You're listening to the Affiliate Marketing Podcast brought to you by Affifast.com, the chapter and verse of everything you need for running successful affiliate programs and partnership management. This is a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers, publishers, networks, agencies, and Martech providers who operate in affiliate marketing. If you want to launch, scale, and grow successful affiliate marketing programs, you're in the right place. In this podcast, you'll learn how affiliate and partner marketing is changing. Gain behind the mic access to affiliate marketing veterans. Listen and learn tried and tested program management tactics. Discover what's new and trending in affiliate and performance marketing. The truth is, you simply won't find this information anywhere else. If you're looking to launch an affiliate program but aren't 100% sure where or how to begin. Or you've launched your affiliate program but something isn't working and you're struggling to scale, we can help. Book a free 15-minute strategy call with our Affiverse agency team to find out how we can help you get to where you want to be. We offer a range of affiliate program management services, from strategy and consulting to technical setups and complex affiliate program migrations. Our award-winning agency team handles everything from affiliate strategy to affiliate partner recruitment and a deep dive affiliate program audits. We help you make affiliate marketing simple. Don't waste time struggling to get the results you need and deserve. Visit www.affivest.com and click on the agency button to book a call now. Now, here's your award-winning affiliate and performance marketing host, industry veteran, and your affiliate marketing guide and founder of Affiverse, Leanne Johnston.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to the Affiliate Marketing Podcast with me, Leanne Johnston, your host. And today I'm super excited because I've got Haylink.com on this podcast with me today and two very important people. We've got Alex, the CEO, and Simon, the head of product, two of the main people at this company to talk through some of the interesting topics that we're going to be touching on today in terms of tracking and the state of the nation of tracking and affiliate marketing. So before we get started, I'll tell you a little bit about Haylink. They believe that affiliate link management should be automated, transparent, and profitable. And their platform makes it a reality, giving publishers the freedom to explore the full potential of their content by monetizing it. So before we begin, I'll let Alex and Simon say a quick hello to you guys and tell us a little bit about how you got into tracking and affiliate marketing and digital, because I think that's always the most interesting place to start.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having us, Lee. And we're looking forward to this meeting. So but I can I can start saying something about how we we went into or came into to affiliate marketing. So uh so Simon and I started working with affiliate marketing about 10 years ago when we saw how effective the technology was for generating leads and sales to e-commerce platform, uh, and as a result, how much revenue you could generate by being an affiliate publisher. And since we both had a lot of experience working with SEO and online marketing, we decided to test it out by building various comparison sites in different work verticals. Um and within a short period, we had more than 30 different comparison sites in five different countries, generating thousands of leads every month. Um, our only issue was that the amount of traffic sites and affiliate programs were almost impossible to manage. And it uh it became a big challenge for us to scale the company. So we were mainly working in the Nordist at that time. So um so we decided to invest uh our profits from these comparison sites, these classical affiliate comparison sites, into building this platform that allowed us to automize and optimize all the manual processes uh we met as affiliate publishers. And uh after some years working on this, we decided decided to uh to sell our comparison sites uh to uh to a major affiliate corporation to focus solely on the technology. And that was actually the start of uh of Hay Link.
SPEAKER_01So good story. So you actually come from the grassroots and you've had these challenges yourself, which is quite interesting because often that's how tech companies are built, is that there's a problem, a pain point, and then a solution that's been found. So, Simon, talk to us a little bit about the product and talk to us about what made you decide to actually get involved in this project and continue to build Hay Link into what it is today.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. So when we had, as Alex said, uh I think 30 websites across different markets, the the challenges of just managing and and uh actually seeing where the performance was good, where it was where it was bad, um joining all these Excel sheets, uh data from networks, from direct uh uh partners and all that, that was just a really big challenge. And uh and that of course led to us building the the system um uh for our needs. Um and uh um we we thought that when we when we actually showed this to other people, uh they they were quite impressed and said we need that too. Um so that was kind of why we also uh uh progressed with with the uh the platform itself. And and the challenges, well there are plenty, but the main challenges would be to actually uh have uh tracking on each click, uh each click ends up somewhere, and you need to know if that uh click uh ends up converting. Uh, you need to attribute uh value to that click. So basically uh it all comes down to the clicks, right? So we started tracking every click, making sure to attribute it back to the original content. And that made a huge difference uh for us. Uh just that one thing, uh, making sure that you know uh when and where every click happens and if that click uh generates value. Um and then you start adding on to it with uh with tracking uh who are you clicking to, uh which time frame, all that stuff. So it just gives you a lot of insights uh when you start uh tracking all of your clicks. And then of course comes the automation, where as we had uh 30 websites and uh uh five markets, well, there's a lot of different affiliate campaigns that we need to manage, and some of them are closing, some of them are changing their CPA, their commission all the time. So so we we we also uh saw the need for an uh system to actually just keep taps on uh which campaign should I send the traffic to automatically and make sure that um if a campaign closes, well it that shouldn't uh at least uh uh it shouldn't uh become a broken affiliate link or anything like that. Uh we we wanted it to be uh a smooth experience for the users um so that uh our websites would remain uh high quality uh through even though we they were stuffed with affiliate links, we wanted to make sure that people didn't end up in in the wrong place clicking them, at least. So so the automation uh it would would actually automate the campaign uh management in itself uh too. So so that was the two pain points uh that we solved with the system there.
