Hi, and welcome back to the Three Questions Podcast with me, Lianne Johnston from Affiliate Insider. And today I'm really excited to be talking to Nikola Teofilovich, the general manager from Katena Media. Hi Nicola, how are you?
SPEAKER_00I'm great. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to participate.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much for joining us today. So we've got three quick fire questions for you, which I'm really excited to ask you about because I've seen quite a lot of news updates on your LinkedIn profile recently about the fact that you've been involved in the startup space, which is quite exciting and obviously dealing with a lot of entrepreneurs there. So can you talk to us a little bit about why you're supporting initiatives like this and what have you learned from the entrepreneurs that you've been working with in this space?
SPEAKER_00I started my own first own company actually in 2001, and it was uh here in Serbia. It was an outsourcing business, uh labor arbitrage, and uh it's I'm very proud that it's still active today. It's owned by a company called Mogul, which is owned by a listed company in Sweden called AdNode. Uh so I've been um an entrepreneur myself, and uh now I've also taken a very active part in building the first professional business angel network here in in Serbia through our organization, uh dsi.com or it's digital na Serbia, digital Serbia, and uh we're trying to drive the tech industry uh forward in all important aspects. The site is available in English as well, uh, but one of them is building this and nurturing the startup ecosystem where I'm very active, and uh also in the educational part. Uh so I think that uh yeah, uh entrepreneurship is super important uh when it comes to both innovation, but that uh usually takes much more resources, but also in reverse engineering, where you can find something where there's already a big demand, prove it or do it better, and then there is an opportunity. So I have a couple of investments I've been investing since uh uh pretty very early age. Uh so I started to invest in stocks uh when I was 15, 16, and I got a huge interest from the from the financial markets, and that developed into uh investing in entrepreneurs and entrepreneurial projects as well.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. And that's a really interesting space because I think you know, when you're working with entrepreneurs, you're involved in such a lot of innovation because really that's what drives an entrepreneur forward is you know finding an opportunity or an idea or a piece of tech or creating a piece of tech. I'm sure that you get a lot of um personal pleasure out of dealing with those businesses and learning about new things because it really does keep you current. And I know I feel that way when I deal with affiliates in in the space, you know, they're always more agile than what an operator is, and so you end up learning a lot more just by being with them. So let's talk a little bit more about affiliate marketing and how you see 2020 and beyond rolling forward. Obviously, you're working for one of the biggest um iGaming affiliate companies, the Tenor Media, as well, alongside this. What do you think big affiliate businesses like yours are looking to kind of move forward with in the years to come?
SPEAKER_00Uh let me just uh also give you some more info on that. Uh in Serbia we have 70 plus 70 people now, and we're mainly doing asgambers.com, which is the largest affiliate in the industry, standalone. Uh so uh that's what we mainly do from here. Uh and uh yeah, I mean the there's a lot of interesting things going on, and and and I mean a couple of years ago there was a multiple arbitrage opportunity, which the founders of Katina Media, especially Optimizer, uh were the ones that could actually uh make that happen. But uh and it then back then it was mostly a garage business. Uh and uh we were the first one to aggressively started to buy companies, and there was some kind of multiple arbitros who made over 40 acquisitions, and then uh a lot of competitors popped up, uh like uh Rake Tech by the Collective. I mean, they were there, but they were also starting to compete in these uh MA activity. Uh NetGaming, Ray Tech, Smaller Power One, XL was always there as well. Uh, while now we're going into a completely different this is my subjective opinion, of course, but we're going into a different phase uh where professional excellence has has been added in several affiliate companies in our industry in iGaming, and where organic growth is getting more and more and more important. And this is where also the entrepreneurial uh spirit and the having intrapreneurs that have entrepreneurial uh experience come into place because it's really important to be innovative, it's really important to create new amazing products and not just buying them because they are more expensive today, and uh entrepreneurs aren't willing to sell their 70-80% margin business for maybe two to four times the EVDAO or whatever. So uh I think this is even getting more and more important. Uh, but also if you are a great entrepreneur, the opportunity is uh bigger because it's a more mature industry where the valuations are higher, where where there either are uh companies that are listed that have deep pockets or can potentially have through raising a bond or whatever it is. So it's very interesting times, but it's quite different from five years ago.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I mean I think five years ago people were looking at sort of global expansion, they weren't really looking at innovation, and and I think that's sort of where you spoke and touched on the fact that the market's maturing, because it's not just about globally you know making the business bigger, but it's also about expanding the breadth of the business and looking at other technologies and other ways to engage. So I'm quite excited because you know Ask Gamblers has always been at the forefront of innovation. You know, you were one of the first affiliate companies to ever exhibit at an event, I'll never forget that. Um, and you know, last year you launched something called um the Ask Amblers Awards, which I was very lucky to attend. Now, what struck me about that awards is that it was the first time that an affiliate had pulled together players and operators where the players actually had the choice in terms of determining who they felt was the best operator versus the industry voting as in terms of some of the other awards that are available. So, can you talk us through a little bit about what's happening in this next year's edition, which has just recently kicked off, and why this initiative is so important for you and the Askabners team?
