Welcome back to Affiliate Insider. My name's Jeff. I produced the Affiliate Insider Podcast, and this is a special episode called Behind the Mic. In this episode of Affiliate Insiders Affiliate Marketing Podcast, we're placing your host on the hot seat to delve a bit deeper into why Leanne is as passionate about affiliate marketing and partnerships as she is, and what really makes her tick. We'll ask the questions she's never answered and dig deeper into the two-decade career that's brought her to where she is today as the founder of Affiliate Insider, a digital marketing agency, media, and training company designed to help brands launch, scale, and grow successful affiliate programs. So, Leanne, how does it feel to be on the other side of the mic for a change?
SPEAKER_02It feels kind of nerve-wracking, really. Um, normally I'm in the driving seat asking the questions, so a little bit excited about this part.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, I'm sure that this format will give people a bit of a different insight into how you think. And also, you know, you do a lot of the question asking, and I think it's about time that we did some.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So hit me up. Let's see what we get under the bonnet of today.
SPEAKER_01Well, first of all, I want to go back in time to the beginning of your story. Tell us how you originally got into affiliate marketing and why you've stayed firmly in the A-lane when it comes to digital marketing.
SPEAKER_02So it's a quite a good question to begin with, because I suppose it'll take us back to the very beginning. So round about 20 odd years ago, when the internet was so new and exciting and shiny, I started getting a little bit interested in the fact that it delivered immediate returns. So one of the things that I hated about traditional marketing was you kind of, you know, did campaigns or you did advertising briefs, but you never really could tell how well they were performing because there wasn't tracking like there is on the internet. You know, everything's trackable and it all happens in real time. So I started getting quite interested in online media because I wanted to know whether the messages that I was pushing out for the brands that I was working with back then, it was finance, which wasn't exactly all that exciting. I wanted to know whether people were actually engaging with the messages that we were pushing out. And that is something that the internet actually gave you. So I started out working as a media buyer, basically chucked in my job as the head of marketing for a big financial services company um back in South Africa. Uh, then decided to restart my career as a junior media planner and buyer for an agency and had to go back and learn the ropes all over again and literally started my career um, you know, in my mid-20s and thought, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get in and I'm gonna have a look at all of this stuff and I'm gonna really understand what it was. For me, it was really a timing thing, and also because I had very little patience. So, you know, and that's the one thing about digital marketing that's great is once you push a campaign out there, you can almost tell immediately whether it's actually going to work within sort of like 48 hours. And that was really the main attraction for me at the start was to get to grips with this new channel of communicating, this new kind of medium that everybody was looking at and really figure out whether the messages that my company was pushing out into the marketplace was working. And so I started out as a media buyer and planner, and it was a really, really interesting thing. Like within the first three months, I was absolutely hooked. So I loved the fact that, you know, the messaging, the psychology behind media buying, everything that went into online marketing just absolutely amazed me. And I think it was also timing. You know, we were at the dawn of the internet era, it was all very exciting. We were learning everything as we were going along. There was no preconceived ideas about how campaigns should be run. You know, there was like the basics of tracking, and that was pretty much it. So I felt excited being in that industry and I felt excited learning about what was happening. And really it was something that everybody around me was learning at the same time, too. So there were very few people that were experts in that field way back then because we were all just learning as we are still today. And I believe that hasn't really changed. But from that media buying background, I sort of moved over and slowly, about four or five years later, you know, affiliate marketing or performance-based marketing started to come into play. And what I really loved in that part was the building of the relationship. So really understanding who your publisher was, how they were driving traffic, you know, building that relationship with them so that you could build loyalty in your brand and actually start uh relationship managing them. And the diversity that affiliate marketing gave me from just straight up media planning and buying really, really interested me because I I love dealing with people. I love understanding how people are getting into online and how they're running their businesses as well. And so affiliate marketing really got me hooked because it fulfilled all the things that I really, truly love as a human. And I got to do that as part of my job.