SPEAKER_01I love those two pain points because the two pain points that have been floating around our industry for the last two decades since I've been in it, and nobody's ever really been able to solve it until now. So if anybody's listening to this podcast and you're on the publishing side, head on over to haylink.com because you're gonna want to go and have a look at how you can actually optimize your tracking and make sure that you're not losing out on conversions and sales. But the other key thing that you guys touched on, which I think affiliate managers that are listening to this podcast need to know, is the challenges that their partners are facing. Because I hear affiliate managers going, oh, you know, I can't get through to my affiliates. They're not actually, you know, doing anything. But they're therein, you just mentioned you had 30 sites that you were managing when you were both publishers. You were you know tracking multiple different campaigns, program terms were changing all the time. So let's drill down into some of these key challenges because I think it's important to talk about the problems that you face in your day-to-day life when you're working with multiple different programs and how this tool can actually help to fix those problems.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Um, so uh in in terms of uh of let's let's just make an example of a website. It might be a comparison side, it might be uh uh um review site of sorts. Um but in uh in terms of of just automating all your campaign management, Hilling actually makes sure to import all the data and then look at the data uh to actually see um or look at the campaign data to actually uh kind of review and see where should the traffic go. So in uh in a case where where you you need to manage, uh let's say it's a review site for vacuum cleaners and every all tech in your home sort of thing. You can have up to a hundred different web shops, right, in your LinkedIn to. Uh that that becomes uh uh kind of impossible to manage. If you do product feeds and stuff like that, you have some help. Product feeds on it on its own is is a is an issue uh for many people as well. But managing the campaigns, uh managing uh the performance of all of these, uh it just makes it hard. So uh our system uh goes in and makes it possible to actually uh send traffic to the web shops that gives you the best uh um uh commission. Uh many uh web shops will have the same vacuum cleaner, right? So there will be maybe 10 uh web shops that actually are able to give you a commission on on a vacuum cleaner. And that whole show changes uh daily, right? So if you have uh let's just say a hundred different web shops, you have uh 300 products and uh on your website uh and that's one website, right? Then then you start seeing the the the issues of managing uh the the links uh and uh the performance, uh uh seeing uh what performs best. So there's a lot of different scenarios, of course. Uh some people will will have a strategy to just link to the best uh converting web shop uh each month. You'll do one overview and say, okay, we have the best converting web shop here, let's let's take only products from them. Um and that works to a point, but but of course, if you want to optimize and get those last uh 10, 20, 30 percent uh performance, you need to be able to dynamically uh link to to the correct uh uh web shops. So um and it the same thing goes for service providers, uh gaming industry, uh all that. Most of the times uh sending a lot of traffic to uh a few uh providers, um and uh those are the ones where you have if you have high volumes, you have high CTAs, that high volume, uh just uh a small bump in the CPA is gonna mean a lot of money uh lost if you are not actually quick enough to switch these uh campaigns around. So so um it it applies to everyone basically, uh and it it it really helps you uh just just managing uh your outgoing all of your outgoing traffic. And it's also uh in in our mind actually important to see the stuff you aren't getting paid for. Um because a lot of people are uh um uh making their websites um more attractive by writing guides uh and maybe even linking to stuff they aren't making money on today. Um but that that um that makes it possible for a lot of uh of traffic to to uh go out of your site uh unnoticed. So if you just make a guide and it actually becomes popular uh and you're linking to something that is not monetized, uh we would catch that and actually show that to you. Uh and if it's actually possible to monetize, we would actually also show that. We'll say uh we've actually seen someone link to uh commercialized link, uh which is xyz.com, you can earn money on that uh on that link. So so we actually connect the dots uh and say it's possible to earn money on the traffic you're sending to this specific domain.
