You're listening to the Affiliate Marketing Podcast brought to you by AffIFirst.com. The chapter and verse of everything you need for running successful affiliate programs and partnership management. This is a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers, publishers, networks, agencies and Martech providers who operate in affiliate marketing. If you want to launch, scale, and grow successful affiliate marketing programs, you're in the right place. In this podcast, you'll learn how affiliate and partner marketing is changing. Gain behind the mic access to affiliate marketing veterans. Listen and learn tried and tested program management tactics. Discover what's new and trending in affiliate and performance marketing. The truth is, you simply won't find this information anywhere else. If you're looking to launch an affiliate program but aren't 100% sure where or how to begin, or you've launched your affiliate program but something isn't working and you're struggling to scale, we can help. Book a free 15-minute strategy call with our AFIVERS agency team to find out how we can help you get to where you want to be. We offer a range of affiliate program management services, from strategy and consulting to technical setups and complex affiliate program migrations. Our award-winning agency team handles everything from affiliate strategy to affiliate partner recruitment and deep dive affiliate program audits. We help you make affiliate marketing simple. Don't waste time struggling to get the results you need and deserve. Visit www.affiverse.com and click on the agency button to book a call now. Now, here's your award-winning affiliate and performance marketing host, industry veteran, and your affiliate marketing guide and founder of Affiverse, Leanne Johnston.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to the affiliate marketing podcast with me, your host Leanne Johnston. And today I'm super excited because I've got Rick McGuinness, founder of Bearcat Media, joining me on the podcast today. Rick, it is super nice to have you on this podcast. I have been waiting for this one for a while because as I told you when I met you in Vegas a couple of weeks back, I've been listening to your podcast for quite some time. And now I've got you behind the mic on my podcast. And I'm super excited to welcome you here today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks, Leanne. It's it's a pleasure. It was nice to finally meet you in Vegas a few weeks ago. Uh I've like I said, I I I see you uh online when we were before we got on here, we were talking about it. But it's nice to finally um have a nice conversation and connect, and I'm ready to talk about uh affiliate marketing with you.
SPEAKER_02Perfect. So exactly why we're here today. But before we start, I just want you to tell our audience a little bit about yourself, about how you started in the affiliate industry, because I think that that's always a really interesting conversation to have. And just tell us a little bit about Makeup Media.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I've been in the affiliate space uh since 2012. So we're we're at 11 years now. And uh I I've I've been just about my entire time, I've been on the um like OPM agency side. Uh that that's where I've um that's where I've been my entire career. I worked with a couple agencies prior to starting my own. And yeah, it's been it's been a good ride. Uh the industry's changed a lot since I've I've come into it in the last 10 plus years, but it's positive changes, which is good. And in about 2019, the end of 2019, I started Bear Cap Media right before the pandemic, which uh we we had that conversation too, which was uh probably one of the scariest moments having a having a new business during a pandemic where you didn't know if anything was going to survive. But we we were here three years later, we we made it, and we're and we're thriving. So, and what we do is we do um like full service affiliate uh program management. So manage the whole program day-to-day, or we can do uh a car pieces like recruiting and activation, things like that. So and that's just who I am and and what my business does in a in a quick overview.
SPEAKER_02So, what are some of the the things that you've learned working agency side all of these years? Because I'm pretty sure that times have changed um since when you first entered the industry to now. And part of why I invite people on this podcast is just to talk a little bit about the storytelling behind why we do things the way that we do. So, what uh what do you think some of the big changes have been since you first started working OPM side then till now?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so b back when uh when I started, it was the the content producers and the like the influencer space, it wasn't nearly as big as it was. So uh a lot of the focus was on like the coupons, cashback, loyalty. There was there were there were content sites out there, but there was they were not as prevalent as they are now. And uh the the evolution of the industry now where content producers or content creators they're they're in the forefront, and that's that that's primarily where where I see see the industry headed is is towards that, where they there's still a place for your your coupon deal sites and your loyalty cashbacks. Um but with uh with the content creators and there's other technology uh evolving too, that that's that's what's really changed in the in the last decade is is just primarily the technology and allowing the these uh affiliates and content creators to become more creative and and do a lot more things than they used to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I agree. So I mean a lot of uh you know, we've had the ad advent of social media channels as well, which has just changed the way that we can connect with people and also how ambassadors can sell um on behalf of brands. And you know, 10, 15 years ago we we just didn't have access to all of that information. Now we're seeing a bit of a shift in the market due to the recession right now, here and over there in the US where you're based. And everyone's telling us not to stop the spend. But in your opinion, what can brands do right now to level up the playing field and keep their partners performing during this difficult, challenging year that we're facing?
