You're listening to the affiliate marketing podcast brought to you byfund.com, the chapter and verse of everything you need for running successful affiliate programs and partnership management. This is a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers, publishers, networks, agencies, and market providers who operate in affiliate marketing. If you want to launch, scale, and grow successful affiliate marketing programs, you're in the right place. In this podcast, you'll learn how affiliate and partner marketing is changing. Gain behind the mic access to affiliate marketing veterans. Listen and learn. Tried and tested program management tactics. Discover what's new and trending in affiliate and performance marketing. The truth is, you simply won't find this information anywhere else.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to this week's affiliate marketing podcast for yet another week of affiliate marketing insights. And this week I'm super excited because I've got the founder of Current and IO, Edwin McFarland, joining us. And Current enables brands to partner with media publishers around the world to create content that helps raise brand awareness of their products and services. And I speak to a lot of affiliate managers every single day, and a lot of them are very interested in this subject because they do want to get their content, their products out onto big media publishers. And it seems to be a bit of a difficult thing to do, especially for newer affiliate managers coming into the industry. Super excited to have you here, Edwin. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
SPEAKER_01My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02So before we get started, I always like to ask the people that I interview on this podcast who you are, where you've come from, how you got into the affiliate space, because I think it sets the scene for, you know, just explaining a little bit about your areas of expertise. So hit us up with that launch story and tell us how you got into this industry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would love to. So I started in the industry in 2008, so 15 years ago. I think with a as is the case with a lot of people, I kind of fell into the industry, which is fresh out of uni with a math's degree in my back pocket. I was looking for a job. And it was a kind of fabled recruiter, Richard Ocolo, who got me into the affiliate world and took me to AWIN. And just joined as like a basic admin support for things like new affiliates joining the network, basic first-line support, that kind of stuff. And from there, it just kind of triggered a lot of curiosity and a lot of interest in all things online marketing. Fast forward 15 years, a bit of a leap, but 10 years I spent at AWIN, a further five years as a consultant working for agencies, working for retailers, working for affiliates. So I've worn, if you like, all three potential hats. And you know, that's kind of led me to a somewhat unique understanding of how it all pieces together and the challenges that exist, and how sometimes one person's, if you like, perceived benefit is another person's huge disadvantage. And yeah, it kind of left me with a good understanding of the industry and a desire to maybe build something that was going to be helpful to a large number of people that maybe were a little bit underrepresented as I see it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And coming from that network background, you obviously got to embrace and talk to a lot of publishers too, because I know Awyn's publisher network is pretty large. So tell us a little bit about Comb and what it is. So in case anybody tuning in hasn't actually seen the PR or heard the news, give us a little bit of a breakdown of what comb.io is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. So the idea is that it's a platform for retailers to use to find and book placements with influential sites. And what I mean by influential is not a lot of followers and it's not high traffic, it's that it's highly relevant traffic. It's websites that rank for search terms like best camera or best dog bowl or something along those lines. Those kind of websites where users are referencing them or visiting them while seeking some independent advice that is not from a retailer themselves. And as a result, you really get a lot of kind of good, interesting content creators in that space. And the platform is designed to A, make it easy to find them, and B to actually book placements in a lot of their articles.
SPEAKER_02So why did you go down this route of specializing in this particular sort of publisher niche? Because, yes, you know, we all want to be on the PC Mags and the Forbes.com and you know the New York Times and everything else. But at what point do you need to be in your affiliate program before that starts to become a reality in terms of working in a performance model with these types of publishers? What made you focus on that particular niche?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think this kind of notion of the performance model is an interesting one. I think that it's a way in which a lot of people have sold the industry in the past, but it also kind of ignores the fact that really every channel is a performance-based model or performance-based industry. I think whilst there is just one way of, if you like, re remunerating potential publishers of this nature, it's it's not really about the size that you have to be or the pro or anything like that. It's actually, do you have a good product? And are you willing to work in a way that, if you like, really benefits these sites? Because these sites don't just work on a CPA. I think we can all be up front about that. But they also, you know, if they promote somebody through Amazon, let's say, they have the chance to cross-sell. They can make a lot of commission by other products being added to a basket. So their preference is always going to be linking to the a bigger shop as possible for the greatest cross-sell opportunity. But if you're a smaller site, then you have to acknowledge that you have to kind of replace that potential financial gain. And you do that by paying an upfront fee. And those upfront fees are sometimes scary because you know they can run into thousands of pounds, thousands of dollars. But when you measure it over the course of a lifetime partnership of six months, nine months, twelve months, or beyond, those costs start to merge into what would have been your CPA rate anyway. Because, you know, a thousand pounds in month one looks awful. A thousand pounds over 12 months, 24 months, it looks way more palatable. So as long as you have the right kind of framework for the deal, then yeah, you know, I would say it's still a performance basis. And I think we just need to tweak our mindset a little bit to adopt, if you like, the potential gains that these sites have from other channels. And that's what we're competing with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And did you see a gap in the market for that? Is that why you actually kind of went specifically after building relationships with these partners?
