You're listening to the Affiliate Marketing Podcast brought to you by affiversemedia.com. The chapter and verse of everything you need to know about running a successful affiliate program for your business. This is a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers, publishers, networks, agencies, and ma tech providers who operate, support, or manage affiliate marketing programs around the globe. If you want to launch, scale, and grow a successful affiliate marketing program, you're in the right place. In this podcast, you'll learn how affiliate and partner marketing is constantly changing, and tune in to industry experts who are getting behind our mic to share tactical insights and practical knowledge to help your affiliate program grow. Here you'll discover what's new and trending in affiliate and performance marketing, how to run your affiliate program successfully, and gain industry insights from experts and practitioners from around the globe. The truth is, you simply won't find this information anywhere else. Now here's your award-winning affiliate and performance marketing host, an industry veteran, your affiliate marketing guide and the founder of Affiverse, Leanne Johnston.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to this week's affiliate marketing podcast with me, your host Leanne Johnston. And today I'm super excited because I'm bringing back behind the mic Dean Sedden, the founder of Maverick, who I've been working really closely with and who I think is pretty much an OG legend in terms of creating content. And today he's going to come and share with us a little bit of his story and how you can leverage yourself as a brand ambassador for your affiliate program, but also how you can use TikTok channels to your advantage. So, Dean, welcome back onto the podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here.
SPEAKER_00I can't believe he brought me back actually, to be honest with you. I'm glad I did. I'm so unscripted. People usually say um uh thank you, but that was enough.
SPEAKER_02But I think that's the best part of it is the fact that you just talk on the fly. There's no kind of script behind it, and that's pretty much how you do your content too. So before we get started, for those of you that are listening in, you know, shout outs to the guys over in America. We've got people joining us from Boston, New York, Miami. I've literally just been to Las Vegas and we seem to be getting a lot of listeners there. And then everybody here over in Europe from countries like Lithuania and Sweden and Finland and all these countries where English isn't the first language, but they're tuning in to listen to us. So thanks so much for being here. Before we get started, I want you, Dean, to tell us a little bit of your story about how you started Maverick and what made you go all in on LinkedIn to start with.
SPEAKER_00Oh, the very beginning of Maverick was actually the early days of it, before it was Maverick, as we know, it was 2012. And I was actually asked to do an event, promote an event on Facebook, and they had no money. So I had to find an organic strategy of selling tickets on Facebook. And it's surprising what you can do when certain doors are shut and you're forced to kind of make something work. So we had the highlight was the key person who was at this event at Wembley was Boris Johnson.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_00And not when he was like, you know, he was the mayor of London, he was just a politician. It wasn't like, you know, former prime minister or anything. So all I had was Boris Johnson at this event in Wembley Stadium, and I needed to get sell 600 grand's worth of tickets in seven weeks. And there was zero budget. And I got paid commission on every ticket. So you could say I was an affiliate in one sense, right? So so basically I sold 38,641 tickets in six weeks, all from organic Facebook back in 2012 when Facebook was half decent. So that's where I started. Then I got hired to help another company with their social media. Again, very little budgets, very little knowledge, you know, not big infrastructure behind them. And we we were doing two and a half million a month of donations. It was a non-profit from social media with very little. And then I realized like Facebook was getting a bit tricky, it was getting, you know, it was going through that kind of it's done its thing. And I was like, let's go for LinkedIn. And I basically hooked line and synchred into LinkedIn, dropped everything else, just built my whole business off of LinkedIn. Now I'm adding the other stuff. But the reason it's called Maverick is because Dean just decides we'll do something and this is what we're gonna do. And it's very kind of non-conformist.