SPEAKER_01It's really cool actually because everybody and and it's quite timely that we're having this discussion right now because we're living in you know rising costs of living around the world, we're in heading into recession. Businesses are looking at how they can, you know, make incremental like increases on their bottom line, their margin, and your tool actually does it. That's what you've just explained. So if you're a publisher listening in here, like go check out Hay Link because you might be losing out on incremental margins that you're missing simply because you don't have transparency. Now, Alex, I know you and I had a long chat about the the need for better transparency in our industry. Talk to us a little bit about you know what the big big challenges are with programs, networks, publishers not having that transparency, and and why Haylink actually can help solve those problems.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so that's a really good question. And something we hear both from advertisers and publishers in the affiliate marketing space. It's uh so, like in any other online marketing technology, it's not a secret that that affiliate marketing has its ups and downs. Um, and if we look at at the negative uh part, first of all, all the new tracking limitation that comes from regulation and a need for privacy definitely makes it more uh difficult for affiliate marketers to attribute the conversion and leads. Um and it almost makes it and makes it almost impossible for advertisers to know where they need to invest the marketing spends and therefore also decreasing the value of the publishers. So this is something we have met both uh seeing an issue being an issue from from publishers because it's devaluing uh the the media that they own. So if an advertiser can attribute sales back to the right platform, uh they would actually uh yeah, devalue the media. And on the other side, the advertiser don't know where to invest the money, they don't know uh if they can't see the whole funnel, if they can't see where is uh we see a lot of we are working with a lot with big publishing houses, and they're normally typically the the upper funnel uh click. So they would typically send a lot of traffic into advertisers, but uh but but but will not get the the the return that the lower funnel high converting media are are getting. And that's a big issue uh because they're actually delivering a lot of value by being both both giving some branding, of course, but also uh just uh giving awareness about the product. So so uh so this is this is uh this is an issue that we're really trying to look into and trying to see how we can create a bigger transparency in the market uh for tracking. So uh so not only the next click is being attributed, but also the first and assist click. So we want to see the whole the whole funnel, the whole click trace as as uh as a value driver to uh to the lead that have been generated within the advertising.
SPEAKER_01Do you find that some publishers are actually now feeding back their data to the programs that they're in? Like are they using the Haylink um dashboard to actually get insights and feed that back to the programs that they're managing too? So it's like a two-way communication. It's not just about the publisher making sure that they're you know optimizing their traffic and getting paid, but they're also feeding back the insights that they're picking up from stuff that your platform is is basically telling them. Are they do you see that as a two-way communication that's happening in the space?
SPEAKER_02Definitely. And that's back to the transparency. So so again, we have a lot of big advertisers that have actually chosen not to work with affiliate marketing because they couldn't, they couldn't see the whole uh the whole journey. And uh being able to see to attribute multiple charge points on one deed, we have given them the incentive to work with affiliate marketing again. So the most important thing that we see again, uh transparency, if if they don't know how much they're paying for the deed, and if they don't know how much uh how many uh charge points has been attributed to the deed, it's the it's almost impossible for them to invest in in affiliate marketing.
SPEAKER_01Now I'm gonna go a little bit off piste here, okay, and I'm gonna ask you some stuff. And you're welcome to share some of the numbers because I'm pretty sure that you must have access to a lot of insights and data. For the people that are using Haylink, both publisher side and also media side, which you've mentioned now, what are some of the uplifts that are happening like before and after they use your platform? Like what what's the incrementality that we're talking about here? Is it is it quite significant? Like what have what are some of the case studies that you guys have seen?