SPEAKER_01So, what made you take this leap from corporate to entrepreneur? Was the timing significant? And why did you choose affiliate insider specifically?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so that's also a really good story. So 20 years on from working in affiliate marketing, I had worked across multiple different channels, across agency side, network side, client side, affiliate side. And it got to the point where I just thought, I've got so much information to share with others. And there are new brands, new countries, new verticals opening up all the time. And what I wanted to do was really teach. So I left my corporate role as vice president of marketing in the payments industry and started affiliate insider because I really do have a passion to teach. And hopefully, you know, that's what we do. We're building a community of people that are engaged in learning how to use the performance marketing industry to build their brands and to drive consistent sales. And that's ultimately what we do at Affiliate Insider. It's about educating, about sharing knowledge, about bringing experts together and about helping brands to understand how they can harness the power of performance marketing, which is what I've literally seen working in this industry for 20 years across multiple different verticals. So I really want to share now. I want to share all of those learnings that I've gathered and help other brands to build successful affiliate programs too.
SPEAKER_01That's very powerful, you know. With that love for teaching, definitely has come this understanding of what to do, what not to do, and how to get that across to people.
SPEAKER_02It is. And also the thing that's important about affiliate marketing is that everybody's still learning it on the fly. There is no school of affiliate marketing, to my knowledge. You know, there are people out there that are training and teaching and supporting and mentoring, but there is no kind of degree in affiliate marketing. So everybody is learning this performance marketing channel on the fly through trial and error, you know, and these experiences, these life experiences are what's actually feeding back into the kind of next generation of digital marketers that are coming through. So to me, it's incredibly important that those of us that have a lot of experience and have had these trials and tribulations of making mistakes, running other people's budgets, you know, learning from those mistakes and then figuring out what is working, that we actually have platforms to share that and to actually bring the next generation of digital marketers, you know, the graduates that are coming out of university right now up to speed as quickly as possible in terms of why we do things the way that we do, because the industry was a very different place 20 years ago. And the methodologies and the marketing practices and principles that we used to use in the past, they are all changing and they're still changing because the industry is moving forward, you know, the way that we track, we're now talking about blockchain and all sorts of other things that are coming into the industry and changing the way that we communicate with customers online. Even the channels that we use to communicate with customers online. You know, 20 years ago we didn't have apps. There was no smartphones. So all of these things are really, really important. And there needs to be somebody curating it. And that's kind of the position that I wanted to build for myself with Avilliard Insider.
SPEAKER_01That is a very admirable avenue to go down to try and change the world in the way that you want it to be changed. And that really leads me into my next question. It's a bit of a two-parter, so bear with me. What are some of the fundamental problems or myths that you see around assumptions that are still associated with affiliate marketing? That's part one. And part two is how are you working to change that for yourself and for other brands to benefit from this new enlightened scenario?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's a really good question, actually. So affiliate marketing has had a bit of a bad rap for anybody that's kind of new into the industry. Back in the old days, it was a little bit kind of black hat, you know, there was a lot of things being tried, maybe you know, loopholes being made. And affiliate marketing really had a kind of dirty reputation associated to it, which was really unkind because as one of the kind of fastest growing industries, performance marketing is certainly outstripping, you know, paid digital and other digital marketing channels. So I think the fact that it's come from, you know, a place of innovation, which meant that lots of things were tried by lots of different people in lots of different ways, I think that's kind of spurred on the learnings. So the biggest myth that I think we need to dispel nowadays is that, you know, affiliate marketing isn't important, that it is dangerous because it's not. It's um very well regulated now. You know, we've come a long way in terms of what we can and can't track. Uh, we have uh, you know, programs that have strict terms in place of how publishers can work with them. So it's really, really well managed. We've got data technology platforms that allow you to run programs um, you know, concurrently against other digital channels as well. So I think myth number one for me is you know, affiliate marketing isn't right for every business. As far as I'm concerned, it's right for every single business that that exists in the world and and deals with customers. The second thing, the second myth, if if I can kind of throw this one in there, is that if you launch an affiliate program, affiliates are going to come. That's just really not the truth. There is such a massive marketplace out there. Publishers are sometimes working with upwards of 50 different partners. So as an affiliate manager, you can't just set up a program and expect thousands of people to come and knock on your door to join it. You have to be actively marketing your program and investing in it for the long term because where you actually see affiliate marketing and affiliate programs coming into their own is over a period of six to nine months where you've built that relationship management, you've built that trust, you've marketed your program actively, you've done the sales outreach. And that's when it starts to actually come into its own and start to complement some of the other digital channels that you're doing. So I guess making sure that you're launching an affiliate program for the right reason and with the right strategy behind it is super important for it to be successful. And those are the two myths that I would probably talk through. And in terms of changing the narrative, I think anybody that has come into the industry and has been working in the industry for a while has a responsibility to change that narrative through their deeds and thoughts and content that they're sharing. So talk more with your teams about what's right, what's wrong, what best practices are. Uh, support companies like mine that are actually doing the curation of content and doing the teaching. You know, make sure that your teams are supported to actually get knowledge, share, and learnings. Um, and one of the biggest things that we can do right now, especially because we can't attend live events anymore, which is where kind of the knowledge and the learnings are coming from, is attend more virtual events. You know, go network, go meet with people, go talk to people that are working in different industries to yours so that you can learn what's what's happening and what's changing in in the marketplace around you. Continue to be inquisitive about how this channel is changing and what the new future trends are.