SPEAKER_02I love that. I've known you now for almost three years. We met, way back in an event in London. And it's that time has gone by very quickly, and I've seen the growth of your business. So I know that what you do actually works because I've seen the numbers, I've gone to some of your events. So let's share some top tips because that's why you're here, is to actually give us the lowdown and to give our listeners an opportunity to optimize themselves on LinkedIn right now. And I'm I'm actually noticing a lot more people posting on LinkedIn in terms of thought leadership, commentary, you know, all of that kind of stuff. So is that still very much the done thing? Or is LinkedIn actually turning a little bit like Facebook now and it's just getting spammed with a lot of content? And how do you shut through the noise?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you've you've asked a lot of questions there. I know. The first thing is globally, LinkedIn's content, there's still only two and a half percent of users producing all the content. So it's tiny the amount of content. What has happened is compared to like TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, is LinkedIn's algorithm's very, very simple. So it's very unsophisticated in the sense of it's easy to game, right? Just it is easy to game. So what you've got at the moment is some people who are playing to it and so you're seeing a lot of Instagram-y selfie stuff because uh the algorithm is just firing on it. So some people are using that and monetizing it and making good money out of, you know, putting up selfies and and putting links in them. A lot of people are monetizing it because or making it work because they're using TikTok style videos, which are very easy, you know, 60-second reels. We do them. They work really well. But there is a lot of crap on LinkedIn like every other channel, but there's I think we disproportionately see the crap. Okay. Particularly if you're active. If you're really active, you tend to see more of it. So but if you're like the average user, you would never know that you know you've had some person telling you they've stumped their toe, or somebody telling you about uh sad story or all of that stuff, you wouldn't see it.
SPEAKER_02So what is the best form of content to use on LinkedIn right now? Is it still thought leadership, educational, like videos, or or or does it really depend on who your audience is and and and what your reach is?
SPEAKER_00You can do text-only content and you will actually make it work. It's just slow. So if you decide I'm just gonna write text only, you have to suck up the fact that the medium isn't necessarily the best for quick growth, but actually you can build a solid audience going text only. The easiest is video. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And that's just to your phone, like you talking to your phone, as simple as that.
SPEAKER_00As if you're doing a TikTok or a YouTube reel, 30 to 90 seconds tops, that's the quickest way to grow.
SPEAKER_02Now, not everybody knows how to use video, and not everybody feels comfortable using video. So, what kind of tips can you give people? Because if you're starting out as an affiliate manager and you've got little budget, and let's face it, everybody's budgets are strapped right now, and you want to build your affiliate program presence, it starts with you as the ambassador of your program so that affiliates get to know who you are as an affiliate manager, and then they get to find out more about your program. So, what are some of the simplest videos that affiliate managers can start out and maybe break the ice with to pop their cherry and get into the habit of creating content that's that drives their medium?
SPEAKER_00Let me just caveat that, but even the big brands are aware that to actually keep up with social media, they can't afford big budgets either. I was talking to the head of social media for Uber. So you think about they've got tons and tons of money for budgets, right? They are doing more phone content now than they are doing heavy big productions, particularly for social media. So they're doing a lot on CapCut on their phone. So quick app, CapCut, it's heavily promoted on TikTok. It's the easiest way to shoot videos. In terms of filming videos, uh, I don't like filming videos. I'm pretty good in a live situation, but pre-record I'm horrific. So the way I do it is that it will always be better if you're talking to camera. You can do kind of faceless videos, but they don't work so well.
SPEAKER_02What about AI videos? Because that's something that I discovered this week. I mean, everybody's talking about AI. What are your thoughts on that? It's not authentic, right? It's it's fine for like a demo video if you've got a SAS product or you want to uh you know teach something, but I think people still want to see people.
SPEAKER_00I think that's my take. You know, I use AI every day, but a lot of what we're seeing right now is the same wave that we saw with NFTs, right? With AI, it's like NFTs, you're gonna make loads of money and Eric's gonna change the world and it or well, it kind of will, but not in the way that the hype is saying. So I'm I'm not as sold on AI videos for humans. I'm sold on them as explainers and things like that. I think that'd be pretty cool. But I think it's just a novelty, it's like a trend that we're seeing of AI. We do your own AI. What's really cool, what's really cool is the AI voice. If you think about us doing a podcast right now, you can literally go, I've wrote an article, I can get my own AI voice and basically AI my own podcasts. That I could see working.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, that's quite good. And and it's quite easy to probably edit with some of the AI tools that are available. I think for me, I'd still want the affiliate manager to be authentic, to actually be telling me stuff that they want to share. And then if I met somebody at an event, which our industry is very like big on, like every second month there's an event where you go meet somebody. If that didn't match what I was hearing, it would be a bit of a disconnect for me personally. But I think you kind of have to work with what you're given. And the main thing is to still step up from behind the screen and become an ambassador for your affiliate program. And I wanted to talk about that because I know you're hot on personal branding. I mean, your personal brand is just phenomenal on LinkedIn and you've spent years building it. But how did that journey begin? And and what where's the first step? Because everybody wants to become known, everybody wants to become seen. But what is that first step and is it a quick journey? Can you become an overnight influencer or brand ambassador for your program and have all the affiliates contacting you? Is that even possible?
