Across a range of interests why the free scope control and let us help you expand your interest with a successful affiliate marketing. Visit affiliateinsiders.com and click on a to find out more.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to Affiliate Insiders Affiliate Marketing Podcast with me, Leanne Johnston. And today I'm joined by a bevy of beauties who have an amazing amount of experience in both digital and affiliate marketing. And we're going to be talking about a subject that's quite close to my heart today, which is diversity and how we actually manage that in our workplace in our lives. And hopefully, we're going to have a really interesting discussion. So joining me today, I'd like to introduce first Tina Thakorrankin, who is a legend in the iGaming industry. Tina, welcome to the podcast. Say a quick hello to our listeners and a bit of an introduction about your expertise and experience in the space.
SPEAKER_04Well, hello, and firstly, thank you so much for inviting me to be a part of what I think is going to be an incredibly interesting conversation. Thank you also for calling me a legend. I think that's the nicest thing anybody has said to me all year. And let's face it, when you've been in the industry as long as we have, people are very creative with their ways of describing you.
SPEAKER_03That's true. So tell us a little bit about your background. So if people that haven't heard you or met you before, um, how did you get into the iGaming industry and um how where are you today? Like tell us a little bit about your your backstory.
SPEAKER_04Okay, well, I'm old, which means I've been around for a long time. So this can either be quick and engaging or very long and very dull. So let's go for the quick and engaging. Um, like most people, I suspect, I got into the industry by accident. There are very few people out there who wake up one morning and go, that looks interesting as a career choice. That's what I'm gonna do. Um, so I actually started off uh working for a company called William Hill just part-time as a student. Realized um actually somebody, some idiot company was willing to pay me to sit there and watch football. So uh decided I would explore this particular sector a little bit more because it's not often you get a chance to match your interests with a career opportunity. Um decided, I realized actually I was quite good at this betting malarkey, decided to give it a go properly, and without kind of being too dull and dreary, the interesting stuff that I think I've done is I was probably one of the first female traders in the industry. That was back in the 90s. Um, I was general manager at a company called Blue Square, who developed something called OpenBet. Um, I was ops director at the Tote, which was kind of full-on traditional horse racing. And my last gameful employment, I headed up operations and was getting involved with compliance and the risk side of the business at a company called Virgin Games. The last few years I've worked independently, and I kind of continue to work within the industry across a whole range of things with operators and regulators. But I think probably the most interesting part of what I do currently for this conversation and my relationship with you is together with Kelly Keene, we are both co-founders of something called the All-in Diversity Project, which sounds like good works and um you know ethics and doing the right thing, which of course it is. It's about encouraging workplaces to be more diverse and inclusive. And it is the right thing to do, but as we've talked about previously, Leanne, all in is not about let's do this because it's the right thing to do. We are very much about the business case for diversity, and I think I I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I think you are probably one of the people within the affiliate landscape who probably gets it better than most.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, I appreciate that. Um, I'm very passionate about this. Thank you very much for sharing your story with our listeners as well, just to give some backstory about why we're all here today. I'm gonna move on to the Queen of Gambling, as she has been uh mentioned many times before on my LinkedIn channel, Miss Sarafina Waldegabriel from Income Access and Paysafe Group. Over to you, Serafina. Tell us a little bit about your backstory.
