Welcome to the Affiliate Insider Podcast. This is a podcast for Digital and Affiliate Marketers in the iGaming Industry Force. Listen up as I explore the latest digital and affiliate marketing trends and give you the insider's group on what's occurring in affiliate marketing. Join us as we explore affiliate strategies, host expert interviews with leading affiliates and tech entrepreneurs and discuss the latest affiliates and digital marketing trends. If you want to stay at the cutting edge of affiliate marketing, you're in the right place.
SPEAKER_00Join me for this week's episode and let's get started.com. And click on it to find out more.
SPEAKER_03Today I'm joined by two people who need a little introduction in our industry. Hello, thank you very much for joining us today.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_03And someone who I've known for many, many years in the gaming industry, and everybody else will know too. She's often been referred to as the uh Christiane, I'm a poet of the iGaming industry. Miss Becky Legero. How are you? Hello, Leanne. I'm great. Hi, Calvin.
SPEAKER_04Hi, hi.
SPEAKER_03Now, Calvin, I mean, people don't really need a massive introduction to you if they're listening from the iGaming space, but if they aren't, I just want to say that you're a venture capitalist, a real estate developer, the founder of the Air Group and CoinGeek. And you've been in this industry for, you know, a couple of decades now. I mean, you're you're one of the forefathers of iGaming, number one, but we're here today to talk about crypto and blockchain. Um, and I'm very, very excited about the show that we've got planned today because we're talking about a topic that most people don't really yet fully understand, and I'm very excited to learn about, and that's the blockchain and Bitcoin space and how that's relating to digital marketing in our future. So, without any further ado, I'm gonna jump straight into the questions because I know that a lot of our listeners are itching to know more about Bitcoin SV, particularly as well, which is why we've invited you here to join us. So let's start at the beginning. Um tell us a little bit about you know, kind of what the blockchain space is looking like because we've seen crazy pricing that's been happening around BTC. And I want to make that clear that BTC is is uh a cryptocurrency and other currencies as well that are in this um space. Now, the first question I think people are gonna ask is is this a fad? Is it sustainable? And what impact um of crypto as a take up um as it becomes a more mainstream in our current ecosystem?
SPEAKER_04Right. A lot of stuff to unpack there in that question. Uh let me start by saying that I actually started building a sports betting platform in 1993. So uh we're just a couple years away from me being 30 years in this industry. So uh yeah, it's been a long haul.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And my my involvement in in gaming right now, more so more now, and that I've shut down my media site though, uh, which is just recently, and I'm we might talk about that later, is that I'm trying to educate people in the gaming space about things that they can do with the original Bitcoin protocol. Now this leads into your question because in order to answer your question, I need to explain some things. Bitcoin was originally designed to be a peer-to-peer electronic cash system, but it was a lot more than that. It was actually a data management and valuation platform and also a global computer and a layer that uh could manage data on the internet, it's called the MetaNet. It was designed to be all these things. And when it was originally launched by uh Dr. Craig Wright, who is the uh founder of Bitcoin under the name of Satoshi Nakamoto, uh, when he originally launched it, his idea was that he would free it and then it would take off and people would understand because for him, he's got Asperger syndrome, and so for him, it was very obvious of where that he thought the technology would go. Uh as we all know, it it got hijacked by the uh people behind BTC, and and subsequently uh a lot of the powers were taken out of the platform on the BTC branch, and that allowed for the uh creation of Ethereum, which is a non-scaling version of what the original Bitcoin protocol was designed to do, which is data management and all these things I said before. So thankfully, uh Craig, myself, and Stefan Matthews had a meeting in June of 2015, and we decided to save the original protocol, and that is now trading only as BSV. And this protocol has its own ecosystem, and it is not a cryptocurrency. It is not a cryptocurrency.
SPEAKER_03I want to make that clear.
