You're listening to the Affiliate Marketing Podcast brought to you by affiversemedia.com. The chapter and verse of everything you need to know about running a successful affiliate program for your business. This is a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers, publishers, networks, agencies and ma tech providers who operate, support or manage affiliate marketing programs around the globe. If you want to launch, scale, and grow a successful affiliate marketing program, you're in the right place. In this podcast, you'll learn how affiliate and partner marketing is constantly changing. And tune in to industry experts who are getting behind our mic to share tactical insights and practical knowledge to help your affiliate program grow. Here you'll discover what's new and trending in affiliate and performance marketing, how to run your affiliate program successfully and gain industry insights from experts and practitioners from around the globe. The truth is, you simply won't find this information anywhere else. Now here's your award-winning affiliate and performance marketing host, an industry veteran, your affiliate marketing guide and the founder of Affiverse, Leanne Johnston.
SPEAKER_06Welcome to this week's episode of the Affiliate Marketing Podcast with me, your host, Leanne Johnston. We're going to be delving deeper into some of the topics that we discussed over at our Elevate Summit in the summer. And I hope that you find this week's episode incredibly insightful because I certainly did. Earlier this year, I had the pleasure to host Effiverse's second Elevate Summit, a two-day virtual event for anyone working within the affiliate marketing and performance marketing industry. Now I'm delighted to share the highlights of this particular panel discussion covering diversity and inclusion as part of this season, as it was such an important topic at this year's event and one that I really feel strongly about that should get more focused in this industry. The time has come to move away from vanilla marketing and get detailed on how we level up and get diverse and inclusive with our partners and within our marketing campaigns and within our affiliate programmes too. At Elevate in July, we welcomed Simone Charles from CJ.com, Michael Long from Expedia, and Matthew Adai, the founder of Cash Black, an affiliate site and Black Empowered Affiliate Network, who helped us to explore the critical dimensions of what diversity and inclusion mean and the profound impact that they can have in our workplaces. More still, we delved into how affiliate managers should be taking a broader view to engage consumers from diverse marketing campaigns and how to promote our affiliate programs and partnerships better and in line with the pursuit of a more inclusive industry. To kickstart the conversation, what steps do you need to take internally with your teams to get this process started and to become more aware? We discussed how you become more inclusive. Listening to hear our panelists' views to get a sense of what Expedia has been doing to foster inclusion within their workplace and how that's impacted some of the campaigns that they've been running to.
SPEAKER_04I think that's a really great question. And I think this is the question that more affiliate managers need to ask. And I think it's that it starts by identifying where the gaps are. So when we talk about diversity and inclusion, there's so many different categories you can go down. So I think one of the first things you need to ask yourself is who is the target audience? And then also if the target audience wasn't viewing this, are they being included? Are they being included in the messaging? So, you know, not just think about who you're trying to target, but think about who you're not trying to target. And are you also, you know, trying to be inclusive with them? Um, and then ask questions. I think get a second pair of eyes on what you're doing because we get so tied up in our day-to-day of looking at the same thing and speaking from one brand voice. But what about if you get someone who's completely separate from your team to look at it? Would they have kind of certain flags? So I think thinking from a different customer's perspective, asking more questions, and also just don't be afraid to have the conversation, like speak to people and say, what can we do to make this more inclusive? And you know, how can we make this target a wider audience? I think that's where we start.
SPEAKER_06Okay, lovely. Michael, I'm going to come to you because I know that Expedia has internal processes and trainings and programs. Um, talk to us a little bit about what your business is doing around this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, sure. So we have um what we call inclusion business groups. So we have eight different groups. I think this is where it can really help people who are working across any industry to start to understand how do I start to be more inclusive for maybe even they can represent from their own community that they're part of, but then how do I also become an ally and understand what other communities need? What's the language that I should be using when we talk about different things and what are they expecting from us as a brand? So within these um inclusion business groups, sometimes within other organizations, they're called employee resource groups. Um so they are employee-led, um, and then we have eight different ones within Expedia that represent different communities. So we have one called Pride, representing LGBTQ, uh, we have one called Idea, which um represents Indigenous diversity and allies, uh, we have one called Beam, which is uh for Black Expedients and Allies, um, and so forth. So we have them ranging across from accessibility uh to also veterans, uh, which is a big community, uh particularly in America, and then Asian community as well. Um so I think this is a really good fundamental way for actually the whole employee base to part of those communities that helps help them feel connected if they are part of one of those eight. Everyone kind of crosses across one of them at some point. Um, but then also as an ally helps them really understand how what what is important to these other um communities, what's important to these people. Um, and it helps them become more comfortable with that when they're then thinking about their own role of like what does that mean for me in how I talk to customers, how I talk to people in general. And I think that's really enabled us to have a really good foundation where people can learn from it and then know what's next.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_05Matthew, what about your perspective? Because you've worked in this sector for quite some time now.