SPEAKER_00Uh what we preach is um building relationships and making sure that your uh your partners and your affiliates are are taken care of. The the affiliate model is primarily a performance-based model, but over the years it's it's been getting interwoven into like the flat fees and things like that. But affiliate marketing is still relationship-oriented business, and you have to build those solid relationships from day one with your affiliates and and during any like period of time, whether it be a good economic time or a bad, as long as you have those relationships, you're gonna be okay. And you you you should be able to weather the storm because the trust that's been built, and that's what that's what I always constantly preach is just build relationships with your affiliates. They're not just a number or just not just a revenue generator. They're they're a partner or an extension of your team and treat them like that. And uh if if brands can can leverage that and do that well, they they can survive anything, uh no matter what's what happens in the world.
SPEAKER_02What are some of those relationship building tactics that you've kind of honed over the last 15 or so years that you've been in the marketplace? Because everybody says I'll build build a relationship, but what exactly do you mean? Because we've got a lot of new people coming into the industry listening to this podcast. And a lot of people mistake affiliate marketing for customer service or a sales role, which you and I were talking about um just before we got on here. But what are some of the tactical things that people can do to keep their relationships fresh right now as we're seeing a challenging time ahead?
SPEAKER_00And what what we do, I'm I'm going from experience of what we do, so everything that I say is stuff that we do on our end. Every new affiliate that comes in, we reach out to individually, find out more about them, understand their business, what they're looking to get out of this partnership, provide them with whatever they need to get going, and just uh keeping the communication consistent. So when we email them the first time, when they first get onboarded, we we keep it going over time where then as time goes on, they don't feel like we're just transacting. It's a legitimate partnership and that we have their best interests in mind, and then they see that, and then they're they're more willing to perform at a higher level as well, knowing that we we got their back, so to speak. So not just putting them in the program and just giving them banners, things like that. It's actually building a relationship like you would outside with with uh with friends and family, things like that. You uh otherwise it's just gonna be some just mundane task you're gonna be going through every day, just trying to go to the program. But if if if everyone is on the same page, everyone's happy, they know what they're doing, they trust, that's the big thing, and they understand that the benefits for for both parties are gonna are gonna be supreme here, then uh that that's that's the way I look at it, and the way what the agency that I operate runs and what I tell the team is you gotta just build these relationships from day one. And it's as simple as just an email or a phone call, but also just checking in on them uh occasionally too, just finding out, hey, uh we we see that your traffic's dipped off a little bit. Well, what can we do to help you kind of thing? It's stuff like that that that may seem small, but it goes a long way into building that solid relationship.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I agree with that. I mean, I think a lot of the time we do get into that transactional mindset as an affiliate program manager because we've got targets to meet, we've got deadlines to meet, you know, everybody's busy being busy in their programs. But I think really stopping for a little while and thinking about your partners as people and not just getting into that transactional mindset is one of the simplest and quickest ways that you can build meaningful relationships. And I like what you said about building a relationship is the same as how you would do with family and friends. Because a lot of the people that are more experienced in this industry who have worked in this industry for you know a good couple of decades, a lot of our affiliates are our friends because your work life and your and your personal life do get intertwined when you're working in this space. And we you know, we've got a lot of people entering into the industry and not really sure how to build their careers. So talk a little bit about you know some of the stress points that happen around being available to all of your partners all of the time and actually, you know, making sure that you're being effective in your communications and partnership building approach and not actually wasting time by being transactional too much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and that's and that's the um the the dilemma is is like is there is there such a thing as too much communication or is there not enough kind of thing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we we have it down here where it's it's pretty um regimented and like it's a it's a process. And for for new people coming in, it's it's what I like to say is go for quality over quantity. You don't need hundreds or thousands of affiliates in your program to be successful. You need just uh a few good solid partnerships that can really take the program to the next level. And then once you have those partnerships nurtured and in and going and they're producing, the the ones that you're working on simultaneously to nurture, then they'll be ready to go. So it's a constant cycle of you have current partnerships, make sure