SPEAKER_01And when did you see that gap started to emerged? I saw it more from the retailer perspective, which is I felt like a lot of the programs that were launched for new programs were very heavily reliant on incentive, much more so than your typically mature program. And I also felt like the opportunities that were put in front of them from a content perspective were, you know, spend a thousand pounds and we'll write an article about you. But what they're really buying there is a little bit of a lottery ticket. No one knows if that post is going to rank or not, if it's going to get any traffic. And sure, like these sites, you know, they do a bit of work to push it on socials, but after that initial push, does it rank? Does it keep getting traffic? So the gap in the market for me was teaching people how consumers shop, and then using that same methodology to help retailers find the sites that rank. So, yeah, the gap in the market was find the good value sites, find the right price of those sites, and then the gap on the market on the other side was to give the content sites an ecosystem in which they don't have to compete with voucher code sites, cashback sites, last click specialists.
SPEAKER_02And also from an affiliate manager's perspective, it's sometimes difficult to find out who the right people are to speak to at these huge publishing houses because you know you go on LinkedIn or whatever, and you LinkedIn stalks someone, and then you contact them and you wait two weeks and then they say no, it's not me, it's somebody else. And then, you know, before you know it, two months has gone by and you still haven't been able to get an article published or, you know, a campaign created or whatever the case may be. So I think, you know, shortcuts getting business done, that's the ethos behind what I imagine you created at comb.io. But I want to get into the advice part. So you found a gap in the market, you've built a product or a marketplace or you know, platform, if we can call it that, because it is connecting people. What are some of the pieces of advice that you want to give to affiliate program managers who want to diversify and work with bigger publishers and media partners? What do they need to get right first before they even come to your platform? Because I think that's very important to talk about in terms of are you ready to actually work with a bigger publisher?
SPEAKER_01I would say the first bit is actually, you know, look at your product and be honest about it. It's is it worth the time that it takes for these sites to write about them? Does it really stack up against the competition? And if it does, then brilliant. Like that is honestly all you need. Like one of the one of the sites I work with at the moment gets less than 5,000 unique visitors, and yet we're able to place them in some really influential sites because the product is good. And I think that's at the crux of absolutely everything that matters to these sites. But in terms of what the affiliate managers can do, in terms of looking at other websites to partner with, etc., like firstly, do your homework, check that the site is actually getting traffic for keywords that are relevant to your client or to your store. Secondly, is to try and create the right ecosystem for these content partners to thrive in. And what I mean by that is having things like different deduping rules, not competing with last-click specialists, and adopting your mindset that the ROI or ROAS you will get from these channels is going to be more comparable to Facebook and let's say other paid social channels than it is to these last-click guys that are, you know, based in kind of 15, 20 to 1 ROI. And lastly, I suppose it's really kind of when you're reaching out to these sites, don't mention affiliates. It's really, it's not the same.