SPEAKER_05I think you're completely misguided with that introduction, young lady. You've got the wrong number. Um, um, hello everyone. It's lovely to be here. Thank you for having me here. Um, it's it's an honor and a privilege, uh, as as Christina just said. And uh my background is really um I'm marketing through and through. I'm passionate about marketing and football. Those are the two things I'm very passionate about. And um, I joined um this lovely company called Ecom Access, better known as Income Access, uh, back in 2004, um, straight after finishing school and traveling around and you know, just being a bum and then being told go and do some work. So here there I joined, and I joined as an affiliate marketer, and I was like, what is affiliate marketing? And lo and behold, we got to know lots of people through this journey, and the company grew and flourished, and obviously got acquired by Paysafe along the journey, and I am still friends with the affiliates I built a relationship with back in 2004. So that is what it shows that affiliate marketing has its you know capacity to really build some fantastic relationships, just as long, you know, known you just as longly. So um, and uh and yeah, and it just keeps you never have the same date twice, so that's why it's so exciting and it's always changing and evolving and you know, diversifying and in many ways. And obviously in our context, it's so lovely to see how many more um senior female leaders we have seen in our industry over the years where you could literally go to an event and count in one hand how many females were there now. You know, it's just you everywhere you turn, there is a very um significant and very well-deserved leader. Um, you know, that's female. So that's great. And like you said, you know, Christine, it's not something that we obviously consciously say, you know, it's not a numbers game, it's just something that has to happen and it has to evolve as we evolve as a society and as humans. So yeah, so this is great, and I'm I'm just honored to be with such great company.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much, and we're really, really glad to have you on the podcast today. And my last guest is somebody that's very dear to me and who also works very closely alongside me, Liana Klein, who's the head of agency services for our group, Affiliate Insider.
SPEAKER_00Hi Liana, how are you? I'm good, thanks. Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_03So today I've invited you here because you joined the affiliate industry um kind of in the middle of the boom, really, um, about 10-15 years ago. Um, and you've worked alongside both me and Sarafina and you know, several several big companies such as Paysafe. Um, and your experience as well is is super important because you're kind of like the next generation of digital marketers that have come through the ranks and are now leading a team in in a senior position within my company. So, welcome and thank you very much for being here. Tell us a little bit about your background and then we'll get started on some of the questions that we have today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. So I started in the iGaming industry doing customer support and service for a payments company, and I moved over to affiliate marketing to that team in 2011. And for the past three years, as you said, I've been working with you at Affiliate Insider managing the agency side of the business. So it's been quite interesting because there's a lot of different types of affiliate programs that I get to work on, giving me a huge range of um insight into how each different vertical works. So it's been great.
SPEAKER_03Right. So I think where do we start with this conversation? Because it's quite a big conversation to have. But I think the first question that I want to pose to you ladies, and and Tina, I'm probably gonna come to you first. Why do you think that there has been a lack of diversity in, you know, both the affiliate sector and the iGaming industry in particular? Um, and being one of the longest serving members of our group today, I thought I'd I'd kickstart the podcast conversation with that question to you.
SPEAKER_04My God, you're such a diplomat. Normally I get old, but thank you for that. Um, that's an interesting question, and I think part of the reason um touches perhaps uh a little bit on what Serafina said. The gambling industry, and indeed the affiliate sector, is not a sector that operates in a vacuum or a bubble. The people who operate in that sector are a reflection of and react to the wider society around them. So I think, in part, pretty much every industry in the world is a little bit behind the times in terms of DNI because society takes a little bit of time to change. I think in the case of the world of betting gambling and also perhaps affiliates, which is a relatively, you know, it's a it's relatively young when you look at traditional marketing and the history of. So I think history plays into it a little bit. You know, the the first kind of products which went out into the digital gambling space were things like poker, sports betting, a little bit of casino, but traditionally the masculine products, and those were organizations set up by men who were pretty much hiring the people around them who looked and thought and behaved like them. A little bit of the old boys' network, if you will, from a kind of traditional bricks and mortar industry being replicated in the digital age. I think a couple of other things which are perhaps um fed into it for this industry is geography as well. When you look at the markets where online has evolved when it comes to betting and gambling, it's been very much in the West. And of course, the other thing is culture, and it'd be great to think you know, to see what the other ladies on the call think and yourself, because gambling still to this day is a very divisive subject. I still work with people from the younger generation who don't want to tell their family and friends they work for a gambling company, instead, they will say they work in affiliates or marketing or IT.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's very, very true. Um, in terms of kind of where we've come from and where we're going to, I think I agree with what Serafina said. Um, you know, 15-20 years ago when we all entered one and were actively working in this space, you could count on your one hand the number of females that were at you know massive conferences and expos and events, and especially in senior positions. Um, and slowly over time we've seen more and more doors open. I mean, I you know, I've had some fantastic mentors in the eye gaming space, and this actually brings us on to our next question, where we talk about you know, why should young digital marketers consider affiliate marketing and eye gaming as a career choice and and the experience and expertise that we've all experienced, having been in this industry for more than you know, for decades, what can you share with us some of the stories that you've had individually? And and maybe I go through to you know Serafina first and then Liana, um, of some of the good experiences and career um you know uh things that have happened to you in your career that have really kind of you know opened doors for you or given you opportunities and where you have maybe opened doors and given opportunities to others to step up behind you. So maybe if I go to Serafina first, um, you know, and uh I know we also talk a lot about imposter syndrome happening um in in the workplace, and and you know, females tend to suffer from that a lot more um just by you know by our makeup. Um but what what do you think has been like a really great story that you can share with our listeners from your kind of career?