they're doing good, but but also in the background, you're you're nurturing new ones so that they can go into the position of where you're just uh talking to them constantly, but but not like managing them. You're just finding out what they need and and what what can be done to help them out. So it's it's it's always the the quality of a quantity for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, a lot of the times, you know, you you've got affiliate managers who think that they're doing the right thing by checking in with affiliates and asking them what do you need, but then they very seldom actually deliver on whatever the affiliate says. So don't actually call up an affiliate and say, Hey, what do you need? I see that your traffic's dropped, unless you're actually prepared to do something about it with them. So either have a solution in place already by looking at what's happening on their sites, maybe going through some of the tracking, if maybe tracking has dropped it, because I know in the e-commerce space, you know, there's a lot of untracked or coupon codes that might be, you know, out of date that aren't working. Um and really get under the nitty-gritty, like make your contact meaningful, which is is kind of what you said. Not just, you know, hey, how can I help you, how can I be your friend, but actually build that relationship based on every time I contact you, there's gonna be something meaningful that happens out of that transaction.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and as you mentioned, it it's it it's it's great to actually reach out to them, but if you're not providing any any help or any suggestions, it's really gonna just end there. It's gonna that that there's not gonna be anything else. So if you provide them with examples of how they can improve their conversion rate or increase their traffic to the website, they want to hear that, but then that'll also get their their gears going, and then they'll have ideas too, and then they can come back to you and say, Hey, I had this idea for this program where I can do X, Y, and Z. Are you okay with that? And then it it's it's like a starting point, like uh it stirs up a lot of other ideas in the process.
SPEAKER_02And I like that. I like the fact that you've you've said that, you know, affiliate managers, part of your job is not only to ask what you can do for them, but also to ask what your affiliates can do for you because they're seeing the market in a very different way. They're right at the front of the customer before the customer gets to your site. So really start collaborating and and listening to your partners because now in this recessionary period that we're working through, every little bit is going to help improve profit margins. So I think hopefully we're gonna see brands and networks and partners collaborating a little bit more in terms of sharing data because there's very little that can be done if you don't share data to actually improve. And I know in the past, historically, we've seen brands not want to share so much data with partners, but really I think we're gonna start to see that change. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. I think it's it's coming to the point where it's really um inevitable at this point, where the the the brands are gonna have to start being more transparent with with uh not only data but like their ultimate goals, because a lot of the more traditional uh old school thought is you just have an affiliate come on and they promote your product and you you pay them a percentage kind of thing. It's just th those days are really, really gone. The partner or affiliate interchangeable too. They they they wanna they they want to feel like they're they're involved in in helping your company grow too. And if you're not sharing information with them that they can use to be successful, then you're really uh doing a disservice to the affiliate program because there's opportunities that are being missed. And I've seen it over over the years, and now that w with with the creator economy the way it is, it makes you be more proactive in sharing information with these with these partners because you don't know who these people are. You don't know if they could be the next big influencer or next big affiliate, and you don't want to miss out on an opportunity because if if you don't, then your competitor will grab them and and and run with it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. And we are getting into a more competitive marketplace. I mean, there are more and more brands entering the performance space. There's new programs launching every day, and really understanding how to grab that market share and and hold your affiliate's attention long enough for them to buy into your product and into your program and then start to promote it is probably one of the most important things that you can do in the first six to nine months of you know running an affiliate program. I want to move on to some of the big trends that you're seeing in the market from the programs that you're managing because you do manage quite a few different programs. What are some of the big changes or things that you're seeing now early on in this year that you think are gonna move forward as as like new trends?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's a trend that's been happening for actually a little while, but it's uh a majority of the brands that that we work with and that we talk to, they they don't want to deal with the the coupon sites anymore. So they're they wanna they wanna cut them out and they wanna they want to provide that those coupon codes or those uh deals to the content producers, the one that are driving the the the high quality traffic to to their site. So that's that's one of the trends I see.
