You're listening to the Affiliate Marketing Podcast brought to you by affivermedia.com. The chapter and verse of everything you need to know about running a successful affiliate program for your business. This is a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers, publishers, networks, agencies and ma tech providers who operate, support, or manage affiliate marketing programs around the globe. If you want to launch, scale, and grow a successful affiliate marketing program, you're in the right place. In this podcast, you'll learn how affiliate and partner marketing is constantly changing. And tune in to industry experts who are getting behind our mic to share tactical insights and practical knowledge to help your affiliate program grow. Here you'll discover what's new and trending in affiliate and performance marketing, how to run your affiliate program successfully and gain industry insights from experts and practitioners from around the globe. The truth is, you simply won't find this information anywhere else. Now here's your award-winning affiliate and performance marketing host, an industry veteran, your affiliate marketing guide and the founder of Affunts, Leanne Johnston.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to this week's affiliate marketing podcast with me, your host, Leanne Johnston, and today I'm super excited because I've got not one, but two special guests joining me behind the mic this week. I've got head of affiliate, sorry, Yam Ravoli, head of affiliate and ex-next affiliate, as well as the lovely Yanoth who's joining me as well to talk a little bit about the things that we all learned at the CPA meetup in Vietnam, where I attended as one of the guests to this fabulous affiliate event. And we thought it would be interesting to get on and welcome them both here this week to talk about affiliate marketing in Vietnam, which is a really fast-growing area and industry in the digital world. So, guys, welcome onto the podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here with me this week.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thanks for giving us.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Lianne.
SPEAKER_00It was really nice to have us today.
SPEAKER_03So let's get started by telling our lovely listeners a little bit about Xness Affiliates, because that's kind of the place to begin. What you guys each do at XNIS affiliates and why you've decided to host your CPA affiliate meet Vietnam this year.
SPEAKER_01It's good to start with uh introducing XNIS as a brand because uh that's what we're about. We're quite big in the in the trading field. I think we're like one of the big players around globally. I think we're holding around 15% of all the share trading uh trading volumes which is happening in the world in terms of forex uh trading. And we we hit a very uh remarkable and and uh you know very important milestone recently. We we passed 2 trillion uh uh USD uh uh as a whole trading volume uh uh within the month. So it's a bit it's a huge milestone for us. So it it it it uh shows the scale of the company actually and how we uh feel. We feel great and it's a very healthy product which we're offering. And being uh a healthy product core product, we we're building a very, very smart affiliate program because we want to be uh a leading company in this in the affiliate marketing field. So that's what we are doing together with Jana and the rest of the team. Uh our department is focused on on uh working with uh different types of affiliates of all scales, like individuals and corporate ones. Uh and uh we we are focused on on bringing the clients through our affiliate program and through numerous affiliate campaigns and affiliates. So the idea was we managed to have um uh and collect a very good uh affiliate database and uh the affiliates ecosystem. So we decided to go further and to invite the top performers to meet them in person to know more about Exna's way on doing things and doing business, to introduce them the the whole company and to have have fun, of course.
SPEAKER_03I have to say, I absolutely loved the event. So it was uh quite private, like you obviously invited and curated a bunch of people that you that you needed to get closer working relationships to. Now, Jana, you spent many months organizing this event. What were some of the highlights for you of meeting some of your partners in person in Vietnam?
SPEAKER_00Uh let me uh let me answer to this one. So, actually, the initial idea was to um invite our top partners because we are quite a mature program on the market, and this year we will be celebrating the fourth year, fourth year in December. And uh during the COVID time we had no opportunity to to meet in person with most of our partners, and we decided to have this event mostly for them, but then we decided that since we are going to the new market, uh let's say to the new to the new location for us in Vietnam, uh, why don't we invite the the local heroes as well and acquire them as our new partners? So we started preparing the good content, and you know that uh during our uh meetup, we provide the high quality content and we invited the high-class experts like you and Sergey and others to uh to to give uh something practical um advice is to our uh uh affiliate partners. And we combined these two main goals to uh meet with our existing partners and to acquire the new ones.
SPEAKER_03And Vietnam's a really interesting place as well. I mean, having now been there, thanks to you, I was quite surprised at how many people work in the in the digital space and how easy it is for people to transact online in that country. And I think there was a stat that you shared on the stage where I think it was something like 20% of people in Vietnam are actually already transacting in cryptocurrency, which just blew my mind. So, as a fast-growing, you know, Asian region, I think Vietnam is very rarely spoken about. Everybody talks about Japan and you know, India as being the big Asian markets, but it was very great to see you bringing partners out to this region to actually explore locally on the ground what's actually happening in that space. And the one thing that I really loved about this event is that there was a lot of attention to detail. There was a lot of attention to detail in terms of what your partners needed to learn from people working in the European space to help them to actually elevate their growth and performance. But there was also a lot of stuff that we got to learn from people that were localized in that market. And it's very rare that we see affiliate programs investing in educating their partners. A lot of affiliate programs spend money to go to events, they go and market their programs, but they very rarely invest in actually helping their partners to educate themselves in terms of growth opportunities. So I thought that was great.
