going to take that promotion and slice and dice it and make it into something else that fits their audience. And so therein lies a problem with compliance and with advertising guidelines. And these are the things that we need to manage in our technology stacks and in our programs and with our teams, educating our teams in terms of what's right and what's wrong and how to remain on brand. So the entire process of managing an affiliate program is just becoming way more complex because everything around us is becoming complex.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it's also that lead with the marketing, not with the tech. And what I mean by that is that because your tech can do something a certain way. So you might be on a network and there's this concept of program terms, and you have limitations as to I've got to have, you know, the one size fits all type thing. That's really a best practice that was developed because of the limitations of technology. So as you're doing your audit, you don't want to come through and say, well, we can't do that because uh, you know, blah, blah, blah, or we do everything this way because of the tech that we have. It's more along the lines of I've got this tech in place. These are the this is the way I want to operate now. So as a marketer, you could or as a brand, you know, you can say, I, instead of saying this is what I want everyone to do for me, you can say to your partners, what do you need? And then go back and say, how do we enable that with the tech that we have? And not, we don't now we have to go buy new tech. I mean, you're going to make those decisions to buy new tech, but it sounds like from the reporting that you have or the uh research that you have, that you've got this people companies invested way in advance with their tech stacks. Um, and now there's limitations to what their tech stacks have been doing. And so your point is is like, how do we flip that so that we really take full advantage of the tech, but doing it in a way where the marketing and the relationships are leading the path as opposed to the other way around?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So flip it on its head this year. One of the other things that I actually saw, which I thought about as I was sitting pondering the future of 2023, is obviously cookie deprecation is the biggest year, and we are going to be covering this at our event in a little bit more detail. But I think, and you know, slay me down if I'm wrong for making a prediction, a hairy prediction. I think email is going to become very important to us again. And and I think, you know, uh things like lead generation is going to become, you know, normally we we've sort of left that at the side and gone, yeah, it's there, and we use it when we need it. But I think first-party data is going to become very important to everybody in our chain, not just the agencies, the brands, but the affiliates too. And so I'm interested to see what kind of innovation happens on the email front because we want to be able to give customers, you know, segmented offers that are relevant for them instead of mass email marketing. And I know that there's a lot of tools out in the marketplace that customize emails, personalize emails. So I'm really keen to see what's going to happen there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, so one, Leanne, and I really I look forward to it. And I invite you in one of your upcoming podcasts to actually kind of go through that. You talked about there's technology out there that can support the email. So I would love to hear more about that um in a in a future. But I agree with your prediction, and I actually think it opens up another door, and I'd love to hear more about your thoughts here. But um, you know, email becomes an asset or first party data becomes an asset. And so we've traditionally thought about it as somebody's a publisher or some a company is a brand. But I think that email and first party data opens up opportunities for you know, collabs and partnerships between brands because both companies typically have assets. And so, you know, brands have oftentimes not worked together. Um, there's a lot of instances in which they like the idea of it, but for whatever reasons, you know, the team that is doing the uh you know affiliate program, for example, is like, well, I don't really have access to any of those things. And we have a policy that we don't do advertising on our site and blah, blah, blah. I think here's another great opportunity that your prediction leads to another trend where there's tremendous demand for brands to work together, but there's a you know, sort of a gap in the how do we do this unless it's done at the very high level. So I think agencies and brands alike have this amazing opportunity as they dig into the concept of email and first-party data to really find ways to partner together as well. And it doesn't cut affiliates out of the equation by any stretch of the imagination, because you can often think of it as, you know, an affiliate might be sending traffic to a brand who's then in turn also partnering, and both groups uh, you know, can figure out a way in which they partner together and compensate each other because now, you know, that brand that might be making an outbound referral is also looking to accept an inbound referral, but their commercials might shift. And instead of I'm only selling merchandise with an affiliate, you may be