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, I mean how are you handling that conversation though with brands? Because I'm a big believer that those sites have value in an affiliate program and that they hold, especially now in a risk in a recession period, they need to be utilized as part of that kind of bottom of the funnel. Uh, you know, when the client's looking for a special deal, if you're not there, you know, you might miss that sale. So how are you handling those conversations with brands right now?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's definitely a delicate situation, and it's it's in terms of those, like those deal coupons, there's there's there's a lot of them out there, but there's only so many that are really like quality that that are worthy of working with. There's there's a lot of low quality ones out there. So it what we do is we try and um talk to the the client and say, look, these there's a lot out there. We know we know that. We work with only a certain few that we have uh um a relationship with over the years. Um here's what they do. They're not just uh a site where they throw coupons up. It's here's what we can do uh in terms of uh strategy. We can do a higher commission for uh new customers because that's that's what everyone wants. They want new new customers. So we can do a new customer strategy, we can do like um like exclusive like like placements and things like that on the email list, things like that. So I let them know that there's more to a lot of these coupon sites than just slapping a coupon up there. And and the majority of the time they understand that and they they they give it a test and they they they let it see how it works out. And a majority of the time it works out fine and they and they keep working with them. But there there's there's some clients that just absolutely refuse. They they will not even go near them.
SPEAKER_02I think that's a big pity because I think there has to be a strategy around your coupon and discounting, you know, uh performance marketing plan. And I think that brands that aren't engaging with you know very serious containers. I mean, here in the UK, we've got companies like Top Cashback, Piggy Rewards, uh Honey PayPal, like they are big, serious companies that are driving huge volumes of customer intent. And if your brand doesn't want to be visible, I mean there are you know many reasons why brands don't want to work with coupon sites, but the one of them that I came across last week was a high luxury brand that didn't want to be seen as discounting their products. And what you need to understand is that some of these coupon cashback sites, they have huge databases of customers, and you don't have to be on the homepage of their website showing that you've got a discount offer to work with them. You could be doing a very nice, you know, opted in, beautiful email campaign around a key major event that goes direct to the customer's inbox. It doesn't get shown by your competitors that you're actually discounting, it doesn't have to be flashy or look cheap. And you know, I really feel like what you've said there is important and and and we need to kind of hone in on it a little bit here because you have to have a strategy to work with these types of partners, just like you do with an SEO partner, just like you do with you know mobile uh, you know, traffic driver or or even you know subnetworks, whatever it is that you're doing. But I feel like if you cut any one type of partner out of your program, you're doing yourself a disservice in terms of brand reach and also customer engagement. What what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_00Well, we also look at it like the diversity too, like the the uh affiliate diversity, because if you rely on one type of affiliate and they go away, your program's done. So the if you diversify in the in in all the different types of affiliates, you your affiliate program will be um set up for success in the long run. Uh because if you have a diverse program and you lose a couple of affiliates, you might not feel it as much as if you if you had one like content producers as your only type of affiliate and a couple of those go away, you're gonna feel it. So um we we like to talk about and and and discuss diversity of your affiliates. And I I I actually did a uh a webinar with a commission factory in Australia almost two years ago on that and on affiliate diversity and why it's important. And yeah, it's it's one of those things where i if you don't diversify, you're only you're only gonna grow so much.
SPEAKER_02And you can't sustain it.
SPEAKER_00No, it's it and that's the thing. And that's and that's why it's funny because these these brands hire companies like us to grow their affiliate program, but then they come in and say, no, no, I don't want to do that. I I'm not willing to do that, but they don't really understand, and that's that's why they hired us because they don't understand affiliate. And we we talked about it with the lack of education earlier before we got on here, and it's just with uh not only with people not knowing how to manage an affiliate program, it's just brands don't understand affiliate marketing in general, and they just and they they think of like coupon sites and and and and deal sites, that's what they think affiliate marketing isn't like fraud and all that, but it's not maybe it was years ago, but it's not like that anymore. There's still fraud, but it's it's it it's so so much more um uh I guess diverse. You can you can have so many different partners and it it it's it's really only to your benefit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and the other thing is that the the brands don't get to see the data that We see as OVMs. So when we're managing multiple AVIDA programs, we're pulling lots of levers, lots of different traffic sources, different placements across different brands. And we do get an insight into the industry that when you're working in just one program, you simply don't get, which kind of brings me on to my next point, which is kind of why why do brands need agencies like us? Well, it's because we have this access to data and knowledge that they simply will never get to see working one-on-one in a network. Um, and we make these decisions and have these commercial understandings of how certain partners and different segmentation metrics impact a brand's growth and a program's growth over time. A lot of uh tactical points that that we learn on the job and have learned on the job through doing multiple you know program management tactics is what helps us to scale. So talk to us a little bit about you know, from your experience, um what are some of the tactical things that you can give you know affiliate managers listening to this this podcast right now that can really help them to grow their performance through this channel? What are some of the key things that you would suggest that you do? So we spoke about you know segmentation and actually making sure that your program's diverse, but what are some of the other tactical things that you can share from your experience?