SPEAKER_02They don't get it. It's a different type of terminology. You know, they want to be known as a publisher, they want to be known as a media partner, even though you're paying them on performance. And we do need to get our terminology right in this industry because uh affiliate seems is still sort of um connected to grubby, you know, and it really isn't. It's just the word that we use for a referral partner, and the media companies don't really understand it, and they come from a different part of the industry. I mean, I actually had a really interesting conversation with Bower Media, actually. They were actually putting together a workshop to bring all of their CMOs from all of their publications together to actually understand affiliate and performance a little bit more because they realize that they need to be part of this ecosystem, but they don't actually know how to jump in, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I totally agree. I think the terminology is really important. And, you know, I've experienced this firsthand when I reach out to these sites. I would say back in the old days when I used to try and recruit people for affiliate programs, I'd be lucky to get one or two responses per hundred emails sent. I would say now that I just inquire about the site and how they monetize, I'd say it's more like two or three out of every ten is getting a reply. And obviously, I'm also coming from a position of, you know, there's five, six, seven, eight retailers using the comb platform. And if three or four of them are all after the same site, I'm going to them in a position of, hey, I've got some cool retailers with money in my back pocket, and I'd just like to know what's the best way to spend it on your site. And that normally then leads into a conversation of how do I book in this particular article or this particular placement.
SPEAKER_02You've just said something that's golden. And to me, just to reiterate what you've said, don't go in with the hard sale of how do I get my products on your site, go in with a tactical sale, which is how do you monetize and how can I make that work for me? So work in the reverse when you're trying to call pitch media sites that you haven't worked with before that are, you know, not just your bug standard affiliates. So I think that, sorry, I just wanted to point that out because I think that was golden.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I think I'm not going to deny the fact that a lot of them will try and push you down the CPM routes and display and all those kinds of things. And I think you I could spend another 45 minutes talking about whether or not there's value in that or not. I'll reserve it for another time. But I think, you know, the real value comes from links in editorial-based articles. And that's the only thing that I personally would ever pay for. And that's the only thing that I ever display within the comb platform.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So, one of the key things that you've learned in your career that you can share with others coming into this industry because a lot of newbies coming into the affiliate space and both on the publisher side and the program management side, they tune into this podcast and they want to hear the words of wisdom from the people that I invite in as experts. So, what are some of the key areas that you've learned in your career coming from all of those different parts of the industry that you've worked in that you can share with our listeners today? What's the three golden nuggets that you want to give them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like the key golden nugget for me is, you know, where does a website get its traffic from? Is the most important question you should always be asking. And that's key on both the retailer and the affiliate side. On the retailer side, if all of their traffic is coming from brand-related terms, the chances are they're not really that strong with their content-based approach and they're not really ranking very well for more generic terms. And what does that maybe say about their products and their level of interest in those products from their prospective users? So for me, that's almost a bit of a red flag if a retailer's traffic is almost entirely brand-led. And the same can be said from the affiliate side, which is if all of the traffic is coming from retailer plus something or other, like retailer review, retailer voucher code, retailer cash back, or whatever it might be. Like those are the sites that, if I'm honest, don't really interest me because I believe, rightly or wrongly, that most of the traffic they capture has probably already been on the retailer's site. I think the most valuable sites are the ones that bring somebody to a website for the first time. Give us an example of the type of site that you're talking about. One that is good or one that is bad?
SPEAKER_02Good. Oh, both.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I'll give an interesting example. I'll give the example of Hot UK deals. Like almost all of Hot UK deals traffic comes from people that are looking for like deal-based activity but not brand related. So they might be searching for like cheapest trainers that have just been released. Or it might be like best place to buy Prosecco for New Year. Like those search terms are gold, right? Because everyone would love to be in an article that talks about the best prosecco for new year. Not only because you know you want to sell loads of prosecco, but also because it's an amazing placement. And there's also countless websites that rank for things like best backpack or best camera or whatever. So those are the sites that for me are just gold dust. The ones that are not so valuable, I think it it kind of goes without saying when you see that 75% of all traffic that goes to voucher site is on a brand-related term. And yeah, I just it makes me a little bit uncomfortable to push those opportunities in front of