SPEAKER_04The crypto space does include BTC. It certainly includes Ethereum and all the rest of them as well, and relates to this uh speculative trading exchange model that's going on right now, and they do it, they've got their their uh digital gold narrative for BTC, which makes no sense to me, but that's fine. Let them have it. Uh, the original protocol, which is now BSV, is designed for data management. So it doesn't actually have a competitor, it was launched with a structure that is now patent protected but uh open source on BSV uh that allows unbounded scaling, and that's why it's unique in its ability to not only have super um cheap transactions, but as the technology scales, the transaction costs actually get smaller instead of larger, like it does in all the other platforms. So all the other platform platforms, by their very design, are unable to scale to enterprise uh use. So the original Bitcoin protocol BSV is has a global monopoly on enterprise level data management evaluation. Okay, and what I want to do is educate people in the gaming space on how to use this technology to increase the efficiency of the how you actually run your business. Yes, it is also the best payment rails that you can use, the cheapest and most reliable, safest payment rails. But that is just like icing on the cake.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and what's pretty big frosting because payments is a massive industry for iGaming. I mean, I I come from the e-wallet space. I used to work at Paysafe. So I understand how payments work and you know the in and out and the volume of transactions that are happening. So in that respect, it's it's huge, but it has even bigger impacts, and this is what we wanted to talk to you about today.
SPEAKER_04Yep, for payments, actually, it's essentially free and there's no chargebots. So it is it's the best payments method that's ever been invented on the planet for doing payments on a distributed network like the internet. But that's just icing on the cake. It's the data management capabilities of this technology that'll allow people to fundamentally rethink how they run their businesses. And the businesses that that don't start looking at this now are gonna wake up one day and realize that they've actually missed the boat. And that there's gonna be competitors out there that are gonna be operating at substantially lower operating costs than they are using this technology.
SPEAKER_03So this is really for is it for operators, or is it when you talk about businesses in iGaming? Because there's so many parts of the ecosystem, there's agencies, there's affiliates, there's networks, there's operators that are actually you know taking the gaming transactions. Does this technology actually infiltrate that entire ecosystem, or is it really just for the operators, the merchants?
SPEAKER_04No, it actually is exactly designed to allow uh silos of data to be broken up and to allow people to share diet data across disparate different organizations, but still allow people that own the data to control it and monetize it. And that's exactly what this is for. This this platform, this one platform, will will allow all those uh different segments that you just mentioned, all of them can run their business on top of this platform and all interoperate with each other privately and securely, but not anonymously.
SPEAKER_03But also faster, isn't it? Because it's instant. I mean, the the little bit of knowledge that I have, and I'm I'm sorry I'm jumping around in the interview, but you what you're saying is so valid. Um smart contracts, all of that kind of stuff. I know we're gonna come to that a little bit later, but um so you've broken down the kind of Bitcoin marketplace and you've and you've explained the difference between BTC and what BSV is. And I know Becky, you mentioned this in our call, and I am gonna bring it up because you basically said that it's like the protocol is the plumbing that enables application developers and enterprises to build on the blockchain. So I want to talk a little bit about what that means. Is it you know, because we've got games developers, we've got operators that have platforms, we've got affiliates that have got websites. What does that actually mean? What is this plumbing, this BSV plumbing? If I can call it that.
SPEAKER_04It's another way to manage your data. And uh uh before uh the old way the world worked, you've got distributed databases, like we'll use Oracle as an example that everyone's familiar with. And everybody's got their Oracle database and they've got their data, and it's all private there, and they've got some APIs opened up for some select people to get in access to the data. Well, this technology allows you to have uh everybody using the same database basically, but yet still has a large so that everybody in the whole ecosystem can be running all their businesses on the same data uh uh uh database. And and the technology is powerful enough that it allows you to control who has access to your data, and but it makes it easy to to hand your data to people that you want to hand it to because of the nano transactions ability of this technology, you can have real real-time payments. So you're not talking about settling at the end of the month or the end of the week or however it happens now. I think you're gonna pay an attention. Uh but you can settle every transaction on a per-transaction basis.
SPEAKER_03Which is phenomenal. I mean, like a mammoth that you think about it.
SPEAKER_04Just to really, really put this in perspective, people have been able to send a million dollars around the world for a long time. It's been a little bit slow and a little bit expensive relative to what we can do today, but they've been able to do it. And for the most part, there wasn't really a big pent-up demand for people wanting to send, uh, find a cheaper way to send a million dollars or a faster way to send a million dollars. Um, this technology allows you to send uh a fraction of a penny around the world economically.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it's funny you should say that because you know, we just received a check in the post today for three cents from our uh Scottish power uh company who had to refund us, which is like you know, the cost of writing the paper and killing the trees.