SPEAKER_01That's uh that's the whole point uh about Ex and the way on how we do things here. So uh our our vision of let's say the vision of our owners of the company and what we try to transmit here is like we want to be as close to our partners as we can because the partnership model actually is what forms uh ExxonS. And we are uh heavily dependent on this model. Here I mean mostly our introducing brokers, which are working on revenue share. Actually, we have like two types of partners in Exnes, like revenue share or IB brokers, uh introducing brokers whom we pay like a percentage of the trading volume, and uh CPA partners, is which is relatively uh relatively uh new model. But again, for for a long period of time, Xnoce uh had a a majority, like uh the most valuable part of the business coming from the partners, and we and uh that's how we managed to grow in such countries like Vietnam, Thailand, because of this uh approach of uh having decentralized people acting as a introducing brokers, uh, and to get uh the like the best part of the traders because these guys they are like our representatives there, and not saying that they earn earn like a lot of money with us, of course, of course. Uh so yeah, and it's it's our it's our vision to in not only to take uh the traffic, uh the clients, whatever from from those, uh but to give them some extra value, some additional value, and that's why we're investing in them a lot. We're all we want to to be with them as close again as is possible, uh to educate together, to receive a fair feedback, which is really important for us in order to uh improve the product.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I sat in the feedback groups and I was quite surprised at how open and transparent they were. And it really struck me that you know it's beyond just commission for a service that you guys are doing in the program. And this is what I wanted to talk about today on the podcast, because I think a lot of brands still treat partners like suppliers, they treat them like traffic drivers. And you guys really took this to another level where you included people as part of your extension of your own marketing team. And actually, the feedback that came out of these open forums where I actually sat in and heard what some of the uh publishers and partners were saying that they needed were actually fed back directly into your development team because I know that you run your own um platform and you everything that you develop is is bespoke in-house for your partners. So for me, that was quite refreshing, and I thought that was a great opportunity for partners to actually collaborate.
SPEAKER_01It this is a great way on bringing the people who are completely not into this, uh they're just like uh, you know, on the different parts of the business, like uh or they develop, and it's it's it was very interesting to bring those people who are introverts sometimes, and they're not like client-facing people. And that's very interesting. Uh, it it gives additional value on on how we can uh improve because if they always like hear the feedback from us, like uh the same employees, it's a different.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. It's a big thing because a lot of affiliate managers that I speak to, they always struggle to get buy-in from the senior management team from other departments. And I think it is because there's this disconnect. And hosting an event like you guys did actually brings all parts of the business together to meet the people that you're actually serving, because ultimately your affiliates are also your clients. You know, whilst you're serving your clients to give them a great user experience, your affiliates are also your customers. And service, I think, is something that's underrated in the affiliate industry. You know, we still we think that just because we pay partners a commission, that they need to be loyal to us. And actually, it goes beyond that. It's about actually creating partnerships that elevate the service levels that you can give to your affiliates. And that's through your technology, it's through your account management, and it's also through things like this, where you create bespoke events that help to educate your partners. Now, I want to talk a little bit about like some of the stats and the things that you shared at this event, just so our listeners can learn from some of the information that was shared up on stage. In terms of e-commerce and forex volumes and how the industry is growing and developing year on year in Vietnam, can you share some of the kind of numbers and things that you know revealed to the partners at this event that really will start to help them to grow their businesses and get deeper into that marketplace? Maybe some of the global economics and growth rates that are out there in Vietnam right now.
SPEAKER_00Yes, absolutely. Uh actually, we were also surprised how the market became mature during these past years. And this is a really active time on the Asian market now. And basically, in terms of infrastructure, the global level of the there is a prediction, let's say, that the affiliate market will grow almost on 16 billion uh dollars uh by the end of the year. And of course, the biggest part of this uh market will belongs to the North American market. But on the second place, uh we have an APEC market uh with all Asian countries. Uh so it's around 24% with all this shared market. Yes. So um it's a huge potential, and definitely uh it will continue to grow during the next few years.