SPEAKER_00Yes and no. So on LinkedIn, unlike say Instagram and TikTok, LinkedIn and Instagram is 100% an attraction model. Yeah. You have to make the content attract the crowd and convert the crowd. LinkedIn's a bit different. So I'll give you an example. We did a video with a client on their phone, and he's not in the video that much, but he's comparing two different things in the video. And he got 876,000 views on the video and 45 inbound messages talking about multi-million deals. The video itself was simple to make. The strategy behind the video was hard. Because you're like, how do we do something that people will catch on with, that will find interesting and engaging, that will have broad appeal but will resonate with very specific people.
SPEAKER_02That is the problem on LinkedIn, is unless you've got very specific job titles or very specific, and let's face it, affiliates don't have job titles. They're entrepreneurs, they're founders, they they could be everything, but every single affiliate I know is on LinkedIn. So it is the one place that I know LinkedIn and Twitter, well, X actually, let's we're gonna talk about that next. But that's kind of where affiliates are hanging out, where publishers are hanging out because it's a content-based platform. I guess the question is what content do you create as an affiliate program manager to attract the right affiliates to you? What's the process that you start with? Because you can't just use job titles, it's it's almost impossible to do.
SPEAKER_00Well, LinkedIn's the more grown-up social network. That's that's the if you look at all the other ones, it's a little bit scammy in the other places. This is the grown-up network. So when you're trying to create content to attract like particular people, what do they want to see? They want to see how the platform works, what the rewards are, but also whether they can trust you. Yeah. My industry, social media marketing is sketchy, affiliate marketing has its sketchiness as well, right? So the showing up and showing that you actually can do what you say you can do is just the core part of it. And then talking about how those bit their business, one of the really strange things is you can attract a lot of affiliates by talking about how they can improve their affiliate business. It's like a magnet, basically. What are the affiliates interested in? What are they interested in for their own business that will encourage them to hang around you? And that's what the way you've got to think about it.
SPEAKER_02So I just want to pause there because I want to make it very clear. Getting onto LinkedIn and being a brand ambassador for your program is not talking about your program and what you're selling in your program. It's actually talking about what affiliates need and want and could benefit from. So you need to flip it on its head and you need to not say, This is my program, this is my commission offer that I'm giving you this month, this is what we do. We've got the best customer service, we offer the best rewards. That doesn't attract the affiliates to you. What attracts them to you is how can I actually help you grow your affiliate business? And how do you do that working with us, whoever us is? So, really important point that Dean's brought up there is not to talk about the sales talk, but to talk about the things that attract people to you first. And that's really top of funnel awareness, brand awareness stuff.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, I think I always say to people that content is selfish. And you need to decide who's being selfish with the content. If you're being selfish, then it's all about you and nobody will pay attention. If you're being, if you're you want your audience to be selfish, you will get them all over you. Okay.
SPEAKER_02So let me ask you this. What's one of the best campaigns that you've run on LinkedIn lately? Apart from the one that you've just shared where the guy had two videos. But uh let's talk about content because a lot of affiliate managers aren't going to go straight to video. They're gonna start with creating you know authentic regular content week after week or day after day. What are some of the best ways to actually use long form content right now on LinkedIn to sort of capture leads?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so long form content. So there's there's three things that we're seeing working right now really, really well. Actually, four. First one is audio events. Audio events on LinkedIn profiles are working fantastically well. If their presentation is put together in a particular way, we did one last night, 573 that attendees, the person had been on LinkedIn two months. 573 people on the audio event. About half of them showed up. They had 16 inbound messages wanting to talk straight after. That's about how you the event and how you structure the event and the focus. LinkedIn live events are doing pretty well as well. They've been doing pretty well for a long time now. You have to be a bit more pushy in the way you do it. By pushy, I mean 20% sell, 80% value, um, not QVC. Yeah, 80% sell and 20% value. That doesn't work. So there's there's live events, audio events, LinkedIn newsletters, massive for growth. You can actually push a lot more, you can be a little quite a bit more pushy in those now. I did one and generated five, six calls off the first published this morning. So I've started publishing more because long form content, you know how this works. Typically, if somebody consumes a thousand-word thing, they're kind of invested. So more like that. And then the weird one, which actually is is we're seeing this happen on Instagram as well, is more content is now being shared in messages on Instagram than actually in the feed. So more people are using Instagram to share content in messages than posting on the grid. And on LinkedIn, we've seen a rise in people sharing content and striking up conversations by sending it to people in messages.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Okay, so not actually posting on their feed, but actually just direct messaging them. But don't isn't that a little bit spammy though? Because I've always been taught on social don't just kind of reach out to somebody because they're immediately gonna go hit delete because it's it's spam. So how do you get around that?