SPEAKER_04You know, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. But with this technology, you can do it. In fact, you wouldn't need to get a refund check because you'd all of that stuff gets settled real time on every transaction, so there never is a refund cycle even necessary. And because of the this ability for these transactions to be so low cost, you can do just a lot of really amazing applications. You can create businesses that are selling things for fractions of a penny globally, and that's never been possible before. So, so I I'm not gonna sit here and say I've got every uh s sort of concept of every way this technology can be used, but I do know absolutely for one thing because I've seen it. I'm old enough to have been there when the internet was connected, it will um invented and rolled out, and I remember looking at it and and thinking about all the things that we could do with it, and first thing that came into my mind was sports betting, but uh a lot of other people came up with other ideas that were certainly worth a lot more than my idea. So I expect the same thing will happen here. I think we're gonna roll this out, the ability to have businesses that can sell things for a fraction of a penny globally, and you're gonna have people in surprising places in the world because unlike the old days when the internet was launched, it was still basically the uh the elite uh countries who really had an opportunity to to sort of play in that space, people from the the good universities that had access to high-speed internet and all that stuff. Now, uh you you can see a smart programmer anywhere in the world could be making a business sort of on their phone and selling something. So I think it's gonna open up some pretty interesting stuff. And uh I I look forward to that, and that's on the that's sort of the uh consumer-facing side of things. I think the other thing that's gonna really shock people is the way that this technology is gonna uh solve enterprise data problems. And so you're gonna have large enterprises using this technology to solve their data problems. So people are gonna be using this this platform when they're interacting with companies, and they won't even know it. It'll all be happening in the background. So some unique data problem got solved.
SPEAKER_03So talking about data, and this is totally kind of left field, it wasn't anything that we were gonna discuss, but you've brought it up. I can see this technology actually impacting the entire paid media space because you know, everything, you know, you've got the Facebook, you've got the Google, you've got, you know, the new um cookie list tracking, all of this kind of stuff. I mean, is blockchain the next iteration of how we move forward then? And and how should digital marketers be following this story and and and looking at how they change the way that they plan and execute their digital marketing, not just affiliates, but you know, even paid media.
SPEAKER_04I think you probably should aim that question at Becky. Hi, Becky, haven't you been studying how uh some new digital marketing companies are coming? Aren't you using one of the ones that I actually have a shareholder in? TonicPow?
SPEAKER_01I sure am. And Lianne, I've told you about TonicPow before. And in fact, I've already put you in touch with them. I do before.
SPEAKER_03I had a long conversation with Nick, and he's a fantastic guy.
SPEAKER_01Oh, how I love that. That's so exciting. And I think every time I get in front of someone like you, Lianne, I love talking about TonicPow because I actually use it every day. So in fact, I'm even an affiliate of sorts. So what I do is is I take CoinGeek articles, even ones that I write, because CoinGeek has a campaign setup for TonicPow. Okay, and I share the relevant ones to my audience. So I pick the articles that address the gambling industry, you know, provide blockchain solutions to the gambling industry, and I share them on my social. Yeah. And so what happens is that since I've provided content that my following cares about, they actually read it, and then I get paid every single time. And in microtransaction.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so what happens, it's the coolest thing ever. I wake up in the morning, open up my hand cash account, and it's just growing. It's not millions of dollars.
SPEAKER_03No, but it's it's passive income, isn't it? I mean, it's passive income that's happening on the side through everyday applications, through everyday stuff that you're doing. And this is the exciting thing that I wanted to talk about is that this technology is actually going to change the way that we do our marketing, that we communicate. So it's data, it's payments, but it's so much more. And this is why I wanted you guys to talk about it.
SPEAKER_04It's creating a third way for content providers to monetize their data. Right now on the internet, there's only two ways it's advertising or subscription.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, this is this is a third method that was impossible before this technology came around and made it economical nanotransactions possible. So um with this technology, not only can you pay, like there's been some other technologies people have tried where it's like paper page or article. And that's been out for a long time, but it was it's it was very niche because you had to have an article that was big enough that was that people were are thinking or at not necessarily big enough, but had enough value in it that people would pay something that would overcome the transaction costs, the friction of the old payment methods like credit cards or whatever people were using online, pay PayPal and stuff like that. Yeah. Now, now not only can you extend that that out to all data, but you can actually create models where people pay you according to how many words they read.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that's phenomenal because that is right down to granular, like tracking and targeting, you know, like how they do on videos. I mean, you know, you only get paid if if you watch 70 seconds of a video or whatever the case may be. And and this is gonna revolutionize the way that we do digital marketing as a whole.