SPEAKER_02Um, it very much starts at home, um, in my opinion, just because of the fact that we very much are trying to be allies with like all the other different segmentation groups, but we realise that being the small team that we are, free black men, we me and my brothers, we understand the like black community, but then we don't necessarily understand like black women's issues, um, different ones that they may face with regards to being like customers or being employees, just because of the fact that we only understand what we understand. So, in order for us to be able to better perform better in our outreach um to the different um diverse groups with whom we'll be operating or with whom we'll be targeting, it'll be important for us to make sure that we have a team who is diverse as well because it's all in good like knowing which boxes to tick in terms of allyship. Like I'll know that oh, okay, um um this particular group needs to be marketed to this way, that particular group needs to be marketed to that way. But it comes from a place of just like box ticking rather than authenticity. So to have the authenticity, we need people on board to be able to better inform us of when we are like incorrect in our approach to doing stuff rather than just us like assuming like yeah, um assuming how marketing should work for them. We need the people on board to be able to better direct us and just to make sure that it comes from a place of realness rather than just like virtue signaling.
SPEAKER_06Marketing to the wider society seems like a learning process which more and more companies are willing to dig deeper into. We need to start finding out where all of our potential customers are and not focus and assume that the majority are our only demographic. We need to find and understand our niches. And here we're listening to Matthew on his journey in finding Cash Black. Matthew, I want to pick on you a little bit because I know you got some great stats and data about how big this marketplace is and how little it's being serviced in terms of the work that you're doing with black-owned and black-empowered companies. So talk to us a little bit about the journey of why you actually started Cash Black, because I think that's something that the people here need to need to know. Um, that started you on this journey of actually focusing on this niche.
SPEAKER_02Uh, yeah, of course. Um, yeah, obviously it's stent as so many different black-owned businesses did um after the events of the global anti-racism movement in 2020. Um my brothers and I were already doing a bit of research, like something entrepreneurial to do, um, and found that there's a direct correlation between the black support for black-owned businesses and many of the systemic issues with regards to racism in the black community, both in the United Kingdom and throughout the world. And we thought that the best way to try and fix these issues on our end would be to um find a way to incentivize patronage in the businesses and have the businesses reinvest back into the patrons. How about a cashback website, cashback website for black owned businesses? Why don't we call it cash black? And what started off is a sort of does, yeah. Very much. Well, started off as a play on words. Um, now we then went on to really find out the pain points of many of the businesses with whom we'll be working. Um obviously there's of the the two million black people in the United Kingdom spending power of 25 uh 300 billion pounds a year, and the businesses generate 25 billion pounds a year for the British economy, but still feel very much underrepresented. Left. And as bad as as bad as that was, even worse than that, um, we found that during that summer, as many of you might remember, with for example, like Black Square Summer, as it was uh commonly called, um, with all the brands trying to I don't know, out of maybe a sense of guilt, or have you tried to undo whatever bad things they felt they had done in trying to like support um bad people, promote black owned businesses. But there was always a fear from them that I I found after speaking with them after form um former cash flag that it would come from a place of or come with a lack of authenticity. They'd always be a bit scared that they'd be seen through to be doing it just to like just to appear to be benevolent and altruistic rather than actually trying to help these businesses that they're like supposedly trying to support. And um yeah, um it's been it's it's been interesting just to see which ones have been able to keep the same energy and not just with like the support of black owned businesses, because as we've seen with many of these issues, it's fairly cyclical. We had the um like Me Too movement before Black Lives Matter, post Black Lives Matter, we're having like a lot of pushback against the LGBTQ I plus community. So now we're and beyond that, I believe that the next big time would be to like ESG companies um in terms of um sustainability. And so yeah, we're we got we initially got into it um with a view to supporting black owned businesses because uh big major organizations found it difficult to really connect with them and to try and really support them. And yeah, now we're looking to expand to work with the other segmented groups because the stats that might negatively impact the black community with regards to businesses and consumerism, particularly in the affiliate marketing space, they're fairly emblematic of a bigger problem with regards to DENI because there will always be pushback, unfortunately, and there will always be like PR screw-ups from companies who are trying to do good, but they know that they're like they're it they're gonna upset one side of their customers, customer segment. And um, yeah, we're very much just trying to be on the right side of that because ultimately the customers who really are like down for your course, what are what was it, 68% according to Market Week, will look to patronize businesses who are aligned with the business's beliefs as they are. So yeah, it's um it's a struggle in that respect, but then we know that yeah, ultimately the custom the customers who are really aligned with your beliefs will be able to support you in the long run.