SPEAKER_01How do you do that though? How do you continue to learn and stay at the forefront of this industry?
SPEAKER_02It's about reading. A lot of my staff actually asked me this question. How do you know what the future trends are going to be? Well, it's a little bit like reading the markets. You know, it's like a trader, a trader is immersed in the news, they're immersed in what's happening in the market and understanding the knock-on effects of those things happening. So, for example, you know, Facebook and Google have changed their privacy policies. What is the knock-on effect to that for digital marketers? How is it going to increase, but you know, how's it going to change budgets? Where are you going to have to realign your strategies in order to make up for the deficit that this is going to impact? It's a really huge conversation that's happening right now. So to be ahead of what's happening in the marketplace, you really do need to be a consumer of information. You need to be reading digital publications and, you know, mainstream marketing publications and actually understanding what the impact of decision-making processes are, understand the economic environment that you're working in and understand the industries that you're working in as well. So you have to want to be self-educated or you have to have the discipline to self-educate yourself, but you also need to have the passion for the actual channel to want to actually go and learn what's happening all the time. Because to be a really good affiliate manager or to be a very good affiliate marketer or strategist, you need to be an eternal student. Like I am still learning 20 years on after being in this industry, what works and what doesn't in terms of building successful partnerships and successful relationships. And you learn through doing. So keeping active, making sure that you're, you know, networking with people, finding a mentor even of somebody else who's maybe got five, 10 years more experience than you. So I'm a big believer in kind of helping the next generation forward. And this is kind of what we are doing here at Affiliate Insider. We're wanting to bring people together to actually learn and share and grow their businesses with performance marketing.
SPEAKER_01Makes a lot of sense to me. It sounds to me like that's going to be both tricky and immediately groundbreaking because of how young affiliate marketing is compared to traditional marketing channels.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, and I think that's the part that excites me still is that 20 years on, uh, you know, I'm still learning. It's it's kind of different. I always compare it to like if you wanted to become a doctor, you know, you'd spend seven years learning everything about the human anatomy, but the human anatomy is never going to change. You know, so whilst you might get new diseases or what or viruses or whatever that comes in, there's the, you know, like the baseline anatomy of a human body is always going to be the same unless we obviously evolve. But in affiliate marketing, everything is constantly changing all the time. So I kind of say you need to have a little bit of attention deficit because you need to be looking around all the time and learning what's new and happening and changing in order to implement that for, you know, your company or your client or your brand or whichever side of the ecosystem you're working in right now. So yeah, constantly learning and constantly evolving with change is two prerequisites for this role.