SPEAKER_05I think um I would say I I was really lucky that um e com access was founded and run by a a lady. She, you know, Nikki Fenad, which I'm sure most of the listeners may or may not know of, but so Nikki um obviously being female, um she she basically was a pioneer in this because she she she conducted herself with with high authority in a domain that you know all her peers, you look at all the CEOs of the companies, with the exception of maybe party, uh party gaming. There there was no other female CEO at that time. So um, not that I knew of anyway, but you know, all that to say she was one of the just unique on her own. And just the way she conducted herself, the way she did business, it was very relationship-oriented, it was never judgmental, it was never and that in itself was such a great environment to be in and to learn and to grow and to to to just see how it's done, um, without necessarily going, oh, I'm the only female. And it's almost like when we went to conferences, we had, you know, maybe two, three females because that's the nature of what we were doing at that time, and our team ended up being more female-oriented than male-oriented. Um, I think just by chance we did it the other way around. So it it it's almost like our presence became that female presence when we went to events so much so that people used to go, oh, it's the female company here again. And so that was a great influence, number one, because it was a good place to be in. And I had a great um leader or mentor to to reach out to and to follow up and and to learn from. Um, but the other thing I wanted to say about the point, the question before is you know, it's it's kind of like Tina said, it's society, right? If you look at sports, it's very male dominated. It's only in the last you know, 15, 20 years, probably I would say, where female sports is highly being encouraged if you look at football. But even then, if we look at it today, how much female football is on television? How much coverage does it actually get?
SPEAKER_03Or sponsorship for that matter. I mean, most female footballers are still working every day, you know.
SPEAKER_05So when the exposure is not there and you're a young, aspiring um girl that's passionate about football, you want to find leaders that you can look up to, it's not so easy. So I I guess in my context, I was very lucky because I had Nikki as as a leader that I could aspire to be. Because I remember when she said to me, Where do you want to be in five years' time the day I met her? And I said, In your chair.
SPEAKER_03In five years.
SPEAKER_05And she didn't let me forget that. She always reminded me, you know, remember when you said this? So that is is is is really um what I always say is it's always good to find somebody that you can aspire to, that you can see as a very good leader that you can learn from and give you confidence. And I'm not necessarily saying that all females should have a female mentor, hard, you know, complete opposite. I just think you know, a mentor is somebody that's going to help you grow and develop in the areas and help you build your career in the the way you want to. So you take the positives, but if you're going to look for, you know, some kind of uh somebody that looks like you, then it's always good to have that. It's an asset if you have it close by.
SPEAKER_03And what about you, Liana? What what were some of your best experiences working in this industry over the last 15 years?
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, when it comes to working in affiliate marketing, I think that there's so many different skills that fit into this role. And so um, you know, the great part about it for me is that I can broaden my skill set and still use what I'm strong at. Whether you're really analytical and you achieve your results by focusing like on optimization of campaigns, or whether you're more skilled in sales and negotiation, um, you really can fit your skill set into the role and then broaden your skill set from there. So, you know, the great experience for me joining affiliate marketing is that um I was able to take what I already knew and then and then grow grow outward from there. Um, I also joined a team which was very um he female heavy when I joined the affiliate team. But prior to that I had some really great um mentors, as uh Serafina was saying, who were male managers as well. So I guess I've been really lucky because I've had those who have been able to push me outside of my comfort zone and help me with that growth that I really wanted to achieve.