SPEAKER_01I just remember the time when I just started working in the uh affiliate marketing industry, and there was a like a presentation when I shared the numbers, and it was like uh 9 billion or something uh like five years ago uh or or something like that, or 10 or 10 billion and now it's like doubled. Uh so meaning that the the industry grows uh like uh very very consistently and um consistently, and uh that's a a good way uh for for businesses like ours to scale there and to yes, and if we will look at the vertical breakdown, for example, the finance vertical is one of the top.
SPEAKER_00I think it's one of the most uh three popular right now. And it because, first of all, the investments and trading become very, very uh popular and available literally just in one touch of using the smartphone. And the second, because the general popularity of invest investments are uh in a in huge interest uh in the crypto and forex uh based offers are very popular right now. So I would say that nowadays the financial vertical, including crypto and forex, the most attractive uh categories uh for affiliate marketers in Asian market as well, because the publisher can get up to 35-40 percent commission. And experienced uh uh publishers are actually switching right now uh to finance verticals from e-commerce and other categories and get to get more profit, let's say. And um even if so the conversion rates are not so high at the beginning, in the long-term perspective, uh it's very uh worth you know to uh invest in this vertical.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just because uh the the the the value for the client is uh much higher than we get. So it's not like uh a purchase uh which is fixed uh when let's say you buy something from a supermarket for uh ten dollars. Uh here we have a uh a big lifetime value. Uh next we even uh try to extend this lifetime value uh up to two years, which is uh absolute maximum in this industry, but it's huge. Uh because in this time frame, you can you you can get like 10, 20 times uh bigger. And for affiliates, uh we are ready to share this.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, and we see this trend also because the each year we have more and more uh big players on the market. For example, in the past few years we had only one uh monopoly, CTS, uh, on Vietnamese market, but now we have a huge and strong networks and platforms like Metawork, Access Trade, and many more. So the popularity of the social media and influence marketing gives them the ability to grow very fast and take their market share and provide the good services uh to any kind of affiliate marketers, the newbies and and uh very mature ones.
SPEAKER_03So that that was one thing that I did notice out there is that there are a lot of networks that are actually educating the publishers right now because the market isn't as mature as what it is here in Europe, where publishers are, you know, like individuals, they're small, medium businesses. So in Vietnam at the moment, there's still very much the networks are leading the way because they're actually bringing smaller publishers into their network and then kind of monetizing the brands out. So it's kind of like how Europe was maybe five, seven years ago, where the marketplace is maturing, the networks are building infrastructure, they're recruiting new publishers in, they're teaching people how to become publishers. But I think you hit the nail on the head. I think the advancement of social media and the easy accessibility, because literally I was on the back of a motorbike, I did a city tour. I mean, you've got to do that when you're when you're when you're in another city. And the guy that was taking me on on you know the back of his moped to to do the tour, he was uh uh strangely enough, also on his mobile phone, um, booking his next clients. So you know, like everything is transactional there on a on a smartphone, and and smartphone penetration, I mean, we stopped at coffee shops and things along the way, and everybody had a smartphone out there. So it's almost like we're seeing an exponential growth rate in Vietnam because of the infrastructure being so good. Everybody's on a mobile phone, because fiat and uh cryptocurrency is easily accessible to them. There's a very high education level in in Vietnam as well. So a lot of graduates coming out of university are starting publisher businesses and then going into networks and and monetizing through multiple brands as well. So it's quite an exciting time to kind of be looking at the APAC region and all the different countries that are in there because the growth rate is happening and it's just about understanding the localization. And I think, you know, we at your event, I can't remember the numbers, um, but the one of the um account managers from Kakok, which is the local search engine, they were talking about millions and millions and millions of searches. Um, and this isn't Google, this is like the local search engine in Vietnam. And to me, that just sparked just how fast online is growing out there.
SPEAKER_01You're completely right because you know it's only the Kakok uh example, which is like a Google in Vietnam right now. But uh it's like a major major brand which everybody uses. But on the on the lower layers, uh we see it in different countries like India or whatever, that there is such a big and huge local providers and local, I don't know, uh, payment solutions or uh search engines or even um Play Stores or uh app stores which are local and like millions of people are using them right now. So for be being closer to these local realities will help your affiliate program to scale well if you will look on some specific local uh features they have. Because you you you never know before you start speaking with someone local there. And now we we see once we like penetrated this market a bit, we we're just exploring this world of alternative uh traffic sources and uh alternative uh touch points uh where we can get the users actually. Because it just like sounds like a joke, but uh recently I found uh I spoke with some guy from um Asian market, and he actually said me that uh like in India they have some uh local uh play stores, uh app stores, uh for for the mobiles uh which are like buttons, uh have buttons on uh like mobile phones, like uh last like first generation of mobile phones, and the people used to trade there, and like it's uh 100 million people using this on daily. So, meaning that uh you are not going to iOS anymore, you can just target this audience with a special app for the button uh you know, mobile phones, and you will get all the audience. There is no competition, or like a very, very small competition.