SPEAKER_01So continuing on that line of prerequisites, would you say that someone with a natural flair for sales would be a good candidate to specialize in affiliate marketing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, we, you know, when we're hiring people into our affiliate team in our agency, we're looking for a natural aptitude first because everything else can actually be taught. You know, ideally, most people come into this industry either from a sales background or from a customer service background, where they're used to actually supporting people and giving them good service. Either of those two skill sets are great, but you need to also have an understanding of digital marketing. So you need to want to be interested in how things track, how things evolve, you know, what digital marketing is, how the internet works, how social media channels work. Because the really complex thing about affiliate marketing today is that there are so many different types of publishers that you are going to be working with. Today you might be doing a deal with somebody who's got a really great influencer community. Tomorrow you might be having to have a commercial conversation with somebody who is a vlogger, for example, on YouTube. The next day you might be having a conversation with an affiliate that does pay-per-click advertising. You need to understand the source of all of that traffic and how to monetize it and also how to make it effective for your clients. So it's product price, place, and position. Like you need to know the basic fundamentals of marketing, but then coming in with a really good aptitude for relationship building and sales is just as valuable because you require all of those skill sets in order to be a really well-rounded affiliate manager. So if you're young and you're looking to get into this industry, depending on what kind of business you go and work for, whether it's a small agency or consultancy or if you go work client side, for example, I mean, a basic entry-level degree and really good aptitude for sales and a really good personality could really get you into this industry and started in a really great career. That's that's incredibly rewarding. And, you know, I've had that career for the last 20 years. So if anybody's listening to this podcast, reach out to me on LinkedIn because I'm very happy to share insights and places where you can go and learn more things. So always happy to share that and and get new talented to this industry as well.
SPEAKER_01I hear what you're saying, Leanne. I really hope that anyone listening to this who needs your help does take you up on that and reaches out to you on LinkedIn. I want to ask you on that note. You've been busy in this industry for 20 years. What does a long-term career in affiliate marketing really look like once somebody has got their teeth into marketing and digital marketing and come to you for training? What's the future from there?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, it really depends on your aptitude and your, you know, where you land up. I mean, if you're working in an agency, you're gonna have a very different career to whether you're working client side where you're actually in-house. And if you're working in a network, there's a whole other slew of different uh job specs that you can go for. The tricky thing about this industry is that there is no standard job description. So, you know, some people are called affiliate account managers, some people are called performance managers, some people are called marketing account executives. Like there's so many different job titles in this industry. But essentially the baseline that I've seen in working in this industry as long as I have is you'll come in as an as a junior account executive, you'll manage a couple of campaigns, you then might move up to a senior account director role or account manager role where you'll actually start managing portfolios and you'll have pretty big headers in your portfolio that you'll need to maintain and grow. And then there's that whole hospitality piece as well. And then from there, you're gonna get into a strategic manager placement. So you're either gonna be directing the strategy for your program growth or you're gonna be directing a team underneath you. And then after that, you're gonna go into like probably a head of role. So we're heading up a team maybe globally, uh, working across multiple different geos, maybe having country managers in there as well, depending on how big your program is and how big the channel is. And then after that head of role, you could actually look to move kind of into a more generic marketing role depending on where you are based. So, for example, for me, I was head of an affiliate program and then I went up to vice president of digital marketing. And then, you know, after that, I could have gone to president of marketing, I could have become the company CMO. So it really does depend on what industry you're working in, whether you're working client side, agency side, network side, you know, if you're working for an affiliate even and and it's a small startup, you could you could end up getting that CMO role within the first five to seven years. So it really, it's so it's as broad as it is, long. It you know, you I think the first thing is to make a decision do you want to be in affiliates and performance marketing? And if so, where do you want to specialize? And that could be a number of places. You could like the variety of working in an agency where you work across multiple clients, or you could just want to work across one brand and and just become more like a VP or senior C level exec. But the point is, is that this is an exciting channel to work in because it is one of the fastest growing digital channels. Like I think there was only like 10% growth over COVID last year. It's the only channel that actually increased budgets compared to paid advertising and other digital channels. And it's also so varied. You know, like I said before, you're working across multiple different verticals with publishers that have traffic in lots of different channels, including mobile. So you really do get a breadth and depth of expertise from the digital space working in affiliate marketing. And I think that's probably one of the things that has excited me about being in this industry so long is that I've never had the time to get bored because I'm always constantly learning something new.
SPEAKER_01Well, from what you're saying, for you, spreading your wings and absorbing information is a constant lifestyle. Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_02It is a lifestyle. I actually say it's funny you should say that because when you come through my training, you'll you'll hear me say that affiliate marketing is not a vacation. You know, it's it's it's a lifestyle that you actually live it. And actually, if you think about life in general, and uh, I mean, people are gonna probably laugh when I say this, but absolutely everything in life revolves around affiliate marketing. If you think about when you buy your insurance, you're gonna go and compare different insurance providers, that's affiliate marketing. You know, if you're gonna refer a friend to go and buy something and you're gonna get a kickback, guess what? You're an affiliate. If you've got a social media channel and you can push some marketing messages through it, hey, you're an influencer, and guess what? That means you're you can be a publisher too. So, you know, the world has evolved where absolutely everybody can participate in some small way in affiliate marketing, whether you even realize it or not. So for me, that's exciting. You know, the whole world is a world of opportunity.