SPEAKER_00Um we in what we do is in in the brands that we manage, we we have like it's like five five pillars of management. And there's the the top two is recruiting and activation. So you always have to be recruiting no matter what. You you have you may have a million dollar a month program, but you still want to be recruiting because you want to go back to what we just talked about before. You want to make sure you have a diverse base. Recruiting is not as easy as as it sounds going out finding affiliates. You gotta know where they where they are, who they are, how to contact them, uh, and then then getting them on board is another sort of thing. So it's a big process. So that's why recruiting is one of the most uh talked about challenges in growing an affiliate program, is because the brands and affiliate managers that are running them don't know where to find this information.
SPEAKER_02And I just want to caveat that it's not necessarily always in your network. Like those the the recruitment still needs to happen both in the network with the partners that are living there, but also outside of the network with the partners that could be on a TikTok channel or something else and haven't actually signed into the traditional network. So recruiting, I 100% agree. It's one of the biggest challenges that affiliate managers face.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and we we use the affiliate networks, um, but we we're outside the affiliate networks more than we're inside them recruiting because the the the affiliates, the affiliates and the partners uh outside are they they can be more beneficial, more profitable, but it comes back to education again. Of course, we're going back to the education piece. The the brands that are on these affiliate networks don't know because there's nothing telling them that they can go outside the network and bring on new ones. They they just think whatever's there is is there, and that's what they've got to work with. But then the next piece is the activation. So you've got all these affiliates in there, well, then you're you you get upset that they're not active. The problem is there's no strategy behind that either. There's there should be a pretty robust strategy around activation. So you have a recruiting strategy. How are you gonna get them active? Uh are you gonna provide them like incentives like when they first start out, like a first sale bonus, like a tiered commission structure based on their sales? What are you gonna do to get them active? Are you gonna provide them samples? Like all this needs to be discussed and and put put down in on paper of how's it gonna work? Because um if you if you want active affiliates, you're gonna have to engage with them and find out what they what they want and and what's gonna what's gonna motivate them. Otherwise, you're gonna just have uh have a stagnant group of affiliates, and and then you're gonna say affiliate doesn't work because they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing, but in in the end, you never really provided them anything for them to do anything with.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I agree with that. And you know, the thing is what I try and tell affiliate managers that come through our training course is think of your affiliates like you do your customers. When your customer hits your shop for the first time or your front page for the first time, what are you offering your customer? What journey are you leading that customer on? Because everybody's focused on making sure that the customer converts, but not many of us are focused on making sure that the partner that we're trying to recruit into our program converts. Um we st we tend to still think of it as set and forget. Like once the program's built and and somebody can apply, they must just find their own way through the kind of our, you know, the the navigation of the platform or the network, and they need to go find out all the own information about the products and services that you're promoting. And you know, they need to go and and then they need to start doing some work to create content and actually start generating leads. But the quicker you can make that onboarding process and the quicker you can make that activation process and perhaps even automate it so that it feels natural and it feels like it's personalized, which we can do right now. The better user experience your partners are gonna have and the more loyal they're gonna be to your program versus some of your competitors who might be doing that already. So I think it's very important that you know we focus not just on any one area of growing an affiliate program, but we focus on all of the areas of what it takes to grow and sustain an affiliate program over time. Because I've dealt with affiliate managers who are starting out and they go, Oh, it's so difficult to find affiliates. And then I'm dealing with affiliate account managers who manage, you know, programs that have been around for, you know, seven, eight years and are like big, big, big, and they're struggling to actually continue to grow their programs. So there's a different life cycle strategy for every stage of your program. And making sure that you're touching all of the key pillars, as you mentioned before, is very, very important to continue your program growth. Like you can never really rest as an affiliate manager.