SPEAKER_00I've just done this recently with a client where they've shared a video about the changes in automation in manufacturing sites, right? So, not the most exciting of things. They've put a video together and sent it and said, thought this might be interesting. It's packed with value, so it's not like you know, a sales pitch. And afterwards, people are messaging him back saying, that's really interesting. I'd love to chat to you about that. And that's working really well.
SPEAKER_02So the give, give, give before you ask, that still works fine if you're using Messenger, which is quite interesting.
SPEAKER_00I was talking to some people at a conference of CROs about a month ago. And first thing that came out was outreach, the average now for any kind of this is average of anything. So if you sell an enterprise or 50 quid things, the average is that you need now to 15 sales touch points to close a deal.
SPEAKER_02Sounds a bit like affiliate marketing. You need 15 touch points before a customer buys anything. So it's more or less the same. So you need to be invested in the long term, really, and creating the content that adds value, makes you look authentic, but also keeps coming because it's 15 times that they see you before they even engage.
SPEAKER_00And I'm sure this is not the case for your industry, but I come across this a lot, is that the content and outreach kind of ends up in two camps, right? You have the extreme of spam. Yes, which everybody hates. And then you have the extreme of content, which is like, I'll just post things, go nuts on it, and it'll all come to me.
SPEAKER_02Do you think that's because of Chat GPT? Like everybody's just getting lazy now, they're not actually getting authentic.
SPEAKER_00I think ChatGPT's had a part to play in it, but I think we've all social media has brought these two compartment, like two extremes of content, do everything, no message, no spam, and then just just throw it all at the wall, hammer as many people, and you'll pick up something. I think the actual answer, just to be vanilla, is both, but in the middle of the road. So you're not spamming people, but you are talking to people, and you're not trying to become the next Gary V either.
SPEAKER_02All right. So listen, we've got to talk about X slash X Twitter, the bluebird, what's going on there? Because a lot of people, I know a lot of affiliates, certainly in the iGaming industry, they all have Twitter accounts. So if you can't get hold of them on Skype or email or Instagram or whatever, you are bound to be able to get hold of them on Twitter through Messenger. So what is your thoughts about where X is moving to and how do we leverage this channel, or should we just forget about it and focus more on LinkedIn? Like, what's your thoughts?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I hate predicting the future, but I'm gonna have a go. Yeah. Well, that's why you're here. Right. He this guy is not stupid, right? He knew exactly what he was doing when he took over Twitter. Even though he fired 75% of his workforce, it's still there. It's interesting that everybody kicked off about the verified, and then oh, Meta's got one too. So, you know, it's like he's not stupid about this. And I've talked about this. I think Elon Musk's trying to be first at social media 2.0 in that what they want is they are now going for they want us to be subscribers to them. There's a great video about the term enchitification. Right? Okay, come tell us. So enchitification is at first a social media platform basically serves the audience. We all connect with everybody, everybody remembers the golden days of Facebook and Instagram and all that stuff. Then phase two of enchitification is they serve the advertisers.
SPEAKER_02The people will have the monies.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So, in other words, the advertisers become the priority, but in the Last two years we've seen how advertisers can kind of tell social media platforms what to do. So now we're seeing phase three, where it's about the social media companies making money for themselves. And Elon Musk has said for a long time he wants to do the WeChat model, and WeChat makes his money off subscriptions, financial commissions, transaction fees, and that's where they're going.