SPEAKER_02So without going too much into detail, um we we we typically see that again, it depends on on we're looking on the advertiser or the um on the publisher side, but but as soon as uh as our when our tracking is being installed, we normally see an uplifting conversion rate. That's that's the that's the first thing that uh that we experience. The other thing is that we also see um so when you use hailing, you have you install the script and we can monitor, we can both we both look look at page views, clicks, conversion, and of course revenue that's the commission being paid out. And when using the hailing script, we can add we can look at the page views only on the commercial articles, the commercial um content pieces, and therefore they they have a bit of they have a better understanding of how well a content piece performs. So when when we have a uh when we have a big media house, they will they will normally the first thing they look at of is of course how many how many readers uh do they have on this specific page. Then they look at how well how many are clicking on to to uh to one of the advertisers that they work with. And of course, the the last part is uh is is the conversion rate, how many how many users are actually acquiring a product that has been referred from one of these articles. And we see that the the media, the media companies, they are mostly looking for having a high click-through rate as possible, whereas the advertisers are looking more on the conversion rate. They want to attribute as many sales back as possible. So that's that's just two ways of looking at it, depending whether you're an advertiser or a publisher.
SPEAKER_03And like I love examples. Uh, and I'd like to give an example uh of uh of one of the big publishers that uh that Alex is probably talking about. So for for them, it's it's all real time. Uh if if if you're a big publisher uh with uh a lot of news articles, for example, um, you are looking at uh live performance. So you're seeing uh is this this article should that be in the top? Um and when the commercial content comes in, that the same goes for that, right? So these big publishers will will uh feature uh uh commercial piece and uh look at the performance uh instantly inhaling. So uh if that piece performs, um they will be able to view the both the clicks and the conversions and and the performance uh real time. And that uh that enables them to actually feature that piece even more or keep it featured, uh, whereas normally they would maybe uh uh uh put it further down the the website. Uh and this means the the the gain is actually is not just 10 or 20 percent because they are able to catch the ones that perform really well uh real time, so they feature them uh even more. And and that means that on on uh on some of our clients when they start um actually featuring uh their uh their content prominently, uh the content that is is doing well, uh they earn twice as much or five times as much. So it it's it's uh that's also a strategy change, right? It's not just the software that does that, that is also the strategy change. But uh the software uh or the platform enables that uh change where you are able to in real time uh look at the performance across maybe 10 different affiliate networks, right? Uh uh campaigns coming uh and campaign data coming in in in real time. So so that that's on the publisher side where that enables uh uh a huge um um uh margin of of uh of uh of growth. And on the the advertiser side uh it it it's kind of the same thing. Uh we we do enable the advertisers to actually see all the traffic that is coming from a partner. Um so today uh if you are an advertiser and you're getting a lot of clicks from uh an affiliate publisher, uh maybe through uh an affiliate network. Well you have the affiliate networks uh numbers to trust, right? You will have to log into the affiliate network, uh, and of course, if you are in multiples, you will have to log into multiple affiliate networks and look at the affiliate network uh performance. And the the you might be able to see which media it's coming from. Uh you might not, but uh you might also be able to see it in real time, or you might not be able to reach it in real time, depending on the affiliate network, right? So, as an advertiser, you you have to log into the affiliate network to see this data instead of actually uh uh looking at it in your system and some some advertisers will look at Google and say well we got uh we got 100 conversions from uh this advertiser through this affiliate network but as Google is not set up to track uh uh traffic coming from multiple sources uh that way unless you are uh very uh have a very uh specific setup in in Google Analytics, uh you will not see the correct numbers either. Speaking from experience that is what people do. They log into Google Analytics. They don't sit and log into the affiliate network 10 10 times a day. They log into Google and they or Google Data Studio whatever they use to actually see the performance. Some even don't venture outside of their own e-commerce system. They just use their own number numbers totally. So if they're not set up to actually attribute the the the sales correctly even in their own system right uh it it it won't show uh correctly either for them. So it's just looking at the the same number no one's looking at the same numbers right the affiliate is just looking at some there maybe even their own numbers right uh and they're looking at the affiliate the network numbers looking at Google Analytics numbers uh all these numbers just wildly skewed um due to the trading scenario there is today.