SPEAKER_03And I think that's I can second that. I mean, I've had some fantastic mentors along the way that brought me to where I am today, running my own business. So I think in our industry, one thing I can say that is positive for anybody that's listening and interested in getting into affiliate marketing or you know, looking at the eye gaming industry as a as a career choice is that there are many people in our industry that hold doors open for others. There's a lot of um learnings to be had, especially from kind of older members of your community, and and we are always willing to share and to to help people grow and learn because we understand the value of passing this valuable knowledge that we've amassed through doing every single day on to the next generation of affiliate marketers and and digital marketers, so that they can make the right choices and decisions as we go forward and continue to learn. So I totally agree with all of you in that in that sense that you know we've all been very lucky to be well mentored. Um, and affiliate marketing as a career choice, which you said, Liana, is incredibly diverse. Like you, you know, it it requires so many different types of skill sets that it is actually a channel that is open to anybody, no matter whether you're male, female, um, you know, if you have disabilities or you know anything. You know, there's there's in in the world of affiliate marketing, there are plenty of different jobs within this channel alone that can cater to any skill set, whether it's customer service, whether it's sales, whether it's relationship management, whether it's analytical, there are so many different types of jobs that go into the affiliate marketing channel that it really is an exciting place to think about starting a career. And the projection, as you know, Serafina has shown, you know, she started at an affiliate uh tech company. Um, she's now vice president of marketing and strategy for a uh you know an affiliate marketing company. So just because you're an affiliate manager doesn't mean that you can't hit the CMO level. Um, just by you know learning the diverse skill set that you need to have within affiliate marketing as a whole. I want to move on a little bit, um, and thank you very much for sharing all of your experiences, but I wanna I wanna talk a little bit more about how we as as individuals can help encourage more diversity in our workplace and what are some of the things that companies and brands um can do to spearhead that growth and development across our industry. And Tina, I'm gonna throw that one at you if I may.
SPEAKER_04You you you certainly may, um, and I I think part of the answer we just heard, and that is simply one of the easiest and quickest ways is to through kind of intelligent and careful representation and selection of ambassadors role models, and I'm just listening to you, to Serafina, and also to somebody who I think is very modest about their background and their work with you, and in doing that is is I think missing the fact that actually you two together are a very, very strong visual representation of what this industry could be. You're a representation of female success in an industry, and and not just success, but actually what you've brought is a new way of thinking within the affiliate space. Before you appeared, before Nikki appeared, affiliates had been done in one way, and it was so mean too. You bring in a couple of women and you end up with income access, you end up with affiliate insider. You're living proof, and the fact that you're having these conversations and you're doing them from a place of not DI is the right thing to do, but actually, commercially and strategically, it is a smart thing to do. That's what makes a difference, and I think you know, because of that, we're now starting to have that conversation, and people are starting to realize that actually, if you want a USP, you need to think differently, and the only way you're going to do that is if you kind of shake up the people you have within your business. And if people want to see how they make affiliates a success, actually look at two of the leading women in that space.
SPEAKER_03And I mean, we don't want to, you know, ever since this isn't a male-female thing, or you know, it's not a gender thing, it's about personalities and experienced people stepping forward to have these open conversations to encourage those that around us, you know, for a long time, our industry, because of the competitive nature in which we work, like it's a highly charged industry, we haven't opened doors to um, you know, talk about things that happen behind those closed doors inside the companies that run, you know, all of these exciting brands. Um, and I think having open conversations like this where we get experienced people on a panel as we are today to talk about their experiences as they've come up the ranks is part of that conversation. And it's part of it's part of that change in society. It's everybody's individual story collectively together that changes the process moving forward. So, as individuals, what are some of the things that you're seeing, you know, out of the work that you're doing in all in diversity? And and you know, Serafina, I know Paysafe Group has, you know, a lot of um culture based around you know diversity and inclusion as well. What are some of the things that your respective um companies and and charitable organizations are doing to help people understand that this is about the individual contribution and not just what is my company doing, but what are you doing as a person to be inclusive and to encourage diversity in your team?