SPEAKER_02How do you think that's going to impact the rest of the social media influencer economy, though? Because that whole ecosystem is moving very quickly into the affiliate space and being managed coherently together. So platforms like Impact.com have already released a beta version of influencer management within the affiliate management platform, because influencers, content creators, they need different things to sort of socially based or content-based affiliates who are creating content and websites and mobile apps and all the other types of email marketing. And what they're trying to do is bring that whole partnership economy together so that everybody can work on a performance-based. But if you're saying we're going to be the owners of our own data, we're going to be the owners of our own channel, we're going to be the owners of the eyeballs that we collect through whatever these social channels are that we manage, i.e. social 2.0, how do you think that's going to impact the rest of the economy that's currently trying to kind of bring influencers and social media content creators in?
SPEAKER_00You're already seeing a part whereby it's going to be pay-to-play. Yeah. So there's going to be an element of pay-to-play with influencers and content creators. There's going to be the kind of their own subscriptions and stuff like that. But I think what they're trying to do is actually consolidate their audience. In some senses, I think what Elon Musk's doing is once he starts to integrate some of the financial products and some of that stuff, and you start to live your life through X, it becomes harder and harder to leave.
SPEAKER_02That is true. And I think what we're going to find is brands are going to then start to subdivide their budgets. They're going to have a budget for traditional affiliates. They're going to have a budget for non-traditional affiliates, of which influencers might fit in part of that. And we're seeing some of the big brands do this as well. I think I saw a case study on Reef. They actually culled their entire ambassador community and worked with only, I think, 12 or 20, you know, content creators that had exactly the right target audience that they were looking for. So I think we're going to have to get more considered about the content that we push out and the followers that we bring in. And I think that brands are probably going to spend a little bit more on nurturing micro and nano influencers across all of these different platforms because they're going to be the data owners, not the social media platform, if it is going to be pay-to-play and you're going to have to start building subscriptions and communities around your content. So I think it's going to be really messy to start with, but I think it you're going to have to be strategic. You're not going to be able to be everywhere.
SPEAKER_00What I think's interesting as well is how the social platforms are diverging. If you look at Twitter, it's like it's massive early adopters. Twitter is just like early adopters everywhere. Instagram, creative. Yeah? You've got a lot of creative. LinkedIn's the kind of business, business, business, business. And then you've got Facebook, which is actually the old people's place.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, nobody really, I mean, I don't even use Facebook anymore. So if anybody's contacted me on Facebook, please don't switch over to LinkedIn because uh you'll never get an answer from me. I'm actually thinking about taking my Facebook page down because it's just remnant traffic that's sitting there from years gone by.
SPEAKER_00I think Twitter or X is in the space where it's not guaranteed, but they could be the first social media ecosystem. And if they pull that off, that could be quite powerful because their audience, if Twitter's gonna do something, they have that massive early adopter tech savvy audience that other channels don't have in as big quantities.
SPEAKER_02So I'm gonna be getting off this podcast right now and nurturing my my ex account because it's been left to die a horrible death. But it honestly does sound like it's something that we need to kind of re-engage with, and especially in the affiliate industry, because early adopters are always affiliates. They are at the forefront of wherever traffic is gonna be. So if there's an opportunity to leverage and grow traffic through Twitter, they will be there already. And it might be a good idea to actually look into that if you're listening to this. Do we still need to be everywhere all at once all the time?
SPEAKER_00There's a film called that.
SPEAKER_02I know.
SPEAKER_00Or is it everything everywhere all at once? All at once. Yeah. Um no. No, basically. It's very difficult to do all the channels well. I've just made the decision on some of our channels that we're just gonna go, they're gonna be filled with stuff just in case the world changes, we're not abandoning them, but we're just automating posting on them just to keep them occupied. So Facebook page automated. And we've actually automated some of our brand, so Maverick's own social channels, and we're focused on mine, primarily because if people buy into Dean, they buy into Maverick.