SPEAKER_06We shouldn't just assume that our partners or customers want. Taking the time to dig deeper and learn from the bottom up can really make a change in how we build, structure, and advertise our affiliate programs. There are several reports that tell us that minorities make up a big percentage of brands' customer bases, and yet they're often still ignored. In this next clip, we hear from both publisher and brand side on how best to approach and include these niches. I noticed that, you know, even after talking to you because I was made more hyper-aware of how it's actually filtering down into performance marketing, but even in television ads and imagery that people are using, it's it's still very, you know, predominantly white, you know, middle-aged woman or man. And that's kind of how we're still doing that sort of throw generic stuff out there and expect every customer to convert. And we have the tools nowadays to actually become more hyper-personalized. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you, Simone, um, on the publisher side is, you know, do you find that influencers are playing a bigger role in terms of helping brands to actually connect with these niche audiences? What are you guys seeing on that side?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I think influencers are an incredibly powerful tool for any brand, any network, any publisher relationship. However, I think it needs to be done correctly and it needs to be done carefully because what a lot of brands sometimes do is think we need to be more diverse, we need to be more inclusive, and they may get one uh black influencer on their campaign and then think, right, that's the box ticked, we're done. We're done. And it's about understanding that it's not just a tick-box exercise. You're not including, you know, this influencer because they add to your diversity stats, but do you believe in what they're saying? Do you believe in what they're pushing? Do you believe in their audience? Do you believe in their messaging? And then also, I think when working with influencers, a lot of it ties back to, you know, the company itself. So do you have a diverse team, you know, sitting next to you, your colleagues? Because if you get their opinion on the kind of influences to work with, then you'll open up this, you've opened up the horizon so much more, you'll be able to target a much broader way, a much broader audience, sorry. So working with influences is powerful, but it needs to be done right. Otherwise, people audiences will see right through you if they can see that you're doing it for tokenism. Unfortunately, in the age of social media and the different digital platforms we have right now, if brands, if all consumers can see that you're just ticking a box, they will see, and then you may get a negative backlash. So I think it needs to start internally having those conversations with people from different experiences, different backgrounds, and then you can make your digital strategy, including influencers, authentically diverse and targeting different audience groups.