SPEAKER_01That interconnectedness is beautiful as well. You're right, that is exciting.
SPEAKER_02It is, it's just about tuning into it and understanding it. And there are many, many places on the internet, like I can think of quite a few, and and one of which I'll actually be interviewing later on in in season five of our podcast. There are so many different communities and groups and places where you can go and learn more about affiliate marketing is actually it's quite heartening because 10 years ago it was like the ugly cousin to you know SEO that nobody ever wanted to talk about. And SEO and link building and all of that kind of stuff has always been the kind of sexy part of digital marketing. And affiliates was always kind of like the thing that you spoke about quietly in the background, you know, dark rooms of coding and internets and you know, hidden people that you never got to see. And that whole myth has totally changed over the last 10 years. And it's a huge thriving community of people that are creating jobs, even. So I'm really, really passionate about this channel.
SPEAKER_01I can tell that passion really comes through. What at the moment is the biggest challenge, in your opinion, that program managers are facing? And how How can they overcome it?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so some of the biggest challenges that program managers are facing right now is probably where and how to spend their budgets because the ecosystem is now so diverse. It's not, you know, there's so many different types of affiliate publishers that are building niche communities around their product, their brand, their website, their app, whatever it is that they're doing. You know, trying to divvy up your budget is probably quite complex. And I think this is where a kind of media buying background can can often help you with that. Making sure that your affiliate program is segmented to the entire buyer awareness journey because times have changed. We no longer use affiliate marketing just for awareness. They're actually, because of the different types of affiliates that you have, you can use affiliate marketing through that entire buyer awareness journey. So making sure that you're partnering up with partners at different stages of that journey to build a cohesive program of touch points where you can meet your customer at different places all over the interweb. That's very, very important. So strategy, understanding the strategy that goes behind affiliate marketing, finding the right partners to invite into your program and really nailing that social selling outreach. I think the the most common thing that we kind of spend a lot of time on in our in our coaching programs or training programs is really helping with that sales outreach and getting behind the psychology of why would an affiliate actually care to promote you. Because sales is often outbound. It's called calling. And that's actually really not how this industry is built. So understanding, you know, how to build relationships and then upsell is sometimes something that we have to reprogram and retrain our brains. And especially saw this through the COVID period where we had no live networking, which is something that most affiliate managers rely on heavily to go build relationships, to go meet people and talk about, you know, commercial deals. So yeah, I think that's probably been one of the hardest things or one of the biggest things that most kind of young affiliate managers come to me with is how do I get affiliates to engage with me and how do I find the right affiliates for my program?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm glad they have you in their lives to ask these questions too. Let's think about this in real terms, right? If you have an extra 10K of marketing budget as a small to medium enterprise to bring in more customers, what do you spend it on and why?
SPEAKER_02I mean, honestly, I would say affiliate marketing at this point in time because the biggest beauty of working in this channel is the fact that your partners, your affiliates, are going to be helping you with brand reach, which in turn increases customer awareness. And you're only paying for the privilege when a sale happens. So if you can utilize and invest that money for the long term in building a successful affiliate program, you're gonna get much more bang for your buck than if you take 10,000 pounds and spend it on Facebook ads. If you can even spend it on Facebook ads, depending on what industry you work in, because there's a lot of rules and regulations about paid advertising. So depending on what the SME is and who they're trying to target and how they're trying to reach their end customer, I would say I would spend that 10 grand every single time in affiliate marketing, and not just because I'm an affiliate marketing manager, but because I think it's the right thing to do.