SPEAKER_04Correct. Um absolutely, that's one space. That's just one space that's gonna get revolutionized. I believe that it will touch everything. I mean, why would you you you can do your accounting on it? You can run your your your accounts payable on it. I mean, you can run your whole business on it. But how far are we including your treasury?
SPEAKER_03But yeah, I mean, well, hey, I mean, that's a massive that's a a whole other kind of you know global UN conversation, but but how far are we from having this protocol, this technology implemented into mainstream businesses? Like what is then what's the roadmap? Is it gonna be like you know, 20 years ago when we first had a mobile phone? And I'm old enough to remember the first Nokia brick mobile phone that came out. Um, you know, like and looking at the phones today and what we can do with that. I mean, our phone is basically a mini computer in our pocket, basically. I mean, i is it the same kind of revolution that we're gonna see with this technology going forward? And and is it gonna be 20 years in the making, or are we looking at at like five to ten years? You know, like how quick is this gonna happen?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I'd say it's gonna happen fairly quick, but clearly there's just lots of uh established interests that are gonna want this to be slowed down. And I think probably better than cell phones, a better uh example of sort of uh a technology that got slowed down a lot when it got got rolled out is what we're doing right now. Uh voice over IP.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04This this came out. I started working on a voice over IP project called Telescape even before I got I decided that I was gonna create a a sports betting platform on the internet back in the early 90s. And uh we were ahead of our time because uh a lot of people didn't really understand what we were doing. Uh there wasn't um uh speakers on multimedia wasn't on uh what was called multimedia for a while, and now it's just a normal laptop that didn't exist. So uh we we had this company and we started it, and we spent about a half a million dollars, and eventually it folded and we just couldn't get support for it and stuff. But we in hindsight I now realize that the the part of the problem was the big telephone companies were threatened by it, and they made it really difficult for us to move ahead. They they were going so far as as spreading the word that what we were doing was actually illegal.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_04So we're seeing the same thing with this technology. Uh there are interests that are in the people behind BTC as an example. I mean, they they have a model that's significantly different than what BSV, the original platform, is focused on, yet they are terrified of what BSV can do. And some of that may be coming from the fact that if you look at a pie graph of what BS of what BSV can do, there's this little sliver that that's so small it's gonna look like a line, like a single line. That's what BTC does. That's the piece of the BSV universe that BTC has decided that they're gonna they've they've retreated to. So one of their fears is that eventually BSV is gonna be doing so much that the that their argument for did their uh digital gold narrative won't make any sense either, because of course uh anything with utility has a much higher store of value. So the digital gold narrative will apply to BSV more than that. Uh, but I also think that if you look at the people that are behind uh BTC, the blockstream people, the people that control it, uh it's a lot of old uh money that's involved in the old financial system.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And uh they've got interest in slowing this technology down, and that I'm sure is why they were early investors in it, is so they could get their hands around it and uh start tripping it. And if we wouldn't have come in and saved the original protocol, in fact it wouldn't exist today, it wouldn't have had a network effect and and the old paradigm would have gone on for a while. Uh, but this gives the technology what we've given the technology a time to uh an environment to prosper in, and eventually the same thing should happen. Eventually, us having this conversation is completely normal, and the telecom companies are actually have found a way to engage in it, and they are the ones that are running the lines that this conversation is going over, the same thing's gonna happen. This technology will prosper now, and the banks and financial institutions will adjust to it and they will find a way to work inside the new system.