SPEAKER_00Well, and that's and that's the the problem is that I see is the the brands don't understand how much work is involved in growing an affiliate program. Uh you you can you can put up a Facebook ad campaign, Instagram ad campaign, and start seeing results immediately, but affiliate is not like that. You you gotta put the time in, you gotta you gotta build the the awareness, you gotta get out there and and recruit new affiliates and and really uh do it uh aggressively at the beginning, because uh chances are they're not gonna just find your program just by by them looking for it. You gotta go find them. And uh and and and that's the that's the biggest thing is like the the the time allocation needed for an affiliate program. It uh I I'm I I say it all the time. It's it's it's a full-time, it's a full-time job, period.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And and I think sometimes that's not reflected in the way that agencies pitch either, because you know, time is money, money costs, you know, it's time costs money, and everybody wants everything done on the cheap. But I think in affiliate marketing, you definitely get what you pay for. You know, if you're looking for a junior grad to come in and just do basic customer support and facilitate, you know, admin queries, that's gonna cost you this much. But if you want somebody like us who's got 20 years' experience, who has literally built this industry and and learned our craft on the job with hours and hours of mistakes and learnings, it's gonna cost this much. So I think affiliate is the one channel, the one digital channel where you can't skimp and where it is time and labor intensive to continue building. It's almost like tending a garden. It's seasonal as well. Every year you've got to do different things to grow a little bit more. And every year you're gonna tend that garden, you're gonna plant the seeds with new partners coming in, you're gonna pull out the old bulbs from the ones that have like dropped off. You're gonna go find new plants to plant in spaces where you know it's sunny or where you know it's shady. And uh, you know, I think that's probably one of the best analogies I've ever come up with. Not to sound cheesy, but affiliate marketing is kind of like gardening. Every year you've got to redo that garden, and every year you've got to re-look at what your strategy is gonna be and how your program's grown from the year before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's and I think a lot strategies. I think this the keyword strategy, my in my opinion, is the one piece that's really missing from all this. Um there's no there's there's no like plan or strategy to to grow. They just go in there and be like oh, we need new affiliates. Let's just go find a couple, bring them in, then what do you do with them? Like uh they may they may produce for a for a while, but then once the levels off, then what do you do? It's it's just there has to be some uh some some real guidance on on how to develop a full-fledged strategy. I think I think that's that's the biggest thing. Like you and I talked about it's just education, we keep going back to this, education is is lacking, and uh there's got to be something out there that where uh where it's it's provides these brands, well, it gives them a little more like a little more of like an advantage to get started and not to just kick the can down the road and starting a program.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. Well, that's kind of why I've built affiliate insider for you to come and learn all of these things and hear from experienced people like you that have been doing this job for many, many years. So we know there's a lot of competition at play, and we know that times have changed a lot since you and I first entered the industry. But one of the things that I wanted to ask you, just for the people that are listening, is what's the one thing you wish you could tell your younger affiliate manager self if hindsight was available then versus now? Like if you're starting out in this industry, what's the one piece of advice that you can give to new affiliate managers coming in about how they can improve and grow their career and actually really like take this industry and and enjoy it as they go ahead? Because you and I have made lots of mistakes to get to where we are now. We've learned along the way. What's the kind of one big thing that you wish you could tell your younger self?
SPEAKER_00In the first few years of affiliate marketing, I wish I would have um not been as as scared to ask questions and talk to people, um, whether they're competitors or not. Um people want to help. There, there's people out there that are willing to help. If you just if you ask the the people, the right people, they will help you. Uh and that was that's something that if I could do it all over again, I would have been more aggressive in talking to people um instead of trying to figure it out myself. Um it would have saved me uh a lot of time. I would have been been growing my career a lot faster.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. I totally agree with that. And to be honest with you, for anybody that's listening, if you ever see me at a show and you want to stop and talk about affiliate marketing, I'm only happy to stop and talk because most of the people in my life don't even have a clue as to what I do. So if somebody's genuinely interested in affiliate marketing and they want to learn, I'm only too happy to stop and talk and have a five, ten-minute conversation. So I think what you said there is so true. You know, we we're a small, tight-knit community and learning is very difficult. You have to do it on the job and you have to learn from other people that are learning ahead of you, basically. So if you find somebody at an event that you identify with and that you want to ask questions with, don't be shy. Stop us and talk to us because we're only too happy to talk about what we've been doing for the last 20 years of our lives with people that actually care and understand it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I I talked to um at affiliate summit a few weeks ago. I was talking to my competitors, I'm friends, I'm friends with a lot of them. And we were we were talking about business, and it's like I'm not afraid to talk to them and I can and see what's going on with them because at the end of the day, there's a business for everybody. I'm not I'm not here to steal their business and take away clients like that. Uh I genuinely want to figure this out and learn. And if I can help somebody learn and grow their career and help them with an affiliate program, I'm happy to do it just like you are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally. Okay, so we want to round this one off because we're coming to the end of this podcast and we've shared like loads of nuggets here. So hopefully our editorial team is gonna clip all of these out for you guys so you've got little bites, uh sound bites. But where do you see the future of affiliate marketing headed this year, especially since it started off being such a challenge? What what do you think the affiliate and performance industry is going to look like in say 12 months' time?