able to say, Hey, I've also got, I'm willing to pay for some traffic here. Because by you sending us visitors, we have an opportunity to. engage with those consumers in a different way. That's not a bad thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean we we kind of looked at that more in the gaming industry. We looked at those types of brand and brand partnerships more as sponsorships. But I think brands are opening up to the idea of doing that now. And we actually do this in our agency. So we actually partner brands up together and we say hey you've got this and you've got that you two should actually work together. And we we actually make the introductions for our our clients to each other and say here go and have a conversation. So we're very transparent about that because we want everybody to win. And we you know there's nothing in it there's no commercial reason for us to do that. It's just good business practice. And it's and it's about making people you know that whole rising tide raises all ships mentality that we work in. And I think you know that that kind of brings me to my next point is I think people in this industry you know we are going to face some tough times. There are already people that have been laid off there's you know people looking for jobs all the rest of it but we need to be authentic with each other. I think brands need to stop thinking oh this is my competitor and I can't actually collaborate because the entire industry is built on collaboration in one way or another. And the more we collaborate the more we all learn the more we all benefit. So maybe shaking off some of that old competitor mindset. And I know I I speak a little bit about um blue ocean red ocean marketing I don't know if you've ever read that book but it's brilliant turn your blue ocean head on this year because you're going to need it and and start to look at how you can collaborate instead of compete. Change your lingo change your mindset and start to think about how you can work authentically with others in order to reach your you know your and their goals and when you start thinking of your partners as an extension of your own business versus just a supplier that's bringing you traffic you tend to treat them in a different way as well. So if you're an affiliate manager listening to this take that on board and and ruminate on it for a little bit over your cup of coffee in the morning and think about how am I going to treat my partners like they were my colleagues. Would I actually treat them any differently? Would I offer them different things to what I would offer my colleagues sitting next to me. And think about how you bring that into your affiliate program because I I promise you the way that you treat people makes a huge difference in terms of how much support they give you back. It's not just about the money it's about having a collaborative nature and partners follow that and and I've actually had podcasts with big affiliates that have said exactly the same thing. So go back and listen to some of the podcasts with people like um Mark Webster from Authority Hacker he he he gave some really good stuff. Dominic Wells who's also coming to Amplify like they gave nuts and bolts like clear stories about what they value as a partner in affiliate programs and and really it's that simple. We overcomplicate stuff sometimes so true.
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah the the and you know simplicity is not easy right but it actually like you get rid of all that extra you know so so so to speak noise and what have you and you know what is really true. And I think you're exactly right and people have talked about this for years about this is relationship driven but like really getting down to the idea of yes and those relationships are an exchange of information and knowledge and goodwill so to speak and uh you know you get overly uh I think too too driven in a in the wrong way in the wrong mindset it can be so limiting. And right now we we've got plenty of other things out there that are going to be limiting. So I've noticed a trend because I brought up about agencies and I've been thinking a lot about the fact that as I interact with different agencies uh and there's a lot of shifts that go on with different agencies but there's also a lot of shifts that go on with clients and as they do things like their tech audit, they're reviewing all of like what do we have available in terms of resources maybe we've invested and underutilized it there becomes this drive and I I saw this in search many years ago where initially companies outsource then they go through this period of time where they think and a lot of it's financially driven but then they want to insource and then they turn back around a lot of times and then they want to go back to outsourcing or they want to outsource portions of their overall channel and program and you know what have you. So I think you've sat at the center of this you've witnessed so much of it I can't think of another I I can think of a few agencies you know that have also experienced this but I haven't really heard anyone share information and educate folks. What is your thought about this whole trend and like if we think about it from the standpoint of is when is it the right time and how is the right way I guess to do that sort of insourcing um or at least have the conversations about is there a value in doing this versus you know go ahead and outsource?