SPEAKER_04Well, I think the first thing is understanding the commercial value of individuals who think differently, and that's by highlighting the individuals who are adding additional value because they bring a difference. It's a competitive industry, so the first thing is to champion those individuals. Now, sometimes that's putting people outside of their comfort zone, and you're absolutely right, difference is not just a gender thing, it's just not the same as what we've got. It's recognizing that each individual has something to bring, and actually, if you encourage them to think the way that they would naturally think outside the workplace, bring it into the workplace, what you will end up doing is having a core product that actually will then resonate and engage with a much wider audience. And and by by that, if you look at the world of affiliates, you've got one or two affiliates who have their core products, and that's what they look at. Then you have those affiliates who have a slightly diverse workforce. You know, Katina Media is one of them. You bring in all these individuals who think differently, and you allow them the freedom to actually explore that individuality, and then what you do is say that person made a difference by being them. Which is not quite answering the question because I think what you're asking is what can individuals do, but I think individuals who are leaders they can put the spotlight on the individuals within their businesses who are, by being different and thinking differently, adding value. And once you start to celebrate difference, you start to push that conversation out, and different stops being that's not we used to do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Let's do more of it. I think that culture I actually picked up working, you know, with Nikki when I was working at Paysafe, and we we kind of um managed the takeover of income access and merged the two company cultures together. And Serafina, you and I worked on that quite hard together before before I left to start affiliate insider. But as leaders, we need to embrace diversity. And Liana, you've just had an experience of this in your own team where you know we've hired somebody new that's come into the business, and you know, their job is X, but they've had a look at everything that we do in YouTube as Y, and given us amazing feedback on what we need to do simply because they come from a different generation. But um, you know, the thing is leaders need to recognize the voice, the individual voices, but the individuals also need to be given the security and the comfort knowing that their voices are going to be heard. That even though they are only uh brought into a company to do a certain job, that their ideas, their cultural differences, their uh you know motivations, their vision for their future and what it is that they can contribute to the company, all of those things need to be heard. Um, so what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean absolutely I agree. Um, you know, especially when you get in a new a new individual onto your team, you might not actually know where their secret weapons lie. So being open to listening to their ideas and really allowing them the room to feed back to you on what you're currently doing and not being stuck in your own ways, um I think that really helps. And I think it it brings the team together, it allows for personal growth, it uh removes any of the biases that you might have when thinking, because we all have those, right? Um we all come from different cultures, different family situations, backgrounds, whatever. And when you recognize that okay, I thought maybe this person was suited for this, but I'm completely wrong, you realize that you had an unconscious bias, and if you can just um pinpoint that and remove it, your team really does flourish that way. So I agree, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Fina, what about you? Because I mean, you have worked across multiple different global organizations and teams in different countries and different time zones. How how can you see change happening in individuals in in your business?
SPEAKER_05Um, well, I mean, you've all said such fantastic uh comments. Um, I think the only thing I would add is first to enforce what um Tina said about celebrating. You've got to celebrate diversity, you got to celebrate what's different about you know others and and and embrace it because it just enriches your life when you meet somebody that's completely different from you. Um so to me, I think I uh one of the biggest advantages I've had in my life is you know, thankfully, through my wonderful parents, uh, we've traveled a lot. And so even as kids, we've grown up and lived in different countries. And so, you know, I find the most difficult question somebody asks me is where's home? Because home is where I am right now because I've moved around, but just that has allowed me to pick up so much. Now, in today's world, you don't need to travel that much because a lot of our societies and communities are quite diverse, right? So it it helps if you've got that, but only if you're open to it. Now you might have very you know culturally rich people around you and you just don't pay attention to it, then you know it's it's your lost, really. So that's the first thing. The second thing is in in a business context, it's it's really, you know, we have to lead by example, right? So it's it's one thing for us to say what say something, but if we don't practice what we preach, then you know if we're not opening up the doors that were like it was open to us, and we're not applying the same level of self-management to be the best you can be, so somebody else can say, Oh, I like the way they've done it, um, and aspire to to emulate or to try and and be the best they could be, then we're failing, right? So it starts with ourselves. Um at PaySafe, we're also very fortunate, like you said, they've got a very rich DN DNY, uh, DNI program um across the business. Um, and as and like you guys both said, you know, diversity is not just about gender, it's it's culture, it's uh it's sex, it's it's so many things, right? So embracing it all and being you know open to to knowing um or having ambassadors or mentors that are different from you so you can learn from it is a very enriching um step that one could take. So I would say that probably those are the two things the celebrating, and obviously you have to lead by example.