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, I remember sitting at conferences three, five, five years ago going, Bitcoin's never gonna be integrated into e wallets. Hello, here we are, five years later, and everybody's in. So, I mean, I I think with any new technology that comes out, with anything that's different and disrupts the current environment, it's always going to have a period of you know getting used to adoption, understanding. And that's really why I wanted you both to come on this on this call today, because I think it's important that we understand that you know we shouldn't be afraid of new things. And sometimes as digital marketers, we are, we're afraid to try new things and to push the boundaries because we always are measured on what we have to deliver today. But this is something that's coming, and it's something that's going to disrupt many ecosystems that currently exist within digital, from affiliates to paid media, and and we're seeing that now with with the tools like like you've just discussed, like tonic power. Um and I am going to get Luke on a on a podcast later on because I do want to explore his platform. I think it's phenomenal, and I think there's we spoke about it for quite a while. There's a lot of applications that can be used in the affiliate industry and influencer marketing as well. And him and I had quite a long conversation about that. So we we will delve into that deeper. But for now, Calvin, I mean, I really just want to understand you know, what is your vision for BSV? Like, where is it going? Where is it now? Where do you want it to be in five years' time?
SPEAKER_04Let's start by talking about the concept of scaling and why scaling matters. I mean, scaling is what allows the ultimate creation of value in a network. Because without scaling, you can't create an environment where everybody can join themselves so that all people are on the same platform. The internet is a classic example. In fact, the internet is the model that the original Bitcoin protocol is aiming at. Massively scales, locked protocol, everybody's on it. That's that's what BSV is going to do. But but to do that, you need to scale. And BSV has the secret sauce for scaling. It was in the original white paper, people ignored it, and chain uh uh then Craig then decided to patent his invention and released it open source on BSV. But so these other platforms they don't even know how to scale. And if they tried to call follow BSV, which I think is almost impossible, anyways, because of the uh technical uh dead ends they've locked themselves into, but if they did, they would have to license the technology from uh N-Chain because it's patented, or or they'd have to come up with something entirely new, and clearly they can't because they're all stuck uh on not scaling. So scaling is what it's all about. Where is this gonna all end up? Um, this technology has the ability to scale to touch everything, and I I believe that you're gonna see a layer on top of the internet that that that's gonna allow you to do nano track transaction valuation of data, and then all data can be managed, organized, and valued on the meta net layer. And what it's gonna do, it's gonna change the way data is stored, and so it's gonna revel it's gonna change the cloud computing industry. Yeah, it's gonna change, it's gonna change all how people run businesses. Like, for instance, people in gaming that they actually aren't gonna need to have their own data centers anymore. So, yeah, I I think it's gonna run everything at the end of the day, it's gonna touch all our lives, and sometimes you'll know and sometimes you won't. And the money that you use, that's all going digital. We know that already. BSV scales to the extent that that countries can actually put their currency on top of BSB. It's the only platform that allows that for all currencies to be on the same platform. So this is a really amazing technology, and uh I think right now the only thing that's holding it back is just educating people on what it can do today and how different it is than anything else that's out there, and that's what my mission is, and that's what Becky's involved with now. I'm lucky enough to get her to step across onto into this new venture that I'm involved in, and uh I I think we're winning because it's a one-way street. Once people realize the power of this technology and that it's got no competitors, well, you can't unlearn that. So we're constantly finding new people that understand this, like yourself.
SPEAKER_03And and want to learn more. I mean, and that's why I wanted to bring you on the podcast is just to explain the differences because there's so much misconception around what crypto is and what blockchain is and what its functions are and how it all fits together. And really that was the crux of this conversation today was just to educate people about what is happening in the space and how it can be practically applied to real life business, because the leap from what the concept is to what it's actually going to manifest as in everyday life is still unknown, as you said, but there are so many different applications that this can touch, so many different types of businesses that this can touch, and that's really what this discussion was about today for me.
SPEAKER_04Craig said it best in 2015 when I first met him. Scaling solves all problems. At the time I didn't really realize what he meant, but in fact, I've now come to realize that all problems that every other blockchain has are solved by scaling. And the only one that scales is BSV. And that is my message that I want to get out to people. If you want to solve enterprise data problems with a public blockchain, then don't waste time on hobby platforms that don't scale, because the second you find out that your project works, the first thing you're gonna need is scaling, and you're gonna be forced to spend the money to port it over to the only one that scales, which is BSV, you might as well prototype on the one that scales. So there's my message.
SPEAKER_03If people want to go and build something, it's open source, you said. So I mean, how how how do people get involved in in BSV in the project? Where where do they go? Talk to us about that.