SPEAKER_03So it's not a big tip that you've just given that.
SPEAKER_01You know, yeah. So you should be smart enough to to have uh to to to try to release such a trading product, which will be available for button uh mobiles, but it's it's there, so you just need to pick up these uh opportunities.
SPEAKER_03It's important to get affiliate teams more localized because often you know one affiliate manager is managing, you know, I don't know, 20 geos in a program, and it becomes almost impossible to penetrate really deep unless you've got bigger teams. So do you think it's important that businesses resource their affiliate teams properly? Because I know you guys have got quite a big affiliate team, um, and you obviously manage global markets, but I'm still finding a lot of programs they'll have like one or two account managers and then they're leveraging against an affiliate network to actually help try and bring in publisher recruitment. Obviously, going local is is a very important part of your strategy to actually go and find those you know traffic suppliers that are doing, you know, next gen or pr uh first gen mobile apps and things that you've that you've just you know locations shared with with our listeners now. So do you think it's important that affiliate programs are properly resourced?
SPEAKER_01Uh if you ask me actually, I would say that um it's of course it's important to have somebody on the ground local locally, uh, but for me it's more important to have a proper collaboration between the teams inside the department, uh the company, whatever. Because it's really hard to manage all the aspects of the business development under one uh you know management um line or something. So it's very important to collaborate because uh like like in Excellence, we have uh commercial teams uh in in different countries, but they are not a part of the affiliate zone, they're not the part of the marketing, whatever department. They are just a local commercial team who knows uh the local specifics, they know they know some big players in there, and they try to develop the business. But we're in a close we try to be in a close collaboration with them in order to to align, in order to support each other, because they couldn't be like a good let's just uh appreciating us, but They are not so s such a good guys in affiliate marketing and they know that that they involve us to to be there, to maybe I don't do align at some point of time and to collaborate. So it's much more important for me to collaborate, to use everyone's strength.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, absolutely, I totally agree. What what about the commercial models in terms of like how affiliates perform in Asia versus how they perform in Europe?
SPEAKER_01Look, um first of all, uh for me it's hard to say in terms of this product, in terms of access, because we're not operating in Europe. Uh however uh there are some uh uh differences between countries. And uh you're absolutely right saying that the maturity is another uh bottleneck for uh uh can be another bottleneck for for the affiliate business if you wrongly chose some some some location, some some country or geo, and you cannot operate well there if you're not enough customized to this market. But uh for us it's very different. Uh uh but at the same time we have the the same product, uh the same IB product, the same CPA product, but we always try to be closer to the partners to see what they need actually, as uh let's say in Latin America compared to Asia, like Thailand or Vietnam. It's a bit different, but uh it it it's just a a big a big way, a big path. Uh you you need just to speak uh with with affiliates more, you need to to hear the right signals from them, the feedbacks and everything. And sometimes you can be uh you can customize the product, but uh the approach can be quite quite the same in general, in general terms, I would say. I don't know, maybe Janet has some some more specifics because uh she used to work with so many affiliates in different parts of the world, so maybe uh uh she can give some um other uh perspectives.
SPEAKER_00Well, um yes, talking about the commercial models, I would say that the revenue share is still most more popular on the Asian market because maybe it's more clear for them, it's more used to them. But as for the CBA, it's uh become more and more popular because the commission is higher and uh they want to get uh faster and more profit, you know.
SPEAKER_01So um actually the the Asian people they learn very fast, they are uh very techy guys, so they can drive uh lots lots of uh volumes, uh traffic volumes, even like take China. Uh it's like it's fantastic what they're doing. Um attribution models, they can uh drive traffic quicker, better.
SPEAKER_00Actually, uh during our CPA meetup, we also had a very nice and interesting conversation and discussion panel about the specific of the Vietnamese market. And uh we were discussing uh the differences also between the north and south uh Vietnam because it's uh uh very uh different. The audience is very different. And uh, for example, um for the north region, the more politically, economically mature, and northerners are the uh they're more concerned about the status and wealth. And the South people, for example, consider themselves uh the more dynamic and tolerant and easy-to-go people, let's say. And they tend to follow the influencers and bloggers, and they're more liberal for for their money, let's say. And uh this could be a very uh good um taking into the consideration while you're doing the new business in Vietnam, for example, you need to target the relevant audience and speak with them in the their own language. And of course, we were discussing that uh one of the main points here uh to speak in Vietnamese language with them. So all your ads and promotional material should be localized for sure.