SPEAKER_06Michael, I want to come to you because I think this is important from the brand side. You obviously would have to manage that negative PR backlash. So, how do you approach campaigns now when you want to be more inclusive and you know have diverse customer groups that you're trying to target? What's the strategy that goes behind that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I think like as Simone said, it's we we need to really kind of um start from our own employee uh like culture and resource. So if I can take an example, um sort of looking at um, as I mentioned, we have the different inclusion groups. So we have one which is around accessibility, uh, and that can cover uh physical accessibility of any kind. Um and just using an example of where we've used um or where those people have kind of really consulted with the brand and with me, particularly in partnerships to deliver something. So I worked with someone within that group who they they are blind themselves, they don't have vision, they lost their vision when they were um uh at university. Um, and they work with us a lot on how do we make our sites and our apps and all of our content um accessible. Um, and that's something that then really starts, as Simone was saying, like starts from within. We've got people within our team that are then commenting on like, well, this is what makes it more difficult. And I always remember one thing he said to me when I first started working with them. He said, Everything that you do to try and make your conversion quicker generally makes it more hard for me to interact with the site. Um, and so just having that voice at the table to then just sort of say, this is why it's a big problem for me, and this is why you need to think about these things as either you develop a brand campaign or you develop your site itself. And so for me in partnerships, um, we have an integration uh partnership with Tesco Club Card. Um you can convert your points from their currency into ours and and shop on site. So there's a couple of different steps there that you have to kind of go through. Um, and generally, when uh I kind of thought, well, there's a lot of content that we have on the page, um, I had that person's voice in my head of like, how do we make this truly accessible for that person? And so actually then thinking about all sides of it where they may not have uh vision, they may not be able to hear all of those different things of creating videos, subtitles, all of those things to make the screen readers be able to help those people along the journey. That's generally how we've been using those inclusion groups to then really start to have a they've all got a seat at the table to make sure that if you're thinking about a brand campaign, as as uh the other panelists were just saying, you know, if you're including and we do want it to kind of look at our marketing calendar, that's the other side that they have had an influence on. So another example would be where they then were at the table when the brand teams were then saying, we do want to be more inclusive, but what else should we think about? And it wasn't just a case of saying, hey, include some pictures of these people. There was a real discussion around if you're doing a Mother's Day campaign, anyone can identify as a mother. And how does that then actually then come through in the in the brand creative of how you're being diverse and it needs to be fully part of everything that happens throughout that brand calendar. So using those inclusion groups to be at the table to make those discussions, that's how we've then seen some success from it.
SPEAKER_06It was becoming apparent that in order to foster this diversity and inclusion, changes need to spring from within the organization that you're working in. And you'll have to do real research into people's perspectives and insights, as it is often the case that you will learn something new if you look at something from a different point of view. As a live virtual event, we love to get questions from our delegates. And so listen into this next clip where Matthew answers a question from the audience on making gaming more inclusive. We've got some really cool questions here. So I just want to break for five minutes from the QA. But um, from Tiffany, I work in a very male-dominated industry, PC gaming. We are focused on making gaming inclusive for all, and this is something I'm massively passionate about. How would you recommend we market that we work with all people and that we want to onboard more women, POC, LGBTQI, plus content creators in an authentic way? Apologies if this is too much of a broad broad ask. Tiffany, that's why we're here. We're here to answer all of these questions. So thank you very much for putting that in. Who from the panel would like to answer, Tiffany?
SPEAKER_02I've got an answer for that. Um yeah, there are, especially with gaming, there are loads of groups um dedicated to like diverse audiences who like play video games um or blog about video games, create content about video games. In fact, there's a massive boost in like streamers, particularly um women's um like girl streamers, women streamers who are like very much leading the way for like a new brand of content being created. Um like literally tens to hundreds of thousands of followers, and their followers are very much made up of like young girls who also love video games, and um, yeah, those groups. I think, for example, we're semi-affiliated with black girl gamers, um, run by JN Lopez. So um that's like literally just one off the top of my head. And beyond that, there are several different groups who would love the approach of people who are in the recruitment or who are recruiting for like the video game industry. Because as much as we love to be able to play it, I know for a fact me as a kid being into gaming would have loved to have been given the opportunity to actually get into that field, and that's just me as a guy, as a very male-dominated industry. If I really wanted to, I could have like applied for the likes of EA or Activision much easier. But had I been a girl, I may have been a bit put off by it. So, yeah, very much by approaching these different groups dedicated to getting like more diverse audiences into video games, which already exists, would be the best way. Because yeah, already if you are seeking them out and approaching them, then it is already from a place of authenticity.