SPEAKER_01You know subject that is super passionate to me because our sales cycle I mean I'm I'm actually just going to be very authentic and honest here now. We get clients coming to us saying pitch us for your business and and and as an agency we're actually a little bit cheeky and we and we don't pitch. We're like if you want to work with the best 20 years of experience back us up this is it we have delivered results but we give the pitch we tell them what our ideas are you know they take the ideas they try some of them buy it immediately and they go yes we love it there's a chemistry we know you guys can support us it's great. Some of them will take the ideas and try and run it in-house and I I kid you not six months less than six months later they will boomerang right back to us and say we couldn't deliver the ideas that you gave us can you help fix the problems that we've now created and you know what it's like with anything you wouldn't go to a doctor if you had pain in your teeth you'd go to a dentist okay so whilst the dentist could tell the doctor give you some medication because it'll alleviate the pain the doctor can't fix that problem. So the ideas and the strategy that I put forward to somebody and say this is what I believe you should do is based on the 25 years of experience that I've been doing this job day in, day out. And it cannot be replicated by somebody who does not have 25 years of experience because it's my idea and I'm the sum of all of my experiences. And I cannot train somebody else to do what I do in two years. So you can hire an affiliate account manager with three years experience to take some of some of your program in-house but then you'll lack the strategy and and the benefit that an agency brings is market related understanding. You are looking at your program only and what works for your program only but you do not know what works for other programs that are similar to you. Whereas me as an agency provider I do I see what happens in the marketplace and that is why I can come up with better ideas than your internal people because I'm managing multiple programs. I'm looking at what's working all the time I understand supply and demand and I know it sounds maybe I've been a little bit too honest. So I don't know if we'll maybe cut this up but I am very authentic and I'm very honest about about what I do and why I do it because I I have spent 20 years perfecting my skill and we are as an agency we don't hire junior people that don't have experience because that's the model that I believe in. We our minimum experience is three to five years and somebody with three years would not be touching an account on their own. So the way that we've structured our agency is is the way that I would run your program as if I was working at your company as the CMO or the head of affiliates. And that works for us you know we're not a huge agency. Every agency has different experiences has different they offer different experiences like we don't have we don't touch Asia we don't have the language experience I don't believe that that's a market that we could help a client in but Europe and the states absolutely we can help you. So I think you need to think about what works for your business. You know some programs can run in-house very efficiently if they've got good tech. And I would tell a client straight up you could actually run this program, hire this person, put this budget behind it, come to us for a strategy session once a quarter and you'll be A4 away.
SPEAKER_02Well right there, yeah. So you're there's the tactics there's the strategy like my advice you know very much on the outside of it uh having interacted with you know scores of agencies and certainly you know ultimately hundreds and hundreds of different programs my advice oftentimes is is okay let's let's think about there's strategy and then there's tactics and definitely if you have a less experienced person for example in-house there is no reason not to help train them up uh with respect to tactics but and I and I want to say this to you Lean is like you're like oh maybe we won't you know include this this piece or whatever it is as it relates to because I've been so honest and authentic. I actually think what you just shared as an insight is you partner with your clients that's what you do. And I think that a lot of times when companies are looking to do I insource this or outsource they're viewing their agencies oftentimes as a vendor. As a supplier yeah as a supply you know the the the the supplier the vendor whatever and a lot of that comes from you may have a finance department who and you know sort of your CFO if you will and they're looking at the brass tacks and the tactics of what they have to do from a financial perspective and they're not necessarily understanding the nature of that relationship. So you know it's it's you talk about doing a it was really interesting to me is as you're talking about hey I got to do this tech audit hey I've got to you know sort of segment and think about the relationships and sort of audit if you will the way that I'm working with my partners I think the same thing has to be true as it relates to your agency or that relationship that comes in. And I think what you've described is to say hey we have a level of expertise and all of our tactics are built off from a very deep understanding of the right strategy. And that strategy is unique if you will uh for the individual client so they have to find a way to partner with you as it relates to the strategic part. Then if they go well listen I'm gonna steal your idea so you did the you did the pitch so to speak and and I've seen it over and over again. I mean I've actually heard CFOs flat out say out loud well just have a pitch for the business and then just incorporate that into our year like literally unabashed. And you're thinking to yourself like this is just not the right way to do business right but and I and I do believe this is is that your tactics are much more advanced and sophisticated because your strategies are so in fact you know custom. So and not all programs need that and not all agencies necessarily deliver all of that. So you have to and I think this is really important it's just like an interview for a job an agency and a client or a prospect are looking at each other as is this a good fit? Is this a good partnership? And not all relationships are going to be a good fit and an agency has to be willing to say hey I'm not I'm not so desperate that I'm gonna take the wrong kind of business and also I think that a brand and everybody has to recognize where they're really at sometimes they can't afford or they're not in a place where they're gonna be able to take that really sophisticated approach. So you know it's a it's a tough it's really tough because people are are hungry for the business um you know people are hungry for jobs right now and they're kind of willing to take what they can get and and a lot of instances that's true but I think hold out and make sure that it's a right fit for you. So I think your authenticity was not a bad thing. I think it's a revealing to everyone that hey like again at the heart of all of these things is this partnership, this relationship and there's a give and a take.