SPEAKER_03Totally agree with that. Um, and you have always been a fantastic, shining example of someone who opens doors for others because you opened doors for me in this industry, and now I'm running my own business. So I want to thank you for being there for me. Um, and you know you did all the hard work, young lady. Yeah, I mean, it look, let's all raise our hands and say we've all worked in this industry for two decades. It isn't an easy ride, it's an incredibly difficult and and challenging industry to work in, but um, there's a lot of positive benefits being in this industry too. There's a lot to learn. Um, it's a fast uh-driven industry where digital is being pushed to the limit daily in terms of things that we do and try and track and um you know deliver for our clients. Um, and you know, I think that's the one thing that I actually want our listeners to take away is understand that there's uh there's a culture of, and and I read this quote, I can't remember who said it, but a rising tide raises all ships, and that's really how I have felt working in this industry for the last two decades, is that anybody that I've encountered in this space has always been willing to share knowledge, open doors, make introductions. I think that's the one thing that the affiliate industry does incredibly well is they connect people. Um and you know, the thing is just to encourage the next generation of digital marketers to use their voice, say, you know, share their ideas and don't be afraid to step forward to be heard. Because whilst you might think that you don't have a voice, everybody does. And if you're working in an organ in an organization that values its people, having that voice and sharing those insights can be you know incredible for your business growth. So as a final point to close off this discussion, because we've kind of talked around a lot of different points, I want each of you to just share with our audience one takeaway that you've had from your experience working in this industry that you want to leave others with on a positive note. Because I want I want people who are listening to this podcast to go, yeah, like this is something that I could do, or this is this is an industry that I could go and research or get involved in. What's the one positive thing that each of you have experienced working in this industry over the last couple of decades that we can leave our audience with that makes them feel empowered and excited to be part of it? And I'll start with Tina, because you've been around for the longest.
SPEAKER_04Um I I would say something I have done, and actually something you two have both done. Follow your dream. Absolutely. If you have a passion, follow it because this industry, more than any other in my experience, supports innovation, startups, and a different way of thinking than any other industry.
SPEAKER_03100% agree with that, and amen. That's all I'm gonna say. Fina, what about you?
SPEAKER_05Is don't be afraid to fail. Keep at it, and if you set the bar high, you will get to it. And if you fall along the way, that's okay. Just pick yourself up and keep going.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, 100% agree with that. So dust yourself off, pick yourself up, and keep going. And Liana, what about you?
SPEAKER_00Um, I would say try everything. Um, you will be pushed outside of your comfort zone. Um, as Serafina said, don't be afraid to fail when it happens, but try everything because you never know what you're going to actually be good at. Um, you might surprise yourself. I think that's really positive.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. My final word on this is find a mentor, find somebody that you can connect with, that you can go to for counsel, that you that can open doors for you, um, and don't be afraid to make contact. You know, myself, uh, Tina, Liana, Serafina, you know, if you had to, if you're lucky enough to find our email addresses and contact us, we will get back to you. Like nobody's untouchable in this industry. So, and I think that's something that's really exciting is that you can talk to anybody in this industry, so you know, so long as it's um, you know, professional, you're courteous, you're um, you know, appreciative of their time, people will give it. So I'd like to thank each and every one of you for coming on this podcast today. It has been amazing having this much experience on one podcast chat um and to really get an insider view of what it's been like to work in this industry for the last couple of decades. So thank you all for joining me on this podcast. And um I'm really looking forward to seeing you all again in person soon.
SPEAKER_01And that's a wrap for this week's affiliate insider affiliate marketing podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down in the series, head on over to Apple iTunes and give us a five-star rating or and subscribe to our podcast channel so you'll never miss another entitled episode of more next week or more digital marketing entitled.