SPEAKER_02That's what I really wanted you to quantify because a lot of affiliate managers are like, oh, well, we'll use our corporate page. But isn't there a difference between the corporate page on LinkedIn and the personal page on LinkedIn? And don't they work differently as well? And that's why I keep preaching affiliate managers need to become brand ambassadors for their programs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh company pages are a joke uh on every channel, but uh LinkedIn doesn't want you to really benefit from the company page without paying. So you can do a lot and you can build like meme accounts and stuff like that and do well. But when it comes to trying to make them useful, financially useful and scale, you have to pay. Profile's totally different because LinkedIn needs attention, LinkedIn needs content. So they will happily let you do all sorts of stuff with your profile, but your page if if you're an affiliate manager thinking about your company page and how do you recruit more affiliates from your company page, be prepared to spend a lot of money. In terms of boosting posts or boosting posts, ads, all that kind of stuff. If you want to actually recruit affiliates and that's your primary objective on LinkedIn, your personal brand is the biggest asset. And also, if you're a an affiliate manager and you're looking for your next career move to another brand or another platform or what have you, the recruiters will vet you, look at your profile and go, This person really bought into what they were doing, really invested in. It's a massive tick. And interestingly, one social media posting schedule platform, and one of the biggest, they actually uh recruited their one of their people based on how uh the big factor was how what were they doing on LinkedIn to advocate for the for their services? So more and more companies are looking at individual people and going, we should hire them. Look at the difference between that person and that person on LinkedIn. And it's like, okay, it makes sense. You're a recruiter, you're trying to find an affiliate manager, you look at their LinkedIn to check them out to see if they're real and what you know, we do all that kind of social media stalking. And you look at one person that looks like they've not touched it in months or years, and then another person being the ambassador for their program that they're representing, completely invested in it, built their platform and reach with it. Who would you hire?
SPEAKER_02Well, that's the thing. I mean, as an affiliate manager, if you're growing your career, your career grows by the network that you own because all of your partners follow you, and that's the honest truth. And in some industries where they work through networks, you know, the network managers own those relationships and not the actual marketer of the brand. But you should still be talking about what's happening in your industry and presenting yourself as a knowledgeable person in your industry, and LinkedIn is the place to do that. 100% agree. So, last piece of advice for us can you tell everybody listening to this podcast using social to engage more publishers or customers for that matter, depending on where they are in their partnership experience? Give us a quick five-minute hack that we can do on LinkedIn to make ourselves look better and be seen more.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02So just one, just one, because I know you've got a m an arsenal of acts.
SPEAKER_00But give us one good one. 20 seconds. Right? Remember this. If you can if you can hold on to your audience for 20 seconds or more, all of the other metrics work. So if you can do a video and keep people for more than 20 seconds, it's gonna be the best video you've ever done. Right? Same with posts, same with everything. 20 seconds. Right? So how do you keep people for 20 seconds? Don't deliver any value until 20 seconds into the video or 20 seconds into the post. If you do that, I promise you everything rises.
SPEAKER_02So, in that case, if you're gonna do a long form text-based post because you're not a favorite video, and not everybody listening to this will be happy enough to step onto video first go. Would you recommend things like having a video that plays for 20 seconds under the post or having a carousel graphic that goes under that post that people have to scroll through, which keeps them on the post?
SPEAKER_00A carousel that has at least seven pages, because you scroll, scroll, scroll, you've got your twent 20 seconds or more. So, yeah. And on a post, a written post, oddly, the longer the written post, the less likely they are to stay for 20 seconds. So what I always say to people is don't deliver the value till the 60th word.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so that's some pretty good numbers there, guys. So I'm gonna put a challenge out to the audience of our podcast community. I want you to use some of these tips, start posting on your LinkedIn and tag me and Dean. Okay, so tag me and Dean on your LinkedIn post, maybe do a carousel image, maybe do a video if you feel comfortable enough talking about your industry. And we will like and comment on your post. And hopefully that will help your post to rank. Um, we want you to start talking about what's happening in this industry. We want you to use your LinkedIn channel to become a brand ambassador for your business and really take affiliate marketing professional and put it onto the adult network. So thanks so much for being on this podcast, for giving us all of these kind of hacks and fast track moves. It's been a pleasure to have you here talking about what you think is going to be happening in social media for ourselves as brand ambassadors, but also in terms of how we manage influences within our affiliate programs, because I think that's the interesting part that I'm certainly going to take away and start investigating a little bit after this podcast. Always a pleasure to have you behind my mic bean. Thanks so much for your time today.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me and letting me inscript.
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