SPEAKER_01Back in the day when I was doing media buying it was kind of like almost like a 10% differential between different platforms in terms of what you're seeing, what they're seeing. And that was always kind of accepted but is it actually 10% because you know I think it's a little bit more when you start talking about cross-platform tracking and all all the today it's a lot more. And that's quite a lot. You know like if you're missing 10% and you're making bad decisions based on the data that you're given, you could be putting the wrong messages in front of the wrong customers. You could be you know giving them broken links that aren't actually working anymore because you you haven't logged into the network for a couple of weeks and something's changed or it actually becomes a when you start talking about it practically you can start to see that this becomes a huge problem both for the advertisers and also for the publishers that are you know spinning their wheels to actually drive the traffic forward. And if you don't have you know a shithot affiliate manager looking at the data all the time and telling you hey I'm seeing a lot of clicks but not much conversion can you go double check your tracking links? You can be missing out on money on the table here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and absolutely and and you are also very dependent on these affiliate managers doing the the job uh in if you are let's say you are a big big company that has a thousand affiliates uh managing them uh it's gonna be uh near impossible right so uh most of the most will have uh an affiliate network with uh a paid manager to actually manage all of those affiliates right uh and that manager uh uh will will uh do do his or her best but but it it will also be hard for them right and um you know sending an email to an affiliate uh uh you'll maybe get an answer 30 days later it is just very hard and that makes it hard to manage so so you need some kind of uh system to to actually see um the the performance also in order to catch as you say uh the the broken links and all that stuff uh because that will be uh much more visible when you have one uh one system where it's it's it's shown um and today uh if you just manage um everything in in in google uh analytics uh well uh google analytics will not show that it comes from an affiliate network it will try to kind of get the source and some of it will have the the ad server uh URL shown as the source and and some will have the the affiliate uh UTM parameters and it'll just be a mid uh a big uh pile of of uh stuff you you can't really get any good numbers from right so so getting everything uh sorted in in the right way is is is actually very important to just uh manage uh day to day as well I think and I see and this inconsistency and inaccuracy in the tracking is something that yeah of course it's a big issue for the publishers but we're seeing a lot of advertisers that are really suffering from from from this lack of transparency and this lack of of of tracking possibilities um especially now when when third party cookies is being vanished uh they're not able to see because again it's it's it can be small affiliate advertisers that are using Google Analytics to attribute the sales back to to to the right platforms but if they can't see where the sales come from they will they will just not use that platform. And we have a very big comparison side in the Nordics that are actually using a lot of advertisers they're sending the same amount of traffic the same amount of quality traffic but because of this lack of uh tracking or this uh inconsistency that these small affiliates on the advertiser side are still using Google Analytics and it it has not been set up correctly they're just not using uh they're just not uh do not work with these big uh affiliate publishers anymore because they're afraid that the money are going uh to something that they're not paying for uh or they're paying for so it's uh it's uh it's a really big issue uh for for for both publishers because they're not presenting the right value and it's a big issue for the advertisers because they they are missing out on some some really good uh revenue drivers um because they can attribute it back.
SPEAKER_01So that's uh something that we really hope to to to uh to see a change in so adoption rates are obviously uh I mean they must be quite good because you're solving a pain point that nobody else solves at this point. But what exactly does Haylink do differently to other tracking tools? Like can you just drill down very quickly and give the top five things that your platform does that really will make people sit up and think and I do want you to touch on some of the uh GDPR and privacy um points as well because I think that's very important to mention right now especially you know as different markets are regulating and um you know the US is now talking about a federal state GDPR ruling it which is just going to become a nightmare for people to actually drive traffic. So talk a little bit about what your your platform does that's super special.