SPEAKER_01I will be very honest and you know I have said this to a lot of people that refer business to us. We also look at chemistry. So add all of that plus then add on the chemistry that we have with the client during the pitch because I'm fortunate enough to have an agency that I own outright and that I can decide do I take this client on and and can I help this client because my first question is not do I want the business? Obviously I want the business but my first question is can I actually take this client from where they are right now to where they want to be and will they allow me to do it because there's one thing to hire an agency but quite another to give them free reign to actually deliver the strategy that they know will work for you. You have to be able to let go and trust that this agency is going to step in and do what they need to do.
SPEAKER_02And without that it doesn't work let's you know uh remind everybody about your upcoming conference the virtual conference and and give them the brass tacks on that because again here's this opportunity we have a rich deep great valuable conversation this is just an example of you and and your thoughts and you're the one that's curated all this content that's coming up in the next so there's that's just built into this event and I really want to make sure that we encourage everyone um to get to get in there and participate in those sessions and you know it's a pretty cost effective thing to do because you're not having to spend the money on the travel etc and so you just it's really an investment of your time.
SPEAKER_01100% and time is money and we realize that so ask a lot of questions get your value out of spending your time at at our events because that's what they're designed for. You know and and Amplify is taking place in a couple of weeks so you know it's it's it's going to be a bit short notice for everybody to take the time out to come but there will be replays there will be on demand you know we always share highlights from the conferences um on our blog so read our newsletters just engage with our community because that's that's what we're building is a community that elevates everybody and lifts everybody up. I am you know I've spent half my adult life in affiliate marketing and I am passionate about this industry. I do this because I love it. You know it's it's for me it's caked into my DNA.
SPEAKER_02Yeah it shows I get so much you know when I think about uh engaging with you and talking to you um and I had reached out to you because I had listened to one of your podcast episodes we didn't know each other um but it was so evident to me even in that conversation that I was like oh here is someone who more than matches my passion uh and the things that I feel very strongly about um which you know you think about it's like after you spend a long time uh in an industry and it's sort of some of us can kind of kind of take that that subject matter expertise for granted so to speak you know what I mean it's sort of like yeah yeah I know that I know that I know that but what you do and I think it's so important is you share that information with that next generation of folks and so even like myself I'm a pretty you know advanced so to speak uh member of the community and yet at the same exact time I learn from you and I learn from the conversations that you're having. So um one I just want to thank you for it and I just it's so exciting. And two, you know your inspiration, your enthusiasm, um it really shows up in the content.
SPEAKER_01I'm glad I'm super glad that I mean I'm I'm I'm actually really like I feel abashed because you've got way more experience than what I do and just the connection that we've had through the podcast through the stuff that I'm posting that's what matters you know like we never would have met and we never would have had this great conversation and the two hour conversation that we had before and you know it started with a post you know and that's how simple it is to connect to people in our industry. So anybody listening don't be shy reach out ask questions connect with people everybody here wants to learn so that I think that's a perfect place to to kind of end our podcast session together and I know it's been a bit of a long one but I'm gonna post it anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah well you can edit in that so okay well thank you for that um you know I just wanted to say to you and I just I really this is genuine um you are amazing and you keep it up okay because there's a lot of amazing people in this industry and there's these people that we come across and I you know I I I have some really deep genuine friendships with folks and whatever else it is but what I see in you is this you know it's not a spark it's a flame that's that's igniting uh things and when you think about like what is what does fire do it renews right as it leaves you know it's there's a devastation to it too right it burns things out but then this growth that comes from it that's renewed it's like pruning and whatever it's strong that's you right there I I want to lead the renaissance I want people to fall in love with affiliate marketing again to make it part of their businesses and to enjoy working in it because I have and I still do every single day this podcast is brought to you by AMP the affiliate management performance program is designed for affiliate managers running programs in affiliate networks or with in-house SaaS supported platforms.
SPEAKER_00We've helped hundreds of affiliate managers across a range of industries get the best out of their affiliate partnerships and build consistent sales with just one hour per week spread over 12 weeks you'll learn proven tactics and tested strategies gained from decades of experience running million dollar affiliate programs. To book your seat on our Apple course visit our website and hit the training menu now that's a wrap for this week's affiliate marketing podcast if you're loving what we're putting down why not head over to Apple iTunes and give us a five star review make sure to subscribe to our podcast and our YouTube channel so you never miss another insightful episode or one of our free webinars ever again. Tune in next week for more digital affiliate marketing insights trends tips and content to keep your affiliate and performance marketing fresh and your partners driving consistent sales