a retailer because I do believe they're usually going to buy anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And also there's the sort of cannibalism of you know brand already attracting those customers to the site direct. So therein is your second golden nugget for this week's episode, which is go and have a look at the traffic sources that are going to these big media publisher sites that you want to be a part of and do your due diligence to make sure that they are actually the right partners for you at the point of your affiliate program lifecycle, whether you're starting out and you just want to get like reach across all the big sites that your brand can get a little bit more recognized, you might go and do those deals because they make business sense for you at that stage of your life cycle journey. But if you're a really big program that's already well established, that's really just looking for the kind of margin stuff that makes you net profitable, then you want to be listening to what Edwin is saying right now because otherwise you're spending your money in all the wrong places and in all the wrong um price points, and you're just not going to make that money back and it's not going to be relevant for you. So think about your strategy in terms of which partners you're working with and when. So the other thing is, you know, we're all talking about Chat GPT. So is that something that you're currently looking at with all the publishers and partners that you're joining with? Are you looking at the quality of the content and not just the ranking as well?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think Chat GPT is a really interesting thing. I think the where I've personally been using it actually is just so I run a content site about living in the 90s, just because I like to understand both sides of the coin of what's it like to both be a content creator and a website owner, and also what's it like to, you know, try and do all things affiliate. And on the content side of things, it's been fantastic. I'm spinning up articles in a third of the time, and I, you know, I've got a good set of prompts to create content, and it's great. But as good as the content is, it still requires an awful lot of work to make it useful, both to an end user and also from a website owner perspective. I still have to go and find the images, I still have to go and create the internal links to other pages, I still have to go and create the external links to other sites, and you know, all of that is designed to kind of build up, if you like, the authority of that website in the eyes of Google. So for people that already have that authority, I think it is a bit of a game changer. But at the same time, so many of these sites are still, you know, wanting to take their own pictures of the products and wanting to be sent the products and X, Y, Z. I think, you know, it's a helper, it's not a solution. And I think that's also true when it comes to menial tasks like categorizing websites or you know, yeah, trying to piece together whether or not a site is useful. I yeah, for me, it's like a really advanced kind of assistant. It's not yet something that I fear for either my job or my future or anyone else's, to be quite honest.
SPEAKER_02Okay, good. That's that that's kind of the general consensus that I've been having as well. But the other thing I want to ask you is as we move into a more complex marketplace, why should brands be investing more in content-based partnerships right now? I mean, this is obviously the reason why you've launched comb.io, but why do you think in the e-commerce space specifically, should brands be spending more with content-based partners?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. So I like I'm sure you already know the latest iteration of Google Analytics, which seems to have upset a lot of people, but I personally quite like. They have a metric called first user source, which is the referring source, or if you like, the per the website that bought somebody to a retailer's website for the first time. And it tells, if you like, e-commerce owners or store owners quite a lot. Because when I look at those metrics for retailers that I've worked with when I was agency side, what I was seeing is that there are some sites that come out of that really poorly when compared to like traditional Last Git models, and there are some sites that come out really well, obviously, like the kind of sites that we've covered so far. And so when I saw that, it was a little bit of a eureka moment, which is if I am helping retailers find people that are going to visit their website for the first time, I'm doing something that the retailer likes, and they will pay for that in a way that they are not paying for a lot of the other affiliate-based activity that goes on in our industry. Yeah, I think this metric is so important and it's probably going to replace this idea of new customers that we kind of have commission groups for and is quite prevalent in the industry. And I think new customers is too easy to misunderstand because if somebody is on my website and they've not shopped with me before, but they're already on my site, and they bounce off to any one of the numerous other sites that they might go to, and then they purchase. In the eyes of that store, they're a new customer and there's value there. But in my eyes, as the store owner, I think they were probably about to buy. Like that's not really a new customer. What I want is a new user to my site, and then I rely on my site and my product to convert that person into a paying customer. So I think this metric could be quite revolutionary, and I think a lot of the reporting that certainly I've designed from a comb perspective makes a big deal of this metric, and also the idea in the next few months is to build a way for retailers to just plug in and have a look at that metric and have a look at the different affiliates and how good, if you like, their introductory rates are.