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's uh from where it's heading, I the the um the creator uh community, that that's where I think a lot of this is heading is like uh YouTube, Instagram, uh TikTok. That that's where I think a lot of this is going because the younger generations, the coming up, they're not using like Google to search for things anymore. They're using like TikTok and and all these social media platforms to find things that they need to solve their problems. And if brands aren't leveraging those, then they're gonna they're gonna be in trouble. And I see that's one of the trends that that I'm watching closely is is how quickly that's going to move in that direction. Um it's it's going there, it's just a matter of how quickly it's gonna really uh escalate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I totally agree. I think we're we're seeing a lot of case studies come through now over the last two years or so, where ambassadors are becoming a much bigger part of the partnership economy that we're working in. And people are really trying to tweak the smaller nano influences or you know, micro influencers, whatever you want to call them, to see how they can leverage the group influence that these guys have. Because it's not about the big numbers. And and I think you mentioned that at the beginning of this podcast, it's not about a thousand affiliates, it's about having five that are active or having ten that are active and loyal to your program. So really focusing in on those little like niches and and and seeing where you can extract value out of word of mouth referrals, even, um, which are becoming easier to do through social channels. I think that's a big trend. And and I think we're gonna see a lot more of that in programs as the segmentation dissipates away from you know the key content drivers that have traditionally driven programs in the past. So I'm excited because I think you know, we're gonna see a lot more segmentation, which is what we've been banging on about for the last two or three years. We're gonna see a lot more content, interesting content being curated around brands because brands are feeling more comfortable in terms of giving influencers and and ambassadors freedom to talk about their products without you know overly controlling the brand narrative. And I think that's great for customers because they will kind of navigate through to the channels where they feel trust and where they get sold a product in a much more amenable way. So less marketing and more relevance almost, which I think is exciting for for marketers to be looking at right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I I agree. And then in terms of the compensation model, that's it's it's evolving. And the the way I think it's going is it's gonna be a lot of these content creators right now, they they want like the flat fees up front. Uh, I think it's gonna more uh uh evolve into more of the the hybrid where where it's been it's been there in the past, but I think it's gonna come back now. And the thing I think what what problem the affiliate managers have is they're not selling the content creators on the uh the the the affiliate commission is is forever. Like you do if if if your content lives somewhere, it it can it can generate you money forever. And I think that's one of the issues is is is that the affiliate managers don't do a good enough job in selling that piece of it too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally agree. Well, Rick, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast and behind my mic for a change. I hope you've enjoyed yourself on the affiliate marketing podcast with me today, and thanks so much for sharing all of the insights from the affiliate marketplace as you see it.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Legion. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01This podcast is brought to you by AMP, the affiliate manager performance program is designed for ambitious affiliate program managers working at brands, agencies, or affiliate networks that are looking to grow and scale their affiliate programs and partner performances. We've already helped hundreds of affiliate program managers from a range of industries get the best out of their affiliate partnerships and build consistent sales within their affiliate programs. With just one hour per week over a 12-week period, this program is unlike any other. You'll learn proven tactics, tested strategies, and access decades of experience with industry veterans who have launched, scaled and grown multi-million dollar affiliate programs around the world. Book your seat on our next cohort by visiting our website, affiverst.com, and hit the training menu. From there, you can register your interest for our next cohort launch or contact our sales team to find out more. That's www.afiv.com. That's a wrap for this week's affiliate marketing podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down, why not head over to Apple IT and give us a five-star review? Make sure to subscribe to our podcast and our YouTube channel so you never miss another insightful episode or one of our free webinars ever again. Tune in next week for more digital affiliate marketing insights, trends, tips, and content to keep your affiliate and performance marketing fresh and your partners driving consistent sales.