SPEAKER_01It's a very important part uh y Jan mentioned because uh everything starting from the colors of your creatives, uh ending up with the right wording matters for them because Asian people are more specified on um individual uh signals and uh they they feel so uh they're very sensitive in the way in this way. So it's it's really it's essential to to to be to have someone from the team local who can review the funnel, the promotion materials, whatever, and give you right uh uh feedback about that, about the translation quality or your you chose the wrong colors at all, it's not the right time to go with these creatives because they have the like a special local holiday anything. So it's many things uh actually.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and you know another interesting thing that we found out uh that the Asian people truly believe in luck and they adore the any kind of raffles, giveaways. So if you want to have a successful, yeah, so if you want to have successful business um and present your brand effectively, so use this lucky draw raffles or any kinds of this stuff. Uh and I remember when we last time we were in Vietnam in February, I guess in some kind of uh expo. Uh as soon as our fortune wheel was appeared uh in our booth, there is uh uh was a huge queue in front of our booth, and uh even organizers were looking forward to having some some kind of merch or any gifts with the exmos logo, so it was really funny.
SPEAKER_01Never underestimate the uh lucky drills. It really no matter what your compliance is talking about, just bring it to some Asian countries and we'll be like a success. And you will uh you will get the attention.
SPEAKER_03Well, one thing I can say is that I I do love the XS merch because it's really good, nice quality t-shirts. So if you do get to an event and you see anybody from the XDS team, then tell them that you'd you'd like a black t-shirt because they're really, really nice, what my husband says. All right, guys. So listen, it has been fantastic having you on the podcast this week, um, where we've spoken a little bit more in depth about taking your program perhaps to an Asian country like Vietnam and some of the key things that you need to know before you step into that space. What's one of the biggest takeaways that you had from hosting the CPA meetup in Vietnam this year? What's the one big thing that you're gonna take away from the Asian marketplace and and really being close with some of your partners, both old, you know, existing and new, that you can share here on this podcast for everybody else that might be looking at the Vietnamese market?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so we can start uh with uh some points like target the relevant audience and become closer to the audience through some correct ad tools, such as influence and social marketing. Um to make the of course localization for all prom materials and speak uh to speak and deliver the proposition to the relevant audience and to build transparent trust for uh relationships with your new business partners because it's very important. Maybe Sergei can add something as well.
SPEAKER_01My point, number one point, is just uh communication, just communicate more with people. If you can do face-to-face, do face-to-face rather than having like 100 online meetings. It really works. It works, it's like a maybe c like classical approach or something. And uh I I I don't want to be the guy who who's just blaming the online communication, all this stuff, uh especially when we had a COVID or something. No, it's it's good, it works well, but nothing will replace you uh real life communication, especially if you're operating in Asian market. They need it so much, and uh that's how they can trust you. When they hold your hand, when you speak to them, they feel the the emotions, they and they can give it trust. So that's a very important thing.
SPEAKER_03So get yourself out to more Asian events if you want to grow your affiliate program in the Asian market and go and meet some of your partners in person to start those human-to-human relationships and to build that trust, which is what everything in the affiliate industry is ultimately based on. Guys, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast this week, sharing your insights on Vietnam. Um, I thoroughly enjoyed being there at the CPA meetup, and I can't wait to go again next year. It was a really, really interesting event. If anybody wants to find out more about the XMES affiliate program, we'll put some links into the um transcribe here. But it has been a pleasure having you both on this podcast this week, and thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having us. Yes, and uh I I want to wish your podcast and the whole service which provides that is a very good thing. And I I wish you all the best. Develop and uh be like uh famous and popular and uh insightful media.
SPEAKER_02If you're looking to launch an affiliate program but aren't 100% sure where or how to begin. Or you've launched your affiliate program but something isn't working and you're struggling to scale, we can help. Book a free 15-minute strategy call with our Africa agency team to find out how we can help you get to where you want to be. We offer a range of affiliate program management services, from strategy and consulting to technical setups and complex affiliate program migrations. Our award-winning agency team handles everything from affiliate strategy to affiliate offer recruitment and the deep dive affiliate program audit. We help you make affiliate marketing simple. Don't waste time struggling to get the results you need and deserve. Visit activevestmedia.com and click on the agency button to book a call now. That'll wrap up for this week's affiliate marketing podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down, why not head over to Apple ITPS. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast and our YouTube channel to be never done to Apple Episode or live 3. And content to digital affiliate and affiliate marketing titles.