SPEAKER_02That's quite interesting because I mean, my background is obviously in the gaming space, but I've had e-commerce background since the dawn of time, because that's kind of where affiliates started. And what I'm finding interesting is that the commission models that are being offered in e-commerce have pretty much stayed the same for the last 15 years. And this metric actually provides clever marketers with an opportunity because we've we've had attribution modeling, everybody's trying to figure out what's the best model, everybody discusses that at length at every event. But I think this metric could actually be really interesting if you could get the data to marry up to actually change the way that you commission your affiliates for different types of customers that they've Bringing you. So the ones that could have maybe bought can be at a lower rate because your brand marketing has already been spent to go and you know acquire that user in some way, shape, or form onto your site. But then this metric can actually help you bring net new customers that weren't touched in any of your other channels. That then makes attribution a little bit more interesting, I think, and probably a little bit more accurate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd say so. I think I I like to try and separate the payment models from the activity. Yeah, look, I I think we're never gonna move away from Alaska. It's been this way for 20 years, and I don't see it evolving. But what I do see is a recognition of value in a way that means you're happy to pay tenancy or extra budget on top. And sure you can be smart with it and you say the amount you earn in tenancy is gonna be linked to how many new users you bring to my site or something like that, but it's a little bit overcomplicated almost. I just think look at the data and then be comfortable with spending what you want to spend.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And knowing what it is that you want to spend, because a lot of the affiliate managers I still speak to, they don't even know what their lifetime value of a customer is, and sometimes they're overpaying and making no profit. So it really is important for you to look at the data and make sure that the platforms that you're using give you that granular data too. What's one piece of advice that you can give to those tuning in today who want to grow their content-based publisher kind of partnerships? What's the one piece of advice other than coming to comb.io?
SPEAKER_01I think it's the wise up that the only way really to engage publishers of this quality and of this magnitude is to separate them from other partner types, to let them exist in their own ecosystem with their own deduping rules, to not try and, you know, skimp on the earnings when customers return products, to run them on de dupes, which is a big part of the coin play. And also just recognize that there is really no other stream of like traffic on the internet right now that can bring as many users to a website for the first time than this type of activity. And if you want that, just be ready to pay for it because it's not cheap, it has upfront costs, but if you look at those costs in the right way, if you kind of split them amongst numerous months, which these partnerships deliver for, you know, they are evergreen, like they do deliver sales all year round. Look at it in the right frame of mind, and you will undoubtedly find success with it.
SPEAKER_02So I guess it's changed your mindset. It's not about a CPA deal, I'm gonna pay my CPA every time a customer comes in. This is evergreen content, it's gonna sit there for the next two years. You can't be looking at your payback values in the first month. It's more of a long-term game plan, and the strategy behind what that game plan is needs to be mapped out first, which is really the piece of advice that you gave.
SPEAKER_01It's the same as the SEO channel itself, right? No one pays 10 grand and then goes, Where's all my traffic? And this is the same kind of thing. You know, you pay a couple of thousand and then in 12 months' time, you'll be like, that was the best money I've ever spent.
SPEAKER_02Right. Now, listen up, people. Edwin's going to be speaking at the Elevate Summit on the 18th and 19th of July. Make sure that you tune in because, as you know, on our summits, we have live QA with experts. So if you've got questions about publishers, you want to understand how to get into those big media relationships, come to Elevate, get your ticket, and come and talk with us live about growing your affiliate program and elevating your performance. Edwin, it has been a pleasure to have you on the podcast this week. Really looking forward to seeing what comb.io does. And thank you so much for your time.
SPEAKER_01My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00This podcast is brought to you by AMP. The Affiliate Manager Performance Program is designed for ambitious affiliate program managers working at brands, agencies, or affiliate networks that are looking to grow and scale their affiliate programs and partner performances. We've already helped hundreds of affiliate program managers from a range of industries get the best out of their affiliate partnerships and build consistent sales within their affiliate programs. With just one hour per week over a 12-week period, this program is unlike any other. You'll learn proven tactics, tested strategies, and access decades of experience with industry veterans who have launched, scaled, and grown multi-million dollar affiliate programs around the world. Book your seat on our next cohorts by visiting our website, affiverst.com, and hit the training menu. From there, you can register your interest for our next cohort launch or contact our sales team to find out more. That's www.affire.com. That's a wrap for this week's affiliate marketing podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down, why not head over to Apple iTunes and give us a five-star review? Make sure to subscribe to our podcast and our YouTube channel so you never miss another insightful episode or one of our free webinars ever again. Tune in next week for more digital affiliate marketing insights, trends, tips, and content to keep your affiliate and performance marketing fresh and your partners driving consistent sales.