SPEAKER_04There's there's a number of websites where they can find out about it. Uh, bitcoinsv.io is a good place to start, bitcoinassociation.net is a good one. Um bitcoinsv.com is a good website, and of course, CoinGeek. We cover all the news. And if you go to those four sites, you'll have all the information you need to uh figure out how to get started.
SPEAKER_03And Becky, you've told me about the Bitcoin SV Academy, which I have actually started, but I haven't got very far because I only got told about it last week. But it's really, really intense and it's and it's very um well uh executed. So if anybody listening to this podcast really wants to go and have a a bit more of a deep dive, I'd I'd say start there. Um you know, Becky, you've done the course, so maybe you can talk a little bit about what it covers.
SPEAKER_01I have, and I did the course because Calvin suggested that I that I take it on uh around Christmas time. So thank you, Calvin. I was nervous, I was very nervous at first uh because I'm not a technical person. Um but I studied, I I I went through the course, made sure I understood it, and I will tell all of these listeners here on this podcast that I honestly I it was the best decision ever to do this because now when I have conversations with people about the potential of blockchain technology and Bitcoin, I understand what they're talking about, and I'm much more confident about having these kinds of conversations. And I think this is really important for the gambling industry because none of us like unfamiliar territory, and none of us like to feel stupid or uninformed, so we avoid these subjects, right? But once you understand it, you start to really understand why it's going to change our lives. Honestly, what Calvin is saying is it's so exciting what this technology can do, and now I understand why.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's true because I mean, I you know, three weeks ago I hadn't looked this closely. I mean, I knew it was there, but I wasn't looking at it as close because it doesn't touch my life right now, but it is going to touch my life, especially in the affiliate space, which is where I'm kind of living, eating, sleeping, breathing every day. So now that I know a little bit more, I can see the potential of what this technology can do and how it will change the way that we plan, execute, strategize what we do for our clients, for ourselves, in our own business. I mean, you know, there's just so many different ways that this technology is going to change digital and planning and advertising and media and communication and messaging. And these are all really important things that people listening to this podcast are interested in and need to go and have a look at. So I really just want to say thank you for coming onto the Affiliate Insider Affiliate Marketing Podcast. We spoke about blockchain and Bitcoin and BSV today, but it does have an impact on what affiliates are going to be doing and how they're going to be building their businesses to get ready to scale and exit in five or ten years' time because these things are going to be part of that business mainstream. And it also impacts the operators, the affiliate managers that are listening to this podcast. You know, they need to understand that their business models may change. The way that they um, you know, commercialize their deals for exposure, as we spoke about earlier on, is going to change and they can do all of these things and they can do it on the blockchain and on BSV's platform or protocol. If I might be using the wrong terminologies, but um I'll get there in the end.
SPEAKER_04Can I just add that can I just add that uh I actually produce a conference series on the data management uh potential and applications of this uh technology? And the next one, I I I've done them in London, New York, uh, Seoul Korea, Hong Kong. The next one's in Zurich, Switzerland, in June. And if you go to CoinGeek.com and click on the conference button, you'll get all the information. But there will be everybody that's interested in using this technology for data is gonna be there. And it will be a real eye opener, and I would recommend that people from the gaming company get their IT people and their payments people to either come to it or watch it online because we're gonna live stream it. And uh it's it's quite an eye-opener once you see what's going on in this space.
SPEAKER_03We've got that event in our events calendar as well on affiliateinsider.com. So do you make sure that you go there and register? I'm certainly going to be registering because even though I'm not in IT and development, I still want to know what's happening from a marketing perspective. And I think it's important that people listening to this podcast are gonna go and follow this story. Um, so I'd like to kind of end us off there. Thank you so much for coming and sharing this information and for making it um easy for the man in the street, the lay person like me, to understand what's going on in this protocol. Because I think you're right, Becky. I think in our industry, you know, people don't want to look stupid, they don't want to ask stupid questions. So I'm gonna ask the stupid questions for them and direct them to the places where they can go get the information if they if they're keen to know more. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today, Calvin. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you and thank you for explaining everything in such clear and easy to understand language. I'm I'm thrilled that we've had you here today.
SPEAKER_04Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02And that's a wrap for this week's affiliate insider affiliate marketing podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down in this series, head on over to Apple iTunes and give us a five-star rating and subscribe to our podcast channel so you'll never miss another entitled episode of next week for more digital marketing entitled driving for digital marketing.