SPEAKER_06Authenticity is a key word when it comes to your audience. There is an underlying fear that brands and companies may only promote inclusivity and diversity as tokenism or to tick a box. Some may do it with the right intentions, but their efforts may be misjudged. So, how as promoters can we overcome this? Listening to this part of the discussion on further ways to become more authentic and diverse in your marketing and with your partners, taking their view in pride rushing and in terms of accountability, how they can ensure that initiatives don't just fizzle up. I think we are, as marketers, a little bit afraid to push the boundaries of what we have normally always done, and that is slowing the progress in terms of making things more inclusive and diverse. So, what are some of the common like tactical things that you can recommend to people other than talking to your customers first and sense checking stuff, but also being Authentic. Are there any other things that people need to be doing to get more inclusive and diverse with their marketing and also with their partners?
SPEAKER_04I can jump in on that one. And I've said it before, but I think it really rings true here, especially is the importance of having multiple eyes on what you're doing. If you've just got the marketing team that are working on one campaign and you're not doing your research with other members of your team, other members of the business, and finding out how it because you know, a campaign may not land with other people the same way it lands with you. You're passionate about something, you see it through one lens. But someone who doesn't identify in the same way you do may look at it and think this is awful. And I think about the the Pepsi Mac scandal with Kendall Jannah years ago. Um, you know, had you had more diverse people on your marketing team at the marketing agency working on that campaign, then someone would have put their hands up and said, Hey, I don't think this is going to land very well. And then maybe there may have been a different outcome. So when you have a very diverse um marketing team and team in general, and then they can all look at what you're doing, that helps it really genuinely come from an authentic place. And then you can avoid that PR backlash because you know that you've done everything to maintain the integrity of your brand when you're putting this out. So just making sure it goes through a lot of different eyes. Don't just assume you know what the audience wants and put it out there. Actually talk to people within your immediate circle and also customers, like we said, but you know, just making sure you get all the eyes on it before it goes out.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I was just gonna say, just on that, just not being afraid of the feedback as it comes in because it all comes from a positive intent place, right? So sometimes people can feel a little bit personal, like, oh, I've worked on this and I thought it was gonna be good, but then as we then become good allies and and work through this, always just assume that positive intent of like when someone says, actually, Michael, I'm not sure that that's gonna land the way that you thought it would, um, and don't be you know afraid to course correct um after you get that. I think that's just an important piece to as you go through that process that Simone just outlined.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so be self-critical as well. Natasha's raised a really good question here. How do we feel about brands that are pride washing, which has been quite a big uh topic of conversation in the last couple of weeks? So what do you guys think? Is it better to just not say anything at all and just you know come to the party when you are actually ready, or should you still make a stab at trying to be supportive? I remember washing your LinkedIn, for example. Like what what are your thoughts on this?
SPEAKER_03Uh I I think that um it it's important to start somewhere, right? So it's good to be uh part of that movement, but I think it sort of links back to um what we were saying when it comes to some of those tech things that you might want to integrate or a brand campaign. Just don't just do it for the month. I think that's where you know the that authenticity runs through for all of those different communities, right? So it's not just right during the month of June, we'll then support in terms of pride and then actually let's forget and let's take down everything that's related to that. Um I think you know, we see it in gyms and things like that. They might have rainbow flags up and like, hey, pride, and then you know, have it all over the mirrors. Um don't necessarily just take it down, just kind of like if even if it is that you're starting on that journey, just you know, keep going through with it. Don't just kind of feel like, well, that month's over, let's let's finish and let's focus on something else. Um I think I mentioned before that we have the the months of observance for each of our inclusion groups. Um but the one of the other reasons why we bring all of those events together is because it's not meant to be that we only celebrate that community during one month and then kind of put it in our back pocket for for later. So I I think it's good to start start somewhere, but just don't be afraid to keep it going. Don't kind of think, okay, June's done, take it down. That would be my opinion.