SPEAKER_00Uh I can I can't tell you that much because we want to make a big impact and uh I can't out any maybe new things. I want them to be uh delivered live, and and we're privileged to have you once again as uh as our uh uh as our media partner, exclusive media partner, which which will be amazing. So, in order to create the biggest impact, we we would like to uh everyone to experience that on the show. But when it comes to innovation, I I would like to to say that even I mean for us innovation is super important, and and AG, as you mentioned, AG Awards, uh is is a part of being innovative. We wanted to you know move things around and change things and really let like we wanted to be the first affiliate that actually created a conference which is not sponsored by anyone, yeah, which is as unbiased as it can be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh and uh where and it was actually quite interesting because a lot of operators were were asking me during the event, like, why don't you you know take any sponsorship? This is an amazing event, so great, blah blah blah. And I said it's because we don't want that, because if we get some kind of sponsors for this event, it will never be perceived or and it will not be unbiased. And that's why we want it what we want it to be, really. And uh that's a part of us trying to be innovative uh when it comes to the industry and change something uh towards something that we think is uh both better and and new. Uh, but I will also like to emphasize that we're continuously trying to do innovations such as the AG coin. We launched our video reviews now. BitStars was the first casino to to have their video review and it's live now. Uh and you mentioned AG Awards, and we're we're always trying to do, even though we are the number one and are perceived as the number one, there's no time to rest. You always have to push forward. And as you said, it has been a lot about global uh growth, and this is also something we're working with, and and soon enough you will see AG in more languages, fully localized, which is uh amazing. Quite exciting. So uh yeah, we want to bring AG to the whole world, that's the plan. And then, of course, uh one thing that is interesting to discuss is is uh the compliance thing because a lot of things are changing, and in our industry, the legal side is uh is very important for your business decisions because it can be a game-changing uh thing if a political party wins and wants to, uh, as we had in Italy. Uh but yeah, uh so and what we're seeing in the UK with the KYC and uh and other stuff. So so you have to be you have to follow everything um and to be quick and fast. And uh yeah, that's that's also where the entrepreneurial uh, if you have an entrepreneurial background, uh it's uh it's easier for you because uh entrepreneurs are more used to uh fast changing uh environment where you have to be super flexible and super agile. Uh and this is also growing big is is a challenge because as you grow big, you become a system, you be you set structures, and structures, if not done correctly, can be limited uh can limit you as well.
SPEAKER_01So and that's I think one of the key things for me that makes me disagree with anybody that ever says that affiliate marketing is gonna die. I think the operators that are really clever, they will work more closely with affiliates because they are agile and because they're in the front lines, you know, looking at technology, looking at innovation, looking at growth, um, and because they're agile enough to do those things, you know, they're not bound by some of the rules and regulations that operators are, but they are kind of looking to align with those rules and regulations to ensure that everything's compliant, but they still have that agility to move and change. Just on a last note for me, I mean, the biggest thing that I have really loved about.
SPEAKER_00Can I just make a comment on that you said? Because I think uh it's great that you you actually brought it up. I think there's a one thing, and it it's a core thing which people usually maybe forget when it comes to affiliate marketing. It comes from uh a very, very strong core where the core is however you've done it, to be straight into the target group. Even if you're very SEO focused and you have a domain or whatever, you have the traffic, you get the traffic. If you do you can do it in a different way, there are different strategies, but it's straight into the target group. So, what I see affiliation becoming, and it's more and more becoming that. It's the most important publisher for the operator. Yes. So, and this is where we have developed. This is why we're looking at new digital formats, podcasts, uh, video reviews, maybe more video content when it comes to branding and other stuff. Because I see the future of Katina Media is becoming more and more, uh, taking more and more money for established uh because nobody wants to pay high CPMs that don't deliver any results. Those times are over, and and uh so I I think that actually the lead generation business or the affiliate business has the brightest future.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally agree with that. The other thing that's really great is that affiliates are authentic to their brand. So, and that's one thing that I have enjoyed seeing ask gamblers over time. You have always been the voice of the players. Um, and even with the stuff that you're doing now with the awards, with you know how you're moving your content forward and your um innovation strategies, you're always doing all of these things and matching it back to how can we service the players, and the players are really what make this industry, um, and often that's sometimes forgotten, you know, they're just a byproduct, and and that shouldn't be the case. So I think that's also one of the reasons why you guys are so successful in the fact that you kind of live the brand, you really get under the skin of understanding your end user and your audience, and really that's what makes for successful marketing. Um, I just want to thank you so much for spending your time with us today and sharing some of the innovations and ideas and concepts that you guys are working on because I do believe that you know we need to educate and share our knowledge and grow the industry together. So, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It was really great to chat to you and to hear what's happening.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very, very, very, very much. And and I also just uh in order to finish, I want to make a comment on just what you said. And it's for for entrepreneurs or people that want to innovate, focus on the user. You mentioned it. That's the the that would be core of success uh for your success. We have almost reached 28 million dollars now through our complaint system, which we have helped players to retrieve. It's a it's a great example of a user-centric service that we were the first ones to launch. And uh Casino is harder to innovate because it's not uh skill-based, as you can argue, that sports betting, and also finance and other verticals may be. But uh but focus on the user and focus on uh what the user wants. And uh I think the it will be harder and harder to create a product that will only be focused on very various SEO strategies uh uh that you know to rank top three uh with whatever means uh there are. Uh you need to, you know, by the end of the day, Google will update and update, and they need to do this, and we've seen that they're doing it, and the algorithm is going more and more on trying to figure out those who are trying to manipulate with the with the organic search. Uh so I think for if you are in for the long term, focus on what exactly what you said, and you want to innovate, focus on the user.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate your time, and we look forward to seeing what happens in the future.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much, and thank you for giving me this opportunity.