SPEAKER_03So this is mostly for the advertisers right because uh for the publisher side that's that's another story uh and not as as uh as big an a of an issue but um landing uh everyone lands on an advertise website and that's where the the problems start basically right so gdbr is a big thing right now and uh uh our our system uh makes it possible to to uh just um actually be compliant uh uh in the terms that you said uh so today when you actually actually uh enter an advertising website most of them will if you press no to cookies uh they'll just cut off any everything right so they will not load anything uh just being afraid of of of a lawsuit um and uh that it's probably 50-50s uh so so 50% of the advertisers will just not load any cookies not load anything at all not send uh track page views in Google Analytics they they they will just cut off everything uh and the other half will the probably or maybe the other 40 all the 40% will just uh keep loading stuff uh illegally basically um so that's that that's tracked but but not compliant uh and then there are the 10% that actually set it up to track anonymously uh which is is is the way to go right um so so you can you can track a page view uh anonymously you don't have to to actually uh have a GDPR consent for that um so so there are stuff to do uh where you you can uh make sure to to get uh gather information uh without having uh to also um um go into all this this gdbr uh stuff so it's of course nice to have consent because then you can track in a myriad of ways uh and and we also do that of course um if if we have consent well tracking is not new and and and we don't we we haven't invented uh uh so to say uh new tracking uh we we I think we just do it smarter right uh we we make sure to to actually um build uh upon a GDPR to to make sure that that we we track compliantly and and um that's maybe because we're as new as we are because because we we had GDPR uh growing up I'd say right so so so we just uh we just make sure to be compliant about it and uh the the the the major difference uh in in our system uh and and maybe uh the the the common uh setup out there is I think in in in most cases uh the affiliate networks has been great at at uh implementing new forms of tracking that doesn't load uh third party uh pixels and all that stuff I think all the affiliate networks are ready for for third party not to make things but uh the issue is that if if um if you follow all the affiliate networks uh integration um um the the new integration stuff then you have to spend a lot of time uh doing it you have to make sure that your legal department is actually uh checked off and all the affiliate networks do not uh have any uh sort of uh GDR guidance uh in that regard uh in most cases so you you have it's up to you to actually make sure that you load this correctly and uh you don't know what is collected you have uh maybe uh at some point you will just load uh tracking everywhere uh not knowing if if it's uh compliant or not uh some will just uh load it half the time right when people click no they'll not load it uh publishers will get mad because well there is no tracking on the website uh when people uh press no so it's uh there's there's a lot of stuff that that it comes um before there's a lot of issues that that needs to be to be addressed uh in in in setting up tracking so what we are doing is actually uh making sure that we can um um fit in at every level uh every combined department or every legal department has their own uh level of risk uh when it comes to GPR so we just make sure that we can fit in everywhere we can fit in uh and we can track everything if if that is something that is needed um and we can um we can detect uh consent uh uh early stage and late stage and change the way we uh track we can also after consent is giving use uh some first party data which is which you can give consent to on multiple uh stages of of of the tracking as well so there's there's a lot of stuff uh and it's very technical of course but but I would say the main difference with us is that we just make sure that we uh we are very dynamic in the way that we track uh and we always uh try to to make sure that we are compliant in the way we track and we always guide the customer to to try and be compliant in the way they track uh while keeping as much data as possible.
SPEAKER_02So right now it seems most advertisers do the uh on and off switch basically uh whereas there's uh there's a a a good middle way to to be had in most cases um of course every workshop uh or advertiser is is uh is different um and also where they're legally uh um like the jurisdiction right what country they're from and all that stuff so it's it's it's very different um but we we are able to comply uh on on all all uh stages of of uh of training um i think that that is the main part of it alex i want to come to you just to kind of close down this very informative session you've been around in the affiliate space for a while so tell me what do you think the future of affiliate marketing looks like so it's like uh i would say uh a mix of all the things that we just discussed uh one word that we always go back to is transparency and and historically that uh affiliate marketing has been uh kind of uh a black book uh not to say uh um it's it's been difficult to to to to to to be transparent on where your traffic is coming from and all this so i think when we talk to big publishers the big media houses the big uh online platforms that are sending a lot of traffic they ask for the ability to work more closely with their partners but also to know exactly how much revenue are being generated so we see a closer collaboration between advertisers and publishers and on the other side as well we see uh the the the the need for having a closer dialogue with with the big publishing houses when you sit when you're on a third advertising so you need a platform we're talking about a lot of the partner economy where you where you work partner to partner in order to to to build the best campaigns and build the best just get the best possible revenue um and actual tracking as well to get the best possible tracking on on uh on on on both ends so that's something uh we see it's really important and something we see that that that that almost every big publishing house or media corporation is is asking for the ones that we're working with at least that that they're seeking seeking this this kind of uh yeah so the future looks bright if we get better data transparency definitely and then of course during recessions as you said the affiliate marketing is of course one of the most uh cost effective and most secure ways of uh using your marketing budget so so there's there's big interest right now for working in affiliate marketing um as we see it so so a combination of of the economic environment right now and and and being able to be more transparent on on the attribution you we have a we have a pretty good uh future uh affiliate marketing affiliate marketing has finally become popular taking 20 years but here we are so it's it's been a absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast today and sharing some of the things that you're doing at Hay Link and uh really looking forward to seeing how you help take transparency in the future and how you help publishers back to increase their margins of profit because that's really what we're here for is to make sure that everybody in the partnership economy is making a lot of profits and making their life data different decisions.
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