SPEAKER_06It's not just for Christmas, right? So it's like build it into your entire strategy. Okay, so accountability is crucial when aiming for inclusivity and diversity and program marketing strategy. So how do you how do you ensure accountability for actually moving this forward and not just having it fall off the radar or be a small piece that you um kind of push in? Does that have to be driven from the C-level suite or can it be taken on board with the partners that you work with or or kind of spend your money with in order to pull certain triggers? What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_04I think um I think it starts at all areas of the business. I think having being accounted and also I think it also depends on what what are you working towards, right? It's not just a buzzword, it's not just something that you say, oh, we need to be more diverse and inclusive. What are you trying to say? What are you what customers are you trying to target? And this can start from the bottom and it can start from the top. These employee action groups, we have them at CJ, and then we also have them within the wider publicist group. And as a member of the um the DEI team in CJ, we meet monthly and we say, what are we trying to achieve this month? What are we trying to do? So during Ramadan, we put a lot of collateral to educate our um our colleagues about what Ramadan is and you know how it's celebrated and how to be mindful of it. So I think being intentional with what it is that you actually want to do and then committing to it, meeting regularly, having check-ins, think how are we doing, you know, that really helps to be helps everyone to be accountable.
SPEAKER_06In the last clip, I want to leave you with what our panelists' key takeaways were and my personal summary of this insightful conversation and how I'd like to see affiliate managers implement diversity and inclusion in their programs with a little bit more visibility as we move forward. Let's just round it up with one key piece of advice that you would give to anybody listening to this panel who is running an affiliate program, has a desire to be more inclusive and diverse in the way that they're working with both their customers and also their partners. What's the one big takeaway that you can give them today to help them get started? And Michael, I'm going to start with you at the top.
SPEAKER_03Sure, for me it's uh just make those connections. So, as we've been talking about throughout uh this, you know, connect with people from those different parts of the community and take their um insights um and just really use them to kind of build on your marketing and your your partnerships.
SPEAKER_04Thank you.
SPEAKER_06Simone, from your perspective?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I would say do market research, speak to your employees, speak to your customers, speak to your publishers, and find out where your gaps are, and then you can start to think about what you can do to become more inclusive. But do your research and don't be afraid to ask questions.
SPEAKER_06I think that's a key thing. Don't be afraid because I think fear keeps us back from doing anything that's progressive. Uh uh Matthew, what about you? What's your last piece of um advice that you can give to people that want to be more inclusive?
SPEAKER_02Keep the same energy. It's easy to just jump on a trend to make it look like you care about certain causes or you have certain beliefs which you feel will align with audiences who you want to attract. But so long as it comes from a good place of genuine altruism and benevolence, then yeah, the proof on what you were doing will eventually show in the results that you do achieve.
SPEAKER_06And I think our consumers are brand savvy. You know, they know when something is being fed to them as a marketing employee and when something is actually genuine and making an impact on them. So just keep that authenticity. So there you have it. I hope that we've really spurred the conversation on how to advocate for diversity and inclusion in a thought-provoking, authentic, and long-lasting manner. Being inclusive is not an obligation, but by doing so, you can reach a far wider audience when this is done properly. Acknowledge your customers and look inward at your efforts so that you can reward your partners with loyalty and support to bring this effective change in our industry. I hope that you've enjoyed this session and some of the highlights that we shared at our Elevate Summit. Don't forget to book your tickets to join us at Amplify on the 23rd and 24th of January because our next virtual summit is going to have an amazing array of speakers coming to join us and talk about some of the future trends and growth tactics that you'll need to be implementing in your affiliate programs as we face the year ahead.
SPEAKER_01This podcast is brought to you by AMP. The Affiliate Manager Performance Program is designed for ambitious affiliate program managers working at brands, agencies, or affiliate networks that are looking to grow and scale their affiliate programs and partner performances. We've already helped hundreds of affiliate program managers from a range of industries get the best out of their affiliate partnerships and build consistent sales within their affiliate programs. With just one hour per week over a 12-week period, this program is unlike any other. You learn proven tactics, tested strategies, and access decades of experience with industry veterans who have launched, scaled, and grown multi-million dollar affiliate programs around the world. Book your seat on our next cohort by visiting our website, affiversemedia.com, and hit the training menu. From there, you can register your interest for our next cohort launch or simply contact our sales team to find out more. That's a wrap for this week's affiliate marketing podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down, why not head over to Apple ITs and give us a five-star review? Make sure to subscribe to our podcast and our YouTube channel so you never miss another insightful episode or one of our free webinars ever again. Tune in next week for more digital affiliate marketing insights, trends, tips, and content to keep your affiliate and performance marketing fresh and your partners driving consistent sales.