SPEAKER_01That makes a lot of sense to me, Leanne. You know, like you said, the fact that you're an affiliate marketing manager and you're recommending that that 10K budget be spent on affiliate marketing, to some people might seem a bit on the nose, a bit predictable, but it really does make sense. It seems like one of the most lucrative ways to get those clients in the door for almost any business.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it is a long-term investment. It's not something that happens overnight. So if you need immediate results, like I would strongly say speak to an expert and find out that now is the right time for your business to invest in this channel and think about why are you investing in affiliate marketing versus other digital channels? Is it because you need immediate results, in which case I would say it's a three to six month period just to launch an affiliate program and get it up and running? So always think about what is your objective before you think about what strategy should you encounter. Because the biggest thing that makes me heart sore really is when I see programs, launch affiliate programs, they spent a load of money, they've been misrepresented or miss missold what an affiliate program is and can do for them, and they leave disheartened with the channel because they were either too early or they didn't have the right strategy, or they didn't have the right resources, or they didn't have the right expectations. And anybody can make a success out of the affiliate industry as long as they approach it with the right plan, marketing plan, and strategy. And so that was another actually another reason why I launched affiliate insider was because I was tired of hearing of these stories where people go, oh, affiliates just don't work. Doesn't work for me, doesn't work for my business. There is no bad affiliate. There's only bad affiliate management. And, you know, having worked in this industry for 20 years, I've only ever seen the success of programs going from a couple of thousand dollars to millions of dollars over just a few short years because of successful affiliate strategies. So just make sure that you're getting the right advice, that you have a sound strategy in place before you even attempt to enter the channel and make sure that you're kind of like spreading your risks and working with the right partners in the right stages of that buyer awareness journey so that your affiliate program can be successful and really grow your business for you.
SPEAKER_01That's really sound advice, isn't it? I mean, getting that insider information is going to make sure that you get your success metrics. And for me, some of the best things in life take time to establish themselves, like a good wine.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I mean, you know, it doesn't take um, you know, it takes a year and a half, maybe two years to make a really good wine. So same thing for your affiliate paper.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So Leanne, last question here, but absolutely not the least of our questions. Give us the insider scoop on the woman behind the brand. Tell us one thing that we, your listeners, don't know yet, but might enjoy getting to know about you.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Okay. Well, since we're talking about wine, I'm a I'm a massive red wine drinker. If if you don't really know where my accent's from, it's um South African. So I grew up, you know, understanding the grape. So I love Armenian wine. That's my pet passion. It's absolutely amazing, it's very organic, and it's one of the best red wines that I've ever had in my life when I travel to Armenia for a business trip. So fell in love with that. But something that nobody really knows about me is that I once shared a stage with paparotti because when I was 18, I don't know. Um, everybody's got a story, you know, and that's the that's the cool thing about working in affiliate marketing. When I was 17, I re I actually represented South Africa in a song festival in um the UK in in Wales. That I'm not even gonna try and attempt to to say it because people might laugh, but I think it's you say it's something like Lang Lufflin. Um, and my pronunciation of anybody's Welsh, I really do apologize. But um, it was uh kind of like at Stadford uh for choirs, and my school represented South Africa for the first time in 1995, and that was before the internet. So you're gonna be able to look that up. But yeah, we actually sang on the stage with Pavarotti, and that was kind of like the one cool thing that I remember in my life so far, other than getting married and having my kid um and starting my business. But that's yeah, it was definitely something that I've kind of kept hidden and never really spoken about on the public stage. So if you're listening to my my podcast and you're listening to this interview, you now know me intimately well. And yeah, hopefully, if you've had a similar experience, you could share that with me on my LinkedIn too.
SPEAKER_00That is so cool. What an experience, Pavarotti, the man himself. That's incredible.
SPEAKER_02And he he really was amazing. I mean, he was at the peak of his career back then, and yeah, he was just a phenomenal singer, absolute phenomenal singer. What an artist.
SPEAKER_00What a memory. That is beautiful. My nan was a big fan. That's wonderful. Leanne, thank you so much for answering these questions. I feel like I know you a little bit better as well.
SPEAKER_01And you've really helped me to understand your world and where it fits in, you know, as a bit of a layman myself, and I thank you for that.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for putting me on the mic. It's been an absolute pleasure to be on the other side.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for tuning in to this episode Behind the Mike with Leanne Johnston, affiliate marketing legend, and your host of the Affiliate Insider Affiliate Marketing Podcast. We'll be launching season five Affiliate Marketing around the world in a couple of weeks, and look forward to sharing more insightful episodes with guests from around the globe, and it's a lot of different